I don't think Starlight is quite as "OP" as some might think.

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Snuffed torch

So you weren’t going to acknowledge all my changes to the season in the first place and only utilized the damn thing as a “gotcha” snare. My poor feelings are hurt now. See, once you understand that you need to incorporate Mane 6 in those damn episodes, you do it, and Tibia would be better suited to accommodate them because she’s a marginal yet interesting character that needs very little active development and explanations. She’s ripe to become a vehicle for Twilight’s teaching plot and adorkable moments. And I don’t understand how Tibia changes things for Chrysalis. It’s practically the same story, but Chrysalis swears vengeance to another character. Is it better that she’s been degraded to a nemesis of a random unicorn? Also, Tibia stays in the changeling land which opens Twilight’s time for new stuff. This doesn’t happen with Starlight around. And tell me again how much Twilight has grown in Starlight’s presence, and how much her adorkable personality had time to shine in those episodes. This princess doesn’t need a remora, she needs better writing.

 

Anyway, you’re basing this rebuttal on the argument that Starlight can bring something to the story, not to Mane 6. Every character, no matter how badly it is constructed, can bring something new to the story. The question remains: is that something good enough to be worth introducing. That is the meaning behind “bringing something to the table”. You are not defending that Starlight is a good new addition to the cast; you are defending that she brings something, and that something could have been changed for the better or done by another. You and I both see that Starlight needs a lot of additional work for her to become relatable to the general public and that’s poppycock. I’m not advocating for my version. I’m advocating for a character that would be interesting, funny, and relatable to more than a few who feel the need to stuff volatile emotional issues into this show for the heck of it. And even then, the friendlessness thing is not the problem. The approach they have chosen is. And after both two-parters have been dedicated to her, there are still people who go: she only needs more work to be loved! Does she perchance need even more solo episodes to finally form her own brand of humor that doesn’t involve angst and pony abuse? Mane 6 have been funny and relatable since Episode One, and if you want another addition to their team, then try harder and put a Scrappy bag over this one’s head. This ain’t some grand story where you can explore stuff at will. There’s a schedule, and boy is it tight! I mean, Big Jim can’t even squeeze through without being properly lubricated by his passion juice.

[Ninjaed 526]

I want a plushie

 

Welp those changes can never be made canon. I did try to theorise using them as a basis though. See what it would give, if it would work. What I meant by changing things for Chrysalis is that should Chrysalis be reformed (which will happen eventually, perhaps even next season but let's not jump the gun), you'd have two ex-villain changed-ling rulers. There's a huge overlap here. Many other things would remain the same as with Thorax, though.

And I don't consider Chrysalis becoming somepony's nemesis a degradation, more like a new step for her character. Having her try to conquer Equestria for the third time would be somewhat pitiful... Right now, she's both sworn revenge against Starlight and is likely to try and reclaim her kingdom. If anything, it's adding depth to her character, instead of being random evil of the season trying to conquer/destroy Equestria.

 

Tibia staying in the changeling kingdom opens new stuff for Twilight? Nope, it changes nothing. Tibia being there changes something, Tibia not being there...is the same as before Tibia even existed. So no progress. A Hearth's Warming Tail has allowed Twilight to show her adorkable self, for instance. No Second Prances has shown even she can show heavy bias, though it's mostly based on Trixie's lack of apology (or rather, her great and powerful apology...).

 

BUT - I must say this - I think I finally understand where you're coming from. I've read a bit some of your posts where you talk about Sunset. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're fearing Starlight will be the same. That is, in the EQG movies, the focus has almost entirely shifted to Sunset, with the Mane 5 being nothing more than supporting cast here to give a quick laugh and be tools to make Sunset...shimmer (kill me for that, please).

 

So far, I must agree Starlight hasn't spent much time with the Mane 5, allowing them to shine as well. That's been part of what the Starlight lovers have been wanting as well - interactions with the Mane 5. Not just to develop Starlight's character, but also to give the Mane 5 some spotlight.

 

There...somewhat is one point I must clarify though. I agree she needs more work, but because they've failed to emphasize the butterfly effect. That's made many people find her reformation happened way too fast (and a few other things, but no need to repeat it all) and, as a result, be biased against her. That's prevented them from relating to her immediately, but those without that bias have been able to no problem.

So far, they've managed to mostly get rid of this bias (there's still some hate ofc) and people are now ready to her a chance, so I expect season 7 to have more interactions with ponies other than Twilight and Trixie. I'd be a bit disappointed if that didn't happen, I want to see the Mane 5 interact with her too. If she does take away the mane 5's screentime like you're saying, like Sunset, then yeah. Not a good thing. I think it's still a bit too early to judge though, and she's given time to other characters so that's a good thing.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Ninjaed

[The Nth Doctor 663]

The reason Starlight kicked Twilight's flank up and down the time stream is because Twilight's been bogged down with princess duties (of which she is horrifically ill-suited for) and has barely trained her magic for two years

 

GG Celestia, you neutered your WMD by turning her into a Princess

How are you still in power

Edited October 19, 2016 by The Nth Doctor

[Ninjaed 526]

The reason Starlight kicked Twilight's flank up and down the time stream is because Twilight's been bogged down with princess duties (of which she is horrifically ill-suited for) and has barely trained her magic for two years

 

GG Celestia, you neutered your WMD by turning her into a Princess

How are you still in power

 

It's true Twilight has hardly had time to train her magic. Would you say having Starlight beside her will help her fix that?

 

Also... Is Twilight that ill-suited for princess duties? She's organised and all, for example. What makes her so ill-suited to have those responsibilities?

[Goat-kun 2,528]

We’re getting somewhere.

Now who’s speaking out of their heart? You are writing this as if reformation of Chrysalis is a fact, not your own conclusion. Besides, my story would bring new lessons and quality friction into the hive. Right now, we have this particular situation where canon Thorax (a completely stale goody-goody two shoes) is the supreme changeling leader, and I bet my keks that he will remain relevant even if Chrysalis gets reformed. So instead of having Tibia casually anchor Chrysalis into learning friendship, you’ll have this timid changeling dude hanging over her head without any real purpose other than being the default good leader and Spike’s token friend. Blah! I’d turn Tibia into somewhat of a Commander Peepers to her Lord Hater (the good guys edition). And again: Tibia, who munched up Starlight’s plot, being in the changeling hive opens up a brand new plot for Twilight that doesn’t involve teaching friendship. She is now free to tackle whatever else pony princesses tackle these days.

 

Twilight in those episodes showed a few bits of her old self, but you can’t claim that this is what a main character deserves, now can you. Cameos can’t feed my hunger for adorkable content! And no, Mane 6 fans ain’t eager for Starlight interactions. They are eager to be amazed by their favorite ponies. If Starlight tags along or not isn’t relevant.

 

You are almost correct about Shimmer. Their patterns are similar. What makes Starlight even worse is that she’s been inserted into FIM that relies on lighthearted 22min episodes. They haven’t developed Starlight into a relevant contributor until now, so it is reasonable to assume they will either double down like they did with Sunset which will skew the entire season’s narrative towards her, or let her remain the same bland self. There is middle ground, but previous experience prevents me from becoming a believer. This would not have happened if they’d designed her better in the first place. It makes you think that she’s not there because of the plan but because Haber is a shitty writer who used her as a crutch to weasel himself out of a tight situation. You can even say that I’m not attacking Starlight as a concept but Starlight as a failed execution of said concept.

 

P.S: What the buck am I supposed to do with this changeling OC now?! I don’t even like changelings.

[The Nth Doctor 663]

It's true Twilight has hardly had time to train her magic. Would you say having Starlight beside her will help her fix that?

 

Also... Is Twilight that ill-suited for princess duties? She's organised and all, for example. What makes her so ill-suited to have those responsibilities?

Poorly organized if she runs herself ragged numerous times

For a pony with a list fetish, you'd think she'd have organized her time better

She's also really bad at keeping her student focused on her studies (Something she picked up from Celestia)

[Ninjaed 526]

Need a Cutie Map?

 

More like a foregone conclusion, but regardless, it hasn't happened yet indeed. New lessons maybe, others would be lost too. But what new friction that there wouldn't be in the canon story? I suppose this Commander Peepers you're talking about. I can't say Thorax is the most thrilling of characters, but I doubt he'll get much focus. That and he's had only 2 episodes so far. Hmm in fact, his lack of "personality" might be used to say "hey, I can't manage the hive, mind giving me a help fixing those issues?". Cue episodes to learn about changed-lings. Mere speculation this, though.

 

Speaking of, I think Chrysalis will either become queen again and Thorax become her right-wing changed-ling/ambassador, or she'll leave him in charge as she (reluctantly) asks Twilight (or Starlight for irony) help to better understand those ways foreign to her before she can pretend being her "new" people's queen. I just don't see Thorax as king material. At all. He'll likely be overwhelmed.

 

Back to Tibia! In fact, is there really a point in continuing to theorise around Tibia? We've pretty much both proven she could munch up part of Starlight's plot and Thorax's plot almost entirely (saying almost as there would still be small differences). And then, I say that she couldn't munch it all up while you're saying she shouldn't munch it all up anyway. So if you want to keep on discussing this Tibia fanfic, no problem! Otherwise, I think we can move on - unless I missing something?

 

Sunset and Starlight do have similar patterns, but not identical (Starlight chose reformation, Sunset was forced into it, and others...). Also, their circumstances are very different. Sunset is a character specific to EQG, without any relevance in the TV-show. The cast is (somewhat) different and this is the opportunity to explore new venues. The focus is voluntarily shifted to this new and exclusive character. Is that a good thing? A bad thing? Neither, some appreciate the change, others don't. Can't please everyone. And if they want more Mane 6, the TV-show is there.

 

Starlight is different in that aspect. This is where the Mane 6 shine. It cannot become The Starlight Show. Unless they want to sink their own franchise, they will not make MLP turn into this. Starlight is simply the change brought upon by season 5. No more, no less. Twilight became an alicorn, there was an uproar - but it didn't turn out badly after all. Same for the castle - although they do need to move things a bit now. Starlight will be there, but to help the show move ever onwards, with the Mane 6 at its helm. It might become Mane 7, who knows? But Twilight will remain the captain. Maybe past experiences have jaded your judgement, but so far MLP has delivered, hasn't it? And the execution of this concept is not failed yet. Starlight has been introduced and the hatred has started to wane, so now is when she should start playing her role as such.

 

As for Twilight not appearing that much...: (note: not counting premiere and finale)

- Rainbow Dash: 6 episodes, 3 as main, 3 as duo or more

- Applejack: 6 episodes, 1 as main, 5 as duo or more (Aj's day off counted as duo or more)

- Rarity: 6 episodes, all as duo or more (Saddle Row counted as a group episode)

- Twilight Sparkle: 5 episodes, all as duo or more

- Pinkie Pie: 4 episodes, all as duo or more

- Fluttershy: 3 episodes, 1 as main, 2 as duo or more

- Starlight Glimmer: 2 episodes, 1 as main, 1 as duo or more

- CMC: 2 episodes

- other: 2 episodes (Dungeons & Discords, The Times They Are A Changeling)

- group episode(s): 1 episode

 

Objectively, aside from the premiere and finale which were cementing Starlight and giving time to under-represented characters (Cadance etc / Discord and Trixie), the Mane 6 is still faring pretty well. Granted though, despite her number of episodes, Twilight has mostly been made "partly secondary" to give more time to the Mane 5. Though I've always said this season was giving some love to other ponies. Pretty sure they'll "fix" this in season 7 and Twilight will be back in force.

 

 

PS: wait, your goat is an OC changeling?!

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Gashunk!

So you shall put it all on the one specific reformation path that Chrysalis is supposed to have cause pattern while reassuring me that a pattern could not exist between Sunset and Starlight? Kek.

 

Being the captain and showing in episodes doesn’t mean she’s getting exposure. When Twilight became an alicorn she got her wings, she got her crown, she got her castle where she hangs with her friends, and the story was told from her point of view. Suddenly, a wild, badly made apprentice shows up and Twilight’s “progression” suddenly starts being told from her perspective. You can’t claim Starlight is like Discord or Luna. These guys get one or two episodes per season and assist in the finales, but they are never the main attraction that drives the story. Starlight got to fight Twilight on equal terms, save Equestria, and Chrysalis became her sworn enemy. If that is not a self insert OC material, then I don’t know what is. It’s funny to see the complaint that Twilight is the main star in two-parters instead of all Mane 6 being perverted in such a classy manner. Hatred around here has started to vane, but why, that is another question entirely.

 

P.S: I’m a shitlord, not a goat. I do like goats though. I meant original character as in this changeling you tricked me into creating. Guess now that I have her I’ll just repurpose the gal into a magic hunter booper with a bit of Nyx Assassin and Crypt Lord, then start trolling them powerful unicorn owners until they start throwing headsets into monitors. Myaah!

[Ninjaed 526]

Poorly organized if she runs herself ragged numerous times

For a pony with a list fetish, you'd think she'd have organized her time better

She's also really bad at keeping her student focused on her studies (Something she picked up from Celestia)

 

True, she's ironically poorly organised at times, in that she tends to fail to take into account the pony psyche. They aren't machines after all. It's not necessarily organising her time. That's how I view anyway. I guess Starlight is bound to lash out at some point, making Twilight realise this.

 

Huh, that's actually not a bad idea for an episode. Development for both Starlight and Twilight.

 

 

Wow, someone else replying to this thread

 

I had written something, but lost progress... Meh. Time to get writing! Again... So! I simply find Chrysalis's reformation the most likely but fact is, nothing of the sort has happened yet. Regardless, Tibia is so far a more interesting character than Thorax. She could make Chrysalis lose value though, as Tibia has a more established personality and would be a strong leader, instead of the figurehead Thorax will likely be. That's my fear with such a scenario.

 

Anyway, same pattern between Sunset and Starlight? I highly doubt that. As I've said, similar but not identical, especially when it comes to the circumstances. Movies set in a separate world vs TV-show following the adventures of a certain cast. This is quite factual, objective, devoid of speculations. I cannot speak for the writing staff and say they won't shift the focus, but I can say it's highly unlikely, as it would damage the show. They've sticked to the "young girls show", so highly unlikely they'll change the focus.

 

As I've pointed out, the Mane 6 has had quite a lot of exposure. I didn't count the episodes they just "appeared in" but the episodes they played a major role in. This is why AJ's day off counted 1 for AJ, Rarity and Twilight. I think I actually forgot to count Twilight in PPOV... *ahem* And you will notice something else: in many episodes, we are not following Twilight's point of view. In some episodes, we're not even following the perspective of any of the Mane 6. Dungeons & Discords, for instance, or more simply the CMC episodes.

So why is that not a problem for those episodes, but is a problem for Starlight? I asked once and ask again, is that not double standards at its very best? Well, fueled with Sunset oil. And even then, premiere and finale excluded, she had as many episodes as Spike. She's the change introduced in season 5 too, so of course she would at least partly drive the story in the next season. Just like the princess transformation, or the box, or the map. In fact, she's only driven the premiere and finale. Vast majority was still the map. She's far from overbearing as of yet. Just...noticeable.

 

Also, I can't find her bland. I can say AJ is down-to-earth, Rarity is chic, though Sunset...doesn't seem to have anything unique to her that I can immediately describe her with, now that she finally fit in and is over the "beating herself" process (omg I attacked the goddess! ).

Starlight on the other hand has already shown some of her unique personality. A perfectionnist who takes very badly to failure, sometimes manipulative. I won't mention the insecure side as it has more to do with the rehabilitation process.

 

 

PS: New hero spotlight - Tibia, the Buttkicker.

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Well, I did kinda commandeer and derail this thread. Now I want ten rare Pepes or I’ll derail it even further!

Just noticeable? U wot M8?! The premieres and the finales are among the most talked about things in FIM. That’s why I’m ackin’ so cray-cray about it. You just don’t put your so-called iconic character into the roles of damsels in a freaking finale cause #ChangeOfPace. And as I was saying: they also made Chrysalis into Starlight’s nemesis which means they could have big plans for this little runt, or they just wanted to take a massive dump on Mane 6 fans. An untalented fanfic writer with no regard for show’s dynamic would have written a similar, if not as artistically refined finale.

 

And I meant point of view as in following a pony around while they fuss about some personal problem. Twilight was supposed to learn how to teach, not how to be a piece of furniture. My bad for the confusion. Also: CMC, Spike, and Co never overshadowed Mane 6 in the most important plot of the season. You want Starlight? Keep her in the CMC-like episodes where she belongs.

 

Starlight on the other hand has already shown some of her unique personality. A perfectionnist who takes very badly to failure, sometimes manipulative. I won't mention the insecure side as it has more to do with the rehabilitation process.

That reads a lot like Twilight. Plus she too can be a little manipulative-y at times, and quite insecure. Are you sure you’re talking about the right pone?

PS: New hero spotlight - Tibia, the Buttkicker.

I was going to go with something cool like Queen’s Stinger, but this works too.

 

P.S: is that Sunset hatred I spy? She has become somewhat tolerable in LoE, but she’s still shit. Her character is like injecting yourself with barbiturates. What’s worse than watching this woobie is reading through all the mindless adoration her cult excretes onto prominent fan sites. It’s like the old Luna twaddle, but even more annoying. Don’t let this fool you though. I doubt they are as numerous as they’d have us believe.

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

 

 

That reads a lot like Twilight. Plus she too can be a little manipulative-y at times, and quite insecure. Are you sure you’re talking about the right pone?

 

 

Starlight's a manipulative, perfectionist, control freak. Like Twilight she likes to get things perfect and doesn't take well to failure, yes. Unlike Twilight she also has a stronger tendency to try and control other ponies, which she eventually became insecure about. Speaking of insecure, she is very much that. She's confident in her magical abilities, but not in much else, afraid of failure and falling back on her old habit of relying heavily on magic or manipulation to solve her problems.

 

 She's a bit socially awkward when she's trying to be genuine, not quite sure how to really be friends with others. When in control otherwise she can be very charismatic and convincing. She's intelligent but doesn't really think the possible consequences or moral implications of her actions through very well, tending to "Miss the point".

 

She's similar to Twilight, sure. I'm not surprised that Twilight would pick a student with similarities to herself, but I think there's enough different to her to set them apart. That's just some of what I've picked up from her so far, and she's still got more time to develop.

[Ninjaed 526]

Bleah, a froggy! Not doing it!

 

I meant during the season. Premiere and finale are a special case, and yes Starlight had a prominent role in both of them, as it was her first season as a recurrent character. Main (Mane?) character, this yet remains to be seen, but...she'll be back

 

Putting a main character in a damsel-in-distress situation is actually a somewhat widespread way to spark emotions in the viewers, as well as a stronger version of the Worf effect. That way, you can give other characters a turn. And yes, if they introduced Starlight as a recurrent character, it's quite clear they have plans for her. That's why she 'overshadowed' the Mane 6 in the premiere and finale. It wasn't just for the kicks, like "I'm bored...guess I'll simply throw in some random OC, might be fun".

 

We've seen a bit of Twilight's teaching issues in her perspective, but not enough, it's true. They didn't have the luxury to both give Starlight time to introduce her character to the viewers and have Twilight pondering about how to teach. So they favoured Starlight for several reasons, and Twilight had reduced time for this particular point.

I think this is bound to change though. Having an episode on Twilight's perspective unable to understand why Starlight is reacting badly as she's trying to teach her is a good idea for an episode, or part of it at least.

 

As for her personality...

 

What BasementGlimmer said.

 

I'd add Twilight hasn't really shown any real manipulative aspect. Just the usual amount, everypony has a bit of it. Starlight is much, much more. Also has anger management issues, as she can go from smiling to annoyed in the blink of an eye. And as I've pointed out in previous posts, whereas Twilight is earnest and eager, Starlight is the opposite, trying to avoid non magic-related tasks. She only shows her perfectionnist side when forced to and when she does, her anxiety disorder starts acting up - just look at how she was behaving in that "chillaxing friendship lesson".

 

In short, she's trying to behave the way she thinks others will accept her, instead of acting the way she truly is. Right now, her behaviour is much like a child's. She's right in that learning and personality-forming process. The risk is that nothing comes to fill that void as she grows out of it, much like Sunset so far. She'd still have her unique personality mind you, but it needs to have more clear-cut aspects too.

 

 

I'm not hating on Sunset, alas for you! But it'd be in bad faith to say she has a clear and unique personality right now. We don't know that much about her, what she enjoys doing for instance. Starlight shares a bit that issue, though it's quite clear she loves messing with magic. And not à la Twilight, by studying spells and learning to cast them, no. By mixing them together and seeing what happens.

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

I'd add Twilight hasn't really shown any real manipulative aspect. Just the usual amount, everypony has a bit of it. Starlight is much, much more.

 

 

 I agree, maybe I didn't word this part very well? I was more comparing her to Twilight in terms of being a bit of a perfectionist. As I said...

 

Unlike Twilight she also has a stronger tendency to try and control other ponies

 

 

 I think I could point out a few instances of Twilight occasionally being manipulative, but you're right it's nothing more than what could be considered normal.

Edited October 22, 2016 by BasementGlimmer

[Goat-kun 2,528]

The ransom just jumped to twenty rare Pepes. Each Pepe must be pristine, textless, and ready to be used as a dank meme.

So what will it be? Is it bad to push Mane 6 form the main character pedestal or is it a common and well-received practice that should by all means be employed in this show? Though you did use Worf Effect as an example, I think you are mistaking character peddling with proper utilization of a hero’s transient downfall, as Worf Effect is not by itself a positive thing.

 

Finale of RWBY S03: our heroic huntresses got noosed with an iron chain, tethered to a Grimm, then dragged through mud like a bunch of tattered ragdolls for several episodes. Still, it was the best finale in RWBY that generated a lot of positive buzz even though RT literally burned one of our ships and disbanded the heroines. Now in S04, our gals can now rise again, stronger and more determined than ever to stop Salem and her pawns. The fandom is quivering with anticipation. They are cheering them on, fretting that Yang might not recover from her depression, expressing their doubts about Ruby’s developed fighting style, guessing which two girls will meet first, etc, etc.

 

What you are advocating for is the usual fanfic routine that makes prominent main characters look bad in order to peddle either a villain or an OC. It does absolutely nothing positive for the original main characters, it breeds dissatisfaction, frustration, loss of sense of involvement among their fans, and it derails the whole story harder that I’m derailing this thread. Can you imagine the outrage if Draco became the main protagonist at the very end of Harry Potter, and then some folks would say it’s totes legit cause Harry, Ron, and Hermione had the spotlight in all the other books.

Making rants great again

So Lesson Zero and It’s About Time never happened? How about that spell she attempted to use on Discord? Twilight turns to manipulation and wrongdoing when her petty anxieties make her feel overwhelmed while Starlight uses it, and uses it successfully, for every little thing she does. This by itself is a very shallow personality trait that could lazily be attributed to some vaguely defined social inaptness which cannot carry a main character towards neither likeability nor depth. You are basically saying that she is great because you feel that she is great while offering no comprehensive explanation as to why any of her few traits would make her a good main character or a good character in general.

 

Do I need to write it down again? Main heroes need to be diverse in personality and ability. Sure, they must have some common points and interests, but they must also fight like no one else, solve problems like no one else, and react like no one else on the team. They must also share a bond, a bond that Mane 6 do possess. Starlight is a self sufficient magic machine that only needs others to define her one and only deficit in the form of a vague and fluctuating awkwardness that goes from an anxious woobie to a competent and self-deprecating leader depending on the plot. In other words: Twilight wants her friends because of who she is, while Starlight requires some friends only to define who she is (at that moment). Moreover, she has nothing besides her riveting sob story. Twilight, Celestia, Luna, and Cadence already fulfill all the fantasies you could want in regards to pony magic, and the rest of the Mane 6 are moving from the bystander mode under the latest EQG directive, which doesn’t bode well for characters that do not have a brand new approach to solving problems other than “tell them you sob story or blast them”. Oh, but she’s not defined enough! Sweetheart, this is as defined as she’ll get. She’ll not become an elusive alchemist, or a witty merchant of rare artifacts, or a lore-spouting eldritch occultist, or whatever other exciting thing you could introduce into pony. She’ll always be just another poor, powerful, and amazing friendship student that could, and that is dispensable to the point of irrelevance. It’s like introducing Lightning Dust into Mane cast because of a silly tragic past, lack of friendship, and a relatively different attitude in relation to Rainbow Dash. But judging from your posts, you’d probably like that.

[Ninjaed 526]

I'll have to decline, also taking the train soon so keeping this short.

 

Worf effect, as any trope, is neither good nor bad by itself. It all depends on how it's used. And making the viewers understand the main characters are not made out of scearium is imho not a bad thing at all. Your finale example does the same thing, except there was no "reinforcements". Also, its genre isn't the same at all. The MLP season 6 finale opens up a TON of possibilitites, so does Starlight. And you're already seeing fans theorising away on both this finale and season 7.

 

Also, it hasn't brought this dissatisfaction and all you're speaking of because it wasn't focusing on the Mane 6, but because of other elements. One of them being Starlight, another being the lack of capture scene to keep the mystery that the changelings were back. So not beause it wasn't focusing on the Mane 6 at all. In fact, even you aren't. Your complaint is that it focuses on Starlight. Draco having to save Harry? Well sure, that'd have been a riot - of positiveness that is. The irony of the situation would have been golden! But "the very end"? MLP isn't over, you know?

 

Twilight resorted to manipulation a few times...well yes. Never denied this, actually admitted it even. BUT Starlight is on a whole other level, she didn't manipulate a few measly times over the course of 6 seasons, but over the course of ONE season. Though it's true it's not enough to define a character. Good thing that's not all she is. Again, she's like a child right now. She's the Straight Mare and the "rebelious teen" of the group, even. Sometimes she will not even question Twilight even if it displeases her, other times she will stand her ground and not back down.

And right now, she's lost as to what she wants to do. Many people can relate to that, especially the teens (eff the system!). All ponies know what they'll do, except her. She doesn't "belong" and is in the process of trying to. She represents several things the other ponies cannot. Her most unique trait so far? Thinking how she should approach other ponies. She's doing it for almost everypony except Twilight, Spike...and Trixie. And when she doesn't, she's trying to please (Twilight), trying to find approbation/empathy (Trixie) or venting (Spike). She's mostly defined by how she's trying to interact with others because - again - is trying to belong.

 

What makes her great so far is in part this process and how it'll reveal her personality little by little. Her greatest passion is magic, but it cannot be all there is to her, in other words it's paving the way for many episodes. It's also paving the way for more Twilight characterisation. In No Second Prances for instance, Twilight comes to realise she had let herself be guided by her apprehension toward Trixie. She did have good reasons, and did patch things up between the two of them, but this experience is reminding her to try to understand, trust others and give them a chance, instead of trying to have everything go according to what she'd planned.

 

Oh hey, a similarity with Starlight!! Well yeah... They share similarities. Can't deny that. But does sharing similarities make a character inherently bad? In terms of abilities, as I've pointed out earlier, Starlight is adept at creating new "spells" while Twilight is better at analysing spells. She's also waaay more resourceful and creative than anypony else, as evidenced by her use of Trixie's tricks and Discord's personality. I doubt Twilight would have been able to pull the same thing off. She'd have had to rely on the rest of the Mane 6 but not in as creative a way.

 

So Starlight does bring new abilities to the cast. Her personality is also different from any other, Twilight being the closest. Even then, you cannot say Starlight is a Twilight clone, unless in bad faith. Just watch a Starlight episode, imagine her being Twilight, and you'll be forced to realise this is not a Twilight clone. Her reactions and thought process are just way too different.

 

Lightning Dust is a good point you make, but I'm lacking time right now, I'm sorry. I'll be back

[LeafFerret 3,382]

She's also waaay more resourceful and creative than anypony else, as evidenced by her use of Trixie's tricks and Discord's personality. I doubt Twilight would have been able to pull the same thing off. She'd have had to rely on the rest of the Mane 6 but not in as creative a way.

 

So Starlight does bring new abilities to the cast. Her personality is also different from any other, Twilight being the closest. Even then, you cannot say Starlight is a Twilight clone, unless in bad faith. Just watch a Starlight episode, imagine her being Twilight, and you'll be forced to realise this is not a Twilight clone. Her reactions and thought process are just way too different.

The first point was what concerned me if that was the way the show was going, it meant that the writers does not want to take any risks if it meant making the show great to watch. It also would've made the show too predictable and you didn't even have to watch the episode to know what would happen at the end. I'm glad that they decided to go in a different direction when Starlight became a main character.

 

I always had a thing of liking the protagonist the most in any show/movie/game. I guess it was because they had the lead role and the most popular of the group. Starlight reminds me of that person who takes over your job temporarily because Twilight is unable to do it and then after a while, Starlight starts to do well and after that, does so well that she takes over that job permanently. Personally, I think having Starlight as a main character just have the writers come up with new ideas or ones that they couldn't do with the Mane 6 and keeps the show fresh and go for more seasons.

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Too late! Thirty rare Pepes!

You misunderstood. It’s not about Draco saving Harry but about Draco becoming the main protagonist. And yes, a similar character in the main group of heroes is a bad thing indeed. You want to bring them in to explore new venues not eating away at others. You are constantly forgetting the boundaries in which we are discussing our points. This show needs to have very caricaturized and differentiated cast because of its time and age limitations. We don’t have time to do two characters that do practically the same thing (magic) in a slightly different manner that can only be appreciated by people who inherently like these kind of woobies.

 

Also, Twilight really can’t do anything without her friends. That’s the point you so gratuitously plastered with the bandage of seemingly uncreative approach. Starlight is, apart from the need to be defined by her environment, basically self-sufficient, and as such cannot function efficiently in a group. You mark her as a rebellious teen, but she most definitely didn’t act this way in the finale. She acts exactly as the plot demands her to and not the other way around. The whole point is to hornblock Twilight with such a task that demands cooperation from her fellow friends.  Add Starlight and you break that down since despite all her cosmic differences from Twilight, she still needs the same narrative in order for the story to work. Their tasks inside action adventure episodes are interchangeable and you need to decide which pony to use as the driving force.

 

And as far as manipulation is concerned: Starlight had only a few episodes, didn’t she? What makes you think she’ll remain the way she is now that she’s had her dose of friendship? This might read a little funny, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Twilight had more accounts of manipulation than Starlight at the end of G4.

 

So, how about that Lightning Dust apologia?

[Ninjaed 526]

... After losing 4 times my whole post due to weird computer crashes (found the problem), spending more than 2 hours on it, lacking sleep and all, I'll be brief...

 

Say, mind taking care of Goat-kun's demand for rare Pepes? Sweet, you're awesome!

 

Can't remember exactly what I wrote, but the gist of it was: many people welcomed the change in the finale. Not having the Mane 6 was refreshing and made it far more unpredictible, as the cast was different. However, Starlight as the new main character? Nah. She's dark a horse, and turning a dark horse into a main character is a good recipe for failure. Not to mention you can't "write off" a main character who's had 6 seasons worth of development just like that. Especially not in a slife of life cartoon.

 

Me so sad...

 

Draco would become the protagonist as he's off to save Harry Potter and the others. After that, it'd be back to normal, with Harry Potter as the  main character. Making Draco become the main character even after that wouldn't make much sense.

 

Twilight can do stuff without her friends of course, but she's very verrrry clearly at her best when with them.. And Starlight, self-sufficient? By having to rely on Trixie's tricks, Discord's personality and Thorax's shapeshifting ability? Huh. I guess I had the wrong definition of self-sufficient. She's far from it and currently needs others, in fact.

 

"Rebelious" teens are not that rebelious, they're merely in search of themselves. It's an identity crisis they're trying to overcome. Right now, Starlight is the same. You're talking about caricaturing and you're right. Right now, Starlight is the socially awkward ditzy genius (at magic) type, who's trying to do good but mostly causes trouble instead. But while the Mane 6 have "positive" caricatures, Starlight is stuck with a mainly negative one for now. But just like our main characters, this will be explored and will give more depth to this character, eventually giving her a more positive caricature trait. As I've said, it's if they don't do that that there'll be an issue.

 

And Lightning Dust, it's a good point in that she's been created as similar to another character (Rainbow Dash here), but in an antagonistic way. The thing is, Lightning Dust is an example of how could have Rainbow Dash been had she not set the proper limits. They share an almost identical personality, with Lightning Dust being simply more extreme.

On the other hand, however "similar" Starlight may be, she's not "almost identical" to Twilight. She's not an egghead for one, doesn't share this crazy need for lists and organising everything, going on the fly instead, she's also more "seductive" instead of adorkable, is pushed into doing stuff instead of eagerly going for it, tries to run away instead of facing her responsibilities, the list goes on...

[Goat-kun 2,528]

It doesn’t matter who does it. I’ll remain a BBEG until my thirst for dank memes is quenched!

Firstly, Twilight is a very ordinary personality, as are all of Mane 6. That is why they function best when they support each other in more ways that just in removing magic-inhibiting artifacts. Starlight doesn’t need that to function in a story; she only needs others to function as a character. Mane members can be thrown into a blank void with their histories erased, and they would still be able to behave as specifically as they usually do. Do the same thing with Starlight and no viewer could tell you what’s up. But the self-sufficiency I was talking about is in regards to her having no preferences to characters or plot to make her stand out. That is because our glorious writers have, in their great wisdom, created a mold in the form of a little pony and stuffed it with qualities of every fan’s first OC. And now we’re realizing that was kind of a bad idea because despite her overbearing presence inside episodes that contain her, she’d still need so much development to make her presence pay off. Ain’t nobody got time for that! Writers done goofed and we’re stuck with this bullshit. Think of Mane 6 fans as taxpayers and show time as your tax money. You’ve taken a sizeable share of their ponies’ special finale benefits and now you want to take even more because your program failed to meet all its goals. I’m sure we’ll all be happy and compliant when faced with such proposal.

 

Secondly, it doesn’t matter how many little differences there are between two characters that perform the same function. And after you yourself vehemently stated that Tibia wouldn’t work because she’d be fulfilling a similar role as Chrysalis while conveniently ignoring their different personalities, are you going to tell me that this is alright as long as your favorite does it? Guess only some selected characters can lose value to similar ones. Or does this dilemma too need further development

 

Thirdly, if all writers would introduce a new main character for every plot that is not well supported by the existing main cast, it would be unsustainable. When you do it, make sure it’s the most meaningful change for the existing team and their story you can think off and reasonably achieve, or do what every other writer does and introduce an undisruptive side character. What was done in FIM was not a meaningful change but a botched attempt that replaced Mane 6 story development with easily discarded novelties and gluing it all together with subpar slice of life stories. Oh, but I’m sure that all this overwhelming positivity is proof enough that I am mistaken.

 

The best thing they can do now is to peel off all those layers of general “good stuff” characteristics like they did with Flash Sentry and nail her to the tapestry of not-quite-semi-important background characters. Our boy Sentry is proof that this can be done effectively with a character that was at one time integral to the plot, and that in doing so benefits both the story and the character in question. You’d get your Starlight with some crumbs of development here and there, our glorious writers would be put back in line with a clang on the wrists, and I’d stop writing long rage posts about a single pony.

[Ninjaed 526]

Well then...

 

Had a bit of trouble understanding what you meant about blank histories and all at first. Well I'd say it's proof that her character has grown since, but if we were to erase her history, we'd have to decide between evil Starlight or good Starlight. If evil Starlight, I think there's no real problem. If good Starlight...you'd have a pony who has trouble associating with others, who tries to avoid doing what she doesn't like, who switches between a confident persona and a more insecure persona when dealing with situations she can't deal with too well (and creating trouble sometimes but like everypony).

In short, a pony content with staying in her "comfort zone" and growing really insecure when not, yet eye-ing the friends she could have were she to leave it. So...it'd work. I don't really see a problem so far, and such a character is interesting to have in a story, not to mention it'd necessarily involve the others and thus give them screentime and development. Pinkie's turn - she could show she's not just an hyperactive party pony, she can also listen to a friend's woes and help them feel better about themselves. A slightly more serious Pinkie when the times demand it.

Hmm and put like that, Starlight's closer to a Fluttershy than a Twilight - yet different from both. Just like AJ and RD share similarities, but also with other ponies yet retain their own unique traits.

 

If you recall, I actually said Tibia overshadowing Chrysalis was a fear I had, in my later posts at least. Precisely because I couldn't disprove her usefulness there. But there are points we'd have missed with just Tibia and a lack of Starlight. Regardless, as far as Chrysalis is concerned, Tibia could have brought some elements Thorax likely won't be able to.

I'd just like to state some point I've consciously realised now in another thread, on the topic of Chrysalis. Starlight and Chrysalis have a BIG parallel going on. Both were "dictators", well-intentioned extremists who did what they thought was best at the time to bring happiness to their subjects. Then an interloper comes into the picture (Twilight and Thorax) and ruins everything, making their subjects undero a "transformation" and turning against them. Then, unable to cope with the situation, both ran away with revenge in their minds. It's likely why Starlight is the one made to extend her hoof to Chrysalis in the finale. That's something major Tibia the Buttkicker misses.

 

Your third point I agree with. That's not something the writers should do often. It has to be done sparingly and with reasons. So far that's what the writers have done, and they seem to know when not to or when to dismiss one, like Flash Sentry. They've always used side characters until now, and Starlight is pretty much the first one to break this. As of yet, I'd have preferred a couple more episodes with Starlight where she'd help Mane 6 characters show another facet of themselves, like Pinkie earlier.

But with what they meant to accomplish this season and finale with Starlight, I can understand why they haven't...yet. This season was basically Starlight trying to handle her reformed self as best she could, unsure whether she'd truly changed as much as she thought she had. The finale has broadened her "comfort zone" and that's why I'm thinking we'll see a bit of those kinds of episodes in the future, where she helps develop others as much as she gets development. That's something everyone wants to see - episodes where Starlight allows the Mane 5 to shine. Well, except Starlight haters I suppose. :awuh:

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Points for trying. I’d actually get you off the hook if you’d use the “Where did everything go so right” one.

Let me make this real simple:

 

Ninjaed: Tibia is nope cause Chrysalis would lose value due to similarities.

Goat-kun: Starlight is nope cause Twilight would lose value due to similarities.

Ninjaed: Nope cause similarities!

Gat-kun: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for the first thing you had trouble with:

 

Applejack: stubborn redneck cowgirl with an apple farm

Pinkie Pie: manic pixie dream party girl who enjoys baking

Rainbow Dash: cool, awesome, and radical tomcolt jock.

Fluttershy: introverted dandere animal lover

Rarity: pompous fashionista with a heart of gold

Twilight: fussy magical bookworm with no taste

Spike: Twilight’s helpful and witty little bro

 

Starlight: talented magical teenage manipulative rebel control freak with a tragic past

 

I don’t know about you, but something feels off. I think it’s that Spike bro. Yeah, he’s male, and he’s witty. Like, what were writers even thinking? Welp, nothing a little development can’t fix! Wow, that should really become a motto of some quack consulting firm.

 

You know, there are some problems even development can’t fix. It can’t undo all … that. It’s a freaking red & black salad of leather pants and glitter. You’d have to take something away first. Scrap that. You’d have to take away a lot of junk, cause if you’ll be adding them positive quirks on top of what you have, you’ll gonna bake yourself a real funny stinker. This is how Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Ways are made. Now I kinda wanna see a picture where someone replaces Chris-chan and Sonichu with Haber and Starlight. Zap to the extreme!

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

 

Starlight: talented magical teenage manipulative rebel control freak with a tragic past

The funny thing here is that Starlight seems like a bad attempt to Imitate Luna's popularity but condensed into a "mane character" role instead of just secondary (former, super powerful villain who's now good, has issues with social interaction, and tries to make up for her past and fears rejection)

 

 

 

Firstly, Twilight is a very ordinary personality, as are all of Mane 6. That is why they function best when they support each other in more ways that just in removing magic-inhibiting artifacts. Starlight doesn’t need that to function in a story; she only needs others to function as a character. Mane members can be thrown into a blank void with their histories erased, and they would still be able to behave as specifically as they usually do. Do the same thing with Starlight and no viewer could tell you what’s up. But the self-sufficiency I was talking about is in regards to her having no preferences to characters or plot to make her stand out. That is because our glorious writers have, in their great wisdom, created a mold in the form of a little pony and stuffed it with qualities of every fan’s first OC. And now we’re realizing that was kind of a bad idea because despite her overbearing presence inside episodes that contain her, she’d still need so much development to make her presence pay off. Ain’t nobody got time for that! Writers done goofed and we’re stuck with this bullshit. Think of Mane 6 fans as taxpayers and show time as your tax money. You’ve taken a sizeable share of their ponies’ special finale benefits and now you want to take even more because your program failed to meet all its goals. I’m sure we’ll all be happy and compliant when faced with such proposal.

 

Secondly, it doesn’t matter how many little differences there are between two characters that perform the same function. And after you yourself vehemently stated that Tibia wouldn’t work because she’d be fulfilling a similar role as Chrysalis while conveniently ignoring their different personalities, are you going to tell me that this is alright as long as your favorite does it? Guess only some selected characters can lose value to similar ones. Or does this dilemma too need further development

 

Thirdly, if all writers would introduce a new main character for every plot that is not well supported by the existing main cast, it would be unsustainable. When you do it, make sure it’s the most meaningful change for the existing team and their story you can think off and reasonably achieve, or do what every other writer does and introduce an undisruptive side character. What was done in FIM was not a meaningful change but a botched attempt that replaced Mane 6 story development with easily discarded novelties and gluing it all together with subpar slice of life stories. Oh, but I’m sure that all this overwhelming positivity is proof enough that I am mistaken.

 

The best thing they can do now is to peel off all those layers of general “good stuff” characteristics like they did with Flash Sentry and nail her to the tapestry of not-quite-semi-important background characters. Our boy Sentry is proof that this can be done effectively with a character that was at one time integral to the plot, and that in doing so benefits both the story and the character in question. You’d get your Starlight with some crumbs of development here and there, our glorious writers would be put back in line with a clang on the wrists, and I’d stop writing long rage posts about a single pony.

 

 

 

to be fair with flash, his new role of "Loser who follows Sunset around like a puppy" actually seems to work for sunset. So he's still got a semi-important role of being a Ken doll to ship with sunset, but with a different personality and purpose (Straw loser so sunset can seem nicer by comparison by pepping him up)

[Goat-kun 2,528]

The funny thing here is that Starlight seems like a bad attempt to Imitate Luna's popularity but condensed into a "mane character" role instead of just secondary (former, super powerful villain who's now good, has issues with social interaction, and tries to make up for her past and fears rejection)

We already went through the Luna thing, unsuccessfully. Apparently, these similarities only work on my newly acquired changeling OC.

 

to be fair with flash, his new role of "Loser who follows Sunset around like a puppy" actually seems to work for sunset. So he's still got a semi-important role of being a Ken doll to ship with sunset, but with a different personality and purpose (Straw loser so sunset can seem nicer by comparison by pepping him up)

That is exactly why she needs to get the Flash treatment. He actually works now. Starlight has the same problem. So let’s use what we’ve learned from him and apply it to this here woobie.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

We already went through the Luna thing, unsuccessfully. Apparently, these similarities only work on my newly acquired changeling OC.

 

That is exactly why she needs to get the Flash treatment. He actually works now. Starlight has the same problem. So let’s use what we’ve learned from him and apply it to this here woobie.

Keep in mind they only did that with flash because they had ANOTHER love interest to bring in instead for twilight though: So you'd just get Twilight clone 4.0 showing up to take Starlight's place

[Ninjaed 526]

Meh, at least I tried. MtnDew88, why hast thou forsaken me?!

 

Nah, in my later posts it was more like:

 

Goat-kun: Starlight is nope cause Twilight would lose value due to similarities.

Ninjaed: Tibia is nope cause Chrysalis would lose value due to similarities.

Goat-kun: Actually, no she wouldn't, and Tibia would be more interesting than Thorax.

Ninjaed: Well yes but no...but... Huh, wait... I guess I can't deny Tibia being more interesting, I'm just afraid Chrysalis would lose value.

Goat-kun: Same for me with Twilight.

Ninjaed: Ok, point taken. I can see where you're coming from.

 

I can't deny there's a risk with Starlight, just like there was (and still is) with Sunset. It's all up to the writers to allow her to grow into something more. I've said that a few times, but I'd be a bit sad and disappointed if she ended up a Sunset Mk II. Speaking of, I hope the specials will make her more "unique" as well, she could use it

 

What I don't get though is this:

 

 

Goat-kun: Starlight is nope cause Twilight would lose value due to similarities.

Ninjaed: Tibia is nope cause Chrysalis would lose value due to similarities.

Goat-kun: Nope cause similarities!

Ninjaed: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Yeah, I've just swapped the first 2 lines and who said the last 2 lines.

 

Sure, development can't fix everything, but Starlight was intended to need it from the very beginning. She's there to help serve the reformation point this season has been stressing quite a bit. It's not "patching things up" so much as it is "going as planned".

 

Also, one point you may have missed, season 5 was dealing with abandonment from friends, with Moondancer for instance. All in preparation for the finale. In those cases, all's well that ends well, but Starlight had no one to turn to in both of her times of need. As a result, she'd been living in a lie she'd weaved for herself until Twilight came. That didn't change her childish mind who couldn't move on after Sunburst left her. Without guidance, it was all black and white and centered around her in her desperate search for friendship.

Now, it's still more or less the same except she's withdrawn herself inside her shell. She's still just a child who doesn't know right from wrong unless told so, who tries to be good and have friends but finds herself at odds due to her warped vision. That's a few unique topics and all going for Starlight despite her foil and expy status, isn't it? Some more below.

 

Oh hey, glad you're giving your opinion too!

 

It does feel like they went for the woobie vibe, doesn't it? Luna did have those cute moments when she tried to better herself. It's true put like that, they are similar: both charismatic leaders, went evil because of neglect, but were stopped by Twilight, who's afterwards shown their socially awkward selves how to behave in society.

 

But they go totally opposite ways other than that:

- Luna is proactive about her reformation, while Starlight is reluctant and tries to avoid it.

- Luna is mature (even as NMM) while Starlight is childish.

- Luna is strong-willed while Starlight has become a Shrinking Violent forced unto the stage.

- Luna is more thoughtful while Starlight is more of a LEEROY JENKINS!!

- And Luna is an alicorn, while Starlight is pretty much your average unicorn, just with a gift for magic.

 

In fact, Starlight is a foil for Sombra as well. Gifted unicorn going tyranical, but in opposite ways. A foil for Discord as well, as his total opposite. Total chaos vs total equality. And a foil to every single villain as she is no super-entity, she's "just a pony, she makes mistakes from times to tiiimes!" *ahem*

Those are for her villain days. Her reformed days, she's an expy of Luna, Sunset Shimmer if you include EQG and unicorn Twilight. All the more so in that they're both students to an alicorn princess. But again, she's the exact opposite in some ways:

- Twilight learned under Celestia, Starlight all alone.

- Twilight didn't care about friends, for Starlight it is all she ever wanted.

- Twilight wanted to be left alone, Starlight's one greatest fear is loneliness.

- Twilight is more of a thinker, Starlight is more of a doer.

- Twilight is very "by the rules", Starlight is very "outside the box".

- Twilight was forced friends unto her without trying, Starlight scares others away the more she tries.

 

So I find her to be not a bad attempt at imitating Luna, but a well-executed all-in-one foil for many other characters, as well as a revisit of unicorn Twilight days in a different light, but not limited to that and with a lot of room to grow and become more than foil and expy - her status as a sixth ranger not counting as a defining trait ofc.

 

 

PS: Forgot about Flash...poor guy. No one likes him, just there to make the others look better. I could try and defend him, but that'd be a bit hard as I don't really like him