spoiler Celestia's not incompetent (aka Lilly Peet's being unfair)

[Buck Testa 5,505]

 

 

And how is that any different than being incompetent?  If the only reason she was able to actually make decent decisions in the past was because she got help by the tree then it only proves that she can't make those kinds of decisions on her own and that she never have been able to.

 

Her thousand years peacetime without needing the elements or the tree would indicate that she does have some capability in leadership, however peacetime and wartime are different beasts

 

 

 

No, I don't expect her to perform just as effectively as she used to. But I do expect her to still be able perform on her own.

 

And she did, she found the successor that the Tree chose, trained her up as best as she could, had her find the other elements of harmony, and groomed her to become an alicorn specifically to prep her for the conflicts to come. As Twilight grows more competent in her duties and stretching her legs into diplomacy and spreading harmony the Tree increases its 1 on 1 interaction with her. You could say this was Celestia's real task all along. 

[Blackshirt Brony 415]

An incompetent solar goddess... Now that's one I've actually never heard before.

 

No, Celestia is not incompetent. She successfully weighed the strategic weakness of Equestria's dilapidated military and against all odds was able to successfully transfer her magical-jedi-kundalini-whatever to Twilight before Tirek could sack Canterlot. In addition to this, we are reminded throughout the show of her numerous victories over Tirek, Discord, and her own sister who rebelled against her. In the alternate timeline where King Sombra wages his campaign on Equestria, Celestia is seen as being able to reform her peaceful, agrarian society quick enough to wage a counteroffensive.

 

While it is true that many of the issues in the show are resolved by Twilight, this is only because it was specifically the task of Twilight to have done these things, as is implied when Twilight "did something that even a great unicorn like Starswirl the Bearded" couldn't.¹ Celestia had the insight to scout Twilight's talent and see that she was the best one for the job (We don't see the same wisdom from Nightmare Moon when she shows up to terrorize Ponyville and fails miserably).

 

                        

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP2sv9ZmSrc

 

Note how Celestia even refers to this as Twilight's "destiny." It's not that Celestia couldn't have gone on any of these "missions" herself, but rather that it would have been improper. Celestia's apparent apathy and incompetence was therefore necessary to prepare Twilight for her role as royalty.

Edited January 1, 2016 by SpiritoftheRadio

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

The Celestia hatred it annoying


"ERMERGERD, WHY DA FUQ IS SHE GIVING TWILIGHT ALL THE MAGIC, DISCOOOORD KNOWOWS, GAWD."


Pro tip, Clearly Luna and Cadence had a say in it also, they clearly knew what would happen if they gave Twilight the magic, they just didn't want Twilight to know the Truth, that she is the only one who could handle so much magic at once, therefore, she is the only one who could fight Tirek...
 

Also, the plan was in desperation... If they ran to hide, they would watch their people suffer and die with nothing to do about it...

 

Wanna talk about stupidity... Where the fuck was Luna when the changelings attacked, Celestia could of defeated Chrysalis, she has before, she just wanted to teach Twilight... 

An incompetent solar goddess... Now that's one I've actually never heard before.

 

No, Celestia is not incompetent. She successfully weighed the strategic weakness of Equestria's dilapidated military and against all odds was able to successfully transfer her magical-jedi-kundalini-whatever to Twilight before Tirek could sack Canterlot. In addition to this, we are reminded throughout the show of her numerous victories over Tirek, Discord, and her own sister who rebelled against her. In the alternate timeline where King Sombra wages his campaign on Equestria, Celestia is seen as being able to reform her peaceful, agrarian society quick enough to wage a counteroffensive.

 

While it is true that many of the issues in the show are resolved by Twilight, this is only because it was specifically the task of Twilight to have done these things, as is implied when Twilight "did something that even a great unicorn like Starswirl the Bearded" couldn't.¹ Celestia had the insight to scout Twilight's talent and see that she was the best one for the job (We don't see the same wisdom from Nightmare Moon when she shows up to terrorize Ponyville and fails miserably).

 

                        

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP2sv9ZmSrc

 

Note how Celestia even refers to this as Twilight's "destiny." It's not that Celestia couldn't have gone on any of these "missions" herself, but rather that it would have been improper. Celestia's apparent apathy and incompetence was therefore necessary to prepare Twilight for her role as royalty.

THANK YOU, The alternate timeline is the best example of how great Celestia is

First timeline: She beat Luna, Discord, AND Chrysalis on her own

 

2nd: She beat Luna, and Discord.

 

3.) She lost at NMM...

But still...


and going back to Sombras, she mobilized an army fast enough to attack the might of the crystal Empire, one that brought the war to a standstill...

[Number62 1,267]

I suppose all the other princesses are worth mentioning since Celestia isn't the only one, but it seems that most of the criticism is directed toward Celestia because she has more (vocal) involvement in the 2-parters than the non-Twilight alicorns.

 

Luna doesn't even show up in "The Return of Harmony" and shows up late in "A Canterlot Wedding", but Celestia tried to take on Chrysalis and immediately loses. Then she makes some questionable decisions in "The Crystal Empire" and "Twilight's Kingdom" with Luna pretty much going along with the decisions, though Luna did have objections in "The Crystal Empire" but ultimately does nothing.

 

Cadance gets to do something in "A Canterlot Wedding", but that's it. She's probably more of a background character than Celestia by the end of season 5.

 

In this case, the show has created (and compounded) more problems with the authoritative figures. For me, I'm just sick of being told that a certain and interesting character is important with the show hardly supporting that idea or not even attempting to peel back that character, though this goes for the other characters to some degree as well.

[Black Sabbath 2,488]

they clearly knew what would happen if they gave Twilight the magic, they just didn't want Twilight to know the Truth, that she is the only one who could handle so much magic at once, therefore, she is the only one who could fight Tirek...

What an interesting theory, could you perhaps provide some actual proof?

 

Celestia could of defeated Chrysalis, she has before, she just wanted to teach Twilight... 

Once again, could you provide some proof? Also, you make her look even more incompetent with that theory. What kind of person would risk the lives of others just so their student can learn a lesson?

[Swifty 249]

At least she said in the beginning that Luna is unfit to rule, which makes her need to go as well. Lets kill her off, too lol

 

Yet Cadance still gets at least slice of life episodes and A baby pony episode will be her next certain bigger role already.

 

Maybe Twilight goes the same way now and declares Starlight as the element of magic and orders her around from her throne to do things she cant accomplish anymore.

Starlight is more powerful and is already redeemed and befriended with the others in ten seconds flat so i don t see a problem with it.

 

omg

Edited January 2, 2016 by Swifty

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

What an interesting theory, could you perhaps provide some actual proof?

 

 

Once again, could you provide some proof? Also, you make her look even more incompetent with that theory. What kind of person would risk the lives of others just so their student can learn a lesson?

The kind who wants to have a new leader ready when her time comes.

 

Proof is the Cutie Remark, she beat chrysalis, NMM, and Discord in the sombra timeline.

[Black Sabbath 2,488]

The kind who wants to have a new leader ready when her time comes.

No, risking other peoples lives and your own nation just so that your student can learn a lesson so that she might take over said nation later is what an incompetent person would do.   

 

 

Proof is the Cutie Remark, she beat chrysalis, NMM, and Discord in the sombra timeline.

So why didn't she beat Chrysalis in the Chrysalis timeline then?    

[20% Cooler Than Cake 161]

Basically, the only thing Celestia ever does when Equestria is threatened is tell Twilight and her friends to take care of it. When Tire became a threat, her original decision to send Discord was fairly naive, as Discord would easily be persuaded. Even if she could already tell that would happen, then why not have Twilight or Fluttershy accompany him to make sure he stays loyal? Based on "Friendship is Magic" and "A Canterlot Wedding," Celestia clearly isn't powerful enough to defend Equestria, so why is she ruler? Perhaps it is her insight, as she was the one who convinced Twilight to make friends in the first place, decided to reform Discord, and made the decisions that lead to the opening of the magical box, though how well she knew that these decisions would work so well is questionable. I do agree, though, that if Nightmare Moon could've so easily stopped all of those other villains, then Celestia is incompetent.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

No, risking other peoples lives and your own nation just so that your student can learn a lesson so that she might take over said nation later is what an incompetent person would do.   

 

 

So why didn't she beat Chrysalis in the Chrysalis timeline then?    

Clearly something happened that made her lose, the whole episode talks about little changes having big effects, so maybe, she lost her footing...or hoofing when fighting Chrysalis, which caused her to lose the fight.

 

The point was in most of the timelines she defeated Equestrias threats then lost at a later one

 

Also, any leader who can turn a pacifist nation into a highly militarized land shows the opposite of incompetence...

[Black Sabbath 2,488]

Clearly something happened that made her lose, the whole episode talks about little changes having big effects, so maybe, she lost her footing...or hoofing when fighting Chrysalis, which caused her to lose the fight.

It's just as likely that something happened that made Celestia win against Chrysalis in the Sombra timeline, thus making your argument invalid.

 

The point was in most of the timelines she defeated Equestrias threats then lost at a later one

And your point is...

 

 

Also, any leader who can turn a pacifist nation into a highly militarized land shows the opposite of incompetence...

Or Equestria was already a highly militarized land in this timeline because of "a little change having a big effect". 

[cider float 2,539]

Celestia is definitely not powerful and she hasn't resolved any case for a long time. What did she do on her lonesome? 

 

EDIT: Oh my bad I mean Celestia really didn't do much, sending her jealous sister to the moon was done with the aid of the Elements of Harmony... so clearly Celestia has really done nothing. Her being good at peaceful management is all I can speculate.

Edited January 3, 2016 by cider float

[Metemponychosis 1,263]

I'm going to keep saying it and people are going to put me away in a mental institution for repeating this ad nauseam. People are going to put me in a cell and fill my blood with Haldol and I'll still be shouting this until the night shift doctor has had enough and puts one in my head.

 

People need to stop treating Celestia like she's a real person with a fixed story that can't change or that behaves like she should. The problem isn't her: it's the writers. She's a fictional character, whose entire past and present can be changed with a single line of dialogue, that happens to be in a special position in her universe that requires careful, thoughtful writing.

 

At a dry, clinical, analysis of the canon material Celestia is a mumbling idiot that doesn't fit her own character, doesn't seem to know what the F she's doing and doesn't care. Personally, I think that this is more of a problem after about mid-season 2. But the fact is that people can point to all the canonical minutiae they want and the cold fact is that Celestia is NEVER written like she's an old matriarch that has 1000 years of experience of dealing with the mess that is Equestria. What happens is that the writers are lazy/pressured by harsh timelines and the result is that she gets ignored by the plot (prompting the fandom to say that she has a hands-off approach) and when she's not ignored, she waved to the side by some ass-pull (an equivalent would be if all villains fighting Superman, from street thug to whatever, had kryptonite in hand all the time).

 

It doesn't help that villains tend to come from past fights with her (and Luna) only to be finally dealt with because Twilight is the Princess of Awesomeness. It also doesn't help that we get to see the other princesses actually doing things right and being successful, so when they fail, it doesn't look like that all they do is fail. It's like... If Celestia was attempting to fix the water pipe from Princess Spike, the thing would blow again, in her face.

[Number62 1,267]

See, that's the problem. If the creative team isn't going to do anything with Celestia, why even put her in the show? She has some important connection and relationship with Twilight, not to mention an import ant role in Equestria, but little to nothing has came out of that. Some may argue that Twilight's parents are important figures in her life but don't get much screentime, and no one is complaining about that. That's true, but they have never been important to any story being told. This is obviously not quite the case with Princess Celestia.

 

The show would be better off with the Mane 6 not having any kind of connection to the alicorn sisters so the "epic" stories don't have to exist and fail to deliver. Celestia and Luna could still exist as rulers and protectors, but the show would also stick to slice-of-life since those stories are definitely much better. I wouldn't as demanding to see somepony blast something into oblivion.

 

These people are professionals, but the 2-parters quite often play out like a bad fanfic, especially upon rewatch. I don't know how they can't figure a way to make the authorities important in these high stakes stories.

[Metemponychosis 1,263]

@,

Because she already was in the show and is a part of it. There are people that like this character. Removing her seems more problematic, and dare I say, disrespectful to the previous canon and the fandom. And I say that because Celestia did have a purpose in the show: she used to be around and notice when things aren't going the way they're supposed to go and do something about it. She used to be the one that got Twilight to do what needed to do, and that is, already, being useful. It looked like she knew what she was doing and that she was always around, making the fine adjustments, away in the background. Like the guardian she calls herself in the books.

 

Well, the cartoon shifted gears and that is also part of the problem, at least the way I see it. The world changed, and characters changed with it, except for Celestia, mostly because she never gets to do anything meaningful anymore, outside those episodes where Twilight is the one that needs to win and Celestia's presence becomes a problem, and when she does, it's some asinine nonsense.

 

Shutting the princesses away, right now, doesn't seem like a good idea because Twilight was connected to Celestia from the start (even if Cadance is the one that gets to bond with Twilight all the time there is an opportunity) and she used to be around. This is character that is ripe for development and can be used in almost any way they want, being so old and being the ruler... Any actual personality would fit her. Ugh... But what bothers me is that Luna and Cadance (and obviously Twilight) are princesses and get to be useful, from small ways to important ways. I'm convinced that someone in production just hates Celestia.

 

Finally, I don't think that the show needs to keep strictly to slice of life. I think that it's better at that, but I think that it should just be more careful with epic nonsense. Though I think that Celestia would benefit heavily from a slice of life episode centered around her. Or with her being the co-star. It would be an excellent venue to show what is it that she does and that she's good at it. But after the last episode, I don't see any fixing for Celestia as a character.

[Number62 1,267]

@,

Because she already was in the show and is a part of it. There are people that like this character. Removing her seems more problematic, and dare I say, disrespectful to the previous canon and the fandom. And I say that because Celestia did have a purpose in the show: she used to be around and notice when things aren't going the way they're supposed to go and do something about it. She used to be the one that got Twilight to do what needed to do, and that is, already, being useful. It looked like she knew what she was doing and that she was always around, making the fine adjustments, away in the background. Like the guardian she calls herself in the books.

 

Well, the cartoon shifted gears and that is also part of the problem, at least the way I see it. The world changed, and characters changed with it, except for Celestia, mostly because she never gets to do anything meaningful anymore, outside those episodes where Twilight is the one that needs to win and Celestia's presence becomes a problem, and when she does, it's some asinine nonsense.

 

I think I was a bit more ok with her role initially (i.e. some quest-giver), but things became problematic starting with "A Canterlot Wedding" where she failed to stop the villain after personally stepping in for the first time, and it's only gotten worse from there with the stories (and the world they live in to some degree) losing too much credibility. Knowing that what her fate will be in future episodes removes rewatch value from previous 2-parters.

 

If Faust was still on the show after season 2, I have to wonder what she had planned.

 

Shutting the princesses away, right now, doesn't seem like a good idea because Twilight was connected to Celestia from the start (even if Cadance is the one that gets to bond with Twilight all the time there is an opportunity) and she used to be around. This is character that is ripe for development and can be used in almost any way they want, being so old and being the ruler... Any actual personality would fit her. Ugh... But what bothers me is that Luna and Cadance (and obviously Twilight) are princesses and get to be useful, from small ways to important ways. I'm convinced that someone in production just hates Celestia.

 

Finally, I don't think that the show needs to keep strictly to slice of life. I think that it's better at that, but I think that it should just be more careful with epic nonsense. Though I think that Celestia would benefit heavily from a slice of life episode centered around her. Or with her being the co-star. It would be an excellent venue to show what is it that she does and that she's good at it. But after the last episode, I don't see any fixing for Celestia as a character.

 

You're right that removing Celestia from the show wouldn't help, but I've already had my say about her presence since the beginning. It's too late to give her character and role any meaning since the creative team has gone too far in the wrong direction (or more like too long in no direction) especially given past events/episodes that involved her even a little. In other words, they've screwed themselves without trying, which is quite amazing.

[Metemponychosis 1,263]

 

 

I think I was a bit more ok with her role initially (i.e. some quest-giver), but things became problematic starting with "A Canterlot Wedding" where she failed to stop the villain after personally stepping in for the first time, and it's only gotten worse from there with the stories (and the world they live in to some degree) losing too much credibility. Knowing that what her fate will be in future episodes removes rewatch value from previous 2-parters.   If Faust was still on the show after season 2, I have to wonder what she had planned.

 

There is more to the "quest-giver" role than people usually think of a the face value: look at Dragonshy. Celestia is giving a quest and it's done in an elegant and time-efficient way, with a simple letter. But it says that Celestia not only knows stuff is going wrong but has a plan for dealing with the problem. Even if the plan is "throw Twilight and her friends at it". And then there is Fall Weather Friends, where Celestia is around to see that ponies are messing up the falling of the leaves, and tells them that it needs fixing. That is a good Celestia. She's not intrusive and has a place that makes her important.

 

 

 

You're right that removing Celestia from the show wouldn't help, but I've already had my say about her presence since the beginning. It's too late to give her character and role any meaning since the creative team has gone too far in the wrong direction (or more like too long in no direction) especially given past events/episodes that involved her even a little. In other words, they've screwed themselves without trying, which is quite amazing.

After five seasons, about half-hundred comics and four books,  I've completely lost my ability to take Celestia seriously. I have very few hopes, but if they "pull a Luna" with Celestia, this could work. Just find or make up something important that wasn't mentioned in the show and give it to Celestia. Bam. Suddenly, she has relevance again. And then - maybe I'm more lenient - let me see that Celestia CAN hold her own fighting big enemies again or really outwitting them, doing somethings that shows her competence at her job (whatever it is), I'd be satisfied, saying "See? She just had a streak of bad luck.". it blows my mind! This isn't difficult!

[Number62 1,267]

 

There is more to the "quest-giver" role than people usually think of a the face value: look at Dragonshy. Celestia is giving a quest and it's done in an elegant and time-efficient way, with a simple letter. But it says that Celestia not only knows stuff is going wrong but has a plan for dealing with the problem. Even if the plan is "throw Twilight and her friends at it". And then there is Fall Weather Friends, where Celestia is around to see that ponies are messing up the falling of the leaves, and tells them that it needs fixing. That is a good Celestia. She's not intrusive and has a place that makes her important.

 

I'm not against the role of quest-giver, but I know I would've gotten tired of it after the umpteenth time of (directly or indirectly) giving the "villain-elimination" job (or something of a similar scope) to the Mane 6 and contributing nothing to said job.

 

After five seasons, about half-hundred comics and four books,  I've completely lost my ability to take Celestia seriously. I have very few hopes, but if they "pull a Luna" with Celestia, this could work. Just find or make up something important that wasn't mentioned in the show and give it to Celestia. Bam. Suddenly, she has relevance again. And then - maybe I'm more lenient - let me see that Celestia CAN hold her own fighting big enemies again or really outwitting them, doing somethings that shows her competence at her job (whatever it is), I'd be satisfied, saying "See? She just had a streak of bad luck.". it blows my mind! This isn't difficult!

 

I doubt I'll be satisfied with whatever is done next with Celestia even if it's good because the creative team has also created too many stains (or in your words, a ridiculously long if endless streak of bad luck), large and deep, to clean up or compensate for.  It'll have to be one hell of a miracle for her to be fixed, at least for me.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Number107

[Swifty 249]

Looks like i'm in the middle. It would exceed all my expectations, if they pull a Luna and Celestia gets something for herself which makes her relevant again.

Then, i would be bitterly disappointed if Celestia only shows up as a quest giver and advisor. This is not enough anymore since two Luna episodes and three short, yet relevant appearances for the Cutie Mark Crusaders.

 

 

 

 

If it's gonna be all like in this video again, then, i dunno, i might give up on this pony and the writers with a loud "Auugh, fuck that shit! Mediocre! >_<"

Edited January 4, 2016 by Swifty

[Metemponychosis 1,263]

@,@@Swifty,

Let me rephrase my opinion. I think that putting Celestia back in the position of a mere quest-giver gives back to her some importance and relevance, because as a quest-giver, she is implied to be in the know of things, and that is important for her character, as the ruler of Equestria.

 

But if I would have my way, Celestia would be taking part in the big fights and in the resolution of whatever was cropping up around "Gandalf style": putting things in motion, coming around when things are getting crazy, and if she's not around is because things are crazier somewhere else and all is going to hell if something is not done. If it was up to me, I wouldn't have her solve the problems by herself (a few small ones, yes, because I think she needs that) but she would be a big part of the resolution AND she'd be in charge, telling others what to do, while she's doing her part.

[Zhortac 1,475]

Celestia is gimped, because Larson is a jackass, and keeps her screen time to a minimum. It makes me wish Hasbro was going to release some big time Celestia toy, and force them to push a Celestia episode, to push the toy.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Zhortac

[yeet 2,027]

I think instead of arguing whether or not a character is incompetent in a show like this is pretty dull. Just like the show instead of arguing over it constantly XD

[Metemponychosis 1,263]

Celestia is gimped, because Larson is a jackass, and keeps her screen time to a minimum. It makes me wish Hasbro was going to release some big time Celestia toy, and force them to push a Celestia episode, to push the toy.

I wouldn't say that Larson is a jackass. I never thought of him as part of this problem. Huh... Interesting. Do you have anything more about this?

 

But I sure like the second part of your post.

[MovieLord101 140]

Look, I think we're all thinking too deep into this. Celestia's not the main character; the Mane 6 are. Still, there's one thing we need to agree on: Celestia needs hugs. Badly. *hugs Celestia*

[Metemponychosis 1,263]

Look, I think we're all thinking too deep into this. Celestia's not the main character; the Mane 6 are. Still, there's one thing we need to agree on: Celestia needs hugs. Badly. *hugs Celestia*

Sure she isn't. But Cadance isn't either. And neither is Luna. But both characters get to be useful In their own way.