What if Celestia was a villain?

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

 

 

And it's not entirely Luba's fault, maybe some, but not all.

 But Celestia did not force her to become Nightmare Moon. 

[blank 88]

But Celestia did not force her to become Nightmare Moon.

 

I'm saying Luna wasn't entirely responsible for her actions.

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

 

 

I'm saying Luna wasn't entirely responsible for her actions.

No she was not and the Nightmare force played a big part in that, but she was the most responsible since she made the final decision of becoming NMM 

[Hive King 2,001]

No she was not and the Nightmare force played a big part in that, but she was the most responsible since she made the final decision of becoming NMM 

In the comics, the issue leans more towards the nightmare force

 

In the show, Luna is more or less just throwing a tantrum

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

 

 

In the comics, the issue leans more towards the nightmare force   In the show, Luna is more or less just throwing a tantrum

That does not change the fact that it was ultimately Luna's final decision that turned her into NMM 

 

I know that you don't view IDW as cannon. But I was just throwing that in, in case someone would actually use IDW comic to try to prove me wrong. In case of that, I could say that when Rarity got changed into NMR she was not forced into doing so. She had to allow the Nightmare force to do so. So yeah. Ultimately Luna's decision.  :comeatus:

[Hive King 2,001]

That does not change the fact that it was ultimately Luna's final decision that turned her into NMM 

 

I know that you don't view IDW as cannon. But I was just throwing that in, in case someone would actually use IDW comic to try to prove me wrong. In case of that, I could say that when Rarity got changed into NMR she was not forced into doing so. She had to allow the Nightmare force to do so. So yeah. Ultimately Luna's decision.  :comeatus:

 

DEfinitely so, but I'm saying that coercion could have taken place in the comics

[Fractured 2,684]

and celestia was bad to Luna, she could have not sent her to the moon, maybe stone her and find a way to purify her? Or, I don't know, do what twilight and her friends did, you know, harmonize her? I mean ce,estia didn't even try to get her back down, how long was Luna going to be alone and miserable on/in the moon for?

Saving Luna would've been the selfish choice.

 

Luna was her sister, lifelong friend, and the only pony who would ever live as long as Celestia. And due to something Celestia couldn't possibly control, she was forced to choose between that and the lives of everything, everywhere. The easiest choice would've been to give up, surrender the throne, and live with her sister in eternal night. After all, Celestia should be used to outliving ponies, another generation shouldn't have been a big issue.

 

Instead, Celestia put all of her feelings aside and made the right choice. She saved the ponies from eternal night. She also saved Luna from herself; she never had to wake up and realize that she single-handedly destroyed all life on the planet.

 

The only person that lost was Celestia. She lost her sister and her connection to the elements. Later, she lost Starswirl, the love of her life, and one of her personal students betrayed her. She hasn't a single notable happy moment since banishing her sister in a thousand years.

[blank 88]

Saving Luna would've been the selfish choice.

 

Luna was her sister, lifelong friend, and the only pony who would ever live as long as Celestia. And due to something Celestia couldn't possibly control, she was forced to choose between that and the lives of everything, everywhere. The easiest choice would've been to give up, surrender the throne, and live with her sister in eternal night. After all, Celestia should be used to outliving ponies, another generation shouldn't have been a big issue.

 

Instead, Celestia put all of her feelings aside and made the right choice. She saved the ponies from eternal night. She also saved Luna from herself; she never had to wake up and realize that she single-handedly destroyed all life on the planet.

 

The only person that lost was Celestia. She lost her sister and her connection to the elements. Later, she lost Starswirl, the love of her life, and one of her personal students betrayed her. She hasn't a single notable happy moment since banishing her sister in a thousand years.

um, different universe and the sun was out too, oh and celly could have done something else like stone or purification.

 

And the love of her life? Who? Dissy?

[\/ 651]

WARNING:

POST CONTAINS MINI RANT ABOUT WALT DISNEY STUDIOS

 

 

You know the people over at Hasbro wouldn't let her be Queen Celestia because supposedly Disney makes children think queens are nasty and evil. But princesses are nice. Damn you Disney. I'd be fine if Celestia was a villan, it'd be just like Disney. Wouldn't that be great? Sure, if you love Disney.

[Hive King 2,001]

 

WARNING:

POST CONTAINS MINI RANT ABOUT WALT DISNEY STUDIOS

 

 

You know the people over at Hasbro wouldn't let her be Queen Celestia because supposedly Disney makes children think queens are nasty and evil. But princesses are nice. Damn you Disney. I'd be fine if Celestia was a villan, it'd be just like Disney. Wouldn't that be great? Sure, if you love Disney.

 

 

Queen Kidakagash, every princess in their sequel, Sarabi, Mama Odie, Susan and Lucy, the parents of every princess

 

Need I go on? 

[Fractured 2,684]

um, different universe and the sun was out too, oh and celly could have done something else like stone or purification.

 

And the love of her life? Who? Dissy?

I have no clue what the bolded means.

Turning her to stone would've been worse. It would have either meant killing her or taking the chance that her sister would be trapped alive in a stone prison for centuries, maybe eternity. 

 

Purification doesn't help at all here; the problem wasn't that she was taken over by some demon(well, fully, anyways), it was that she felt so much rage and bitterness that she was wiling to bring on eternal night in order to get back at her sister. Purification might have taken away her power, but as long as she continued to be around Celestia and the ponies that loved, she was going to continue to suffer. Unless you're insinuating Celestia brainwash her sister, there is nothing purification could do if Luna didn't want it, and I don't think she was in the mood...

 

The only thing that could've helped Luna was a complete time out; a chance to get away from all the stuff that hurt her in the first place. She needed a place where she could just be alone, and have time to herself to think, without constantly having to deal with Celestia's suffocating light, and the townsponies that adored her.

 

The moon was the best option Celestia could have chosen for her.

 

And Celestia's love was Sombra from an alternate universe. The simplest, non-spoiler way to say this is due to a long series of complications, she will never see him again.

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

Is it sad to say that Luna's punishment and crime are very similar to a child with immense power? 

[blank 88]

I have no clue what the bolded means.

Turning her to stone would've been worse. It would have either meant killing her or taking the chance that her sister would be trapped alive in a stone prison for centuries, maybe eternity. 

 

Purification doesn't help at all here; the problem wasn't that she was taken over by some demon(well, fully, anyways), it was that she felt so much rage and bitterness that she was wiling to bring on eternal night in order to get back at her sister. Purification might have taken away her power, but as long as she continued to be around Celestia and the ponies that loved, she was going to continue to suffer. Unless you're insinuating Celestia brainwash her sister, there is nothing purification could do if Luna didn't want it, and I don't think she was in the mood...

 

The only thing that could've helped Luna was a complete time out; a chance to get away from all the stuff that hurt her in the first place. She needed a place where she could just be alone, and have time to herself to think, without constantly having to deal with Celestia's suffocating light, and the townsponies that adored her.

 

The moon was the best option Celestia could have chosen for her.

 

And Celestia's love was Sombra from an alternate universe. The simplest, non-spoiler way to say this is due to a long series of complications, she will never see him again.

the sun was out, meaning, the sun and the moon were in the sky at the same time, and I meant get rid of the nightmare forces, and 1k years is way too long of a time out, 100 or 50, or 20 would have been enough for her to think, but even then...after the 1st year she is lonely because she had a year to think...then it went on and on and on...oh and it wasn't to get at her sister, just for people to finally appreciate her night...

[Fractured 2,684]

@,

Is it sad to say that Luna's punishment and crime are very similar to a child with immense power? 

I'd be more inclined to treat it as a big deal if she did, but she's never actually complained about being stuck up there. As far as the show is concerned it never happened; she's more concerned about her most recent appearance as Nightmare Moon than she is about spending 1,000 years up there. 

 

the sun was out, meaning, the sun and the moon were in the sky at the same time, and I meant get rid of the nightmare forces, and 1k years is way too long of a time out, 100 or 50, or 20 would have been enough for her to think, but even then...after the 1st year she is lonely because she had a year to think...then it went on and on and on...oh and it wasn't to get at her sister, just for people to finally appreciate her night...

"Did you really think I would stand idly by while they all bask in your precious light?" (Princess Twilight Sparkle)

Luna's entire life at that point was focused on getting people to notice she was her sister's equal. It's the entire reason she attacked her; she was tired of being in her sister's shadow, and being ignored while Celestia got all the praise/

 

And I don't want to trivialize this, but Luna wasn't suffering all that much. She was stuck on what may as well be her child. She had the denizens of the moon for company, and they became her first friends. She also apparently spent a lot of time playing chess. To this day, I have still yet to hear her treat being stuck on the moon like a big issue.

[SilverStarApple 849]

Celestia could easily be twisted into a villain.

 

Why doesn't she usually turn Pegasi into Alicorns, and why was her school designed for Unicorns? Because if she wanted good flyers, she'd call the Wonderbolts. She'd rather have super-strong Unicorn artillery on her side, Unicorns who Ascend and pick up wings they'll never need to use because they'll be carried everywhere.

 

Machiavellian power-playing control-freak who needs to keep absolute control on the reins of the world. There can be no group of sun-moving Unicorns, there is her. There is no Luna, there is her.

 

There is no progress, which could threaten her absolute control with the scary prospect of change and a loss of control. There is harmony. All things are content. If you're not content, you work harder and get promoted and kiss flanks and climb up the pyramid and serve Celestia until you get enough cool stuff to make you content.

 

And when Luna is due to return from Moon-Exile?

 

Celestia prepares, training assorted powerful Unicorns from birth with her "School", raising them to love and adore and revere her like Twilight ad agree with just about anything she'll say, while also getting enough info and intelligence and power to make a good protegee/backup ruler and more importantly, a good pawn/crony. No, a pawn is too soft a word... Twilight is Celestia's Queen, and Celestia is the King on the chessboard she's painted with smiley faces.

 

By the time Luna came back? Celestia had the WHOLE WORLD turning their fear of Luna/Nightmare Moon into a NATIONAL HOLIDAY, AND she had Twilight and the Elements of Harmony on her side ready to blast her the second Luna gets mad and seems to be going Nightmare Mode again. Maybe this is why Luna was strangely absent during the Changeling Siege of Canterlot? Luna decided that if she wants all the power, she can have all the responsibility, Cooler-style. I daresay Luna may be about... twenty percent Cooler.

 

>YEEAAAHHHHH.gif

 

Regardless, by the time Luna came back, Celestia held ALL the cards, so there's no way Luna could challenge her, in any way. She'd also had a thousand years of practice, growth, and secret training, ensuring that she'd effortlessly defeat Luna in a physical or magical battle. And she also had Princess Cadence on her side, somepony who could control love.

 

The power of love.

 

CONTROLLING LOVE.

 

Why is this scary? How would a lame-ass love power be useful, except for "Power of Love Beams/Blasts" and "Harley Quinn with a Violet Lantern Ring" scenarios, maybe the occasional "Squirrel Girl does something cool"/"Captain Planet's Heart One Gets Serious" moment?

 

Tell me... How did Twilight's parents meet?

 

How did their Grandparents meet?

 

How did their great-grandparents meet? And theirs? And theirs?

 

You've played Dragon Quest Monsters Joker. You've mixed parents and grandparents and great-grandparents to have the ultimate monster, then you repeated the process two more times, and that was in a ninety-hour game.

 

You've played Pokemon. You've tried out Breeding and Natures and EV and IV training and Egg Moves, going into complex routines and fighting specific enemies to raise the ultimate monster to use against the monsters wielded by others. You had quite a bit of time for that game, and you had space on your team for six.

 

Now imagine that you're immortal and ageless, and you have a lot of free time, there is no limit to how many ponies and allies and monsters you can have working for you and standing on your side, and not only can you freely breed the best pokemon instantly, but you can set up your own academies and schools and Flight Schools and Celestia's Schools to search for the best ponies to make better foals, taking the absolute best under your wings as your new pawns. And those pawns can be used in real-life against your enemies, and nobody will bat an eye.

 

Suddenly, Cadence's Geass-level "Make anypony love anypony" spell she can cast casually while showing off to Twilight as if the idea of bickering couples offends her love Alicorn OCD senses(The same super-senses we see Twilight demonstrating when Applejack knocked over her ink pot to get her attention away from the book in Spike At Your Service) and she brainwashes that couple into loving again with the same level of practiced casualness you'd see with someone adjusting their hat or glasses... becomes horrifying.

 

Just how far back and how deep does her manipulation go?

 

If that mirror was what convinced Celestia that Sunset Shimmer had gone off the deep end, why was that mirror never showed to Twilight?

 

What happened to all her other students at that school? Did they graduate and leave, as if it's pretending to be an ordinary college/university?

 

How long has she been playing Equestria like they're all part of her little game, all to keep power and amuse herself, interspersing her position-enhancing power-plays with Trollestia and possible "the other Celestia" antics.

 

She may not twirl her moustache.

 

She may not want to destroy the world.

 

She may not build huge statues of herself.

 

She doesn't need to.

 

This is her world. Everypony worshipping her, they are her statues, her children, her creations through careful genetic manipulation and love-spell abuse. If Cadence can use a love spell that well, I'm sure the pony FBI/Ghostapo has a couple of similarly-skilled ponies on their side ready to make sure the right ponies end up together. The Love Police/Shipping Police/Shipping Squad. Cadence's love spell doesn't even require eye contact or for the victim to be aware of it, it'd be laughably easy to casually wait around in a certain area while you sense and target somepony else with it. Lelouch's Geass had a lot more restrictions, and look at what he accomplished with his.

 

Celestia may not be outright Chaotic Evil, but you can argue that she's the most successful Neutral Evil/Lawful Evil villain of all time.

 

But if this was Game of Thrones and I could help Twilight overthrow Celestia and help crown her in the end, with me in a high-ranking advisory position, I'd consider it. Not because she's evil. But because Twilight would be a nicer ruler to live under. Still... You could argue that Celestia's methods are effective, very effective, and a lot better than our current systems, where it's a brutal free-for-all where the rich get richer and blah blah blah, you know the rest. All good villains should make you wonder, "Are they really the villain here?". It's easy to say the psychotic murderer Joker is evil, as is the generic evil-god characters Superman fights on occasion. But Doctor Doom wants to build a utopia. And Celestia made an idyllic world of kindness and love.

 

Celestia is smart. Methocial. Careful. Practical. Skilled. Good at what she does, even if she likes amassing power upon power upon power out of boredom. A Celestia VS Ryukatsu fic would be all kinds of epic.

 

...Man, I'd make an awesome Brony Analyst.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Asquerade

[Hive King 2,001]

 

 

Why doesn't she usually turn Pegasi into Alicorns,

Cadence would like a word with you, lol

 

 

There is no progress, which could threaten her absolute control with the scary prospect of change and a loss of control. There is harmony. All things are content. If you're not content, you work harder and get promoted and kiss flanks and climb up the pyramid and serve Celestia until you get enough cool stuff to make you content.

Except new spells are clearly made all the time

 

 

Celestia prepares, training assorted powerful Unicorns from birth with her "School", raising them to love and adore and revere her like Twilight ad agree with just about anything she'll say, while also getting enough info and intelligence and power to make a good protegee/backup ruler and more importantly, a good pawn/crony. No, a pawn is too soft a word... Twilight is Celestia's Queen, and Celestia is the King on the chessboard she's painted with smiley faces.

If she was indoctrinating, I'm sure Sunset Shimmer of all people would have thrown jibes about it, being a former student. But she didn't

 

 

By the time Luna came back? Celestia had the WHOLE WORLD turning their fear of Luna/Nightmare Moon into a NATIONAL HOLIDAY,

It's been three generations at best since Luna's banishing, due to ponies' long lifespans. No, Nightmare Moon was just a dick that people hated.

 

Maybe this is why Luna was strangely absent during the Changeling Siege of Canterlot? Luna decided that if she wants all the power, she can have all the responsibility, Cooler-style. I daresay Luna may be about... twenty percent Cooler.

Or because she's a lazy bum

 

 

Regardless, by the time Luna came back, Celestia held ALL the cards, so there's no way Luna could challenge her, in any way.

Celestia wasn't even fighting back against Nightmare Moon in the past, if Luna was inclined, she could take down Celestia via being smart and simply taking the Elements. Hell, she could have done it when the Elements were locked in the Tree of Harmony

 

 

Why is this scary? How would a lame-ass love power be useful, except for "Power of Love Beams/Blasts" and "Harley Quinn with a Violet Lantern Ring" scenarios, maybe the occasional "Squirrel Girl does something cool"/"Captain Planet's Heart One Gets Serious" moment? Tell me... How did Twilight's parents meet? How did their Grandparents meet? How did their great-grandparents meet? And theirs? And theirs? You've played Dragon Quest Monsters Joker. You've mixed parents and grandparents and great-grandparents to have the ultimate monster, then you repeated the process two more times, and that was in a ninety-hour game. You've played Pokemon. You've tried out Breeding and Natures and EV and IV training and Egg Moves, going into complex routines and fighting specific enemies to raise the ultimate monster to use against the monsters wielded by others. You had quite a bit of time for that game, and you had space on your team for six. Now imagine that you're immortal and ageless, and you have a lot of free time, there is no limit to how many ponies and allies and monsters you can have working for you and standing on your side, and not only can you freely breed the best pokemon instantly, but you can set up your own academies and schools and Flight Schools and Celestia's Schools to search for the best ponies to make better foals, taking the absolute best under your wings as your new pawns. And those pawns can be used in real-life against your enemies, and nobody will bat an eye. Suddenly, Cadence's Geass-level "Make anypony love anypony" spell she can cast casually while showing off to Twilight as if the idea of bickering couples offends her love Alicorn OCD senses(The same super-senses we see Twilight demonstrating when Applejack knocked over her ink pot to get her attention away from the book in Spike At Your Service) and she brainwashes that couple into loving again with the same level of practiced casualness you'd see with someone adjusting their hat or glasses... becomes horrifying.

Except that the writers confirmed it only reeignites love that is already there. It can't make love

 

 

If that mirror was what convinced Celestia that Sunset Shimmer had gone off the deep end, why was that mirror never showed to Twilight?

Because it showed Sunset Shimmer to go insane by giving her visions of a future where she was supreme ruler?

 

 

What happened to all her other students at that school? Did they graduate and leave, as if it's pretending to be an ordinary college/university?

Yes, most likely off to study magic theory

 

 

This is her world. Everypony worshipping her, they are her statues, her children, her creations through careful genetic manipulation and love-spell abuse. If Cadence can use a love spell that well, I'm sure the pony FBI/Ghostapo has a couple of similarly-skilled ponies on their side ready to make sure the right ponies end up together. The Love Police/Shipping Police/Shipping Squad. Cadence's love spell doesn't even require eye contact or for the victim to be aware of it, it'd be laughably easy to casually wait around in a certain area while you sense and target somepony else with it. Lelouch's Geass had a lot more restrictions, and look at what he accomplished with his.

Alicorn magic is special because it involves a very specific and powerful thing, I doubt anyone else has it. Also, the Royal Guard is laughably incompetent, I doubt there is any sort of higher elite.

 

Also, as for worshipping Celestia, no one gave a damn when the CMC published their article on her. No one went berserk at all

 

 

But Doctor Doom wants to build a utopia. And Celestia made an idyllic world of kindness and love.

Dr Doom is just a prick

 

 

...Man, I'd make an awesome Brony Analyst.

Awesome conspiracy theorist more like it. You put every evil Celestia fanfic to shame with the amount of twists and impossible turns you took to ensure her evilness

[Christmasy Britty 2,553]

interesting concept I think an anti celestia would be a great villain because she would be twilight's teacher and the mane six would not know how to react to this massive change and how to combat a dark celestia

[Scrubbed user 3,416]

Season 5 intro right there.

 

Or...

 

Badass season finale.

[SilverStarApple 849]

Cadence would like a word with you, lol

 

 

Except new spells are clearly made all the time

 

 

If she was indoctrinating, I'm sure Sunset Shimmer of all people would have thrown jibes about it, being a former student. But she didn't

 

 

It's been three generations at best since Luna's banishing, due to ponies' long lifespans. No, Nightmare Moon was just a dick that people hated.

 

Or because she's a lazy bum

 

 

Celestia wasn't even fighting back against Nightmare Moon in the past, if Luna was inclined, she could take down Celestia via being smart and simply taking the Elements. Hell, she could have done it when the Elements were locked in the Tree of Harmony

 

 

Except that the writers confirmed it only reeignites love that is already there. It can't make love

 

 

Because it showed Sunset Shimmer to go insane by giving her visions of a future where she was supreme ruler?

 

 

Yes, most likely off to study magic theory

 

 

Alicorn magic is special because it involves a very specific and powerful thing, I doubt anyone else has it. Also, the Royal Guard is laughably incompetent, I doubt there is any sort of higher elite.

 

Also, as for worshipping Celestia, no one gave a damn when the CMC published their article on her. No one went berserk at all

 

 

Dr Doom is just a prick

 

 

Awesome conspiracy theorist more like it. You put every evil Celestia fanfic to shame with the amount of twists and impossible turns you took to ensure her evilness

One=/=Usually

 

One does not equal usually. Celestia's school .

 

And this isn't a conspiracy theory, and I'm not taking "Impossible turns".

 

1. Celestia is immortal, ageless, and has been around for a long, long time.

2. She would have plenty of time to create the super-soldier pawn Twilight became.

3. She's not evil, I'm pretty sure I made that clear. She's practical. Careful. Clever. She doesn't need to be evil, or do outright evil things. Everything she wants, she already has.

4. They don't need to outright worship her with huge statues and other BS. Their love for her is enough.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Asquerade

[Hive King 2,001]

 

 

1. Celestia is immortal, ageless, and has been around for a long, long time.

A large assumption. It has never been said they are immortal, they could be long lived, but not immortal. Hell, given pony life spans, it may only be 4x a regular pony's lifetime

 

 

2. She would have plenty of time to create the super-soldier pawn Twilight became

Except Twilight doesn't view herself as anything lesser, especially after the season finale

 

 

3. She's not evil, I'm pretty sure I made that clear. She's practical. Careful. Clever. She doesn't need to be evil, or do outright evil things. Everything she wants, she already has.

You're using very negative words around her, you're saying she's evil in every way but saying she's evil

 

 

4. They don't need to outright worship her with huge statues and other BS. Their love for her is enough.

What love? They like her, yeah, but it's not like she's loved anymore than any other ruler 

[blank 88]

I'd be more inclined to treat it as a big deal if she did, but she's never actually complained about being stuck up there. As far as the show is concerned it never happened; she's more concerned about her most recent appearance as Nightmare Moon than she is about spending 1,000 years up there. 

 

 

"Did you really think I would stand idly by while they all bask in your precious light?" (Princess Twilight Sparkle)

 

Luna's entire life at that point was focused on getting people to notice she was her sister's equal. It's the entire reason she attacked her; she was tired of being in her sister's shadow, and being ignored while Celestia got all the praise/

 

And I don't want to trivialize this, but Luna wasn't suffering all that much. She was stuck on what may as well be her child. She had the denizens of the moon for company, and they became her first friends. She also apparently spent a lot of time playing chess. To this day, I have still yet to hear her treat being stuck on the moon like a big issue.

oh, I know about the part where celly got all the praise, it's allways princess celestia this, celestia that, praise the sun etc...what do you mean denizens of the moon? And she played chess up there? Glad to know she wasn't bored out of her mind.

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

Because Celestia does her duties with dignity whilst Luna whined like an ungrateful child because she got slightly less attention 

[blank 88]

@,

Because Celestia does her duties with dignity whilst Luna whined like an ungrateful child because she got slightly less attention

 

ungrateful chukd? She was doing the thing she loves the most for hjndreds of years and no one even bothered to acknowledgeed it or thank her, whatever, and she got almost no attention, or not even close tk the amount celestia has, she just wanted to be loved and be an equal with her sister...I would be sad too if that happened.

 

 

Did you know Luna puts work in her night sky, you can look at it and admire it, but not the sunny sky, just clouds and stuff...blue sky.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Nightmare Jerremy

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

The thing is that Luna's perceptions at the time won't be accurate. She herself regrets it and says it wasn't justified at all. It's very likely she got attention, just not as much as Celestia

 

And your sibling getting slightly more attention is no reason to start screaming about how you want to depose them and try to kill them 

[Jeric 46,852]

@,

Because Celestia does her duties with dignity whilst Luna whined like an ungrateful child because she got slightly less attention

Which is one of the reasons why Luna is such a provocative and interesting character.