What was the real objective of the map calling Spike on Triple Threat?

[DonMaguz 1,023]

Hello everyone.

I was trying to come up with a reason for the map to call Spike on 'Triple Threat', since I found it completely unnecessary the first time I saw the episode.

First of all, it seemed that the friendship problem was caused by Spike, and Spike didn't even came up with the solution of the problem. So, why call him?

After another watch I saw that Spike was actually being somewhat successful in keeping Thorax and Ember apart and he delegated that task only when the map called him, distracting him from his original objective to start looking for a "friendship problem" in town. So I wondered, what if the map called Spike to remove him from the situation long enough to cause the meeting of Thorax and Ember?

- Thorax initial goal was to ask Spike (and only Spike) for leadership advice.

- Ember initial goal was to ask Spike for advice on spreading friendship between dragons (and maybe being shown how ponies do it in Ponyville).

The episode shows how Thorax and Ember were actually a better help to each other than Spike could have been, mainly because Spike has no leadership role in equestria. At the end, Thorax and Ember got good advice but their original problems are still not solved at this point and I came up with the following: the map objective was not to solve any friendship issue at all, but rather to form a new friendship between the Changeling Leader and the Dragon Lord.

 

My question to all of you is, what do you think was the reason why the map called Spike?

I'll be eager to read your thoughts and comments on this subject, specially if you have come up with a different reasoning than mine.

Greetings!

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

This is a theory I've also been pondering, and I think it is most likely true, but I have one BIG problem with it: it makes the map untrustworthy. If this is indeed the way the map planned for things to work out, it intentionally deceived Spike, Twilight, and Starlight, forcing them to act in a way that could have permanently damaged Spike's friendship with Ember and Thorax. 

The fact things turned out perfectly, just like they did in A Royal Problem, is another problem: how does the map know how everything will play out? Unexplained predetermination/predestination is not something I'm a big fan of.

But, I'm definitely overthinking this, so instead I'll just go back to enjoying ponies.

[Heavenly Inexplicit 309]

 

Friendship works in mysterious ways.

We now know that the map can "see" into the future to find problems.

Spike was probably just a means to an end. I think that the map distracted spike from keeping them apart, so that it would bring Ember and Thorax together... so that they could work out their friendship problem. Clever map.

 

 

[Sly 236]

IMO the map was "reasoning on the opposite": it wasn't asking Spike to solve a friendship problem, but he was inducing him to make Ember and Thorax meeting so THEY could fix their friendship with him. 

Also, I don't think the map was unnecessary: if it didn't "distract Spike by keeping Ember and Thorax apart, they woudln't never have met each other and the new friendship would have never born. That's why it called him.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Sly

[cmarston1 5,962]

It allowed for Ember and Thorax to become friends, and thus the two of them were able to help each other become better leaders by addressing their strengths and weaknesses.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

11 hours ago, Heavenly Sun said:

We now know that the map can "see" into the future to find problems.

 

13 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

The fact things turned out perfectly, just like they did in A Royal Problem, is another problem: how does the map know how everything will play out? Unexplained predetermination/predestination is not something I'm a big fan of.

I don't think there's enough evidence of the map "seeing the future" yet, but I'm curious if that's the case. Although that would mean that the "unexplained predestination" card, which ShootingStar159 mentioned, is being played and even if that is valid on a fantasy world that would also make the map a lot less interesting.

 

13 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

This is a theory I've also been pondering, and I think it is most likely true, but I have one BIG problem with it: it makes the map untrustworthy. If this is indeed the way the map planned for things to work out, it intentionally deceived Spike, Twilight, and Starlight, forcing them to act in a way that could have permanently damaged Spike's friendship with Ember and Thorax.

This is precisely why I started this topic, deceiving Spike intentionally seems a bit extreme to FiM's honesty levels, specially if the map itself was formed when the 6 representative ponies of the elements of harmony sat on their thrones together, and we all know one of those elements is HONESTY! It seems really twisted but I don't see another explanation yet.

About the possibility of permanently damaging Spike's friendships I don't think things could have escalated that far, yes Ember and Thorax got upset at Spike for his assumptions but I think they value Spike's friendship too much to have let that misunderstanding keeping them from their first friend permanently.

 

11 hours ago, Sly said:

IMO the map was "reasoning on the opposite": it wasn't asking Spike to solve a friendship problem, but he was inducing him to make Ember and Thorax meeting so THEY could fix their friendship with him. 

I see your "reasoning on the opposite" but it bugs me a little that at the moment the map called Spike, Ember and Thorax were not upset at Spike yet. So that particular friendship problem may have not been what triggered the calling.

 

11 hours ago, Sly said:

Also, I don't think the map was unnecessary: if it didn't "distract Spike by keeping Ember and Thorax apart, they woudln't never have met each other and the new friendship would have never born. That's why it called him.

I believe so too, but didn't notice that "distraction logic" until the second time I saw the episode.

 

13 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

But, I'm definitely overthinking this, so instead I'll just go back to enjoying ponies.

Most of this forum's discussions are about overthinking the show, at least that why I come, but I don't let that issue to bug my enjoying of the ponies. The overanalysis is just a guilty pleasure I have from my anime-watching days.

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

2 hours ago, DonMaguz said:

I don't think there's enough evidence of the map "seeing the future" yet, but I'm curious if that's the case. Although that would mean that the "unexplained predestination" card, which ShootingStar159 mentioned, is being played and even if that is valid on a fantasy world that would also make the map a lot less interesting. 

We know that the map has some kind of power over time, that's how the tree of harmony was able to keep the map in timelines that it shouldn't have existed in during the season five finale.

As for predestination, I'd like to get a little philosophical and say there are at least three distinct types of predestination that could be in play here.

Option One: A Deific guiding hand. In this case the tree of harmony is able to influence the world around it to achieve a specific result. Not a fan of this one, and I think it's the least likely of the three.

Option Two: Temporal Knowledge: The tree/map is able to look into the future and see how all the different variables play out, allowing it to pick the perfect solution to any given problem. This is the one I think would be most popular, especially given the tree's already been shown to have at least an awareness of time.

Option Three: Nature and Nurture: The tree has a connection to everyone in Equestria, it knows everything's about who they are, and is able to accurately guess how they would react to certain events and stresses. This is an idea that's been around for decades, but is mostly floated around in criminal psychology and philosophy, the idea that everything we have ever been or done, and everything we are going to do is predetermined by our genetics and upbringing; we have no free will. If the tree is connected to everyone in Equestria, it's able to know their true selves as well as their whole lives up to that point. When it senses a friendship problem, it can pick the best peop,e to send, as well as reliably guess the outcome of the mission because of how well it knows everyone involved.

2 hours ago, DonMaguz said:

I see your "reasoning on the opposite" but it bugs me a little that at the moment the map called Spike, Ember and Thorax were not upset at Spike yet. So that particular friendship problem may have not been what triggered the calling.

The map has clearly shown that it favors long term solutions over easy fixes. Made in Manehatten and Griffonstone are great examples, but I'll go more in depth with my favorite, A Royal Problem. A common criticism of the episode I saw when it came out was that Twilight should have been the one called, not Starlight, and the common defense I've seen is that only Starlight would have been impartial enough to get the job done. I disagree with both of these statements. Twilight is more than capable of being rational enough to get the job done, but she wouldn't have gone far enough to permanently fix the real problem, that the sisters didn't really understand each other. Twilight could have easily gotten them both to admit that they were being childish, and the two sisters could have talked their differences out and patched up their relationship... for a while. But the thing about family is that you never stay happy forever.  Another decade or two down the line could see the same old problems surface, but Starlight's solution, as extreme as it was, gave the two sisters the empathy they needed to truly undesrtand each other, making them closer than they had ever been. The map favors permanent solutions, even if it isn't always pretty.

But straight up tricking Spike like that is a level beyond what I expected we would ever see from the show, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It easy to say,'who cares everything ended up okay' but I really don't want to see something like this from the map again.

Edited August 23, 2017 by ShootingStar159

[Brainstorm 4,114]

It was calling Spike to help him understand Ember and Thorax on being New Leaders. And helping him trusting his friends more.

[Jeric 46,873]

Spike was already making bad decisions before the map called him. The map simply set up the conditions to bring about an actual response to revelation that may not have otherwise occurred had events gone down the original path. We may have seen this before when tell map called Starlight, since she was oddly surprised that the spell wore off, implying Starlight may not have been completely responsible for everything related to that spell. 

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