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[Static 27]

I think he was referring to the instances where God killed people directly and on purpose.  You're probably familiar with these:

 

- Flooding the Earth, killing all but 8 of the entire world's population, as punishment for a variety of things

- Sending "fire & brimstone" to kill the entire populations of Sodom and Gomorrah, as punishment for their lifestyles

- Turning Lot's wife into a "pillar of salt", as punishment for curiosity and/or being annoyed that she had to leave her home forever, on short notice

- Killing the (unknown thousands) of first-born throughout Egypt, as punishment for their leader's stubbornness

- Sending two bears to kill 40 children, as punishment for making fun of a prophet's bald head

- Killing Onan because he got cold feet after God instructed him to knock up his brother's wife

 

Hmm...Old Testament morality issues...a toughie indeed.

 

Ah, I have just the book for you (starting to feel like Twilight Sparkle saying this).  The answer to every one of your observations can be found in it. It's When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe. 

 

I went ahead and looked up some of your inquiries and have provided the answers to supplement my knowledge. I didn't look up all of them, as the book is 604 pages long. 

 

-I almost didn't have to look this one up. When God flooded the earth, destroying a creation He earlier considered "very good" and then one He declares "He is sorry that He had made man on the earth," (Gen 6:6) He is obviously destroying an earth that is beyond salvation- one so evil that no man can save it. Had He left the earth it as it was, it would have been a terrible, miserable, empty, futile place. (Geisler and Howe 41)

-When God slew the firstborn of the Egyptians, he slew the firstborn of the guilty Egyptians. The Egyptian people were not in fact innocent and in fact, "a mixed multitude went up with them [the Israelites] also" (Ex 12:38). As a result, the Egyptian people knew that the God of Israel was actively judging them for enslaving His people and only the people who maintained their iron grip of oppression on the Israelites had their firstborn slain. They also could have changed Pharaoh's mind, despite his position of dictatorship via a revolution- after all, the plagues whatnot God brought upon the Egyptians made them urge "the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste" (Ex 12:33). The Egyptian people could have done something about their leader's decision, but they did not (74-75).

-(The answer to this one can be found just by reading Genesis 19). Lot's wife was transformed into a pillar of salt because she directly disobeyed God's direct order (which was delivered via two angels who spoke to Lot and his family- Genesis 19:17) not to look back at the city. No ifs ands ors or buts here- God was completely clear in His instructions and the consequences of disobeying. Curiosity and annoyance as exceptions were not in the fine print of God's orders. It's like being given the order not to look down the barrel of a loaded gun and pull the trigger but doing so out of curiosity. 

 

I could continue but, as I said, there is an answer to all of your inquiries in various Biblical commentaries and whatnot. I'd answer all of your inquiries but I'd just be paraphrasing from a book or from the scriptures. It's not that I can't answer your questions, it's just that this post is 2000 characters long right here(-) We could go on and on discussing scripture but like I said before, this is a forum about My Little Pony- not about scriptural debate and whatnot. 

 

Seriously, I'm not using an excuse to dodge your inquiries- it's rather late now and...I've given you my reasons.

 

Trust me, there are answers to all of your questions- just don't denounce Christians when you put them on the spot. Unlike Eli from the movie The Book of Eli, we don't all have the Bible memorized- and even if we did, even we might not be interpreting it correctly the first time we read it. It sometimes takes academic and historical research- after all, it was written 2000 years ago but is still accurate down to the word today. We're fallible and human.

 

Oh and one last thing- don't "Presume the Bible [or anything or anyone else] guilty until proven innocent." After all, what did the Mane Six learn after doing so to Zecora? 

 

Goodness, I never thought I'd be using examples from My Little Pony to defend my faith. 

Edited November 21, 2013 by Static

[Yellow Diamond 7,569]

I'll just carry on believing what I want to regardless of what anyone thinks. The Jefferson Bible is the one that appeals most to me.

 

It removes the made up bullshit that does nothing but brainwash already delusional people into religion itself and leaves in it the moral teachings of a man, regardless of whether or not HE was delusional, who spread a message of love and acceptance.

 

The whole Jesus as a saviour shit as well, yeah, fuck that. Sin does not exist because Jesus already accepted our sins and died... Therefore, how can sin exist? Anyhow, yolo, mainstream Christianity sucks ass.

 

#Won'tBeCheckingThisThreadAgain

 

I'd rather subject myself to DF Strauss or Rudolf Bultmann rather than the Jefferson Bible. At least those two took scholarship seriously -- as opposed to redacting the New Testament in an act of pure Enlightenment era vanity. I mean, how could you read through the New Testament and decide what should be removed without being vain? Such an decision completely misses the importance of eschatology, soteriology, and Christology (just to name a few) in the New Testament corpus.

 

It's like the story of Karl Barth, the great Swiss Reformed theologian, meeting an astronomer who said, "Dr. Barth, I'm just a humble astronomer, but I think Christianity comes down to being nice to one another." Barth replied: "Sir, I'm just a humble theologian, but I think astronomy comes down to 'twinkle, twinkle, little star.'"

 

So please -- spare me the "mainstream Christianity sucks ass" and hashtag commentary.

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

Hmm...Old Testament morality issues...a toughie indeed.

 

Seriously, I'm not using an excuse to dodge your inquiries- it's rather late now and...I've given you my reasons.

 

The instances of multiple victims/subjects makes it nearly impossible to say whether or not the Flood or Sodom & Gomorrah were justified.  After all, our modern notion of justice is focused on an individual's actions and intent, whereas the OT relied heavily on "sins of the father" and other notions of guilt that a person had no control over.  It gets muddled and speculative.  It's impossible to debate the fairness of drowning "Enoch Citizen #3947 (24 year old male; father of 6)" or the prudence of burning alive "Gomorrah citizen #446 (7 year old female; loves singing)".  The assumption is that they were all deserving of a horrific execution, with no opportunity to defend themselves (legally or physically).  It's polarizing, and relies overly much on assumptions and speculation.

 

That being said, let's take a closer look at Lot's wife.  She was a single person who was summarily executed for a single event.  What exactly is the lesson here?  Many would say that her disobedience was deserving of instant death.

 

If so...why?  What about her disobedience warranted this?  Every one of us has disobeyed God's direct commandments.  Many of us have done a lot worse than momentarily glancing over our shoulder.  Even if "looking back" was a way of saying "she resented her husband's decision to make them leave their home"...is that truly worthy of instant death?  What lesson is to be learned from this?  It certainly comes off as a "do as I say, or else I will kill you where you stand" message.  She received no warning, and had no chance to correct her behavior.  It was just...*poomf* you're dead.

 

How can this be considered just, let alone loving?

How can a modern believer reconcile this supposedly divine behavior with their own sense of fairness, proportionality and rationality?

[Static 27]

I feel that your notion of innocence is distorted. God only judges the guilty- he doesn't catch the innocent in the "splash damage."

 

If there were someone on the other side of the world from Noah that was innocent pre-flood, then there might have been two Arks, not just one. Unfortunately, that was not the case- the entire world except a few people was beyond repair and as I said earlier, had that world been allowed to continue, it would continue indefinitely to be in the state of absolute anarchy and chaos it was. Enoch citizen #3947 and Gamorrah citizen #4467 were both guilty and had indefinitely spit in the face of an attempt at reconciliation with God. If you don't think children can be evil, then read The Small Assassin by Ray Bradbury. I know, it's a total hyperbole and a bit of a poor example but children and babies in a Freudian sense are 100% Id. Unbridled, they will do everything in their power to satisfy their selfish desires, devoid of any altruistic regards. They do not learn right from wrong until it is taught to them directly or indirectly..

 

Also, concerning Lot's wife. Once again, you misunderstand the situation, the idea of innocence, and Lot's wife's fatal mistake. Lot's entire family was told not to look back at the city- or else they would die. Say someone told you "don't touch this insta-death poisonous snake or it will bite you and you will die" and then you, doubting that they actually meant that it would instantly kill you touched it out of curiosity and it bit you and you died. What's the lesson to be learned? Don't touch something that you were explicitly told would kill you instantly and expect a second chance. Death means death not, "Oops, I thought death meant hurt." Sometimes, death comes quickly without a second chance. God could have not told Lot's family to evacuate Gamorrah and let them all get destroyed with the city but He lovingly gave them an escape route, complete with instructions for survival.

 

This is just and loving in the same way a child touching a hot stove after being warned not to is just and loving. It's just because bad decisions have consequences. It's loving because the child was warned beforehand that touching the stove was harmful and because the child is being instructed by someone who knows that hot stoves mean burnt hands.

 

The child is thus guilty of his own consequential punishment. He was warned of the consequences, he committed his act, thus he gets the punishment he brought upon himself.

 

What's great about God is that He has provided everyone with unlimited second chances through the death and resurrection of His son Jesus Christ. He will heal our burnt hands as many times as we ask Him to work in us. It's a free gift. We didn't earn healing by wounding ourselves- we are healed because there is a Healer available- and He's always available- for everyone who sincerely asks the Healer for healing is healed out of grace- not merit.

 

I am a modern believer in a modern world and I have demonstrated in a cause-and-effect manner the fairness, proportionality and rationality of this divine behavior.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Static

[Koelath 445]

It would be cool to chat with like-minded people about the show!

 

What, it's not enough that we're all like-minded fans of the show? If your plan is to chat about the show, why on Earth would you use what people believe in as criteria for who to talk to?   Well, aside from being exclusionary and unwilling to associate with people who don't adhere to your beliefs...Which is literally the only reason I can think as to why one's religion would matter at all in discussions of a mutually-enjoyed animated TV show.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

Actually on the Flood, you'll see around the world stories similar to that of the Bible... where other people were saved though not in exactly the same way. So perhaps it wasn't just Noah's family that was saved.

Edited November 23, 2013 by EquestrianScholar

[HoopHoof 137]

I have a cousin named Christian

[GreyScholar 1,584]

On the Old Testament I will point out this was a different time, with different cultural viewpoints, a time before Jesus Christ ever set foot upon this earth. One thing I would actually suggest is to consider the differences and feel between the Old and New Testament. Now consider the possibility that this was because the Jehovah had not yet experienced mortal life.

 

That is all I'm going to say at this time.

Edited November 22, 2013 by EquestrianScholar

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

I feel that your notion of innocence is distorted. God only judges the guilty- he doesn't catch the innocent in the "splash damage."

 

This is just and loving in the same way a child touching a hot stove after being warned not to is just and loving. It's just because bad decisions have consequences. It's loving because the child was warned beforehand that touching the stove was harmful and because the child is being instructed by someone who knows that hot stoves mean burnt hands.

 

The child is thus guilty of his own consequential punishment. He was warned of the consequences, he committed his act, thus he gets the punishment he brought upon himself.

 

When a child touches a hot stove, it burns them. They learn not to do it, they recover from the physical damage, and they go on with their life.  In this regard, your analogy breaks down.  Would you kill somebody in an instant, as punishment for disobeying an arbitrary command?  I expect your answer would be "no" (unless you're psychotic).  How then, can you justify God executing somebody under the same circumstances?  How is it that reasonable forgiveness and second chances are expected from humans, but not from God?  If we behaved as God did, we would be reviled and distrusted.  Why is this?

Edited November 22, 2013 by NLR Information Minister

[Static 27]

What, it's not enough that we're all like-minded fans of the show? If your plan is to chat about the show, why on Earth would you use what people believe in as criteria for who to talk to?   Well, aside from being exclusionary and unwilling to associate with people who don't adhere to your beliefs...Which is literally the only reason I can think as to why one's religion would matter at all in discussions of a mutually-enjoyed animated TV show.

 

I do not believe that that was the intention of the author. Their intention was that it would be cool to chat with people of his same faith in addition to people who don't necessarily share that same faith. Otherwise, the individual would not be a part of this site discussing this show, where the possibility of the presence of other worldviews is great. Be careful in hastily labeling someone as "exclusionary and unwilling to associate with people who don't adhere to [their] beliefs." Such words are rather inconsiderate.

 

 

When a child touches a hot stove, it burns them. They learn not to do it, they recover from the physical damage, and they go on with their life.  In this regard, your analogy breaks down.  Would you kill somebody in an instant, as punishment for disobeying an arbitrary command?  I expect your answer would be "no" (unless you're psychotic).  How then, can you justify God executing somebody under the same circumstances?  How is it that reasonable forgiveness and second chances are expected from humans, but not from God?  If we behaved as God did, we would be reviled and distrusted.  Why is this?

 

Okay, so maybe the stove analogy was inexpedient when used right after the Lot incident. My snake analogy however is still very much expedient. 

I would not kill someone for disobeying a command- because I am not the one doing the killing- the snake (reusing that analogy) is doing the killing- not me. I'm not going to kill you if you touch the snake- the snake is going to kill you. The "command" in Lot's instance was more of a warning given to Lot's family to protect them. They weren't ordered not to look back- they were admonished not to look back. 

 

--------------------------

Unfortunately, due to the timing of these posts, I am not able to properly quote the second post without double-posting.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Static

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

My snake analogy however is still very much expedient. 

I would not kill someone for disobeying a command- because I am not the one doing the killing- the snake (reusing that analogy) is doing the killing- not me. I'm not going to kill you if you touch the snake- the snake is going to kill you. The "command" in Lot's instance was more of a warning given to Lot's family to protect them. They weren't ordered not to look back- they were admonished not to look back. 

 

Again, that analogy only works if you (or God) are warning against retribution from a third party (the snake).  Such a warning would only seem fair if that third party was outside of the control of the person issuing the warning and the one being warned.  But that's not what appears to have happened to Lot's wife.  She was not bitten by a snake.  There was no third party.  There was only God issuing the warning, Lot's wife disobeying the warning, and God killing her where she stood.

 

Simply put, your analogy is basically making God out to be the snake.  I doubt that was your intention, but that's how it came across.  Analogies probably aren't the best way to explore the ethical issues in question here.  So the original question remains: how do you justify God's decision to kill someone the instant they glanced over their shoulder?

[Static 27]

 So the original question remains: how do you justify God's decision to kill someone the instant they glanced over their shoulder?

 

Because He warned Lot's wife that she would die if she did. There was no room for error, no ifs ands ors or buts. Honestly, "do not look back" is a really simple request- just one request but Lot's wife failed to follow it, even after she was told it would kill her.  She had ONE final request, to test her obedience and she disobeyed. She was aware of the stakes of the situation and she still disobeyed. Guilty by her own actions, justified in her punishment.

 

This reminds me of the Fall of Adam and Eve. These two individuals had best life ever conceivable and had ONE rule- don't eat the tree from the tree in the middle of the garden. Just ONE rule. They had the most freedom mankind will ever have on this earth- and just one rule and they still broke it. Guilty.by their own actions, justified in their punishment.

[Yellow Diamond 7,569]

This is a final reminder that this thread is not meant for debates about Christianity. Asking questions, discussing a few points, and general conversation pertaining to the topic are fine -- but anything else should be carried out either in the Debate Pit or via PM.

 

If a staff member needs to give this warning again, the thread will be closed.

[Static 27]

Thank you. I was starting to wonder when that squabble would end.

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

Thank you. I was starting to wonder when that squabble would end.

 

Are you really complaining about the existence of our discussion...you know, the one where you were one of only two participants?  It was as legitimate as any other discussion in this long-running thread.  In any case, locking the thread would be the laziest possible response to a slight sidetrack in a thread like this.  Also, Spoon is hardly neutral in this discussion anyways.  Just 2 days ago he had no problem wading in to share his opinion in a different discussion in this same thread, and now he's telling us not to do the same?

 

That aside, I agree that other threads are probably better suited to more in-depth discussions.  It just seems silly to me for anyone to insist that in a thread about announcing your membership in a specific religion, we're somehow not supposed to discuss that religion.

[DashXSoarin 2]

I'm a christian brony and proud of it

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

I'm still here. I'm non-denominational and kind of a liberal Christian. 

[Stancet 689]

Might have already posted on this thread... but since I can't remember it, I'll say it again.

 

I am a Christian Brony. I was raised that way, studied the Bible, suffered many struggles in faith and even considered Christians and Bronies to be incompatible. But, I believe in both lifestyles very much and they both make me a happy, complete individual.

 

P.S. I think heaven wouldn't be complete without Bronies, so here's hoping.

[TrunksXV 33]

Catholic with a Seventh Day Adventist mind set here. The community is alive and well online at least. In the culture.....take a look at it. 

[The Leafeon Pinkeh 3,603]

Ello :DD I would be a Baptist. And a saved Christian, I should add xD 

Nice to see their are others and I'm not all alone out here on the forums and such. 

[Inactive01 5,299]

Still here. I'm a happy Presbyterian Reformed happy to share with you our Christian PMing group if you guys want to join. It's basically where a small clump of us Christians get to chat about Christian-related matters and pray for each other when needed for support

[Moved to Elsewhere 11,331]

I was raised and baptized as a protestant christian. I don't go around preaching christian messages to people since I know people will find that annoying so I'm not really strong on the religion I'm just very light.

[TrunksXV 33]

The thing is street preaching isn't everyone's forte anyway. That's only for people who have the motivation to do it. The best way to do God's work on earth is to do first two things.

 

1. Love God

 

2. Love Your Neighbor

 

If you accomplish the first two your closer to the kingdom of heaven than you know. 

 

Speaking of Christianity. even Jesus has a pony!

 

http://fav.me/d4hr5i7

[TheChosenPony 279]

I'm an active christian and was baptized in 2012. Its nice to see how many there are here. Really amazing and pretty much explains this fandom in whole

Edited February 25, 2014 by TheChosenPony

[Planty 1,053]

I love Jesus!

 

I initially came to the forum as I realised it was the nicest place on the internet away from so much of the hate and just generally horribleness that goes on online!

 

Mlp is great and light hearted and not stupidly over sexualised with lots of death and gore ect so it fits into my personality quite well. I hate all of that stuff really, so in a way I guess mlp is escapism for me from the real world. But the real world can be so horrific at times I just can't stand it!