Whatever is wrong with Applejack.

[Declen 118]

(Also, whatever is right with her)

What I’m about to tell is, actually, obvious, but for some reason it was never mentioned in any Applejack analysis I’ve ever seen: Applejack ain’t honest.
For whatever reason, the creators of the show have decided, that honesty is an important part of the magic of friendship and gave that trait to Applejack. And then… they failed to establish it.
You remember the second part of the pilot episode: a big part of it was spent to five scenes establishing elements of harmony as traits of Mane Six. BronyCurious (I believe) stated in his analysis of the episode that it just wasn’t enough time to do it properly. In general, I can only agree with him, but going into details we can see that not each of those five scenes suffered from time limit equally.
In my opinion Fluttershy’s kindness and Rainbow Dash’s loyalty were revealed decently. Maybe, they could be revealed even better with more screentime, but they were already good enough.
Pinkie’s laughter and Rarity’s generosity weren’t revealed as fortunate as those mentioned above. But in these cases writers still managed to make a turn with help of healthy self-irony, though. I mean Twily’s reaction when Pinkie (for the first but not last time) broke into song: “Tell me, she’s not!” – “Yes, she i-is!” Or Dashie’s final statement in sea serpent scene: moustache would grow back!
BTW, great scene though: ridiculous on one hoof and hilarious on other. It’s a useful tactic: if you are landed in an awkward situation, be the first who laughs. That way others will laugh with you, not at you. That’s exactly what writers did there.
But the attempt to reveal Applejack’s honesty was a complete fail. When Applejack started to talk about “honest truth” many viewers said: “What?! What does honest truth have to do with anything happening in this scene?!” But this was expected. We all know that honesty is valued as such only then, when revealing the truth has consequences you better avoid. So, to show honesty, we need those consequences. This means we need another conflict. Ergo, we need whole another subplot, which has to be developed throughout several scenes. And there lack of screentime strikes!
Not being established properly, the element of honesty never appears further in the show. No, really: Applejack isn’t particularly honest. She lies occasionally, as we all do, and for the usual reasons. What’s really bad is that she sometimes lies to herself. That is the farthest thing from honesty you can ever have. Sad but true. Furthermore, as soon as in the first season we have several episodes built upon Mane Six being in their elements. We have Rarity being generous in “Suited for success”, we have Fluttershy being kind in “Bird in the hoof”, we have Pinkie Pie being full of laughter in “Griffon the brush off”. We even have an episode, where those elements came into collision: “Green isn’t your colour”.
But we have not a single episode – not in the first season, nor in the whole entire show – where Applejack's honesty would be the driving force of the story. In the contrary, we have two episodes where the main conflict is generated by Applejack’s lying: to her friends in “Last roundup” and to herself in “Applejack season”.
Well, it’s perfectly understandable: honesty has been number one priority in children’s didactics for the last nine thousand years. After all, parents and teachers don’t want children to lie to THEM. But it means there’re already too many stories out there that teach children value of honesty. Also, let’s admit it: honesty isn’t most valuable virtue in a real adult life. At some point we all have to learn when and how it is appropriate to lie. So once again, it’s perfectly understandable if the creators of the show don’t really want to address this issue.
What I can’t understand then is why in Celestia’s name they’ve chosen the trait they have no interest in exploiting further whatsoever?!
Thank Celestia Applejack has another trait we love her for. It’s her reliability. She is very supportive and always tries to be reliable to her friends. Right from start, in the beginning of “FiM, Pt.2” she says: “She ain’t no spy! But she sure knows what’s going on, don’t you, Twilight?” With that one sentence she admits Twilight importance, reveals it to others, asks Twilight to trust them and offers her support. Later on she refuses to leave Twilight alone in Everfree Forest. In “Ticket Master” all five try to bribe Twilight for the extra ticket but only Applejack tries to give Twilight what she actually needs at the moment: food. And in the end she is the first who apologises. In “Dragonshy”, when Twilight decides to stick to the plan and bring Fluttershy along, Applejack takes care of the matter without questions. And later on Applejack saves Twilight in avalanche. Not to mention “Applejack season”. This list can go on and on, but there is one another example of Applejack’s supportiveness I’d like to mention. I will do it another tome, though, when I’ll talk about “Boast Busters”.
The final question is: why creators of the show didn’t make reliability Applejack’s element of harmony? It would fit perfectly, wouldn’t it?

Original post.

[Scootalove 10,689]

I would say that her stubbornness would have to be what is wrong with her or that she doesn't live up to her Element: Honesty. Other than that I have no problems with Applejack.

[VanellopeSofia 32]

I agree with you fully, Applejack is lacking in honesty because the writers aren't showing it well. They need an episode next season to really emphasize AJ's honesty. She's last on a lot of people's least favourite pony and not without reason. What do we know about her? She's a farmer, works hard, claims to be honest but consistently decives her friends in "The Last Roundup" and "Spike at Your Service". I've never seen anyone make a strong argument on AJ being best pony and that's because there is none. Which is sad.

[Shanks 10,816]

Yes there are times where Applejack has not been honest but there have also been times where Fluttershy hasn't been kind, Rainbow Dash hasn't been loyal, Rarity hasn't been generous, and Pinkie Pie hasn't been cheerful. One of the things that makes this show so compelling is the ponies though they embody their respective elements well do sometimes fall short and struggle with certain aspects of said element. In Applejacks case she often struggles with though she has gotten better at being stubborn, Applejack can be prideful at times and the act of admitting she was wrong can still be difficult for Applejack. 

 

And honesty is about more than just not telling lies, it is about being true to your values and principles which Applejack has shown she is many times over. She has a strong sense of honor and can be a bit too hard on herself at times, but is a mare of her word as she has shown especially Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 when she said "a deal's a deal." It is also about being true to yourself which again Applejack also is, she is a tomboy like Rainbow Dash but dosen't suffer from her same insecurities about maintaining her "rep" so is not as reluctant to express her softer side and occasionally  embrace the more feminine aspects of her personality.

I've never seen anyone make a strong argument on AJ being best pony and that's because there is none. Which is sad.

Strap yourself in because I and I am sure a few other hardcore AJ fans while we may not convince you will certainly do our best. Here is a few of my reasons.

 

http://mlpforums.com/blog/456/entry-5536-12-reasons-why-applejack-is-best-pony/

[VanellopeSofia 32]

Strap yourself in because I and I am sure a few other hardcore AJ fans while we may not convince you will certainly do our best. Here is a few of my reasons.

 

http://mlpforums.com/blog/456/entry-5536-12-reasons-why-applejack-is-best-pony/

I stand corrected, there are compelling arguments on AJ being best pony, but I still think she needs an episode which solely shows her honesty. Like she accidentally throws one of Twi's books into her fireplace, she ponders whether to tell her or not, eventually tells her, accepting any consequence but Twi forgives her and say "That's what friends do" or something like that

[Fhaolan 4,483]

Because they've effectively got the wrong name for her Element. It's not 'Honesty', it's actually 'Integrity'. Integrity does imply honesty to some extent, and is sometimes used like a synonym, but not to the levels most people are assuming. Integrity is far more descriptive of Applejack, but Honesty is an easier translate for the intended audience. 

[Aura 120]

I think there is is more to the issue of honesty as a whole an what any of us bother to realize.  Before you ready further,  I want to make it clear that I am not discrediting the original post, but that there are a few points standing out that I wish to rebut anyway.

 

For AJ's scene in S01 E02, she knew that Rainbow and Flutter would catch Twilight.  Twilight couldn't believe hear ears when AJ told her to let go.  Could AJ have instead said, "Twilight, Rainbow and Fluttershy will catch you.  Don't worry."  Maybe, maybe not.  Perhaps there wasn't enough time for AJ to say all of it, or maybe the creators wanted the scene to imply, "trust your friends even when it is hard to do so."  Twilight didn't know everything AJ knew, so Twilight had to trust that AJ was being honest --with her safety.

 

For the episodes dealing with dishonesty towards oneself, I think we don't give them enough credit.  In The Last Roundup, Applejack took an honest statement, "I failed to win the prize money," and turned it into fear of the future, "my friends and family will hate me for failing."

 

And you know what?  I need to be honest with myself.     I need to get off of my laptop --until tonight at least.  I'll be back to discuss this subject more.

[Declen 118]

And honesty is about more than just not telling lies, it is about being true to your values and principles which Applejack has shown she is many times over.

I would disagree on this. As I see it, what you describe here is honour, not honesty.

Is Applejack a mare of honour? Absolutely. And I like her for that. But is she honest? Well, you'v read my post.

 

 

Because they've effectively got the wrong name for her Element. It's not 'Honesty', it's actually 'Integrity'.

What's integrity? Can you explayn it, please? (english isn't my native language).

Edited September 15, 2013 by Flipturn

[Solar Cloud 493]

I would disagree on this. As I see it, what you describe here is honour, not honesty.

Is Applejack a mare of honour? Absolutely. And I like her for that. But is she honest? Well, you'v read my post.

 

 

What's integrity? Can you explayn it, please? (english isn't my native language).

 

Integrity:

 

1: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility

 

2: an unimpaired condition : soundness

 

3: the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness

Edited September 15, 2013 by Flipturn

[Fhaolan 4,483]

I would disagree on this. As I see it, what you describe here is honour, not honesty.

Is Applejack a mare of honour? Absolutely. And I like her for that. But is she honest? Well, you'v read my post.

 

 

What's integrity? Can you explayn it, please? (english isn't my native language).

 

 

@@Solar Cloud has given the dictionary definition above, but I'll see if I can expand on it.

 

Usually integrity means are trustworthy, dependable, and reliable. Keeping your word, meaning what you say, and especially acting like you mean it. Being responsible, and taking responsibility.

 

Does that help?

 

In the last episode, Celestia described the traits Twilight had learned since she moved to Ponyville. Each of those traits lined up with one of the Elements, but they were different words than the normal Element names. Integrity was the word Celestia used instead of 'Honesty', and it's one of those I personally think works better describing the relevant bearer.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Flipturn

[Declen 118]

 

 

Does that help?

Yes, thank you very much.

 

In the last episode, Celestia described the traits Twilight had learned since she moved to Ponyville. Each of those traits lined up with one of the Elements, but they were different words than the normal Element names.

Right! Looks like I missed that moment. Charity, compassion, devotion, integrity, optimism and leadership. I'd say, these words do describe some Mane Six traits more accurately.

[Winona the Dog 1,984]

I agree with you to an extent. It's true there hasn't been an episode that revolves around Applejack's honesty towards her friends ( it's mostly AJ being dishonest towards herself she has trouble with which is actually a pretty unique twist)

 

Applejack isn't completely honest and she has lied ( with difficulty) on occasion but that's fine. Each of the mane 6 have realized the downside to each of their own element. I think the writing staff haven't really considered putting Applejack's flaw to use as Discord pointed out when he corrupted her.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ember The Dragoness

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

Another day, another AJ topic on why she isn't right for the element of honesty. Here we go...

 

First off, I just wanna explain what honesty actually means. Most people think of honesty as nothing more than truthfulness, and the first example we think of is someone who doesn't tell lies. Honesty is so much more than that. Dictionary.com, will you help us out?

 

1.the quality or fact of being honest; uprightness and fairness.

2.truthfulness, sincerity, or frankness.

 

Ah that's better. Now how about some synonyms? You know, words that essentially mean the same thing as honesty?

 

Synonyms
1. integrity, probity, rectitude. See honor. 2. candor, veracity.

 

Perfect! Now, I hope we can all agree that Applejack embodies these traits, as she demonstrates them all quite well. It is true that Applejack has lied in many episodes. The fact of the matter is is that everybody lies. If Applejack never once told a lie in the show, we'd be crying about how she's a Mary Sue because that's just not realistic, and no one is that perfect. Rainbow Dash isn't always loyal. Pinkie is not always brimming with cheer and laughter. Fluttershy has a not-so-kind side to her. And Rarity has been stingy plenty of times too. The elements of harmony are taken too seriously. The ponies NEED to make mistakes and break out of their elements if they're going to be believable characters in any way. As I said, do you want them as perfect Mary Sues, or complex individuals who make mistakes?

 

Now, how about some examples of Applejack being honest in the less obvious senses of the word?

 

1. Fairness - She clearly wanted to play fair and square with Rainbow Dash during the Iron Pony Competition. A better example is when she told her friends that there was "no point if we cheat," against the Flim Flam Brothers.

2. Frankness - When she scolded Twilight for using magic on Winter Wrap Up day.

3. Sincerity - When she told Rarity that she needs to give in to Sweetie Belle's requests. Applejack had no problem telling Rarity that she's been doing a whole lot of taking, but not much giving. This is AJ honesty at its finest. If there are no other useful displays of AJ's ability to tell the truth coming into play, then this one is by far the most important.

 

I'm sure I didn't do AJ enough justice right here, but at least we do have some clear examples of her honesty. Applejack was unfortunately stuck with the wrong word describing her element. As stated previously, integrity is the MUCH better word. However, the target audience would not understand integrity, so instead we have honesty, which should be more easily understood, but apparently it's not. The meanings are very similar, but integrity is a bit more broad.

 

I do agree that Applejack's honesty has been underplayed compared to the elements of the other ponies, and I hope to see this remedied in season 4. Honesty is the toughest one of all of the elements because it's so easy to slip up and be dishonest, because it's a trait that is tested every day. Applejack is still the best candidate for that particular character trait, and I can't be convinced otherwise. (That means the somewhat common notion that Rainbow Dash is more qualified for the element of honesty, because I completely disagree with that sentiment.)

 

I agree with you fully, Applejack is lacking in honesty because the writers aren't showing it well. They need an episode next season to really emphasize AJ's honesty. She's last on a lot of people's least favourite pony and not without reason. What do we know about her? She's a farmer, works hard, claims to be honest but consistently decives her friends in "The Last Roundup" and "Spike at Your Service". I've never seen anyone make a strong argument on AJ being best pony and that's because there is none. Which is sad.

 

*Head desks*

 

I'm glad EarthbendingProdigy has replied to you with 12 very good reasons why Applejack is a great character. Just because you haven't seen any strong arguments for why she is best pony does not mean there is none, because I guarantee you that some of us diehard AJ fans (yours truly) can give you plenty of reasons why we like ADORE her. Normally I would love to, but that's not the topic of discussion here, and EP outlined enough reasons already. Also, best pony is an opinion rather than a fact, so it can't be proven anyway. The best I could do is tell you why I think she's awesome, and then you can accept them as good reasons or not.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Sugar Cube

[Darkshift 85]

I think that's a load of rubbish.Applejack never lies,you never see her make a direct lie to someone

I don't mean to sound an absolute *** or anything but I'm pretty sure the creators wouldn't change a whole element three seasons after it was established.

[VanellopeSofia 32]

I'm glad EarthbendingProdigy has replied to you with 12 very good reasons why Applejack is a great character. Just because you haven't seen any strong arguments for why she is best pony does not mean there is none, because I guarantee you that some of us diehard AJ fans (yours truly) can give you plenty of reasons why we like ADORE her. Normally I would love to, but that's not the topic of discussion here, and EP outlined enough reasons already. Also, best pony is an opinion rather than a fact, so it can't be proven anyway. The best I could do is tell you why I think she's awesome, and then you can accept them as good reasons or not.

I have stood corrected and I admit I may have been a little harsh, but I still think she needs more development in her character and she could be the most collectively liked pony, but as is she is not my favourite, not to say she is a bad character 

[Declen 118]

First off, I just wanna explain what honesty actually means.

The problem with your approach is that you just replace the word "honesty" with any possible synonym, hoping some of them will fit to Applejack. This way you can "proof" anything - but not to me, sorry. Is Applejack fair and frank? You can bet... whatever a pony shoud bet - she is. But is she honest in the exact meaning of the word?

Another problem is, as I already stated in my initial post, that honesty isn't just a trait. It's a virtue, something that should be prized.

And you can only prize that, what has a cost.

Amongst things you've named only fairness demands its cost: you restrict yourself to rooles and cut off some possibilities.

What is the cost of being frank or sincerety? What could AJ possibly loose by telling things you've mentioned in 2 & 3?

You know what? I like Fhaolans suggestion that they should call it integrity (as they actually did it in Magical Mystery Cure). I would be completely happy with this.

I think that's a load of rubbish.Applejack never lies,you never see her make a direct lie to someone

Rubbish, you say? Never lied you say?

How about that time?

And that is really nothing compare to "Applejack Season" and "Last Roundup".

Not that I want to make a smear campagne against AJ, but since you asked politely...

Edited August 29, 2013 by Declen

[Darkshift 85]

Rubbish, you say? Never lied you say?

How about that time?

And that is really nothing compare to "Applejack Season" and "Last Roundup".

Not that I want to make a smear campagne against AJ, but since you asked politely...

Ha she never actually lied,

Maybe Rainbow Dash was bringing supplies

I don't know about you but I heard a lot of construction in the barn.

It was technically renovated into a party area.

She said "construction that's my story"She told Pinkipie it was a lie even though it wasn't a lie yet in everyones mind it was a lie and it all comes down too The Matrix!!!

[Shanks 10,816]

I would disagree on this. As I see it, what you describe here is honour, not honesty.

In the examples I gave they are clearly one and the same because it is easy to take shortcuts to betray your own principles and integrity to take the easy way out which many people unfortunately do every day. Alot of people try to put up a false front to try to hide who they really are because they are afraid of being judged, we have all been guilty of this from time to time but there are people who have such a serious problem with it that they forget who they even were in the first place. Applejack has even been guilty of this from time to time with her fears of failure and letting everyone down.

 

We saw this in The Last Roundup where Applejack was afraid to face the town and even her own friends because she didn't win the money to repair city hall like she promised and in Apple Family Reunion she was so afraid of letting everyone down that she tried way too hard and lost sight over what was really important. Despite this though most of the time Applejack is true to herself as a matter of fact the most true to herself of any of the mane 6. She for the aside from those few exceptions dosen't care what other ponies think and is not afraid to speak her mind.

 

 

 

 

[Mutemutt 773]

The problem with your approach is that you just replace the word "honesty" with any possible synonym, hoping some of them will fit to Applejack. This way you can "proof" anything - but not to me, sorry. Is Applejack fair and frank? You can bet... whatever a pony shoud bet - she is. But is she honest in the exact meaning of the word?

Another problem is, as I already stated in my initial post, that honesty isn't just a trait. It's a virtue, something that should be prized.

And you can only prize that, what has a cost.

Amongst things you've named only fairness demands its cost: you restrict yourself to rooles and cut off some possibilities.

What is the cost of being frank or sincerety? What could AJ possibly loose by telling things you've mentioned in 2 & 3?

You know what? I like Fhaolans suggestion that they should call it integrity (as they actually did it in Magical Mystery Cure). I would be completely happy with this.

 

And the problem with your approach is that you are narrowing down the meaning of the word in order to exclude the meanings that Applejack does exhibit (frankness, integrity, etc.). Doesn't that sound wrong to you; it's like the opposite of context clues  . The writers may not have used the most obvious word for the element they are displaying, but they are displaying the element. 

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

The problem with your approach is that you just replace the word "honesty" with any possible synonym, hoping some of them will fit to Applejack. This way you can "proof" anything - but not to me, sorry. Is Applejack fair and frank? You can bet... whatever a pony shoud bet - she is. But is she honest in the exact meaning of the word?

Another problem is, as I already stated in my initial post, that honesty isn't just a trait. It's a virtue, something that should be prized.

And you can only prize that, what has a cost.

But only fairness demands its cost: you restrict yourself to rooles and cut off some possibilities.

What is the cost of being frank or sincerety? What could AJ possibly loose by telling things you've mentioned in 2 & 3?

You know what? I like Fhaolans suggestion that they should call it integrity (as they actually did it in Magical Mystery Cure). I would be completely happy with this.

 

 

The words and examples I gave are all components of honesty, not mere synonyms. It seems you're just narrowing down the word to mean one thing when it simply doesn't. It's a lot more broad than that. The point I was trying to make is that honesty is more than just never lying.

 

You're also correct in saying that honesty is a virtue. However, I am not quite understanding this concept that sincerity and frankness aren't virtues because there is no negative cost of possessing them. I mean, Benjamin Franklin himself considered sincerity to be one the virtues for "moral perfection." A virtue is simply a good or admirable property or quality. Sincerity is something to be admired. Frankness is perhaps not as admirable, but it still ties into the dictionary meaning of honesty. And unlike what you were trying to imply, frankness does have costs - the feelings of the one in which the frankness is aimed at. In this case it was Twilight who ran off in tears after Applejack scolded her. It could be argued that AJ's frankness cost her the feelings of one of her best friends.

 

Anyway, I think we're going in circles. We don't have to agree with each other, but I will agree with you that Fhaolan has the right idea and that integrity is the superior word to use to describe Applejack's virtues. And I also agree that Applejack's honesty needs more attention in future episodes. Thank you for contributing another Applejack topic in which I get to debate with people. Seriously, I get my jollies off of it.

[Declen 118]

However, I am not quite understanding this concept that sincerity and frankness aren't virtues because there is no negative cost of possessing them

I'll try to explain it.

The concept of cost is needed to evaluate virtues objectively.

When we just say virtue is something contributing to moral perfection, then we, to be honest, should specifie what moral we talking about. Morals vary, and moral of a fscist society wouldn't be the same as moral of a social-darvinist society. Or, take the difference between a "culture of guilt" (like chistianity) and a "culture of shame" (like japanese).

So, to get the objective scale, we need something to "even the balance". And the cost I speak of is so to say: "a work of spirit".

For example: you maybe know, that it's more easy to tell truth then to lie. It's a fact of neurology, which is used for modern techniques of lie detection, from observing the eyeball movement to putting a person in question into MRI (House M.D.). Telling lies is just more complex process on its own. So, our brain tends to tell truth (to spare resources) if it has no impuls to lie. In that case we have to owercome that impuls first using our willpower upon ourselves. Thet's a good example of "a work of spirit".

Bravery is a virtue, because we have to owercome self-preservation instinct (in form of fear); compassion is a virtue, because we have to owercome natural xenophobia, generosity is... you got the idea.

 

 

It could be argued that AJ's frankness cost her the feelings of one of her best friends.

Of cause it dose. The problem is, how valuable tears of a friend for someone? Is he compassionate enough that a thought of friend possibly crying can stop him from sayng what he wants?

 

 

In the examples I gave they are clearly one and the same because it is easy to take shortcuts to betray your own principles

Of couse, there is a strong connection between honour and honesty. If you are a man of honour, if you have strong backbone, if you hold to your principles, it prevents you from lieing to yourself.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Declen

[Mutemutt 773]

I'll try to explain it.

The concept of cost is needed to evaluate virtues objectively.

When we just say virtue is something contributing to moral perfection, then we, to be honest, should specifie what moral we talking about. Morals vary, and moral of a fscist society wouldn't be the same as moral of a social-darvinist society...

 

*snip*

 

Sorry, I don't really see where you're going with this. Are you trying to discredit AJ's being the element of honesty by showing that the aspects of honesty that she does show don't have a cost? You're going to have to connect the dots for me because it seems like you're going off on a tangent. 

 

To be honest, I think you're just approaching this idea from the wrong angle. You've taken the word "honesty" and tried to fit AJ's actions strictly to only the "truthful" meaning when you should have taken the examples of honesty that AJ provides in the show and applied the definition of "honesty" that fit those examples; that's how language works. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by MuteMutt

[Misty Shadow 7,849]

I don't see any problems with Applejack as a character at all really (I actually think her moral of honesty is displayed fairly well), she's likable and there's some good depth to her. She's just very easily overshadowed by the other main characters.

Edited August 30, 2013 by CloudMistDragon

[Declen 118]

 

 

Are you trying to discredit AJ's being the element of honesty by showing that the aspects of honesty that she does show don't have a cost? You're going to have to connect the dots for me

"Discredit" is a such strong word! But yeah, you can say that's what I do.

I don't wont to repear myself: I feel like I sayd enough to present my case. If you wish to discuss it further, please, specify what is exactly unclear to you.

 

You've taken the word "honesty" and tried to fit AJ's actions strictly to only the "truthful" meaning

Yes, because whilst you may argue that honesty isn't just truthfulness, you can't say honesty is enything but truthfulness.

[Mutemutt 773]

"Discredit" is a such strong word! But yeah, you can say that's what I do. I don't wont to repear myself: I feel like I sayd enough to present my case. If you wish to discuss it further, please, specify what is exactly unclear to you.

What's unclear to me is how it all fits together. How does your point of those certain aspects of honesty not having a cost lead to Applejack not representing honesty? No matter how many times I read over the posts, I just can't see it.

 

Yes, because whilst you may argue that honesty isn't just truthfulness, you can't say honesty is enything but truthfulness.

Are you trying to say that truthfulness is the only meaning of the word honesty that actually counts? Or maybe you're saying a word isn't being used correctly unless every possible meaning the word has fits with the context. Truthfulness is only one meaning of the word and it is a meaning that is not always used. As always, context gives meaning and yet you seem to be ignoring that context, choosing a definition of the word you think it should match for some arbitrary reason. 

 

And that's what I think is the biggest flaw of this argument. It's built upon the assumption that honesty means only truthfulness. Once you consider the other meanings, you realize that AJ does indeed represent honesty. The big question is why did you choose only the truthfulness meaning when you've been shown the other meanings of honesty? The context in this case are the actions displayed by AJ in the show: times where she has shown fairness and integrity among others. Why would you choose a meaning so as to exclude the context you've been given? It just doesn't make sense. It almost seems as if you're intentionally getting the wrong idea. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by MuteMutt