Why are Celestia and Luna considered "Gods"?

[\/ 650]

Now, to tackle this right away, the show isn't using any references to religion in any way. She's simply the most known figure in all of Equestria, as she raises the sun (and the moon for a while) every single day. Without her magic, life wouldn't exist. At least not how the ponies of Equestria know it. Celestia is thousands of years old (maybe more), and has been doing this forever. She's got a big reputation.

 

Now of course, if Celestia were to die or become ill or injured, some other pony might surface to take over her job of controling the sun, and maybe even Luna might be able to do it. But when Celestia stopped using the Elements of Harmony, suddenly a bunch of ponies appear to represent them. The idea is, there's some odd thing going on here that keeps some pony somewhere as a representative of some strong magical force in Equestria. I'm sure if Celestia died and someone took their place, Celestia would be remembered and the saying of "Sweet Celestia!" would still be done, but eventually they would fade. She can be replaced. She's not all-powerful and godly. Just special.

[yeet 2,026]

Why not is a better question in my opinion

[ManaMinori 4,144]

Because you know, they created the world, raise the sun and moon everyday, defeated Discord one time and have lived for more than 1000 years?

point me to a source that says they created the world

and unicorns- as previously stated- used to raise the sun and moon long before Celestia and Luna did.

what does living 1000 have to do with being a god? Discord lived over 1000 years. So has Sombra, and Tirek. does that make them gods, too?

[yisetab28 89]

point me to a source that says they created the world

and unicorns- as previously stated- used to raise the sun and moon long before Celestia and Luna did.

what does living 1000 have to do with being a god? Discord lived over 1000 years. So has Sombra, and Tirek. does that make them gods, too?

 

Just watched some old episodes again, and I can agree now that they did not create the world. As for the sun and moon thingy, raising the sun is still a pretty important task. Living 1000 years is also something worth mentioning, as even though villains also lived that long, they may rather be demons. Unless...

 

Just had this idea: what if Equestria royalty functioned like Egyptian pharaohs? The current Luna and Celestia are just Equestrian representatives who are considered gods, like in ancient Egypt with the pharaohs. They also both have a cult about the sun, so ancient Egypt is canon confirmed?

[P-Jay 1,987]

well, theres always the whole "everyone could die should celestia decide to hit equestria with the sun" aspect. same for luna. and if they were to just disappear, everyone would be dead in about a year. EVERYONE depends on them for survival.

[ManaMinori 4,144]

well, theres always the whole "everyone could die should celestia decide to hit equestria with the sun" aspect. same for luna. and if they were to just disappear, everyone would be dead in about a year. EVERYONE depends on them for survival.

-siiiiigh- That wouldn't happen, unless Celestia literally lost her mind, and that in itself would very likely also never happen. =Jourhnal of the Two Sisters states that Celly and Luna oversee Equestria as GUARDIANS. If you're the guardian of other people/ ponies, you wouldn't send a giant star plummeting at them, to kill everyone. =_=

And even if they didn't send giant space objects to the face of every pony in their land (and every other race in the world, along with it, because we know it wouldn't be just hitting Equestria), even if they simply resigned and went away, giving up their thrones, titles, and duties of raising the sun and moon- NOPONY WOULD DIE. Know why? Because Twilight has managed the celestial bodies before. Because- and again- according to the Journal- Unicorns have raised them, also in the past. And along with that, unicorns also have their own theories on how Alicorn magic works, so it's VERY likely that the ones with enough magic to do their own version of Alicorn magic without actually BEING an alicorn, CAN very well handle things just fine, if something happened to the pony sisters.

Also, none of what you said lends support to why Celestia and Luna might be considered Gods. 1: Any being with enough magic could do that same thing and 2: Ponies wouldn't need gods around to survive, when they've done well on their own, before celestia and Luna had even been born

[P-Jay 1,987]

-siiiiigh- That wouldn't happen, unless Celestia literally lost her mind, and that in itself would very likely also never happen. =Jourhnal of the Two Sisters states that Celly and Luna oversee Equestria as GUARDIANS. If you're the guardian of other people/ ponies, you wouldn't send a giant star plummeting at them, to kill everyone. =_=

And even if they didn't send giant space objects to the face of every pony in their land (and every other race in the world, along with it, because we know it wouldn't be just hitting Equestria), even if they simply resigned and went away, giving up their thrones, titles, and duties of raising the sun and moon- NOPONY WOULD DIE. Know why? Because Twilight has managed the celestial bodies before. Because- and again- according to the Journal- Unicorns have raised them, also in the past. And along with that, unicorns also have their own theories on how Alicorn magic works, so it's VERY likely that the ones with enough magic to do their own version of Alicorn magic without actually BEING an alicorn, CAN very well handle things just fine, if something happened to the pony sisters.

Also, none of what you said lends support to why Celestia and Luna might be considered Gods. 1: Any being with enough magic could do that same thing and 2: Ponies wouldn't need gods around to survive, when they've done well on their own, before celestia and Luna had even been born

*overkill* *spoilers* *backs away*

[Prince Firemane 309]

To me, labeling them as goddesses seems like it's missing something, but at the same time, labeling them as not goddesses seems like it's also missing something. It's had to pin down. I've skimmed the Journal of the Two Sisters,  so I don't remember any specific mentioning of other Alicorns; but I don't really consider it canon anyway, so I guess that's moot for me. But taking Cadance and Twilight in comparison, it seems that Celestia and Luna are a cut above the rest, able to move celestial bodies across the sky every day for well over a thousand years for one; even a large number of Unicorns couldn't keep that up. If I remember the Journal correctly, raising the Sun and the Moon was causing Unicorns to drain their magic, suggesting that Unicorns have a finite amount of magic or access to magic that can be burnt out. Celestia and Luna, however quite obviously don't.  But, since we've never seen Cadance and Twilight use magic on that scale for that amount of time, we really don't know how they hold up against Celestia and Luna. One could argue that they're still young, Twilight especially. But to me, it just seems like its something more than that.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

-siiiiigh- That wouldn't happen, unless Celestia literally lost her mind, and that in itself would very likely also never happen. =Jourhnal of the Two Sisters states that Celly and Luna oversee Equestria as GUARDIANS. If you're the guardian of other people/ ponies, you wouldn't send a giant star plummeting at them, to kill everyone. =_=

And even if they didn't send giant space objects to the face of every pony in their land (and every other race in the world, along with it, because we know it wouldn't be just hitting Equestria), even if they simply resigned and went away, giving up their thrones, titles, and duties of raising the sun and moon- NOPONY WOULD DIE. Know why? Because Twilight has managed the celestial bodies before. Because- and again- according to the Journal- Unicorns have raised them, also in the past. And along with that, unicorns also have their own theories on how Alicorn magic works, so it's VERY likely that the ones with enough magic to do their own version of Alicorn magic without actually BEING an alicorn, CAN very well handle things just fine, if something happened to the pony sisters.

Also, none of what you said lends support to why Celestia and Luna might be considered Gods. 1: Any being with enough magic could do that same thing and 2: Ponies wouldn't need gods around to survive, when they've done well on their own, before celestia and Luna had even been born

Me thinks you're taking this a tad too personally.

 

Besides, Apollo gave the reigns of his chariot to his very mortal son, so gods bequeathing their duties to mortals doesn't invalidate their status.

 

Again, it goes back to the original argument, it depends on how one defines a god within the fictional context.

[Jonny Music 3,314]

Have you all forgotten this obvious fact?

 

MLP:FiM is a fantasy-fiction! I know this, yet I still like the show what it is (I've skimmed through most of the thread, so I might not have seen others who might have posted similar posts).

 

As a Christian, I would not want to mix Christianity with MLP. It just doesn't seem right, which is why I keep them separate.

 

However I should confess that I do find this picture down below cute imo :

 

[Steel Accord 6,658]

 

210204__safe_fluttershy_holding+ponies_jesus+christ_jesus.jpg

 

Awwwwww that's adorable! 

 

Why wouldn't you want to mix the two though? Tolkien and Lewis both applied their own Christian backgrounds to their respective fictional fantasies.

[Jonny Music 3,314]

Awwwwww that's adorable! 

 

Why wouldn't you want to mix the two though? Tolkien and Lewis both applied their own Christian backgrounds to their respective fictional fantasies.

It can be done. It just has to be done in the right and most appropriate manner. Because if something like that is not done right, it can spread some misconceptions and controversies that I'd rather avoid.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

It can be done. It just has to be done in the right and most appropriate manner. Because if something like that is not done right, it can spread some misconceptions and controversies that I'd rather avoid.

 

Fair enough. Plus, as I've been trying to lay out to Muffin, it's clear the deific model in Equestria comes more from classical theology rather than the modern idea of a true and ineffable cosmic archetype.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Steel Accord

[ArcheoPony 76]

They are "gods" in a sense similar to a roman or egyptian deity. They aren't all knowing, all powerful omnipotent beings. They are just highly magically powered, and in any society beings with mystical powers are regarded as some brand of special. And if they somehow influence the routine, like Celestia and Luna with the sun and moon, they do get some sort of reverence.

 

Try looking at it from a mythological perspective and not so much a religious one.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

They are "gods" in a sense similar to a roman or egyptian deity. They aren't all knowing, all powerful omnipotent beings. They are just highly magically powered, and in any society beings with mystical powers are regarded as some brand of special. And if they somehow influence the routine, like Celestia and Luna with the sun and moon, they do get some sort of reverence.

 

Try looking at it from a mythological perspective and not so much a religious one.

 

Although the line on which that second part veers can be a little blurry for some. Some thousands of years from now, Jesus Christ might be right alongside Zeus in terms of being regarded as "mythology." (Even if He is a historical person, so was King Arthur.)

 

Just as much, how many times have you heard of "Native American mythology" where practicing shaman still exist?

 

Even still, the Books of Genesis and Revelations have many traits of mythology and even being called such.

 

I agree though, Celestia, Luna, Discord, etc. are all in the vein of classical deities rather than the modern perception of such a being as ultimate Divinity.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Castle Bleck 19,213]

If anything, the Tree Of Harmony's the closest thing to a "god."

[Steel Accord 6,658]

If anything, the Tree Of Harmony's the closest thing to a "god."

 

BING BING BING We have a winner!

 

Yes, I think the Tree of Harmony is the actual divinity in Equestria. Kalpavriksha, the Banyan, Yggdrasil, trees have long been symbols of significance in religious mythology often seen as primordial and sources of gifts. Sound familiar?

 

The Tree predates Celestia and Luna clearly, until contradicted, it might even pre-date Discord. He at least felt threatened enough by it to take countermeasures. It's fruit was given and passed down to whatever guardians it deemed were worthy to protect the very concept of Harmony.

[Jonny Music 3,314]

BING BING BING We have a winner!

You mean, DING DING DING!?

 

LOL! XD

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,153]

If anything, the Tree Of Harmony's the closest thing to a "god."

 

Huh, never even considered that! If that is even remotely true it would fit in perfectly...feels like a train of logic just hit me. ^^

[Batbrony 15,994]

Quite frankly, it makes me uncomfortable, as I don't feel it right seeing them as such, personally. I feel it falls under the whole Christian commandment of not worshiping false gods/ idols.

 

But that aside, I also believe that they just ARE NOT gods, nor do they deserve to be called such. While I am aware that on 2 occasion, in MLP, 2 ponies use Celestia's name as replacement for "God" (which also rubbed me the wrong way), in the context of "As Celestia as my witness _" yadda yadda yadda. Which was, in fact, a quote parodied from "Little House on the Prairie", so I can give that some leeway, since parodies/ lines from other media is something G4 has done from the start.

 

Outside of that, though, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to claim Celestia and Luna as Gods. Yes, they may be long lived, but they haven't been around from the very beginning. The journal of the Two Sisters confirms that. Many episodes show that they also aren't infallible, and can fall and fail to villains. (Chrysalis, Nightmare Moon) Nor are they immortal, and no form of pony media we've been given confirms their immortality. In fact, the Journal of the Two Sisters, Celestia states that Alicorns simply age at a different rate than other ponies. The ONLY time the subject of immortality is EVER brought up in MLP, is in the "Daring Do and the Eternal Flower" book, by G.M. Berrow, which gives detail about a rare to find flower that- when consumed- bestows immortality to the one who ate it.

 

Speaking as a Christian myself, I don't think anything in the show's ever really indicated ponies treat them as such, nor do Celestia or Luna behave as though they are or should be treated like gods.  That said, I don't also mind when people working in fanon work (such as fanfiction) work in world building details that suggest at least some ponies do treat them like they're gods, because, if you follow certain threads of logic, it can make sense in that particular setting.  One of my favorite fanfic universes has small cults (in the more ancient, paganish sense) that engage in either worship of one or both princesses or sometimes even ancestor worship, and these function as a perfectly normal part of Equestrian society.  Obviously that wouldn't work in the show, but in that fanfic universe, it works just fine, because it makes sense that without any formalized monotheistic or polytheistic religion, smaller sects would crop up instead.  Again, that's not to say that they actually are gods in canon or most fanon, but if ponies treat them as such at times in either medium (especially fanon), I think it can make sense if written correctly.  If there were humans who are thousands of years old and wield almost boundless power, I'm pretty sure at least some people eventually would treat them like gods too, even if they weren't.

 

Also, again, speaking as a Christian, I don't ever really watch the show presuming that our conception of God exists as an entity in the fictional MLP universe.  That's not to say that I don't think He can exist in any fictional universe, it's just sometimes that makes sense depending on the setting, other times it doesn't, and even if it does make sense depending on the universe (for example, one can make a case that the Judeo-Christian God might exist in the Harry Potter universe), unless the creators explicitly say "Judeo-Christian God is an entity in this setting", it'll at best be fan head canon.  Now, if your head canon is that God exists in the MLP universe, that's fine and your choice, but I can't really conceptualize "Judeo-Christian God" as being a part of that setting.  I think there's a creator being in that setting, but I usually conceptualize it as Fausticorn in my head canon (it makes an odd bit of sense, really).

[Time Shield 402]

People can believe what they want.  Regardless of the truth, if the ponies of Equestria choose to believe Celestia and Luna are gods, that's their choice.  It doesn't mean they are gods, no more than the ancient Egyptians believing that the Pharaohs were gods made it so.  That is the easiest way to explain the treatment of the princesses and the use of their name in places where 'God' might be used instead.

 

As for whether or not they are gods, I'm going to say no, just because everything we've learned about alicorns so far seem to indicate that they are simply more powerful and longer-lived (and that in rare instances, a normal pony can become an alicorn).  In a mythological sense, they might be considered gods, since many of them were anything but immortal.  (Ragnarok is a perfect example of this; the norse gods were destined to eventually be killed).

 

On a third note, making any comparisons to our world is ultimately irrelevant, since this clearly takes place somewhere else.  This world has magic, creatures with strange abilities, a heavy focus on destiny, the ignoring of planetary physics, and any number of other things that we haven't even seen yet.  It's best to just keep our worlds separate.

 

So in that light, maybe their world has a god, and maybe it doesn't.  All I can guarantee is that if it does have anything like a god, and that is revealed at any point, it'll probably lean heavily towards the mythological sense of one instead of a religious one, and will likely be unique and not tie into anything we have here.  Kind of like how Pokémon had a particular Pokémon that created everything (Arceus, was it?  I actually don't follow it, so I'm not sure).  As someone said before, maybe the Tree of Harmony has something to do with it.  If not the tree itself, then whatever planted it, perhaps...?

[Steel Accord 6,658]

All I can guarantee is that if it does have anything like a god, and that is revealed at any point, it'll probably lean heavily towards the mythological sense of one instead of a religious one, and will likely be unique and not tie into anything we have here.

 

As I pointed out a few posts ago though, the difference between those can be pretty much academic at some points. I do agree that their divinity would be unique to the nature of their universe because it is so different from our's. The sun and moon are controlled by mortals and the planet is not circling the sun nor the moon it. (Barring one kick ass fan theory.) So everything from the very cosmos downwards is up for change.

 

 

 

Kind of like how Pokémon had a particular Pokémon that created everything (Arceus, was it?  I actually don't follow it, so I'm not sure).

 

 

Arceus created the universe and bequeathed it's maintenance to lesser deities in the form of legendary Pokemon. Mew, the biological progenitor of all Pokemon, Dialga the Keeper of Time, Palkia the warden of space and so on and so forth.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Soul Flare 403]

Quite frankly, it makes me uncomfortable, as I don't feel it rig... [cut because long post]

It really depends on what you consider a god, honestly.

 

For instance, consider the differences between the christian God and Celestia

 

God is omnipotent. Celestia might be powerful, but not omnipotent.

God is some sort of ethereal being. Celestia is a pony. The strongest on equestria, sure, but she is just a pony.

God is infallible (or so is claimed), Celestia isn't (and neither is Luna)

God has created the universe, mankind and every other living being. Celestia sure didn't.

and so on.

 

One might refer to Celestia as a god because she's incredibly powerful and also one of the very few rulers of equestria. It all depends on what one's perception of a god might be.

After all, doesn't the entirety of reality depend on one's perception of things?

 

(I want to specify. I'm agnostic, not christian. I'm simply using what God is believed to be as far as my little knowledge of the bible knows.)

[Steel Accord 6,658]

 

 

(I want to specify. I'm agnostic, not christian. I'm simply using what God is believed to be as far as my little knowledge of the bible knows.)

 

Hey, all of that checks out from my explicitly religious perspective. Besides, an agnostic is a greater authority on what constitutes God than many Christians are, including myself. 

[NavelColt 22,877]

Can't believe the number of times the 'Celestia/Luna Gods' topic has come up.
It's been said in an interview or two and mentioned in various other places, fan conceptions be damned.
 

Q: Also, are they gods in your book? 
A: No, but extremely magical and powerful. 

~Faust, Creator; show has done nothing to counter this statement since then so it still reigns true. Source.

Being flowy-mane alicorns (lineage, wisdom, pick your explanation), they have immense magical prowess, but are not gods.

Also, are you guys seriously bringing irl religion talk into a Show Discussion topic?

This is a rhetorical question. Yes you are, and no I shan't stand this.