gaming The Indie delusion

[Limeblossom 482]

Where do I have to begin with....

 

We've seen the industry evolving time to time with new technology and innovation. With the possibilities of programs like Blender, 3DS Max, Unity, Source FilmMaker and Unreal, more little developers could easily make a big budget-like game.

 

Besides little developers (Most of all called A developers when being ranked) there's also a side industry called Indie developers. Mosst of them describe them as designers who wants to be unique and special. I was openly to give them a chance. I liked the game Fez, probably because I'm a fan of platformers, and Braid was also interesting, but that's where it stops.

 

When I went deeper in the Indie industry I found more unlikeable parts.

 

One of the big disappointments in the industry are the heavily narrative driven walking simulators. Games like Dear Esther and Everybody's Gone to the Rapture look great in graphic still and that's all. Dull dialogs, no enemies to fight, few to nothing to discover, boring and hardly entertaining.

 

But one of the biggest problem inside that industry are the developers. They're obsessed with the idea that games are art, while gaming should be active and entertaining, and behave like they're holier than the most experienced developers like Hideo Kojima and Gabe Newell. And if that's not enough, they also act hostile to people who showed appreciation for their work and whine that they're entitled to our money. Look, I've no problem if you want to start a crowdfunding for your game, but they do it on a aggressive way and think we're in debt to them.

 

Not to forget that the anti-game rhetoric inside the Indies is horribly strong. It's like they're spiritual clones of Jack Thompson mixed with SJW craziness. It also explains why they throw so many political slurs to gamers and developers who follow the traditional way of game designing.

 

And they're not safe for the aftermath. Most of these indies eventually go bankrupt, lose support, see their career ending in nothingness, metaphorical executed by a gaming mob or become the laughing stock of the Internet.

 

I learned from the whole scenario that games are to keep us entertained, not being obsessed with being thinking that games should be art and that we should be thankful that gamers appreciate your work.

If I would start as a developer (even with other people), I would follow the way of game designing, make games that are both fun and challenging to play, always remember to not insult your audience and never make politics out of entertainment.

 

The whole situation around the Indies left a bad taste, but I learned a lesson from it.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Limeblossom

[Sir Xarthas VI 470]

I've actually met a few indie developers whose games have pretty much gotten nowhere. And they seem like reasonable people. Well at least the ones I've met. I've seen online the 'aggressive' devs that you mention, and I gotta say they are quite the.. well.. as*holes.

Just remember there are people out there who think they're the center of the universe (for whatever f*cking reason) and when they make something, they think that people should be honored to sponsor them, or donate to their cause, and when people don't they feel like everyones insulting them, so they go to the aggressive side of things. But I've actually talked with like 2 or 3 people that are like that. And.. well... That's how I know what I said is fact. They are absolute as*holes. But that's just a small percentage of the entire game dev community, and we just have to bear through the thorns and wait to get to the roses.

Edited October 15, 2015 by ~ Akatsuki ~

[SFyr 1,982]

See. I actually really approve of the idea of "games are art," as you don't always go into a game for excitement and shallow thrills. It's about the experience, which is pretty much the foundational principle of what is art. That was one of the major themes of my art appreciation class, really: art isn't a lifeless image, it's something that provokes a feeling or response. That's why movies, dancing, storytelling, music, and all that is art. (In a nutshell, anyways.)

After all, plenty of games are built on the premise of inducing fear, rather than excitement. Or, acting as a non-exciting, but entertaining simulation of something somewhat mundane. Again, it goes back to different types of experiences.

 

Relatedly, there's also that whole bit of there's roughly four major catagories of gamers.  The explorer, the achiever, the socializer, and the killer. You may not see much of value in the "walking sims," as maybe you find more joy in challenges and overcoming enemies/feeling heroic, but another person may look to one of these games wanting a good story, rather than exciting gameplay or "enemies to fight." Personally, I dislike how uninspired a lot of shooters come across these days, and the indie scene is helping keep my love for the potential of games alive.  :grin2: I'm a builder. I can't stay interested in shooting people down indefinitely, because it starts to feel pointless.

 

But yeah. I've seen a lot of concerning bits from the indie scene too. I'll admit that a lot of game devs aren't really cut out for it, or make some really bad moves/attract terrible publicity. But, there's still just too many good things for me to personally put down indies as a whole.  Cave Story, Minecraft, Starbound, Risk of Rain, FTL, Dust: Elysian Tail, Darkest Dungeon, Rogue Legacy, Axiom Verge... All of these games are ones I'd miss, and sometimes prefer a good deal over bigger budget, non-indie games.

Edited October 15, 2015 by SFyr

[Limeblossom 482]

I've actually met a few indie developers whose games have pretty much gotten nowhere. And they seem like reasonable people. Well at least the ones I've met. I've seen online the 'aggressive' devs that you mention, and I gotta say they are quite the.. well.. as*holes.

You must be a lucky guy to meet Indie developers that don't act as I described, but they'll probably be kicked out of the Indie hivemind since being reasonable is wrong in their eyes.

 

The whole Indie scene had their chance to make something great but decided to ruin it.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Limeblossom

[1111 1,284]

First off indie is just indie, I like a lot of the freedom they have and the games they make from it. 

[Limeblossom 482]

First off indie is just indie,

If you mean by your definition of Indie a little developer without publisher then I'm gonna sting your bubble. I see enough little and medium developers still following the traditional way without a publisher.

[1111 1,284]

If you mean by your definition of Indie a little developer without publisher then I'm gonna sting your bubble. I see enough little and medium developers still following the traditional way without a publisher.

Never said it did it just promotes them not to.

[Limeblossom 482]

Never said it did it just promotes them not to.

*Becomes a bit confused. Not sure how to react.*

Sorry, but your quote comes over as confusable. Make it a bit more expanding or clear please.

 

Edit: I just heard that another Indie developer went down.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Limeblossom

[1111 1,284]

*Becomes a bit confused. Not sure how to react.*

Sorry, but your quote comes over as confusable. Make it a bit more expanding or clear please.

 

Edit: I just heard that another Indie developer went down.

I interpreted what you said earlier as indie  game makers still make games with the same business practices as big published games. Things that "ruin" games such as dlc,micro transactions,making something to purely sell and ect.

 

While its true I find a lot of indie games trash I'm not to fond with the devs I just like the few that make a game freely,   and yes there's big company publishers that make games that aren't the typical trope.

Edited October 16, 2015 by flutersparkle

[Limeblossom 482]

I interpreted what you said earlier as indie  game makers still make games with the same business practices as big published games.

Then you probably misinterpreted me. What I mean is that Indie developers walk away from the way of game designing that the rest of the small and big developers follow. Most of their games have little to no gameplay or replay value.

 

And do you know which little developer was known for following the traditional way? Rareware. They made games with challenging and entertaining gameplay. They also didn't lack with social skills and did their best with their abilities to keep their games interesting. Years later lots of people still appreciate and play their games. Never tired to play Diddy Kong Racing, Banjo-Kazooie and other gaming awesomeness.

 

 

and yes there's big company publishers that make games that aren't the typical trope.

You mean the same boring walking simulators without real gameplay? If you mean by typical trope a game made in the traditional way.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Limeblossom

[1111 1,284]

Then you probably misinterpreted me. What I mean is that Indie developers walk away from the way of game designing that the rest of the small and big developers follow. Most of their games have little to no gameplay or replay value.

 

And do you know which little developer was known for following the traditional way? Rareware. They made games with challenging and entertaining gameplay. They also didn't lack with social skills and did their best with their abilities to keep their games interesting. Years later lots of people still appreciate and play their games. Never tired to play Diddy Kong Racing, Banjo-Kazooie and other gaming awesomeness.

 

 

You mean the same boring walking simulators without real gameplay?

Now you're hating on indie games for what ever reason not all big published games are 30 year old man with gun russia attacks now buy our day one and planned dlc that should of been there before. I could of sworn super meat boy and binding of issaic are great games all you're doing is pointing out the bad games even after I agreed there are bad games. 

[Limeblossom 482]

Now you're hating on indie games for what ever reason not all big published games are 30 year old man with gun russia attacks now buy our day one and planned dlc that should of been there before. I could of sworn super meat boy and binding of issaic are great games all you're doing is pointing out the bad games even after I agreed there are bad games. 

I wish you didn't use too much gibberish texts.

 

And the creator of Everybody's Gone to the Rapture left the industry and blames gamers and the rest of the industry for it. Way to go. She just burned the bridges down.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Limeblossom

[BastementSparkle 20,324]

There are plenty of great indie games that are both "Art" and entertaining without being walking simulators.

 

 Some of my favorite games are Super Meat Boy, The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth, Don't Starve, Hotline Miami 1 and 2, Spelunky, and Nuclear Throne. All indie games. All mostly focused on gameplay. They're also games most Triple A publishers wouldn't want to release for one reason or another.

[Guest]

I am just annoyed at these people who seem to think that Indie games will "save us" from the horrible atrocities that the AAA devs are doing. They won't. Indie devs engage in bullshit too, and are even capable of selling out, like Minecraft. My issue is that in the beginning, indie devs actually seemed to bring some interesting stuff to the table like artistic games, and reviving the old 16-bit feel of games, but now... It just feels like they are all trying to do the same thing.

 

Every other indie game is "LOOK AT THIS ARTISTIC GAME" or "LOOK 16-BIT. NOSTALGIA. GIVE US YOUR MONEY." It seems as though creativity is dwindling as indie devs try to all get the "same feel" that sells with other indie games. Everyone is afraid to try and make something similar to the AAA devs. I'm getting annoyed at how often another indie game comes out and it's the exact same gimmick as the others. "OH LOOK IT'S 16-BIT! YOUR CHILDHOOD. BUY THIS."

 

I love 16-bit games and all, but it's becoming oversaturated. On top of that, I hate how crowdfunding pays for most of these games so indie devs almost never have to risk their own money. So if a game bombs they are out nothing.

[VengefulStrudel 1,486]

Ah yes, a case of "My game isn't getting its well-deserved attention and I blame the gamers!", one of my favorites!

 

I don't think one should be given a free pass for their BS just because of their - if a massive AAA company pulls off some crap, they get called out for it, just as a moderately-sized team should, and just as an individual indie should.

 

I think it would probably help if more indies didn't come in the industry expecting legions of fans to recognize their games as masterpieces. Honestly, if I made a game and I got a small, dedicated following, it'd be a dream come true, heh. Whining and blaming others doesn't really seem like a smart idea, especially from a PR perspective.

 

On the whole "games are art" thing...well, don't really know how to comment on that, as I never cared whether or not they are, to be honest. I'd take a game with fun, solid, in-depth mechanics over an 'artsy' one anyday.

[Limeblossom 482]

They're also games most Triple A publishers wouldn't want to release for one reason or another.

Have they asked publishers about eventually releases?

I've seen that Yooka-Laylee and Allison Road (both non-Indie games) are getting attention from a big publisher, Team 17.

 

 

I am just annoyed at these people who seem to think that Indie games will "save us" from the horrible atrocities that the AAA devs are doing. They won't. Indie devs engage in bullshit too, and are even capable of selling out, like Minecraft. My issue is that in the beginning, indie devs actually seemed to bring some interesting stuff to the table like artistic games, and reviving the old 16-bit feel of games, but now... It just feels like they are all trying to do the same thing.

You're right. They where acting as the messiahs against "those evil AAA publishers". And they're falling in their own bullshit.

 

 

Every other indie game is "LOOK AT THIS ARTISTIC GAME" or "LOOK 16-BIT. NOSTALGIA. GIVE US YOUR MONEY." It seems as though creativity is dwindling as indie devs try to all get the "same feel" that sells with other indie games. Everyone is afraid to try and make something similar to the AAA devs. I'm getting annoyed at how often another indie game comes out and it's the exact same gimmick as the others. "OH LOOK IT'S 16-BIT! YOUR CHILDHOOD. BUY THIS."

Something like this:

 

 

Everyone is afraid to try and make something similar to the AAA devs.

They're really obsessed with being not like AAA or AA developers.

Look at all the possibilities like Blender, 3DS Max and Unreal 4. They could easily make a game of AA developer quality. They just ruin the chance and don't even give a crap. Most of these Indies hate the traditional way.

 

 

I love 16-bit games and all, but it's becoming oversaturated.

Games like Starfox, Donkey Kong Country and A Link to the Past are both challenging and entertaining.

They think they could reach the 3rd and 4th generation gamers who still have nostalgic thoughts about their time, but I doubt those gamers would be happy with a bunch of newcomers who're disrespecting their audience and causing fights with veteran developers and famous Youtubers.

 

 

Ah yes, a case of "My game isn't getting its well-deserved attention and I blame the gamers!", one of my favorites!

One of the forms of bad communication skills and going insane.

 

 

I don't think one should be given a free pass for their BS just because of their - if a massive AAA company pulls off some crap, they get called out for it, just as a moderately-sized team should, and just as an individual indie should.

I fully agree with you. Never make exceptions for them.

 

 

I think it would probably help if more indies didn't come in the industry expecting legions of fans to recognize their games as masterpieces. Honestly, if I made a game and I got a small, dedicated following, it'd be a dream come true, heh. Whining and blaming others doesn't really seem like a smart idea, especially from a PR perspective.

The game industry is relentless. They shouldn't except that gamers and veteran developers treat them like royals or Kim Jong-Uns. They're new and they should prove if they're worthy enough for the industry's mercy.

 

 

On the whole "games are art" thing...well, don't really know how to comment on that, as I never cared whether or not they are, to be honest. I'd take a game with fun, solid, in-depth mechanics over an 'artsy' one anyday.

Keep it the way you do. Those art games have proven to be nothing.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Limeblossom

[Megas 27,567]

I love Indie games, but a lot of indie devs can be really pretentious. I think this vid does a good job showing some of them can be like

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by ChicksDigGiantRobots

[Limeblossom 482]

@: The video does a good job at explaining what the problem is with the Indie industry. I bet one of them would, sooner of later, going berzerk and insult big developers like Miyamoto.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Limeblossom