S02:E19 - Putting Your Hoof Down

[DoubleRainboom 24]

remember last episode??? 

 

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE HAPPY PONYVILLE? WHERE DID THE JERKS COME FROM?

[Singe 2,111]

Asami Sato should attend an Iron Will Workshop.

[Washougal_Otaku 1,020]

I wish there was an "Iron Will Fan Club" thread.

I'd join that!

 

I think it might've been neat if Iron Will offered to pay Fluttershy for the rights to "No means no" phrase she gave him.  It's only fair.

[Pastel 7,630]

Very funny episode, and it has a good moral.

I like Iron Will, and especially at the end when he argues with Pinkie Pie.

One of my favorite Fluttershy's line:

 

Only flaw is the amount of jerks in Ponyville, although it makes Ponyville more realistic. Also Fluttershy shouting at Pinkie Pie&Rarity was a bit too exaggerated.

 

Other than that, great Fluttershy episode.

[Dixie 21]

WE GOT TO SEE FLUTTERSHY BECOME BOLD! How awesome is that??!!

 

I'm kidding xD

We did see a rather different side to Fluttershy in this episode, but I was distraught when Rarity and Pinkie Pie ran away from her crying

I guess there's a message in this that definitely says you must be assertive, but not a monster. I liked that about this ep.

[kelseymarie805 301]

WE GOT TO SEE FLUTTERSHY BECOME BOLD! How awesome is that??!!

 

I'm kidding xD

We did see a rather different side to Fluttershy in this episode, but I was distraught when Rarity and Pinkie Pie ran away from her crying

I guess there's a message in this that definitely says you must be assertive, but not a monster. I liked that about this ep.

 

I agree with you on that one, this was a great episode, although I have to admit, I seriously almost cried when she saw herself in that puddle and started crying! It was so sad, it was great to see her being assertive and standing up for herself but, it was sad to see how far she happened to take it, but that's OK, she learned her lesson, and that was the important thing. Just a really great ep overall. Would love to see more like this! Can't wait to continue the show!

[Castle Bleck 19,333]

Does it count as a wish come true if I made it myself?: http://mlpforums.com/topic/95723-iron-will-fan-club/

Edited June 22, 2014 by A.V.

[Pixel Stick 927]

I've seen quite a few criticisms of this episode based on how this wasn't the Fluttershy we all know and love, but I thought that was exactly the point of the episode. That Fluttershy let her emotions run rampant until she hurt her friends, demonstrated exactly what one should avoid when learning to stand up for him or herself.

 

Also, I think this episode does a good job demonstrating what true assertiveness is about. Iron Will taught how to be forceful to get your way. He didn't really teach assertiveness. Fluttershy learned what assertiveness really means at the end, and she was able to stand up to Iron Will herself, with confidence. She got her way, she didn't become mean or aggressive, and she ended up even teaching him something in the process.

 

I still think this is one of the best episodes of the series. It's certainly one of my top favorites.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Pixel Stick

[Skull135 16]

This episode made my non existing sanity break. I mean it was FLUTTERSHY who was mean and I was shocked

[crisahys 149]

I think that Putting Your Hoof Down is pretty keen on when it not enough and/or when things get out of hand, and I do think that the writers did an amazing job on showing kids that you need to find a sweet spot when you're being assertive. What interests me about this episode is about Iron Will and that despite the fact that he could be a tough monster, he's still a gentleman regardless of his assertive behavior. He may have triggered Fluttershy's inner bully, but I think he may have not realized that it was due to his training program with actually comes to show that not everypony is fit for the exact training program as Iron Will. In Fluttershy's case, I think he should have set up a self reflection about when things go too far in the first place. 

[Invincible 2,091]

I liked the episode. Really nice depiction of Flutters and her weaknesses, and nice 'villain', if you can call Iron Will that. That moment when she lashed out at Rarity and Pinkie Pie... that was intense. But i think it gave the audience a nice, comprehensible moral that everyone can relate to.

[ponytheorist 181]

I think this is one of the worst episodes of the whole show. 

 

Now, I like the premise: Fluttershy learns to be assertive, but goes to far with it. What I don't like is when she insulting Pinkie and Rarity, and saying that their whole life is a waste. Let that sink in. But that isn't even the biggest probem. Its how they handle it afterwards. Pinkie and Rarity just forgive Fluttershy. THEY FRIKING FORGIVE HER! And without any hesitation! I know this show is called Friendship is Magic, but this goes to far!

 

And on top of that, the episode also tries to make Iron Will the bad guy. That somehow he is at fault. All he did was teaching Fluttershy how to stand up for herself. Provided, it may have been very bad lessons, but Fluttershy chose to use the lessons. But no, Iron Will needs to shove Pinkie and rarity in the mud, to make him the villain of the episode. It feels really forced to me 

[Ruddboy Olaf 10,628]

Now,I know this a little late,but I thought this episode was awesome!

 

Especially the part where Fluttershy made Rarity and Pinkie Pie cry at the same time.

 

It was hilarious! 

 

Oh! And Iron Will was cool,too!

 

"When somepony tries to block,show them that you rock!"

[Pixel Stick 927]

I think this is one of the worst episodes of the whole show.

Certainly a valid opinion.

Now, I like the premise: Fluttershy learns to be assertive, but goes to far with it. What I don't like is when she insulting Pinkie and Rarity, and saying that their whole life is a waste. Let that sink in. But that isn't even the biggest probem. Its how they handle it afterwards. Pinkie and Rarity just forgive Fluttershy. THEY FRIKING FORGIVE HER! And without any hesitation! I know this show is called Friendship is Magic, but this goes to far!

Why is that going too far? Rarity and Pinkie were insulted, sure, but they were also perceptive enough to realize that this wasn't normal for Fluttershy, and that this wasn't the way she really felt. If you're good friends with someone, you understand them well enough to know when they're out of character and you can more easily forgive. It's when someone truly HAS changed for the worse that you consider otherwise.

 

To be perfectly honest, when you say that the episode went too far by having Rarity and Pinkie forgive Fluttershy without hesitation, it makes me wonder why you find that difficult to relate to. I learned to forgive and not hold grudges, so I found this a refreshingly GOOD example of how to be a good friend.

And on top of that, the episode also tries to make Iron Will the bad guy. That somehow he is at fault. All he did was teaching Fluttershy how to stand up for herself. Provided, it may have been very bad lessons, but Fluttershy chose to use the lessons. But no, Iron Will needs to shove Pinkie and rarity in the mud, to make him the villain of the episode. It feels really forced to me

I disagree. Iron Will is not a traditional villain, and in fact I don't believe he's a true villain at all. He had good intentions and some reasonable self-interest (making money), and his methods were simply flawed. But comparing him to, say, King Sombra, would be too big a stretch.

 

My opinion is that this episode did a GREAT job of showing just how blurry the lines can be in real life. Iron Will is a catalyst, not so much an antagonist. He shows Fluttershy how to come out of her shell, and while what he's teaching isn't so much assertiveness, it does help her deal with her shyness and letting everyone walk all over her. But, as I've argued before, Fluttershy finds herself unprepared for the surge in emotions that comes with her newfound confidence - a common, well-documented behavior in shy people in the real world. She ends up becoming abusive partly because she mistakenly thinks that Iron Will's teachings call for it, and partly simply because she doesn't know how to cope with all her pent-up anger and frustration. When she then realizes that she's hurt her friends and become a monster in her own right, she overcorrects the other way and tries to isolate herself, even when her friends come back to work things out. Again, this mirrors common behaviors in overly shy people. (I should know - I used to be one of them.)

 

Now, it's clear that Iron Will taught "How to get your way" and CALLED it being assertive, but that it wasn't true assertiveness. I believe he in fact DOES believe that's what being assertive is all about - and again, this is how a lot of real people view it. It's a common misconception that being assertive means being forceful, and that being assertive will always allow you to get what you want. And that's not true. Iron Will demonstrates his misunderstanding of this concept when he forces his way to Fluttershy's door, including getting Rarity and Pinkie out of his way by whatever means necessary. That's the "forcefulness as assertiveness" bit coming out in his behavior.

 

Now, I think the master stroke of this episode came immediately following that, when not only does Fluttershy demonstrate TRUE assertiveness, but she actually teaches Iron Will a lesson in the process. Since he never appears again after this episode, we can't really see if he's changed his ways, but they hint that he would. This, IMO, is the clearest demonstration that Iron Will isn't a villain - simply a bad example. And the show as a whole does a pretty good job of addressing both good and bad examples for making good life choices, in a way that in most cases isn't too preachy or overblown.

 

I still think this is among my top favorite episodes, and probably THE most applicable to my life personally.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Pixel Stick

[Fractured 2,684]

From a human perspective, I hear someone call my life frivolous and I laugh at them. As anyone should. But from a pony perspective...

In Equestria, the one thing you do is the one thing you're good at, period. There may be multiple parts to it, but over the course of your lifetime, you only do one specific thing. It's also the thing that you love most; the thing that you want to do, and that you think you're good at, which is why you continue to do it. When ponies think they can't do that job, their life becomes meaningless, and they do what anyone would do in that situation, they break emotionally. The scrolling list is:

Rainbow Dash in Sonic Rainboom
Pinkie Pie in Party of One
Twilight Sparkle in Lesson Zero
Rarity and Applejack in most of their episodes
Luna in Luna Eclipsed.
Fluttershy in The Best Night Ever

Fluttershy is not out of character here. We've seen assertive Fluttershy quite a bit, perhaps most popularly in Dragonshy. She says what's on her mind without the cover of introvercy to hide her true feelings. Assertive Fluttershy is,essentially, Fluttershy saying what she really feels. That's the point of this episode; Fluttershy speaking up and expressing her true feelings. These are honest thoughts; she's telling Pinkie Pie and Rarity what she thinks of them in the back of her mind.

Pinkie Pie was out of character here. Specifically, her not having an emotional breakdown. Pinkie Pie is incredibly sensitive to emotional issues; she's been shown to have the constitution of a child in that regard. Her entire existence is based around making the people she cares about happy; when she's unable to do that, she emotionally flatlines. Fluttershy would have to know this; she's friends with her, and she literally saw it happen in Party of One. Even if she didn't, she's been in this situation(Cutie Mark Chronicles), and she definitely knows what it feels like. For her to still do what she did is...ugh.

To top it off, she doesn't find her friends and apologize after the realization that she did something terrible, she plays victim and locks herself in her house. The friends she attacked, the victims, end up coming back to her.They absolve her of any wrong that she may have done, and blame themselves for the incident. Instead of explaining that it's her fault and that she's sorry, she stands by and allows her friends to attack Iron Will, a character who quite possibly doesn't understand anything that just happened. He leaves, they laugh, the end.

tldr? Worst episode. Fluttershy deliberately attacks two of the most sensitive characters in FIM, and the most sensitive of her friends, in the worst way possible. She gets away with a free training seminar and the knowledge that no matter how crappy you are to your friends, they'll always come crawling back to you if you boo-hoo long enough, no apology needed. I hate to say it, but as far as how events should have played out, this is worse than the shenanigans in Flight to the Finish.

[Pixel Stick 927]

 

 

Fluttershy is not out of character here. We've seen assertive Fluttershy quite a bit, perhaps most popularly in Dragonshy. She says what's on her mind without the cover of introvercy to hide her true feelings. Assertive Fluttershy is,essentially, Fluttershy saying what she really feels. That's the point of this episode; Fluttershy speaking up and expressing her true feelings. These are honest thoughts; she's telling Pinkie Pie and Rarity what she thinks of them in the back of her mind.

 

I really want to challenge this.  Have you never been in a situation where your emotions got the better of you and you said things you didn't mean?  I seriously don't think Fluttershy really believed what she was saying - or that any deep part of her truly felt it.  Just as you wouldn't mean it if you got angry at your best friend and told them that you wanted them to die in a car crash or something to that effect.

 

If you do subscribe to the notion that this was an expression of how Fluttershy truly felt, then I can see why you'd think it was a bad episode, since it's very much against her Element, and thus she would have been written very poorly here.  But I have a really hard time seeing it that way.

 

Also, I don't think comparing her behavior here to her standing up to the dragon in Dragonshy is a fair comparison - in that situation, she was defending her friends against the dragon, who had clearly assaulted them (even if Rainbow Dash kinda deserved it).  That's a different situation, and one in which she's justifiably angry.  She found courage there.  The situation in PYHD is very different, with different motivations.

 

 

 

Fluttershy deliberately attacks two of the most sensitive characters in FIM, and the most sensitive of her friends, in the worst way possible. She gets away with a free training seminar and the knowledge that no matter how crappy you are to your friends, they'll always come crawling back to you if you boo-hoo long enough, no apology needed.

 

I honestly also disagree here.  First off, because of my reasoning further up, I don't think Fluttershy insulted her friends deliberately.  She reacted poorly to a flood of emotions that surfaced unexpectedly with her newfound courage.  And second, I think she was right to refuse to pay Iron Will - his techniques didn't work.  Perhaps the core of the lesson did make it through in the end, but that doesn't mean she should be required to pay when his guarantee is "100% satisfaction".

 

Lemme put it this way: If you signed up for a driver's education course, and they guaranteed 100% satisfaction, would you want to pay them the full rate when your instructor yelled and screamed at you and taught you how to be an aggressive jerk?

 

And her friends weren't "crawling back" to her - they came to try to work things out, having given her some time to cool off and also cooling off themselves.  They also realized that this was very much unlike her, and had that been me in that situation, I'd have wanted to find out if that was just a one-off emotional release or if she really had become a different person.  I see that very different than the kind of co-dependent relationship you described.  And she did make things right with them in the end.

 

If I may be so bold, my theory is that Fluttershy's behavior hit awfully close to home for a lot of people.  It certainly felt very real and very believable to me when I saw it the first time - I was taken aback by it too.  But having been in that situation several times on both ends of the conversation, I thought they approached this subject very well.

[ponytheorist 181]

Why is that going too far? Rarity and Pinkie were insulted, sure, but they were also perceptive enough to realize that this wasn't normal for Fluttershy, and that this wasn't the way she really felt. If you're good friends with someone, you understand them well enough to know when they're out of character and you can more easily forgive. It's when someone truly HAS changed for the worse that you consider otherwise.

 

To be perfectly honest, when you say that the episode went too far by having Rarity and Pinkie forgive Fluttershy without hesitation, it makes me wonder why you find that difficult to relate to. I learned to forgive and not hold grudges, so I found this a refreshingly GOOD example of how to be a good friend.

 

While I can see what you mean here, I don't agree. Sure, it wasn't the real Fluttershy that said all those things, but she did say them. If someone would teach me how to use a gun, and I would kill someone, then I cannot blame the person that learned me how to shoot. I was the person that shot someone

 

 

I disagree. Iron Will is not a traditional villain, and in fact I don't believe he's a true villain at all. He had good intentions and some reasonable self-interest (making money), and his methods were simply flawed. But comparing him to, say, King Sombra, would be too big a stretch.

 

 

I totally agree with this. Iron Will isn't a villain. That's why I don't like it how the episode tries to show us that he is a villain. Right after Fluttershy insulted Pinkie and Rarity, Rarity says:''I can't believe what that monster Iron Will has done to you'' That's what the episode tries to show. And like I said earlier, I don't think Fluttershy is innocent in this. She did those things, and not Iron Will, but somehow its his fault

 

Maybe I'm a little to hard on Fluttershy in this episode because I can't relate to her (i'm not shy at all) But this episode just rubs me the wrong way

Edited August 2, 2014 by ponytheorist

[Pixel Stick 927]

While I can see what you mean here, I don't agree. Sure, it wasn't the real Fluttershy that said all those things, but she did say them. If someone would teach me how to use a gun, and I would kill someone, then I cannot blame the person that learned me how to shoot. I was the person that shot someone

Of course, and I'm not saying Fluttershy was innocent. She certainly was the one who insulted and hurt her friends. But she did it in part as a result of Iron Will's training. And Rarity and Pinkie saw that this was her acting out his training combined with her emotional rush. I think that's why they so easily forgave her.

 

I totally agree with this. Iron Will isn't a villain. That's why I don't like it how the episode tries to show us that he is a villain. Right after Fluttershy insulted Pinkie and Rarity, Rarity says:''I can't believe what that monster Iron Will has done to you'' That's what the episode tries to show. And like I said earlier, I don't think Fluttershy is innocent in this. She did those things, and not Iron Will, but somehow its his fault

 

Maybe I'm a little to hard on Fluttershy in this episode because I can't relate to her (i'm not shy at all) But this episode just rubs me the wrong way

I don't think they were painting Iron Will as a villain quite that much. Yes, Rarity and Pinkie both referred to him as a monster, but Fluttershy made it clear toward the end that her behavior was HER fault, not his. And when she changed it at the end, she not only made things right with her friends, but she taught Iron Will a lesson too.

 

I think that's what distinguishes Iron Will from a regular villain. He shows that his motivation really is to run a business, not to abuse ponies, and that he's willing to honor his word and make adjustments as needed. A villain typically won't do that. Had he refused to budge and required "vanquishing", he'd clearly be a villain.

 

I do think you're being a bit harsh on Fluttershy - totally understand not being able to relate, but that's one of the great things about this show - each of the mane 6 have individual originality quirks that someone can relate to, and their interpersonal relationships are also relatable. I like how this doesn't just focus on personalities, but also the interactions and conflicts that come with friendship.

[Fractured 2,684]

I really want to challenge this.  Have you never been in a situation where your emotions got the better of you and you said things you didn't mean?  I seriously don't think Fluttershy really believed what she was saying - or that any deep part of her truly felt it.  Just as you wouldn't mean it if you got angry at your best friend and told them that you wanted them to die in a car crash or something to that effect.

 

If you do subscribe to the notion that this was an expression of how Fluttershy truly felt, then I can see why you'd think it was a bad episode, since it's very much against her Element, and thus she would have been written very poorly here.  But I have a really hard time seeing it that way.

 

Also, I don't think comparing her behavior here to her standing up to the dragon in Dragonshy is a fair comparison - in that situation, she was defending her friends against the dragon, who had clearly assaulted them (even if Rainbow Dash kinda deserved it).  That's a different situation, and one in which she's justifiably angry.  She found courage there.  The situation in PYHD is very different, with different motivations.

 

 

 

 

I honestly also disagree here.  First off, because of my reasoning further up, I don't think Fluttershy insulted her friends deliberately.  She reacted poorly to a flood of emotions that surfaced unexpectedly with her newfound courage.  And second, I think she was right to refuse to pay Iron Will - his techniques didn't work.  Perhaps the core of the lesson did make it through in the end, but that doesn't mean she should be required to pay when his guarantee is "100% satisfaction".

 

Lemme put it this way: If you signed up for a driver's education course, and they guaranteed 100% satisfaction, would you want to pay them the full rate when your instructor yelled and screamed at you and taught you how to be an aggressive jerk?

 

And her friends weren't "crawling back" to her - they came to try to work things out, having given her some time to cool off and also cooling off themselves.  They also realized that this was very much unlike her, and had that been me in that situation, I'd have wanted to find out if that was just a one-off emotional release or if she really had become a different person.  I see that very different than the kind of co-dependent relationship you described.  And she did make things right with them in the end.

 

If I may be so bold, my theory is that Fluttershy's behavior hit awfully close to home for a lot of people.  It certainly felt very real and very believable to me when I saw it the first time - I was taken aback by it too.  But having been in that situation several times on both ends of the conversation, I thought they approached this subject very well.

This entire episode's point is Fluttershy being tired of being abused, and taking revenge on the people that screwed her over. The gardener that kept overwatering her plants, the shop owners that apparently take advantage of her every day... she's going around telling people her honest thoughts, the stuff that she's been bottling up. Now, when it's her friends, she gets this stuff off the top of her head? I don't buy it. Honestly, I think that scenario applies more to Dragonshy, where she was just throwing things off of the top of her head.

 

I'm going to say that she should definitely have paid Iron Will. Using your example, that driving instructor who's an aggressive jerk actually taught you how to drive. No matter someone's attitude, you got something out of it, and the results were successful, so he should be paid. It's also more important here, since it's advice, not something you can return. If Iron Will let everybody take advice from him and then refuse to pay because "they weren't satisfied", they'd be out of a job.

 

Of course, and I'm not saying Fluttershy was innocent. She certainly was the one who insulted and hurt her friends. But she did it in part as a result of Iron Will's training. And Rarity and Pinkie saw that this was her acting out his training combined with her emotional rush. I think that's why they so easily forgave her.

 

 

I don't think they were painting Iron Will as a villain quite that much. Yes, Rarity and Pinkie both referred to him as a monster, but Fluttershy made it clear toward the end that her behavior was HER fault, not his. And when she changed it at the end, she not only made things right with her friends, but she taught Iron Will a lesson too.

 

I think that's what distinguishes Iron Will from a regular villain. He shows that his motivation really is to run a business, not to abuse ponies, and that he's willing to honor his word and make adjustments as needed. A villain typically won't do that. Had he refused to budge and required "vanquishing", he'd clearly be a villain.

 

I do think you're being a bit harsh on Fluttershy - totally understand not being able to relate, but that's one of the great things about this show - each of the mane 6 have individual originality quirks that someone can relate to, and their interpersonal relationships are also relatable. I like how this doesn't just focus on personalities, but also the interactions and conflicts that come with friendship.

I really want to know where Fluttershy said it was her fault. I also want to know where she made reprimands or did anything to suggest she was sorry, to her friends, or the people she hurt. She actually came out of this on a high note; she learned to stand up for herself, and Angel Bunny listens to her.

 

I know that people relate to Fluttershy in this episode, and I can understand that. However, going purely by the ideas of the show, by Equestrian ideology, it's just too mean. Fluttershy does way too much and receives way too little punishment. This is the same thing that happened in A Bird in the Hoof. 

[ponytheorist 181]

Of course, and I'm not saying Fluttershy was innocent. She certainly was the one who insulted and hurt her friends. But she did it in part as a result of Iron Will's training. And Rarity and Pinkie saw that this was her acting out his training combined with her emotional rush. I think that's why they so easily forgave her.

Also, another thing I didn't like about the episode was ponyville. Ponyville seems way to mean- spirited in the episode. Ponyville is a small village where everybody knows everybody. That Ponyville is suddenly changed so easily is a sign of bad writing (Merriwether Williams has a tendency to change things in the world to fit the story)

But I can understand why people like the episode. I just didn't like it

[Pixel Stick 927]

This entire episode's point is Fluttershy being tired of being abused, and taking revenge on the people that screwed her over. The gardener that kept overwatering her plants, the shop owners that apparently take advantage of her every day... she's going around telling people her honest thoughts, the stuff that she's been bottling up. Now, when it's her friends, she gets this stuff off the top of her head? I don't buy it.

Okay, suppose she really does think both Pinkie and Rarity are wasting their lives on frivolous pursuits. Again, I ask, have you never said something in a fit of rage that you later regretted saying, even if you felt it was true?

 

Honestly, I think that scenario applies more to Dragonshy, where she was just throwing things off of the top of her head.

She wasn't spouting off the top of her head in Dragonshy. She was reprimanding the dragon. I didn't see anything in there that seemed like it didn't belong. When you're justifiably angry at someone, it's a great thing when you can be clear about it.

 

I'm going to say that she should definitely have paid Iron Will. Using your example, that driving instructor who's an aggressive jerk actually taught you how to drive. No matter someone's attitude, you got something out of it, and the results were successful, so he should be paid. It's also more important here, since it's advice, not something you can return. If Iron Will let everybody take advice from him and then refuse to pay because "they weren't satisfied", they'd be out of a job.

Funny you should say that. Those 100% satisfaction guarantees are in fact a huge risk for businesses. And yes, there are people who take advantage of that. But in general, people who give such guarantees and then honor them tend to build trust and good reputations, and they come out ahead. Just look at Amazon.com - they go out of their way to do exactly this, and they have an excellent reputation as a direct result, say what you might about competition.

 

Fact is, Iron Will promised that Fluttershy would be satisfied with HIS TECHNIQUES, not just that she'd learn to be assertive. She didn't learn assertiveness from him - she learned aggression. Therefore, when she used his techniques and hurt her friends in the process, she had a perfectly good reason to say she wasn't satisfied.

 

I can see how this could be confusing when the line between assertiveness and aggression is so blurry.

 

I really want to know where Fluttershy said it was her fault. I also want to know where she made reprimands or did anything to suggest she was sorry, to her friends, or the people she hurt. She actually came out of this on a high note; she learned to stand up for herself, and Angel Bunny listens to her.

She says pretty directly that she wants to make sure she doesn't hurt anyone else with her "mean mouth", and she repeatedly calls herself a monster, even continuing to defend Iron Will on that front. The apology is implied when she says "Friends?" and the other two respond "friends!" and hug her. That, to me, is a good example of showing instead of telling, as I saw another user on this forum refer to it.

 

Fluttershy does way too much and receives way too little punishment. This is the same thing that happened in A Bird in the Hoof.

So if you get mad at your friend and tell him to die in a fire, you won't be even the slightest bit put out if that friend decided to never speak to you again?

 

I think the point of both PYHD and ABITF is that people can make mistakes and can be forgiven for them. That's what friends do. I find it really hard to believe how hard of a line you're taking on this - it really feels like you've completely missed the point of the episode, perhaps significant parts of the show as a whole.

 

This is, of course, my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. I just can't help but feel that you're missing something pretty fundamental.

Also, another thing I didn't like about the episode was ponyville. Ponyville seems way to mean- spirited in the episode. Ponyville is a small village where everybody knows everybody. That Ponyville is suddenly changed so easily is a sign of bad writing (Merriwether Williams has a tendency to change things in the world to fit the story)

You've got no argument from me on that. The marketplace was very obviously changed for the worse in this episode to hammer in that point about Fluttershy being a pushover. Further, I've been critical of how Pinkie referred to her particular brand of deception as "being assertive". I enjoyed the nod to Chuck Jones, but it was a bad example of how to stand up for yourself.

 

Never claimed the episode was perfect. But its overall message is still excellent, in my opinion.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Pixel Stick

[Fractured 2,684]

Okay, suppose she really does think both Pinkie and Rarity are wasting their lives on frivolous pursuits. Again, I ask, have you never said something in a fit of rage that you later regretted saying, even if you felt it was true?

 

She wasn't spouting off the top of her head in Dragonshy. She was reprimanding the dragon. I didn't see anything in there that seemed like it didn't belong. When you're justifiably angry at someone, it's a great thing when you can be clear about it.

 

Funny you should say that. Those 100% satisfaction guarantees are in fact a huge risk for businesses. And yes, there are people who take advantage of that. But in general, people who give such guarantees and then honor them tend to build trust and good reputations, and they come out ahead. Just look at Amazon.com - they go out of their way to do exactly this, and they have an excellent reputation as a direct result, say what you might about competition.

 

Fact is, Iron Will promised that Fluttershy would be satisfied with HIS TECHNIQUES, not just that she'd learn to be assertive. She didn't learn assertiveness from him - she learned aggression. Therefore, when she used his techniques and hurt her friends in the process, she had a perfectly good reason to say she wasn't satisfied.

 

I can see how this could be confusing when the line between assertiveness and aggression is so blurry.

 

She says pretty directly that she wants to make sure she doesn't hurt anyone else with her "mean mouth", and she repeatedly calls herself a monster, even continuing to defend Iron Will on that front. The apology is implied when she says "Friends?" and the other two respond "friends!" and hug her. That, to me, is a good example of showing instead of telling, as I saw another user on this forum refer to it.

 

So if you get mad at your friend and tell him to die in a fire, you won't be even the slightest bit put out if that friend decided to never speak to you again?

 

I think the point of both PYHD and ABITF is that people can make mistakes and can be forgiven for them. That's what friends do. I find it really hard to believe how hard of a line you're taking on this - it really feels like you've completely missed the point of the episode, perhaps significant parts of the show as a whole.

 

This is, of course, my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. I just can't help but feel that you're missing something pretty fundamental.

 

You've got no argument from me on that. The marketplace was very obviously changed for the worse in this episode to hammer in that point about Fluttershy being a pushover. Further, I've been critical of how Pinkie referred to her particular brand of deception as "being assertive". I enjoyed the nod to Chuck Jones, but it was a bad example of how to stand up for yourself.

 

Never claimed the episode was perfect. But its overall message is still excellent, in my opinion.

I'll keep this short. It's common in this show that forgiveness is worked up to. Many, many episodes focus on this, and usually involve the characters going to great lengths to prove how sorry they are. In this instance, Fluttershy had her forgiveness handed to her; she did nothing to earn it. As a point, saying sorry does not count as "earning it", neither does guilt; she cleared this up pretty well with Discord in Twilight's Kingdom. Sorry is only a start, and I would no more resolve Fluttershy of things she did because she says sorry than I would Diamond Tiara were she to apologize to the CMC. Prove that you're worthy of redemption.

 

I do agree with the market scene, but to be honest, pretty much every character was written poorly. Pinkie Pie, in particular, was described as manipulative, something entirely out of her character. 

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I'll keep this short. It's common in this show that forgiveness is worked up to. Many, many episodes focus on this, and usually involve the characters going to great lengths to prove how sorry they are. In this instance, Fluttershy had her forgiveness handed to her; she did nothing to earn it.

When has Fluttershy EVER had to "earn" forgiveness? Furthermore, forgiveness, by definition, is not earned.

 

Seriously, I think it would be far more out of character for Rarity and Pinkie to demand that Fluttershy bow down before them and beg for forgiveness when everyone, including her, already recognizes that she knows what she did was wrong and it was temporary.

 

As a point, saying sorry does not count as "earning it", neither does guilt; she cleared this up pretty well with Discord in Twilight's Kingdom. Sorry is only a start, and I would no more resolve Fluttershy of things she did because she says sorry than I would Diamond Tiara were she to apologize to the CMC. Prove that you're worthy of redemption.

See, now you're comparing Fluttershy to known villains. That's not fair. Fluttershy is neither Discord nor Diamond Tiara. Both of those characters are inherently villainous, so anyone with any common sense would suspect them when they say sorry. Fluttershy is not inherently evil - she's not perfect either, but her track record is quite good on the kindness front. So when she screws up and then does something to correct it, people are much more likely to believe she's truly sorry and not just faking it. And when you're that good of a friend with someone, you don't need them to grovel to forgive.

It's common in this show that forgiveness is worked up to. Many, many episodes focus on this, and usually involve the characters going to great lengths to prove how sorry they are.

I'm actually curious - which episodes are you thinking of where one of the Mane 6 hurts another and then goes really far out of her way to apologize? The only instances I can think of that involve one of them trying really hard involve apologizing to characters that don't know them, e.g. Pinkie Pie to Cranky. But even in the worst of circumstances, e.g. Pinkie cloning herself or Applejack and Rainbow Dash tripping each other in the race, little more than an "I'm sorry" is required to resolve things. Heck, even Celestia instantly forgave Luna - if there was ever a situation to hold a grudge, trying to plunge Equestria into eternal night would certainly be it.

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When has Fluttershy EVER had to "earn" forgiveness? Furthermore, forgiveness, by definition, is not earned.

 

Seriously, I think it would be far more out of character for Rarity and Pinkie to demand that Fluttershy bow down before them and beg for forgiveness when everyone, including her, already recognizes that she knows what she did was wrong and it was temporary.

 

 

See, now you're comparing Fluttershy to known villains. That's not fair. Fluttershy is neither Discord nor Diamond Tiara. Both of those characters are inherently villainous, so anyone with any common sense would suspect them when they say sorry. Fluttershy is not inherently evil - she's not perfect either, but her track record is quite good on the kindness front. So when she screws up and then does something to correct it, people are much more likely to believe she's truly sorry and not just faking it. And when you're that good of a friend with someone, you don't need them to grovel to forgive.

She hasn't.

 

Pinkie Pie in a Friend in Deed

Applejack in Apple Family Reunion.

Rainbow Dash in Griffon the brush off.

Rarity in Rarity takes Manehatten. Twilight Sparkle in A Royal Canterlot wedding.

 

They all caused or contributed to the problem. They all realized they made mistakes. They all went to lengths to solve the problem. Their actions spoke to how sorry they truly were. It's never expected of them to have to "earn" it, but they do it anyway because they're good friends.

 

Fluttershy never does this.She assaulted several people and attacked her best friends, a serious problem. It was also of her own volition, she wasn't controlled like Rarity in Inspiration Manifestation. She caused the problem, but did nothing to solve it. Instead, we're expected to treat her as a victim. Iron Will is blamed instead, when he had no idea what reactions his seminar would cause, and the blame is shifted to him. It means that Fluttershy is let go with a sorry, but it cheats her character when Fluttershy is not given the chance to make up for what she did wrong. It makes it seem like she doesn't really care about her friends feelings. This is mostly due to writer decision, though; when Rarity and Pinkie Pie come to her, it completely kills any chance of her redeeming herself. If Pinkie Pie had slipped into a depression and Fluttershy had to make it up to her, that could've saved this episode. Just something to show she realizes what she did,because... I don't see it.

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Pinkie Pie in a Friend in Deed

Applejack in Apple Family Reunion.

Rainbow Dash in Griffon the brush off.

Rarity in Rarity takes Manehatten. Twilight Sparkle in A Royal Canterlot wedding.

 

 

They all caused or contributed to the problem. They all realized they made mistakes. They all went to lengths to solve the problem. Their actions spoke to how sorry they truly were. It's never expected of them to have to "earn" it, but they do it anyway because they're good friends.

In each of those situations, the character in question did something arguably much worse than insulting a friend. Pinkie ruined Cranky's scrapbook. Applejack ruined a family reunion for her huge family, and destroyed the family barn. Rarity took advantage of her friends to further her own goals. Twilight, from the point of view of her friends, brother and mentor, tried to ruin her brother's wedding, though she ended up saving Equestria in the end because she was right. Ultimately, they did what was necessary to resolve the conflict. You're also talking about the characters in the group who don't suffer from chronic shyness and depression.

 

(Incidentally, Rainbow Dash does almost nothing in Griffon, except to tell Gilda off at the end.)

 

It means that Fluttershy is let go with a sorry, but it cheats her character when Fluttershy is not given the chance to make up for what she did wrong. It makes it seem like she doesn't really care about her friends feelings. This is mostly due to writer decision, though; when Rarity and Pinkie Pie come to her, it completely kills any chance of her redeeming herself. If Pinkie Pie had slipped into a depression and Fluttershy had to make it up to her, that could've saved this episode. Just something to show she realizes what she did,because... I don't see it.

And this, in my opinion, shows how you don't relate to this character. Shy people tend to retreat into their shells and prefer not talking to anyone when they screw up. They don't seek out people to make amends, because they fear making things worse. Given that Fluttershy is the epitome of shyness, this seemed perfectly in character for her. Some people need extra accommodation.

 

We're kinda going around in circles here, though. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you have to like this episode or see things my way. I'm just trying to understand your POV and, in the interest of debate, see if you can see mine.