Going Vegetarian

[Ember Dragonheart 10]

1) Eating meat is not at all required for health.     Please tell this to the poor people who's main enjoyment is from meat they get from an animal they raised. They can be fed more heartily on an animal, than they can with rice or any food they have to grow themselves. Plus, imagine how difficult it is for them to live off of plants only in colder regions where plants are very sparse, and animals are needed as a food source.

2) There is no nutrient in meat that cannot be found in a vegetarian diet.  Yes, you can get by on vegetarian diets, but really, you're getting possibly more protein from meat than any other food product.

3) There is no disease where eating meat is required for the treatment or cure of the disease.    "Since meat contains a large amount of protein, this could be beneficial to the body as the need for protein is an important one for the body. Since protein is said to improve the overall health and well-being of one’s body, there are other benefits such as the repair and building of body tissues as well as the production of antibodies that will protect the body from infections, thus strengthening the immune system as well. Most importantly, since meat contains all the essential amino acids, it definitely ranks as one of the best sources of protein.
 

4) Therefore, eating meat is absolutely unnecessary.    I counter your arguement with saying, eating vegetables can be absolutely unnecessary in the same exact way.

5) Eating meat causes death to other animals, obviously.  So do other animals. What's worse, an animal being humanely killed for a use such as feeding people, or a pirhanna or snakehead eating parts of a fish while it continues to breathe and feel pain, or a vulture not waiting for an animal to die before feasting on it. Or parasites infesting a creature? Really, humans are the lesser of the evils the way they treat their prey.

6) Therefore, eating meat is immoral and unethical. And abhorrently selfish, Um...excuse me? This is actually a selfish thing to say in your regard. Your saying that no one has a right to eat what they want? I'm sorry, but we're not telling you that you can't eat vegetables because it's going to cause a shortage, or it's going to keep the poor people from having vegetables to eat, or silly things like that. Don't you dare call people selfish for what they choose to eat. We were put on this earth as the dominiant species. We've been eating meat ever since we've walked on this earth. Hell, how do you think the indians survived? The africans? Every culture eats animals, and even respects them.  Before you post stuff like this, think of what you're saying. I don't see anything immoral about eating a hamburger, or hunting a deer for venison to last for the winter. I grew up chopping chicken's heads off with an axe when I was younger and it never bothered me. You know why? because I knew my family was going to use that meat for the winter to support our HUMAN selves.

 

Good day to you...

Edited May 31, 2013 by Ember Dragonheart

[applelatch 44]

Yes, livestock eat alot of plants. It also happens that they eat alot of plants humans have trouble digesting properly. I love animals i've grown up around them my whole life, but animals are not people. I'm trying not to bring spirituality into it, my beliefs play a large role on my thoughts, humans and animals are completely different. Animals don't have morals, deep inner thoughts, or function anything like humans. Animals will mate with their family members and in some species kill them just as quickly, they don't distinguish right from wrong. I've seen countless animals attack and kill each other,I've also seen some cases where they bizzarely get along. There's a photograph we have from when I was little of our dog, ducklings, chicks, kittens, our rabbits, and a squirrel we took in all chilling on the porch together not trying to eat each other. That same dog who mothered every animal we ever had hated puppies, she would attack them if she saw them, she never had puppies herself so maybe that had something to do with it. This is the same dog who, when one of our cats had a litter of kittens and wouldn't take proper care of them, would climb under the shed where the kittens were and bring them all to the porch and mother them. When I was little I would always get onto the cats for killing things, it made me sad that they would hurt other animals and cats can be really cruel about it too, but they don't know better. Everything to me has life and I feel that life is connected. Plants may not have pain receptors like animals do, they still live though, a plant can be killed, or be dying. Plants have flesh, they have secrete fluids when cut, they may not cry out or fight back when you kill it, but the end result is the same. Animals to me aren't that different from plants, because neither are human, but we all live. I don't mean to say animals are like furniture and you can just abuse them, but everything consumes life to continue living. All life should be respected, I feel plants get ignored more and considered less "alive" because they don't feel the same way as things with a heartbeat or scream when you kill them. Anyways, my personal beliefs may seem weird, but i've always put alot of thought into thes things because they matter to me, even if I have trouble conveying them through typing. On another note I got onto a cat the other day for killing something (old habits never go away) and I thought it was a mouse. It was a bat, somehow it got ahold of a bat. I don't even know sometimes *facepalm*

[Aaramus 449]

Here is my argument for eating meat:

 

 

I think that there are more worrying things concerning our diets than vegetarianism. I feel there's a difference between not eating meat because of the taste and not eating it because of some "moral high ground". 

 

The majority of us don't really need to use food for survival, we expect to have food when we want it so surely then it becomes a case of what food we like and don't like? I like meat so I'll eat it. I'll choose a bacon sandwich over a salad thing any day.

[Winterbass 763]

Are humans narurally omnivores? That's all up to debate but humans have lived long and successful lives without the need of animals, even in the past there were tribes who lived off fruit and vegetables.

 

The point of changing to a vegetarian diet is to express compassion for others.

 

Humans cruely enslave creatures just for greed not survival, creatures and critters aren't lesser beings than us.

 

Humans don't need meat to be healthy, they don't need silk for survival and they definately don't need to use creatures as test subjects.

 

The argument always ends up like this:

 

Vegetarian - I will not harm another's life because I care

 

Omnivore - I will eat meat because it tastes good and it keeps me alive.

 

So, just because an animal tastes good you should eat it? The idea of harming another just for luxury is a bit... devious.

 

As for what you said, sure some creatures can ONLY live on an omnivore diet; but humans aren't one of them.

 

As for humans being omnivores, that's a bit rediculous. We don't have razor-sharp teeth or claws:

http://whitney05.hubpages.com/hub/not-created-to-eat-meat

 

Even if we were created to be strictly omnivore, I'll still continue my animal restricted diet because I will not eat innocent flesh for survival.

 

health.usnews.com/best-diet/vegetarian-diet

 

We are omnivores because it is in our genes. Just by looking at our teeth alone we can determine that we are omnivores. We have to eat meat to survive. It's in our nature. The fact that we have developed food that is able to replace meat is something I do not care about. Leave a human alone in the nature with just  clothes and a pocket knife, and he will die when he refuses to eat meat. Unlike us humans. Pigs, badgers and bears have to eat meat to survive. They do not possess the intelligence to cook their meat or to build factories to provide themselves with substitutes for meat. Therefore, meat IS very important for health and development. Given the fact that you're probably a vegetarian or even a vegan, I am sure you are very well aware on how nutrients break down in our body. Especially triglycerides, polysaccharides and polypeptides. 

 

I eat meat because it is a luxury. It is tasty and I eat it because it is tasty, in fact, I see meat as a substitute for all that pro-vegetarian stuff that's out there. I'd rather eat meat than something that tasteless, not to mention the fact the amount of flavor enhancers in vegetarian food makes me sick and cooking using pro-vegetarian food is like playing soccer against yourself, it just doesn't work . Meat also provides me with more nutrients than a plant ever will.

I want to ask you the question: Have you ever lived on the street or in a very poor economy? If you have, I'm sure you must know how important meat is. For almost up until my 8th year I've lived with pretty much nothing. I thank lady luck for having provided my family with just enough money to live. I'll tell you, whenever we could afford to buy meat, we did. Meat is extremely important for your health, especially when you grow up. Plants and substitutes just don't provide the same balance as meat does for a growing child, especially when we talk about males.

 

Also the argument "how would you feel if you were an abused animal, how would you feel if your family lived in a cage" is ridiculous. Of course I would hate the ones who would do that to me. But neither me or my family lives in a cage, so why should I care? I don't have any morals nor do I need them. I don't care about rights for animals because they are simple animals. Sure they have feelings. But I don't see them express those feelings. I don't mind whatever lands on my plate since I've never seen the animal.

 

I'll have to agree with you with abusing animals, no matter what my opinion about animals is, it IS still cruel and unforgiving. And I support the movement to stop bio-industries. But that's not the only place where meat comes from. Right across my street, about a minute's walk there's a butcher. All the meat he sells is either from his own animals or animals that have been treated right. That's right, animals that were butchered because they died of old age or too sick to live on. I don't care what claim anyone makes against this. I eat this meat because it's fair. Sure it's a bit more expensive and I still don't care how animals I don't see are being treated. But I guess it's something.

[repsol rave 2,963]

as good as all your argumenst are, i will never be able to go vegetarian.

i just love my meat too much to give it up. 

i know that there are plenty of vegetarian meat-ish substitudes, but they arn't the same. and they never will be.

to me,there is nothing better that chomping down om some ribs fresh from the grill.

i also understand why people would consider giving up meat,but to me the reasons arn't enough.

 

also,if eating meat means i'm a bad person because of the animals that where killed for my burger,it's a price i'm willing to pay.

[PercyThePony 15]

I only eat a few types of meat. I do think it is very sad to eat animals, but it's how us humans are. Though I think it is just plain cruel if you kill animals for fun. Even if it's as small as an ant. To be honest I just do not enjoy the taste of most meats. I only eat 2 types of meat. When I say "I don't like bacon." or "I don't like hamburgers." people always are kind of like, "What?" but I just think it is odd most people hunt for fun, when they don't need to. Sadly, no one can stop the whole world from not eating meat. 

[SasQ 1,376]

There have been many arguments shown in this discussion thread. Some of them valid, some of them not, and some of them very stretched out to fit someone's point of view. I understand that people are trying to make excuses of what they do. But what I cannot understand, is why are they trying to force their views down the throats of others? :-/ Please look into your own dishes and stay away from other people's dishes, OK? It's their own business what they want to eat. You can like/dislike meat/vegetables/spiders/whatever, but please don't tell other people what they shall eat, and what they shall not.

Let me explain it to you this way:

What you eat is what you are. And I'm not talking about the philosophical thing now, but biology. Emotions are controlled in part by the hormones. And hormones are chemical molecules. To build a hormone, the body has two options:
1. It can build it itself from other molecules.
2. It can get it ready-made from food it eats.
There are substances we can get only by eating other organisms which produce them. And there are such substances which we can produce ourselves. Vegetarians also need some substances they cannot produce themselves, and that's why they eat plants (why aren't they sorry for these miserable plants which they have to kill first, and how is it less killing than killing some animal, is beyond my scope for now).

So there is a link between what we eat and how we are. A link which works two ways:

 

1. To be able to feel certain emotions, you need to produce hormones which control them, so you need their building blocks, usually from food. But if there are no such substances in your diet, then you won't be able to produce some hormones, and you won't be able to feel certain emotions.

2. If you don't need to feel certain emotions (e.g. aggression, since you're not aggressive on your daily basis), your body won't need to produce these hormones and you won't need their building blocks in your diet, so your body will automatically won't need certain types of food.

 

That's why I believe that what one eats is the matter of his own state of personal development. Some people need to feel certain emotions in their lives, and this makes them to require certain molecules in their diet, so their bodies demand food which contains it. But when their lives change, or their characters change, they don't need those molecules anymore, and their diet changes too.

 

Eating meat is all about this. Some people are still on certain stage of their development, and they need to feel certain emotions (e.g. aggression, or fear, controlled by adrenalin, testosterone etc.), which makes their bodies require those substances, which could be found in meat of other animals (e.g. carnitines). And until they change their character and way of being, their life philosophy, they will require meat in their diet and they will love eating meat. And you cannot do anything with it, except to deal with it.

 

But as soon as these people will change their philosophy (and you cannot force them to do it, it doesn't work that way; it could be done only from the inside), and will replace certain emotions with the others, (e.g. they'll become more empathic, less fearful, less aggressive, more calm and peaceful etc.), they will naturally give up certain types of food, since their bodies will not require it any more. Meat will begin to be less tasty for them, maybe even they'll start to see it filthy to eat meat, as you veggies do now. For example, I once liked bacon and pork, but when my life changed, my diet changed too, and now I wouldn't take any pork or bacon to my mouth, it tastes hideously to me. I still eat chicken and fish, and I like their taste. But recently I like chicken less and less. It started to taste awfully to me. So the only meat I still tolerate is fish. On the other hand, when I was a kid, I hated vegetables. But with time they started to taste to me, and now I eat much vegetables.

 

There are people who have given up any cooked vegetables and can eat only raw vegetables (they call themselves "vegans"). There are also people who practiced much meditation and spiritual exercises, ritual fasting, or other stuff like that. And one of the side-effects of such practices is often to resign from vegetables too, and eat only fruit or drinking fruit juice. There are people (quite rare though) whose development stage allows them to give up even the fruits, and they live only on water and breathing! They call themselves "breatharians", and they claim they live only by eating the "energy" they breathe in, which they call "prana".

 

But this is not something everyone can achieve just like that, by quitting eating one day. This is the straight path to death from starvation or to some diseases. Why? Because you cannot quit one form of energy (food) without shifting the resonant frequencies of your whole body and mind first. To change diet, one needs to re-program his body first to these different metabolic cycles, and change its state of mind to the one which doesn't require certain substrates from diet. Only then one can change the diet without any damaging consequences to its body.

 

I heard many voices here that it's not healthy to give up meat, since our bodies require certain substances in our diet which cannot be replaced by just some grass. In some way, they are right. But they are right on condition: that their body still requires these substances. If they still like meat, their bodies apparently still need these substances, and quitting meat would be damaging for them, because they'd deprive their bodies these substances, breaking the metabolic pathways, which can lead to diseases.

 

But they are wrong in the point that if something works for them, it will work the same for other people. This is not the case. Other people could be at different stage of development and their bodies can already work differently, requiring different substances in their diet. And their bodies will tell them what to eat. If they don't like meat, but they love vegetables, it's the sign from their bodies what substances their bodies need. And quitting meat won't hurt them anymore, since their metabolic pathways are shifted toward different types of economy.

 

The same could be said about breatharians: they're at the stage of development which allows them to quit any food altogether, since their bodies learned how to gain energy from different sources than material food. They say that material food is just "crystallized energy" (the prana), which the bodies of other people restore from this matter. But they managed to learn their bodies how to gain energy directly from their surrounding, sidestepping the material form. But they know too that forcing other people to quit food would kill them, since their bodies are not ready yet for processing energy directly. All their metabolic pathways are still accommodated to processing energy in its material form, and it is all they can do. They cannot process energy directly, even if they were immersed in it.

 

On the other side, all this breatharianism stuff will appear pure fantasy or impossible for people who still need to eat food, since they cannot imagine otherwise. They feel hunger when they don't eat, so they are certain that quitting food won't be good for them. Now imagine that carnivores (meat-eaters) feel the same when some vegetarian tells them to quit meat: they are certain that when they don't eat meat, they feel hungry, because their body tells them in that way which substances it still requires.

 

And the other way around: Many people tell to the breatharians that they need to eat or they'll die. But they already know that it's not true, from their own experience. This is the same how vegetarians feel when some carnivores tell them that they need to eat meat or they die. They already know that they won't, from their own experience. They eat vegetables and feel full & healthy, everything is fine for them.

 

Same is with breatharians: They don't need to eat, because they don't feel hunger. They have enough energy from other sources than food, and they feel healthy & full of energy, and everything is fine for them (through many years!), so they know from their own experience that they don't need to eat. And any vegetarian or carnivore won't convince them otherwise.

 

Again, you can think, from your perspective, that eating is not optional, and that is is impossible to live without eating at all. But those people somehow do it. And although there's not much scientific knowledge about how they do it, I can tell you what science knows, and which can be some explanation how they do it:

 

Many of you may not know it, but in our bodies, there's more energy produced from breathing oxygen than from burning sugars.

 

When your body breaks down complex sugars to simpler ones, like glucose or fructose (both having 6 carbon atoms), those particles then undergo the process called glycolysis. Glucose is broken down first into phosphoglyceraldehyde (PGAL) -- the simplest carbohydrate there is, 3 carbon atoms -- and then two such molecules are broken down into two pyruvate molecules. This process requires us to invest 2 molecules of ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate, the "energy currency" in living organisms), and then it releases some energy from the molecular bonds, which is used to produce 4 ATP molecules. So we have just 2 net ATP molecules of profit. This is not much. It's around 3.6% of the whole energy stored in glucose.

 

But then, those 2 pyruvate molecules enter the Krebs cycle (or citric acid cycle), which breaks down these molecules even further, producing 2 more ATPs and some NADH (nicotinamide-adenine dinucleotide), an oxidizing agent which is used in our bodies to carry on electrons and hydrogen ions (protons). So we have 4 ATPs and some NADHs so far.

Krebs cycle is quite universal, since many other molecules can go into it. Eg. when your body breaks down fats into 2-carbon chains and attach them to acetyl-coenzyme A (Ace-CoA), they can also undergo the Krebs cycle in this form. But even if this produces the same amount of ATP for each 2-carbon chain as for each pyruvate molecule (so it is more energy-efficient than burning sugars), it's still not much efficient.

 

But then comes the magic.

In our cells there are little organella called mitochondria. In their inner membranes, there are certain protein enzymes sticked in, which can use those molecules from the Krebs cycle to pump protons in between the membranes and keep them there, an this is a lot of positive electric charge. It is similar to pumping up water to some artificial retention tank to use it later to drive a water wheel. Our cells can do the same: they use these protons to drive nano-motors made up of proteins, like this one here:

 

 

These motors drive a protein machine which can construct ATP molecules very fast, producing lots of energy.

Where does this energy come from?

It comes from the oxygen. Those proteins in the membrane juggle with electrons between different molecules, and the final place for these electrons is the oxygen atom. They use oxygen, because oxygen is the most electronegative element in the periodic table. It means that it likes to hog electrons. It has enough power to rip off electrons from other atoms and bond with them. Our bodies learned how to make use of this property of oxygen we breathe in to produce energy. And this is LOTS of energy! It gives us as much as 36 more ATP molecules for one glucose molecule! This is WAY MORE than from any previous metabolic process! Without oxygen, we couldn't do it.

 

But these proteins in the mitochondrion membrane, called together the Electron Transport Chain (ETC) -- since they can transport electrons from one molecule to the other, taking its final destination in the oxygen atom -- doesn't require to burn sugars nor fats. The only thing they need is those NADH and other molecules, which cycle there in a closed cycle. They're being restored by the previous reactions of burning sugars to close the cycle, but the cycle can be closed in any other way which is capable of regenerating those NADH molecules. The only required element there is the oxygen, and other oxidating agents (such as NADH) along the way. They just need some energy to kick those electrons into higher energy states until they land on the oxygen atom.

 

What's more, inside those proteins (especially inside the cytochrome C), there are used some molecules called heme. Those molecules have very similar structure to chlorophyll molecules inside plant cells (to be more exact, inside organelles called chloroplasts, which are very similar to mitochondria, and works in a very similar manner). And as you probably know already, chlorophyll molecules are photo-sensitive. They are used in plants to focus the sunlight and use its energy to "oxidize oxygen", breaking the water molecules, and transporting its electrons along the similar Electron Transport Chain as in mitochondria (just in reverse). So our cells already have the same machinery as plants, just working backwards. But it could be possible that the direction of reactions could be reversed somehow. If only our cytochromes could use those heme molecules to focus some form of energy and use it to kick electrons to higher energy states, instead of using high-energy electrons from food. Then the ETC could be reversed in our bodies too. This could be possible, since these heme molecules are also very photo-sensitive. Just in a different part of the electromagnetic spectrum, since they have an iron atom at their core instead of magnesium atom as in chlorophylls. This changes the resonant frequency of light they're sensitive to. I don't know what frequency of light they can use. It might be some infra-red, or ultra-violet. I'd bet for the latter, since heme molecules are used in hemoglobin, the red pigment in the red blood cells. They reflect red light, so they probably absorb higher frequencies, as violet and ultra-violet.

 

Breatharians often say that they gain energy from the air they breathe, and from the sunlight. This together can suggest that they somehow managed to reverse their electron transport chains inside their mitochondria, and they can use something similar to photosynthesis to tap into the energy of E-M radiation surrounding us, and the oxidative properties of oxygen itself. This way they don't need food, since they can use the radiation energy directly, as plants do (plants produce their own food, using the energy of sunlight and carbon dioxide gas from the air). We all have this machinery in our cells, but probably not much of us can make use of it in a proper way. Or we don't need it, since we taught our bodies to use energy from material food. But the machinery is there, ready for a different use if we will need it, and if we would be able to teach our bodies how to use the energy directly.

 

I'm not saying it's easy and that anyone can do it. I'm just saying that it could be possible, at least in theory, and for some people in practice (if one believes that breatharians really don't need to eat). So it's at least worth trying. Not by quitting food, but by trying these ancient practices of Pranayama to find out if it could allow us to switch our bodies to gain more energy and allow us to quit food in a natural way.

 

But this is a voluntary act. No one can force anyone to change its diet. Moreover, telling other people what to eat is one of the highest form of sadism and control of their will. This is what food corporations are doing with us around the world at present, with all these fastfoods, food preservatives, taste enhancers, chemicals in our food, hormones and antibiotics added to food, and prohibiting people to grow their own organic food by laws enforced by the government, forcing us to buy their junk food at malls (meat or vegetarian, it doesn't matter). Do you, vegetarians (or meat eaters as well) want to join their club, by telling other people what to eat? I don't think so.

Edited June 8, 2013 by SasQ

[Clover Heart 978]

I have a number of qualms with this.

 

First, what do you think is going to happen to all the animals if everyone stops eating meat? Farmers raise pigs, chickens and cows for their meat (and eggs and milk.) If we don't consume any of that, those animals are useless to the farmers. They can't make money off something that isn't giving them product, and no farmer is gonna wanna keep animals that aren't benefiting him/her financially, especially large stock farms with a lot of animals to care for. At the very best, these animals would have to be kept on reservations (most likely at tax payers' expense) so we can preserve them. However, worst case scenario, the farmers just release them. And you have to think, these are animals that have been bred down to be slow and stupid so they're easy to handle and slaughter. What do you think a pig's chances against a pack of wolves are?

 

Second, the matter of releasing all the animals. (And before you say I'm constructing a straw man or am going down a slippery slope, keep in mind, many animal rights groups which encourage vegetarianism and veganism want "total animal liberation," so I think it's worth mentioning this.) If we're concerned with the amount of pain and suffering an animal goes through, I have a question. Which of these sounds more painful: slitting of the throat in a way in which the animal loses consciousness very quickly and bleeds out in a matter of minutes or in the case of chickens, chopping off the head, preventing any pain or suffering? Or being eaten alive by a predatory animal, feeling every bite as their flesh is torn off their still-living body? Again, it sounds far-fetched, but if we were to stop eating meat and "liberate the animals," is it really?

 

Third, do you know how much carnage a combine harvester can leave in its wake? Cuz it's a lot. And the crappy thing is, we don't even use those animals for anything. As most, they fertilize the soil. At least with cows, pigs etc, we actually use the meat for something and don't just leave the dead carcasses around to obtain a completely different food source. Unless you're growing every single thing you eat from out of your home, if you buy anything commercially (including vegetables) an animal was probably killed in order to get it to you. Even if everything were picked by hand, we still use pesticides so that we can provide safe fruits, vegetables and grains for consumers. So what does it matter whether we're eating the meat or not. Actually, I say we should be eating the meat, since it's less of a waste.

 

Fourth, humans are omnivores. We do need meat. Vegetarians will tell you that we have flat teeth which is indicative that we're herbivores by nature. However, they seem to so conveniently forget that we have canine teeth, which are used for eating meat. The presence of both would indicate that we are meant to consume both. This wasn't just some human invention. Before someone ever gave a single thought to what health is and what healthy things to put in our bodies, humans were eating meat. It's the nature of human beings. I will give you that we don't need as much meat as mainstream media would have you believe, but we still do need it. About 15-20% of a human diet should be meat.

 

1) Eating meat is not at all required for health.

3) There is no disease where eating meat is required for the treatment or cure of the disease.

4) Therefore, eating meat is absolutely unnecessary.

 

My best friend's boyfriend's family used to be vegetarian. Then her boyfriend's brother started to become very thin, sick and weak. It turns out that he wasn't getting proper nutrition that a diet containing meat would provide. He had some problems with his health that the lack of meat was greatly exacerbating. Since then, the family had started eating meat again, and the brother's health greatly improved. Additionally, since her boyfriend has a high metabolism, he was really underweight at that time. Since he started eating meat again, he's at more normal weight.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Clover Heart

[SwigglySwiggly 358]

Although you have a point, and I agree with you within some points. Yes being a vegetarian, you can get the nutrients/protein that your body needs, although meat does not have as much nutrients as vegetables, meat has much more protein and fat which is nessecary for growth, Sure! you can get proteins from non-meat products too such as tofu, but you'll have to consume A-LOT of tofu to get the same amount of protein as you would get from meat. Lets face it humans are lazy, eat one bit of meat instead of a-lot of tofu, eat tablets instead of veggies. Humans are naturally meat-eaters, and we humans are lazy ass, so we make farms and slaughterhouses, because we are too lazy to run around to hunt and chase animals. But at the end of the day, telling someone to stop eating this and that, has no effect on their life. All that matters is what you do, if you go vegan, go ahead, whatever floats your boat, tell me to become a vegan, I'll consider it, bit its unlikely I will eat tofu over meat any-day soon. But its your opinion that counts, if it floats your boat, go ahead enjoy yourself.  

[Circadian 1,273]

First, what do you think is going to happen to all the animals if everyone stops eating meat?

 

I'm not asking everyone to stop eating meat all at once. Your view of the scenario is flawed from the start, but I'll address it anyway. You're thinking in the short term. This is like saying you continue to smoke because you haven't used up all of your cigarettes. Only in this case the cigarettes are constantly banging and making more cigarettes because you breed them in a controlled environment. 

 

We have a large amount of control over the number of animals bred. Don't act like we're doing the world a favor by keeping livestock. 

 

 

 

Again, it sounds far-fetched, but if we were to stop eating meat and "liberate the animals," is it really?

 

You're right, this scenario is far-fetched. It is also not my scenario. My scenario involves breeding less animals to begin with. This would slowly phase out the large number of livestock.

 

 

 

Third, do you know how much carnage a combine harvester can leave in its wake? Cuz it's a lot. And the crappy thing is, we don't even use those animals for anything.

 

This is a good point! Finally, something I had to pause and think about. Anyway, this sounds like a separate issue to me. You should make a new topic about it. 

 

 

 

Fourth, humans are omnivores. We do need meat.

 

Hey Circadian?  

 

Yeah Other Circadian?

 

Are you an omnivore?  

 

Why no Circadian, I'm not.  

 

But you need to eat meat!  

 

Why no Circadian, I don't think I do. I feel and look much better than before and my doctor says I'm at a perfectly healthy weight. The consumption of meat is absolutely not necessary to survive.  

 

 

 

My best friend's boyfriend's family used to be vegetarian. Then her boyfriend's brother started to become very thin, sick and weak. It turns out that he wasn't getting proper nutrition that a diet containing meat would provide. He had some problems with his health that the lack of meat was greatly exacerbating. Since then, the family had started eating meat again, and the brother's health greatly improved. Additionally, since her boyfriend has a high metabolism, he was really underweight at that time. Since he started eating meat again, he's at more normal weight.

 

Sound like they were doing it wrong. Anybody that has health problems from being a veggie isn't eating the right things. I'll admit I initially lost a bunch of weight when I made switch, but I've since put back on what I lost. Now I'm sitting at just below where I was almost two years ago. 

Edited June 9, 2013 by Circadian

[Dark Moon 965]

Fourth, humans are omnivores. We do need meat. Vegetarians will tell you that we have flat teeth which is indicative that we're herbivores by nature. However, they seem to so conveniently forget that we have canine teeth, which are used for eating meat. The presence of both would indicate that we are meant to consume both. This wasn't just some human invention. Before someone ever gave a single thought to what health is and what healthy things to put in our bodies, humans were eating meat. It's the nature of human beings. I will give you that we don't need as much meat as mainstream media would have you believe, but we still do need it. About 15-20% of a human diet should be meat.

 

Yeah I don't get why vegetarians give the whole claim about how we were herbivores. Like hell we were. We evolved from primates, which also do eat meat. We definitely didn't start out as herbivores. We still aren't, I'm just going to paste with some changes the tid bit I wrote earlier.

Yes science to the rescue.  (Theory, really good theory) We wouldn't even be humans without eating meat. We have our advanced brains because of our ancestor's diet of clams, frogs, bird eggs and fish from shoreline/swamp environments. Prehistoric Ethiopia(cradle of humanity) had such an environment. Anyways these are nutrient rich and stimulated brain development which lead to language and tool making. And to address why we don't have large canines and sharper teeth is because of the fact that we are bipedal which allows us to carry things and our ability to make tools. Sharp teeth were no longer biologically necessary, there is more to explain about this but you can look it up if you want. 

 

In the modern world though we can give up meat because we have tons of options for food now. If you can supplement the nutrients like protein lost from not eating meat then your fine. 

 

I'm not sure if I can get off meat now, I know it won't be feasible this summer as I'm still dependent. And trying to do it in college would be really difficult.

Then again I don't think I would have a problem hunting animals, so if I can kill it, then I can eat it.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dark Moon

[RazzyJam 1,519]

I'll have to agree with you with abusing animals, no matter what my opinion about animals is, it IS still cruel and unforgiving. And I support the movement to stop bio-industries. But that's not the only place where meat comes from. Right across my street, about a minute's walk there's a butcher. All the meat he sells is either from his own animals or animals that have been treated right. That's right, animals that were butchered because they died of old age or too sick to live on. I don't care what claim anyone makes against this. I eat this meat because it's fair. Sure it's a bit more expensive and I still don't care how animals I don't see are being treated. But I guess it's something.

 

You had me up until this part. The butcher sells healthily animals that were killed for their meat. However, the difference between the meat that a butcher sells and the meat Tyson chicken sells is this: The butcher gets meat from a farm, Tyson has an industrial plant where chickens live in cages. Farm meat is best meat!

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

So eating meat isnt necessary,... and neither is plants. Ok just making sure i got this right. We have to eat SOMETHING. And based on both sides of the argument neither meat nor plants are technically "Necessary" for survival. I just want you all to see how foolish that is lol. So i guess the best diet is dirt, water, and a daily complete multivitamin, TASTY MMM MM goood.

 

The simple fact is, to lead a fully and truly healthy life we must eat the plants, and slaughter innocent animals so that we can also eat meat. its that simple. theres no morality issues that should stem from eating meat, and theres no scientific evidence to PROVE that a vegetarian diet is healthier. So just get off your morale and scientific high horses and lets go to Burgerking k?

[Dark Moon 965]

 

 

So eating meat isnt necessary,... and neither is plants. Ok just making sure i got this right. We have to eat SOMETHING. And based on both sides of the argument neither meat nor plants are technically "Necessary" for survival. I just want you all to see how foolish that is lol. So i guess the best diet is dirt, water, and a daily complete multivitamin, TASTY MMM MM goood.   The simple fact is, to lead a fully and truly healthy life we must eat the plants, and slaughter innocent animals so that we can also eat meat. its that simple. theres no morality issues that should stem from eating meat, and theres no scientific evidence to PROVE that a vegetarian diet is healthier. So just get off your morale and scientific high horses and lets go to Burgerking k?

 

 

I don't get that crap about the breathitarian crap either, that is ridiculous. I also agree that there are a lot of full of themselves vegetarians on this thread. We don't have to eat meat though, that is scientifically proven, as long as we can supplement the missing nutrients. I don't think being vegetarian is necessarily healthier either. It's called don't eat junk food like crazy, that is how you stay healthy. Also things that are fresh. I think I'm fine just the way I am actually, maybe could eat healthier.  Screw going vegetarian, if I could kill it, then I can eat it, no more morality problems. If people have issues with killing animals, that is their beef and I respect their choice to be vegetarian. Life is cruel. Survival of the fittest. Plus bacon...... Man I probably sound like a hypocrite after that first post I made awhile ago about how killing animals is wrong. Oh well, I was going through some personal soul searching problem like stuff. Vegetarians that think everyone should be Vegetarian are stupid. 

 

Screw BK, they suck, lets all go to Wendys and get Baconators...... (so unhealthy but so good)

[Prince Of Madness 28]

I'm allergic to vegetables and fruit, so I Have no choice but to eat meat. Even though you have Great Points, I really don't care that I eat animals.

[MilBrony 214]

I noticed that in Afghanistan, even though they are a mostly undeveloped nation, they only very rarely eat meat. Most of this is due to the fact that meat is considered a novelty dish served mostly when guests are visiting or during celebrations.

 

As a result, the average physique I saw there was trim, and lightly muscled. The preferred dishes for most meals are dependent on rice with different vegetables that can be found. If no vegetables, then just rice. I started eating a mostly Afghan diet after a few months and I saw and felt results immediately. They also have a bland, yogurt-like substance from goat or camel milk. Strange, but good with salt on top or mixed with curry. (I know, trust me on this)

 

But don't get me wrong, Afghan Goat is delicious!

 

 

 

The simple fact is, to lead a fully and truly healthy life we must eat the plants, and slaughter innocent animals so that we can also eat meat. its that simple. theres no morality issues that should stem from eating meat, and theres no scientific evidence to PROVE that a vegetarian diet is healthier. So just get off your morale and scientific high horses and lets go to Burgerking k?

'innocent animals'? OK.

 

Idea; before any animal is turned into steaks, chops, fillets or cuts we put them on mass trial and find them guilty of being absolutely delicious!

Edited June 9, 2013 by MilBrony

[Raiden21 804]

 

 

Idea; before any animal is turned into steaks, chops, fillets or cuts we put them on mass trial and find them guilty of being absolutely delicious!

So this then?

I personally couldn't go without meat, it is just too good. If I had to get rid of meat, then I would eat fish like crazy.

[Winterbass 763]

You had me up until this part. The butcher sells healthily animals that were killed for their meat. However, the difference between the meat that a butcher sells and the meat Tyson chicken sells is this: The butcher gets meat from a farm, Tyson has an industrial plant where chickens live in cages. Farm meat is best meat!

 

Not true. My butcher doesn't. I don't know what other butchers do though. And how do I know? Well, simple reason: I work there every summer.

[Circadian 1,273]

 

 

The simple fact is, to lead a fully and truly healthy life we must eat the plants, and slaughter innocent animals so that we can also eat meat. its that simple.

 

I'm leading a fully and truly healthy life and I don't eat meat. Your simple "fact" is not in fact a fact. It is an opinion. The actual fact is you can lead a fully and truly healthy life without eating meat because I'm doing it right now. 

 

You say that not eating meat will make you miserable but I doubt you've never gone more than a week without. On the other hand I've experienced both situations and can say with certainty that this aspect of diet has nothing to do with happiness.  

 

 

 

theres no morality issues that should stem from eating meat

 

 

Yeah... the Korean dog trade would like to have a word with you. I can't link directly to it because it's NSFW. 

 

 

 

I personally couldn't go without meat, it is just too good. If I had to get rid of meat, then I would eat fish like crazy.

 

 

Fish is meat. If you got rid of meat you'd have to get rid of fish. 

 

 

 

I started eating a mostly Afghan diet after a few months and I saw and felt results immediately. They also have a bland, yogurt-like substance from goat or camel milk. Strange, but good with salt on top or mixed with curry. (I know, trust me on this)   But don't get me wrong, Afghan Goat is delicious!

 

Sweet, somebody that's tried both diets. Was it hard at first to eat minimal amounts or was the food balanced enough that it didn't matter?

 

 

 

Vegetarians that think everyone should be Vegetarian are stupid. 

 

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

I'm leading a fully and truly healthy life and I don't eat meat. Your simple "fact" is not in fact a fact. It is an opinion. The actual fact is you can lead a fully and truly healthy life without eating meat because I'm doing it right now. 

 

You say that not eating meat will make you miserable but I doubt you've never gone more than a week without. On the other hand I've experienced both situations and can say with certainty that this aspect of diet has nothing to do with happiness.  

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah... the Korean dog trade would like to have a word with you. I can't link directly to it because it's NSFW. 

 

 

 

 

 

Fish is meat. If you got rid of meat you'd have to get rid of fish. 

 

 

 

 

Sweet, somebody that's tried both diets. Was it hard at first to eat minimal amounts or was the food balanced enough that it didn't matter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, so why are you still trying to force your vegetarian crap on us?.. Just let it go and accept that we eat meat, and keep the vegetarien stuff to yourself. because frankly, we dont give a flying phuck..

[Circadian 1,273]

Yeah, so why are you still trying to force your vegetarian crap on us?.. Just let it go and accept that we eat meat, and keep the vegetarien stuff to yourself. because frankly, we dont give a flying phuck..

 

No. The whole point of this thread is to give reasons why people should consider going veggie. If you truly don't care, stop replying.  

Edited June 9, 2013 by Circadian

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

No, and heres why. i feel like us meateaters are being put on trial here. Its strikes a chord of discrimination with me, the way you talk about us.... and i dont like it. One of my best friends was a vegetarian. Awesome guy, and every tuesday when he and my other buddies would come over, i would prepare a special vegetarian snack just for him out of tolerance and just because he was a great friend. He died in a car wreck. But up until then, i always supported, and provoked my other friends to support his choice. He never talked in the hateful tone that your using on us now. Cause he was tolerant. 

 

I feel like your trying to force vegetarianism on us, by criminalizing the consumption of meat. Bro.. thats just not cool. Its ok to be veggie. Its uncool to discriminate bluntly against meat eaters.

[Clover Heart 978]

I'm not asking everyone to stop eating meat all at once. Your view of the scenario is flawed from the start, but I'll address it anyway. You're thinking in the short term. This is like saying you continue to smoke because you haven't used up all of your cigarettes. Only in this case the cigarettes are constantly banging and making more cigarettes because you breed them in a controlled environment. 

 

We have a large amount of control over the number of animals bred. Don't act like we're doing the world a favor by keeping livestock.

I don't feel that you've adequately addressed how my thinking is flawed. Again, I must ask, who is going to keep animals that aren't providing any product, thus, not providing any money on a commercial farm? 

 

Hey Circadian?  

 

Yeah Other Circadian?

 

Are you an omnivore?  

 

Why no Circadian, I'm not.  

 

But you need to eat meat!  

 

Why no Circadian, I don't think I do. I feel and look much better than before and my doctor says I'm at a perfectly healthy weight. The consumption of meat is absolutely not necessary to survive.  

 

 

Erm... *hem...* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Diet

Simply saying that you are or are not something doesn't make it so. I could say that I'm not white and that I'm actually black until I'm blue in the face. No amount of stating that will make it true. You cannot will away the fact that human beings are omnivores. Unless you're saying you're not human, either, but then we have the exact same problem.

 

Sound like they were doing it wrong. Anybody that has health problems from being a veggie isn't eating the right things. I'll admit I initially lost a bunch of weight when I made switch, but I've since put back on what I lost. Now I'm sitting at just below where I was almost two years ago.

Being vegetarian wasn't the cause of his health problems. He had pre-existing blood conditions. However, the lack of meat (presumably iron, but probably other things too) caused these problems to become much, much worse, and after eating meat again, the problems got better. The brother had health problems and the boyfriend was underweight. However, the parents were fine on the diet. I know this isn't necessarily representative of everyone, but I think the conclusion one can draw from this is that a vegetarian diet is not for everyone and should not be recommended for every single person. I'm not saying nobody should be vegetarian. I'm saying that some probably shouldn't.

[Circadian 1,273]

 

 

I don't feel that you've adequately addressed how my thinking is flawed. Again, I must ask, who is going to keep animals that aren't providing any product, thus, not providing any money on a commercial farm? 

 

Again, it's called phasing it out. You're making it sound like this is something that would happen overnight. 

 

 

 

Simply saying that you are or are not something doesn't make it so. I could say that I'm not white and that I'm actually black until I'm blue in the face. No amount of stating that will make it true. You cannot will away the fact that human beings are omnivores. Unless you're saying you're not human, either, but then we have the exact same problem.

 

Semantics. Will it away? I am a human being. I am not an omnivore. Therefore not all human beings are omnivores. Catch my drift?

 

 

 

after eating meat again, the problems got better.

 

 

You mean after eating something that was in the meat he felt better. There is nothing we find in meat that we can't find in other sources. 

[Clover Heart 978]

Again, it's called phasing it out. You're making it sound like this is something that would happen overnight.

I still don't seem to be understanding. What is going to happen to the animals in the end? Not speaking from an immediate change, eventually, if everyone were to stop eating meat gradually, when that day comes, what happens to the animals?

 

Semantics. Will it away? I am a human being. I am not an omnivore. Therefore not all human beings are omnivores. Catch my drift?

 

Again, you can deny it all you want. You're still, by nature, an omnivore. Yes, all human beings are omnivores. It's something that's definitive of us as a species. You can feed a rat all the meat it can stomach. That doesn't make it a carnivore just because you've changed its diet. 

 

You mean after eating something that was in the meat he felt better. There is nothing we find in meat that we can't find in other sources.

Okay, but what's more worth his time? Trying different foods over months, maybe years, to find out exactly what it was in the meat that his system needed? All the while, he's in and out of hospitals with his health suffering for it? Or going directly to the one thing they know works for him so he can recover quickly? I mean, this is a no-brainer, to me.