Magic in MLP

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

30 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

You are correct. Alicorns, unicorns, or even others, different pony characters will perform differently. Let me simplify my claim: if a pony would fight an alicorn version of themselves, then the alicorn would win.

That I agree with, the alicorn version will have an advantage that I can't argue against, but for the most part alicorns aren't gods, so a different pony that fights an alicorn has a chance.

36 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Discord is a very hard thing to dissect. He breaks the rules, but then he uses magic that is very similar to that of horned ponies. The same things that inhibit pony magic also affect his abilities (like Chrysalis magic inhibition stone). That is why I regard his magic to not be that different from pony magic.

I think that it's because Discord can break the rules that he can use horn magic. He is chaos incarnate, making him the only thing that can use magic however it wants in whatever it wants, because it isn't properly defined. Not to mention a spell is a spell, logically speaking if some being can use magic then they can recreate spells made for ponies. 

36 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Potions is where I would start too.  Well, maybe not potions in their fantastical sense, but poisons. While I assume you gave your OC the knowledge of alchemy for the purpose of magic and improvement, I gave mine the ability to do the exact opposite: to cripple an opponent.

Actually he studies to know everything, to harm and to heal, to kill and to revive. But enough of OC's for now

For the most part Alchemy and potion making have some connections here and there, and I even said Alchemy originally, but alchemy has a different goal in mind with its magic, potion making is more for what I described, whereas alchemy is much more like a means to an end in a scientific endeavor. It can be noted that they are similar in the sense that they both require knowledge over much more than simple spells and incantations, but what I thought would be nice is talk of the ingredients and reagents and work our way into the more scientific and wide reach of Alchemy by means of bridging the gap where they meet.

In any case, I find that in regards to alchemy I feel like there is so much more to go over, there are the obvious spells shown in the show like Twilights attempts at changing leaves into clothes and an apple into an orange. These are obvious usages of alchemy using horn magic as it is conversion of one thing into a more desirable form as is one of Alchemy's greatest goals. I'd honestly love to say more but I am still catching up on what I missed not having watched the show since season 5, and if you excuse me for saying, I haven't seen many more examples of traditional alchemy, as it were, in the show but instead in a combination of alchemy and either spell casting or potion making. 

44 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Then there's the eye of a cockatrice. I wonder if it could work the same way as the head of Medusa. 

In regards to this minor query, I would like to argue for the sake of it being not the case that it causes petrification, but rather is the focus for which this event comes to be. Just as a crystal or an artifact can be a focus for spellcasting in some cases, so to can this be the resulting focus for the cockatrices magic. If I may be so bold, I would compare it to that of a flood gate. The cockatrice naturally can turn things to stone by means of its gaze, and does so through its sight, but it can open or close the "gate" that allows for this magic to happen, and the fact that it must see its target is the result of the magic needing a recipient for the magic in order to activate properly.

Also I would like to add that the posts seem to be getting quite large... No real reason for pointing that out, just noticed it and thought it was amusing

[Goat-kun 2,527]

5 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

I think that it's because Discord can break the rules that he can use horn magic. He is chaos incarnate, making him the only thing that can use magic however it wants in whatever it wants, because it isn't properly defined. Not to mention a spell is a spell, logically speaking if some being can use magic then they can recreate spells made for ponies.

All kinds of magic break rules in their own ways. I doubt he'd be able to use dark magic or dragon magic. He is a chaos spirit and as such even he has limitations. He doesn't have any form of magic protection, and I do believe his power to create follows a certain pattern. Every object that comes to life with his magic and every thing he changes is a mockery of itself, kinda like Poison Joke. The rest of it: portals, teleportation, conjuration of minor objects; that is all in unicorn domain. Plus there are spells and objects not tied to Harmony that can inhibit him, so he's not that powerful.

5 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

Actually he studies to know everything, to harm and to heal, to kill and to revive. But enough of OC's for now

For the most part Alchemy and potion making have some connections here and there, and I even said Alchemy originally, but alchemy has a different goal in mind with its magic, potion making is more for what I described, whereas alchemy is much more like a means to an end in a scientific endeavor. It can be noted that they are similar in the sense that they both require knowledge over much more than simple spells and incantations, but what I thought would be nice is talk of the ingredients and reagents and work our way into the more scientific and wide reach of Alchemy by means of bridging the gap where they meet.

In any case, I find that in regards to alchemy I feel like there is so much more to go over, there are the obvious spells shown in the show like Twilights attempts at changing leaves into clothes and an apple into an orange. These are obvious usages of alchemy using horn magic as it is conversion of one thing into a more desirable form as is one of Alchemy's greatest goals. I'd honestly love to say more but I am still catching up on what I missed not having watched the show since season 5, and if you excuse me for saying, I haven't seen many more examples of traditional alchemy, as it were, in the show but instead in a combination of alchemy and either spell casting or potion making.

It's more of a metamorphosis or polymorph or whatever you want to call it. It has the same effect but alchemy tries to understand the process. Magic only needs enough power to force the result.

5 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

In regards to this minor query, I would like to argue for the sake of it being not the case that it causes petrification, but rather is the focus for which this event comes to be. Just as a crystal or an artifact can be a focus for spellcasting in some cases, so to can this be the resulting focus for the cockatrices magic. If I may be so bold, I would compare it to that of a flood gate. The cockatrice naturally can turn things to stone by means of its gaze, and does so through its sight, but it can open or close the "gate" that allows for this magic to happen, and the fact that it must see its target is the result of the magic needing a recipient for the magic in order to activate properly.

Also I would like to add that the posts seem to be getting quite large... No real reason for pointing that out, just noticed it and thought it was amusing

Could be. Some creatures have organs that harbor their power. If the eye doesn't work one can always try the heart. Or train a live one. Both paths are a hassle. And the lens inside the eye can have its uses. If it can focus such malicious power what else can it do. To a pony with a broken horn items like that can be of use.

 

In the end, pony lore is not meant for people like us. If we want something we have to fanon it quite a lot. There's word going around that G5 could have more of it. A world of magic that obeys its own rules, now that would be something.

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

13 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

All kinds of magic break rules in their own ways. I doubt he'd be able to use dark magic or dragon magic. He is a chaos spirit and as such even he has limitations. He doesn't have any form of magic protection, and I do believe his power to create follows a certain pattern. Every object that comes to life with his magic and every thing he changes is a mockery of itself, kinda like Poison Joke. The rest of it: portals, teleportation, conjuration of minor objects; that is all in unicorn domain. Plus there are spells and objects not tied to Harmony that can inhibit him, so he's not that powerful.

Well if he is a being of chaos it would make sense that his chaotic magic can take any form he wishes, not to mention dark magic could be just pure malice, which lets be honest isnt that funny and thus isn't worth using. Dragon magic would either be magical protection that enhances the body or just spewing elements, not really much magical abilities that they can use on command if we are being honest. On to the subject of pony magics, those are all just standard magical types that can be used by most who practice the arts. When in the foreign lands in the recent movie, the beings there have seen magic, but are shocked at the ponies coloration, assuming they have some disease or have dyed it. This could be inference that magic in and of itself is usable to all things, but unicorns can use it naturally without much difficulty on their parts. This would then call into question what pony magic is, which I believe is much more simple than some big extravagant subset. Pony magic, at its simplest, is magic that an individual pony can use. It is not some special force of nature or an exclusive subset of spells only useable to a single pony, and to that point it is not a great range of spells usable by them all but only them. No, pony magic as we seem to call it is simply the individuals special form of magic that suits their passions and or cutie marks.

 

13 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

In the end, pony lore is not meant for people like us. If we want something we have to fanon it quite a lot. There's word going around that G5 could have more of it. A world of magic that obeys its own rules, now that would be something.

 

Also just because we dont have too much definitive proof, its still fun to speculate and assume based on the knowledge we do have, allowing for a much looser interpretation of the magical laws surrounding this world and how they may or may not differ from the norm. I find it invigorating personally to go into longwinded rants on the nature of such magics as well as what rules may govern them. And until any one definition is given, all definitions are perpetually in a box of being both true and false until proven otherwise. And that's fantastic! Also might I point out that it's fans like us that add the most to this ever growing world of theirs in the show? Through our own fan writings and head canons, many things were accepted by the writers and made canon. For the best example of this look to the recent episode showing all the background characters we have come to know online and how much we the fans have influenced who they are and what they do. Without us, these ideas might never be discussed or greatly thought over, so I say this lore is definitely for us, if not specifically made for us to delve into and discover ourselves!

 

After that little tangent, let's get onto a new subject since these seem to have begun to run slightly stale. Spell sequences, or rather the order of magical events that must be fulfilled for a spell to take effect. Or if not that, how about talking about ponies naturally imbibed magics that they are born with as a specific race, or maybe how things like the Pinkie Sense works and how it affects the course of history and or how it perceives the unknowable fate of everything? So many options, where to start? 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

5 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

Well if he is a being of chaos it would make sense that his chaotic magic can take any form he wishes, not to mention dark magic could be just pure malice, which lets be honest isnt that funny and thus isn't worth using. Dragon magic would either be magical protection that enhances the body or just spewing elements, not really much magical abilities that they can use on command if we are being honest. On to the subject of pony magics, those are all just standard magical types that can be used by most who practice the arts. When in the foreign lands in the recent movie, the beings there have seen magic, but are shocked at the ponies coloration, assuming they have some disease or have dyed it. This could be inference that magic in and of itself is usable to all things, but unicorns can use it naturally without much difficulty on their parts. This would then call into question what pony magic is, which I believe is much more simple than some big extravagant subset. Pony magic, at its simplest, is magic that an individual pony can use. It is not some special force of nature or an exclusive subset of spells only useable to a single pony, and to that point it is not a great range of spells usable by them all but only them. No, pony magic as we seem to call it is simply the individuals special form of magic that suits their passions and or cutie marks.

I disagree. One may say that pony magic is standard magic the same way one may call wizards standard magic users. Never underestimate the power of feral nature which is alien to both ponies and Discord. It may be crude on the outside, but on the inside there is power at work, power that obeys neither light nor darkness nor chaos. And while ponies can interact with darkness their minds are ill-equipped to control it. Discord is even worse-off. He is trapped by his own definition. Then again, so are all the rest. In time, you shall find that some creatures have a natural propensity for a type of magic only they can nurture to its fullest potential.

5 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

Also just because we dont have too much definitive proof, its still fun to speculate and assume based on the knowledge we do have, allowing for a much looser interpretation of the magical laws surrounding this world and how they may or may not differ from the norm. I find it invigorating personally to go into longwinded rants on the nature of such magics as well as what rules may govern them. And until any one definition is given, all definitions are perpetually in a box of being both true and false until proven otherwise. And that's fantastic! Also might I point out that it's fans like us that add the most to this ever growing world of theirs in the show? Through our own fan writings and head canons, many things were accepted by the writers and made canon. For the best example of this look to the recent episode showing all the background characters we have come to know online and how much we the fans have influenced who they are and what they do. Without us, these ideas might never be discussed or greatly thought over, so I say this lore is definitely for us, if not specifically made for us to delve into and discover ourselves!

Maybe you, but not me. If I started writing, Equestria would burn  Monsters and villainy are my true specialty, but since I'm also a lore and fantasy enthusiast it's K.

5 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

After that little tangent, let's get onto a new subject since these seem to have begun to run slightly stale. Spell sequences, or rather the order of magical events that must be fulfilled for a spell to take effect. Or if not that, how about talking about ponies naturally imbibed magics that they are born with as a specific race, or maybe how things like the Pinkie Sense works and how it affects the course of history and or how it perceives the unknowable fate of everything? So many options, where to start? 

I imagine casting similarly to induction of a cellular action potential. You need to push through a threshold to cause an effect. How much magic does one need to induce a specific "miracle"? Since horned ponies have a limitation on their magic output you can translate that into channeling time. Perhaps one could reduce the needed magic and thus channeling time using rituals, symbols of power, and substances that catalyze the process. We know all these things exist within the FIM lore but are rarely utilized.

 

About types of magic: some magic clings to a creature type but some clings to a specific person. Earth ponies and unicorns cannot stand on clouds without magical aids. Pegasi and earth ponies cannot cast sells without tools. Unicorns and pegasi ... well, earth pony magic is pretty underwhelming. We say they are connected to earth and nature but are they really? Timber wolves, the nature elementals, they don't like them one bit, and these ponies don't understand the Everfree.

 

 Pinkie sense is similar to seers and true sight. These are gifts any creature can possess if said creature is chosen by its specific circumstances.

 

 

 

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

2 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

About types of magic: some magic clings to a creature type but some clings to a specific person. Earth ponies and unicorns cannot stand on clouds without magical aids. Pegasi and earth ponies cannot cast sells without tools. Unicorns and pegasi ... well, earth pony magic is pretty underwhelming. We say they are connected to earth and nature but are they really? Timber wolves, the nature elementals, they don't like them one bit, and these ponies don't understand the Everfree.

 

You my friend, need to rewatch Applebuck Season. The way the apples fall effortlessly and perfectly into the barrels in the exact same way and manner could mean a type of kinetic magic being transferred from hoof to tree in a sort of telekinetic order of sorts. Not only that but multiple earth ponies have been shown to have unnatural speeds when they choose to, and incalculable strength at others. Whether they feel this magic within themselves needs to be used or not is the determining factor into whether it happens or not. When a mothers child is stuck under a car they can flip the car, so too do earth ponies magic act in scenarios when they feel the need for  a certain show of strength or speed necessary. Then there is their natural endurance and stamina which could be argued is another side effect of this magic. They can run harder faster and longer than any other pony's. For Celestias sake a team of four can pull 8 train cars including engine and caboose as well as all the ponies and their luggage inside for days nonstop while sleeping! They are never ending balls of power and energy! And just to impress upon you this feat, those train cars can weigh hundreds of thousands of pounds at their lightest and those ponies tug them around like its nothing! Earth ponies have an amazing magic on them, its not possible otherwise

In regards to spell activation, I always held the belief that it consisted of three or so steps: prep, action and power. You must prep your mind and body to flow the magic into your foci, in this case the horn, and focus on the sequence of events as you need them to happen in a single moment or over the course of a period of time. Next you take the action to complete each step either prepping the beam of magic that contains these preparations and will activate them accordingly or will take them one at a time for more complex spells. Lastly is the power necessary to complete the spell, for if you fall short and dont cap off the spell, its like trapping steam in a bottle- you can get it in, but without capping it or putting something to keep the magic where it is, it will dissipate and fail. This is also why a lot of spells need to be charged in the horn to be properly used, if they dont have enough power to complete the transfer of the magic, then it all just falls back into their bodies instead of becoming wasted energy. Or at least this is how I see it as shown in the show

[Goat-kun 2,527]

9 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

You my friend, need to rewatch Applebuck Season. The way the apples fall effortlessly and perfectly into the barrels in the exact same way and manner could mean a type of kinetic magic being transferred from hoof to tree in a sort of telekinetic order of sorts. Not only that but multiple earth ponies have been shown to have unnatural speeds when they choose to, and incalculable strength at others. Whether they feel this magic within themselves needs to be used or not is the determining factor into whether it happens or not. When a mothers child is stuck under a car they can flip the car, so too do earth ponies magic act in scenarios when they feel the need for  a certain show of strength or speed necessary. Then there is their natural endurance and stamina which could be argued is another side effect of this magic. They can run harder faster and longer than any other pony's. For Celestias sake a team of four can pull 8 train cars including engine and caboose as well as all the ponies and their luggage inside for days nonstop while sleeping! They are never ending balls of power and energy! And just to impress upon you this feat, those train cars can weigh hundreds of thousands of pounds at their lightest and those ponies tug them around like its nothing! Earth ponies have an amazing magic on them, its not possible otherwise

In regards to spell activation, I always held the belief that it consisted of three or so steps: prep, action and power. You must prep your mind and body to flow the magic into your foci, in this case the horn, and focus on the sequence of events as you need them to happen in a single moment or over the course of a period of time. Next you take the action to complete each step either prepping the beam of magic that contains these preparations and will activate them accordingly or will take them one at a time for more complex spells. Lastly is the power necessary to complete the spell, for if you fall short and dont cap off the spell, its like trapping steam in a bottle- you can get it in, but without capping it or putting something to keep the magic where it is, it will dissipate and fail. This is also why a lot of spells need to be charged in the horn to be properly used, if they dont have enough power to complete the transfer of the magic, then it all just falls back into their bodies instead of becoming wasted energy. Or at least this is how I see it as shown in the show

I've also seen AJ enlist the help of RD to demolish a barn, so there's that. Also seen Fluttershy pull an entire balloon full of ponies with relative ease. Also seen RD showing proficiency at kicking large rocks. I'm not really convinced on earth magic. I have a feeling writers share this sentiment.

 

 

Ah, so we're also talking about the anatomy of magical flow within a living creature. What do you know about chakras and meridian lines? These are the nexuses and veins where raw power gathers and flows, its only characteristics being those of chakras and creature's overall status. A spell is then a magic accumulation within the user programmed to do a certain thing by heart and mind. It is similar to how Qi users can utilize the spiritual energy to heal or destroy. It takes concentration on specific thoughts and feelings. What follows is the interaction with a target and its threshold for a miracle. On this very intrinsic level the magic itself is not perceived as a projectile but as a series of mana waves that emanate from a meridian tangle of a sentient being that are then translated through the mana meshwork of the universe. However, this theory is a bit taboo since it places ponies, paragons of friendship and harmony, as mere conduits in the greater meshwork of mana currents within the universe. It states that magic does not come from within; it is only contained there for a brief time before it slips back into the flow. Though it does offer an explanation on where magic goes once it is released and why it only has a limited effect. It is also taboo cause it hints that magic is a neutral force that can be wielded by just about any creature that has understanding of its nature. So a diamond dog could become as powerful as an alicorn though its magic wouldn't display the same properties.

 

 

Oh boy, I think I just drove through all the stop signs

 

 

But I need to write just one more thing on earth ponies. In light of what is written above, earth ponies do not display magic that is connected to earth or nature. They display magic that is connected to horses. Of all the ponies, they can most easily manifest the positive characteristics of horses and enhance them. Still weak though. Nothing a cheap "party cannon with sharp, iron confetti" cannot handle.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Goat-kun

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Sorry for not responding in a while @Goat-kun, holiday stuff. And I see that we are at a disagreement here, and thats not a bad thing. Personally I appreciate a differing opinion and the arguments it can bring. To move on then, how about we talk about the magic of Cutie Marks? My first thought is that a cutie mark may be influenced by the life lived by each individual pony and could change based on changes in life until the point when it is emblazoned on ones flank. It is my understanding that it is much the same as a kind of behaviour that can develop from different influences in life. This is why names often times can relate to the cutie mark greatly, as well as influence it directly. The name is given by the parents, who determine the lifestyle and surroundings of the foals still waiting on their CM's. This is not always true however, as sometimes anomalies happen and can change the narrative a bit. Take the CMC, they formed a group dedicated to finding their special talents, but they still had CM's that were reminiscent of what they thought they were implied to be like, and were changed by a connection to each other and the making of the Crusaders.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

1 hour ago, Sagely Thyme said:

Sorry for not responding in a while @Goat-kun, holiday stuff. And I see that we are at a disagreement here, and thats not a bad thing. Personally I appreciate a differing opinion and the arguments it can bring. To move on then, how about we talk about the magic of Cutie Marks? My first thought is that a cutie mark may be influenced by the life lived by each individual pony and could change based on changes in life until the point when it is emblazoned on ones flank. It is my understanding that it is much the same as a kind of behaviour that can develop from different influences in life. This is why names often times can relate to the cutie mark greatly, as well as influence it directly. The name is given by the parents, who determine the lifestyle and surroundings of the foals still waiting on their CM's. This is not always true however, as sometimes anomalies happen and can change the narrative a bit. Take the CMC, they formed a group dedicated to finding their special talents, but they still had CM's that were reminiscent of what they thought they were implied to be like, and were changed by a connection to each other and the making of the Crusaders.

In Greek mythology you have Fates. I believe this is similar. Cutie marks are just a minor manifestation of the tapestry destiny weaves that appear when ponies uncover them. In other words, it's all predetermined, including the events that are leading up to the appearance of a cutie mark. Can destiny be changed? Not in canon. There exists no entity in FIM that can be regarded as a fish leaping above the surface of causality, though the river I speak of cannot be perceived by any entity within FIM either

[Jeric 46,851]

I'm impressed that I just read an analogy that connected magic to this

 

I'm now sitting here trying to determine if Chaos Magic follows the analogy further to describe refractory periods and depolarization/repolarization. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

I'm impressed that I just read an analogy that connected magic to this

I'm now sitting here trying to determine if Chaos Magic follows the analogy further to describe refractory periods and depolarization/repolarization. 

FIM chaos magic is normal magic with re-entry. Discord is basically magic having a VF. Defibrillate with Harmony or dark magic ... and give 1hg of friendship

 

Stick around Jerry Boy. Thaumetic Threshold™ is only the first station in the rabbit hole.

 

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

On 12/30/2017 at 7:52 PM, Jeric said:

I'm impressed that I just read an analogy that connected magic to this

 

I'm now sitting here trying to determine if Chaos Magic follows the analogy further to describe refractory periods and depolarization/repolarization. 

I legitimitly dont know who was talking about what at this point in regards to that (probably goat tbh)but im glad you are having a good time of it bringing science and magic together!

On 12/30/2017 at 7:33 PM, Goat-kun said:

In Greek mythology you have Fates. I believe this is similar. Cutie marks are just a minor manifestation of the tapestry destiny weaves that appear when ponies uncover them. In other words, it's all predetermined, including the events that are leading up to the appearance of a cutie mark. Can destiny be changed? Not in canon. There exists no entity in FIM that can be regarded as a fish leaping above the surface of causality, though the river I speak of cannot be perceived by any entity within FIM either

I feel like that is a fair point, but if i may offer a counter to it. Should your statement of a weaved destiny hold true, who is to say that all things exist on a single tapestry without any possible deviation. There is not need to jump through and above causality if causality is still planned with the potential in mind. Take for instance things along the lines of multiverse theory. Multiple timelines that werent suddenly made from nothing, but instead exist in tandem with all other forms of what exists already. An example of this train of thought would be Applebloom. She and the CMC happen to all be trying to find their cutie marks, but say the day they got them ended differently because of one small deviation, resulting in them no longer having said cutie marks? What is to say that she could exist forever without a cutie mark? I like to think that this kind of causality is possible when looking at the grand scheme of things. Sure the path can be straight and whole on one side, but on the other it could be many deviant paths combining to make one new one. 

All in all I think that there isnt a need to supersede fate if all fates are accounted for, and we are only shown one. 

Also I think I lost my own point somewhere in that (its been a while since I thought in depth on cutie marks and their potential to change or alter lives in the ponyverse)

[Goat-kun 2,527]

19 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

I legitimitly dont know who was talking about what at this point in regards to that (probably goat tbh)but im glad you are having a good time of it bringing science and magic together!

I feel like that is a fair point, but if i may offer a counter to it. Should your statement of a weaved destiny hold true, who is to say that all things exist on a single tapestry without any possible deviation. There is not need to jump through and above causality if causality is still planned with the potential in mind. Take for instance things along the lines of multiverse theory. Multiple timelines that werent suddenly made from nothing, but instead exist in tandem with all other forms of what exists already. An example of this train of thought would be Applebloom. She and the CMC happen to all be trying to find their cutie marks, but say the day they got them ended differently because of one small deviation, resulting in them no longer having said cutie marks? What is to say that she could exist forever without a cutie mark? I like to think that this kind of causality is possible when looking at the grand scheme of things. Sure the path can be straight and whole on one side, but on the other it could be many deviant paths combining to make one new one. 

All in all I think that there isnt a need to supersede fate if all fates are accounted for, and we are only shown one. 

Also I think I lost my own point somewhere in that (its been a while since I thought in depth on cutie marks and their potential to change or alter lives in the ponyverse)

You are correct. However, all those paths are still destinies. They subside within the current of causality. One action leads to another, predictably following one possible branched strand of destiny. For what we know, all these paths do not represent unlimited possibilities but unlimited variation of limited possibilities. A certain pony may only express one true cutie mark or express none at all. They will always have the possibility to express only one. Perhaps the cutie mark can transform, but for it to change or vanish completely? Unlikely. To become a weaver of destiny is something that would go against everything FIM stands for. Such freedom could make you resistant to the meddling influence of Harmony, a power Equestria must not ignore. That goes together with understanding of magic. The more you know the more you can twist the rules, and the more you can twist them the stronger you get.

 

I wonder if non-pones share the same principles.

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Just now, Goat-kun said:

You are correct. However, all those paths are still destinies. They subside within the current of causality. One action leads to another, predictably following one possible branched strand of destiny. For what we know, all these paths do not represent unlimited possibilities but unlimited variation of limited possibilities. A certain pony may only express one true cutie mark or express none at all. They will always have the possibility to express only one. Perhaps the cutie mark can transform, but for it to change or vanish completely? Unlikely. To become a weaver of destiny is something that would go against everything FIM stands for. Such freedom could make you resistant to the meddling influence of Harmony, a power Equestria must not ignore. That goes together with understanding of magic. The more you know the more you can twist the rules, and the more you can twist them the stronger you get.

To be honest I don't see it the same way. For instance if their is only one true path as you say, but multiple ways to get their,then does their special talent even count as special. By your logic that would mean that it doesn't matter what you like, you'll always be special in a way you may not enjoy (see Trouble Shoes). I feel like while that may be what the truth is, it certainly isnt what the show paints the idea of cutie marks to be. Take, if you will, the idea of free choice, if free choice is put into the mix then they may find they love something else, but by your logic they are unable to be truly talented in that field lest they change their set standard of fate. I believe this contradicts the point the show makes more than anything else, as it diminishes the fate of each pony into "you go there and do this and you'll like it". I think it would be much more logical to say that the magic inside oneself happens to grow and change as one grows:  a pony could be given something they are attuned with but not enjoy. I think this shows a more likely predisposition to the cutie mark becoming like a part of oneself, for better or worse, and it coincides with how one sees themselves. Almost like a badge of honor for having figured out what they want in life and how it will affect them from then on. Overall, it is meant to be a sign of finding oneself, and as a result can change as does the flow of fate. It may be one river, but the same bits of water might never follow the same branch of said river. It may be one string, but it can be made into many different tapestries and designs. To diminish it by saying that it is predetermined and always set in stone really takes away from the unique nature and unwieldy  nature of both living things and the magic we have seen thus far in the show.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

33 minutes ago, Sagely Thyme said:

To be honest I don't see it the same way. For instance if their is only one true path as you say, but multiple ways to get their,then does their special talent even count as special. By your logic that would mean that it doesn't matter what you like, you'll always be special in a way you may not enjoy (see Trouble Shoes). I feel like while that may be what the truth is, it certainly isnt what the show paints the idea of cutie marks to be. Take, if you will, the idea of free choice, if free choice is put into the mix then they may find they love something else, but by your logic they are unable to be truly talented in that field lest they change their set standard of fate. I believe this contradicts the point the show makes more than anything else, as it diminishes the fate of each pony into "you go there and do this and you'll like it". I think it would be much more logical to say that the magic inside oneself happens to grow and change as one grows:  a pony could be given something they are attuned with but not enjoy. I think this shows a more likely predisposition to the cutie mark becoming like a part of oneself, for better or worse, and it coincides with how one sees themselves. Almost like a badge of honor for having figured out what they want in life and how it will affect them from then on. Overall, it is meant to be a sign of finding oneself, and as a result can change as does the flow of fate. It may be one river, but the same bits of water might never follow the same branch of said river. It may be one string, but it can be made into many different tapestries and designs. To diminish it by saying that it is predetermined and always set in stone really takes away from the unique nature and unwieldy  nature of both living things and the magic we have seen thus far in the show.

One's decisions do matter, but only to a certain degree. From further you look onto the whole union of possibilities, the more insignificant these decisions will become as you begin to discern the limits of destinies. This is no longer only a river, but a network of currents within an enclosed sea.

 

The whole pool of possible destinies does take one's traits into account. In fact, those traits are a big part of this whole thing and many of them quite possibly determine the cutie mark. I believe that a cutie mark is more a manifestation of knowledge about oneself than a manifestation of any given power. So yes, I do agree that it is a sign of finding oneself. Still, no matter how you try to change your destiny, you can only change it as much as you are allowed to within the realm of your own possibilities.

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Just now, Goat-kun said:

One's decisions do matter, but only to a certain degree. From further you look onto the whole union of possibilities, the more insignificant these decisions will become as you begin to discern the limits of destinies. This is no longer only a river, but a network of currents within an enclosed sea.

 

 

 

The whole pool of possible destinies does take one's traits into account. In fact, those traits are a big part of this whole thing and many of them quite possibly determine the cutie mark. I believe that a cutie mark is more a manifestation of knowledge about oneself than a manifestation of any given power. So yes, I do agree that it is a sign of finding oneself. Still, no matter how you try to change your destiny, you can only change it as much as you are allowed to within the realm of your own possibilities.

I agree wholeheartedly my good Goat-kun. If I may say I think you are right to there being a limit as to how much someone can change but then so too is there a time when such change becomes all but impossible. As we grow and adapt so too do our beliefs and emotions, but our ability to change these parts of our self dwindles. I think that the younger the better one can change but at the age when they begin to choose their fates and realize their futures, it may already be a bit too late for any serious deviations. I think we have reached a nice common ground, and since I have mostly dictated where this goes, I leave our next point of discussion or contention to you my good quadruped.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

On 1/10/2018 at 12:34 AM, Sagely Thyme said:

I agree wholeheartedly my good Goat-kun. If I may say I think you are right to there being a limit as to how much someone can change but then so too is there a time when such change becomes all but impossible. As we grow and adapt so too do our beliefs and emotions, but our ability to change these parts of our self dwindles. I think that the younger the better one can change but at the age when they begin to choose their fates and realize their futures, it may already be a bit too late for any serious deviations. I think we have reached a nice common ground, and since I have mostly dictated where this goes, I leave our next point of discussion or contention to you my good quadruped.

We've dealt with form and layout. There's not much to be said about pony magic. One needs to go deeper. Tree of Harmony, no, beyond. To become an alicorn is to obtain the ultimate pony power, but is that the limit? There is another path to power that may require different if not even greater understanding of harmony and friendship yet has no need for horns and glimmer. This power is so great that it allows even a hapless weakling to withstand a direct assault from all the champions of Equestria. Darkness, what is your take on it. Can anypony tap into this deep black pool without being consumed? How should one approach this?

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

...

Darkness is as always an antithesis to the light. It must be an opposite for it to be at all. But still it exists even when there is no light to be seen. I see darkness as a source of things, and it can be found in many things in both the nature of the world and in the nature of living things. I find that it is a dark and coniving force that has been present since the beginning but only now given a name. By its nature it is decieful and relies on doubt, the darkness within a living thing. But so too is it empowered, for it is impossible for it to sustain itself without such dark things, but eventually, either by its own nature or by attuning itself to its host, it might become more through rage and aggression. It consumes both this and the remaining light to save those it possesses, but with time and caution one can find such things lacking. They exist as does conflict, and like all conflict it will never be truly destroyed by violence alone, instead it must be fought with words and reason. If this power is to be almighty, it is only by which the means of its strength is not found. Only when it grows through violence and fighting does it truly thrive and only by peace can it be vanquished.

We see this in the show, as it is through talking and understanding that the thing becomes weak enough to truly be done with, as it loses its food source and its host. So too in the case of Luna can we see something similar, truly the thousand years was enough to solidify Luna's transformation into Nightmare Moon and let the hate fester enough to become more than its host, but I think it is fair to say that while it grew, Luna regressed and became more weakened allowing for her to want to forgive and move on, but being unable to because she had already lost control. This is rectified when the Elements of Harmony, arguably a physical representation of the very things which this darkness cannot exist in, uses their power to free the now weak and fragile Luna allowing her the chance at redemption. The entity known as Nightmare Moon is gone as the host no longer sought aggression and as such could not remain there, regardless of how strong it was at the time of its revival/release from the moon. At some point it stopped feeding off of the host and became its own. And here in lies the answer to your last questions: No pony can dive the depths of that pool and return unscathed or untouched. They will return infested and tainted by the darkness within and without. It will truly act as the most powerful of weapons, but just as rage can make us lose ourselves, so to can we become lost in this. Perhaps if one trained they could become one with it and act in symbiosis, but truly I do not believe that they will ever have any true control, and will instead be merely a vessel thinking that it can act on its own, but in reality slowly growing to align with the Darknesses desires and eventually succumbing to it. At best, to approach it should entail years of training in control over oneself while still keeping the underlying problems in need of control, a weak mind but a strong will, and even then the pony or being in question should make of it a temporary arrangement so as to become neither attached nor dependant lest they fall victim to it.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

On 1/11/2018 at 4:28 AM, Sagely Thyme said:

...

Darkness is as always an antithesis to the light. It must be an opposite for it to be at all. But still it exists even when there is no light to be seen. I see darkness as a source of things, and it can be found in many things in both the nature of the world and in the nature of living things. I find that it is a dark and coniving force that has been present since the beginning but only now given a name. By its nature it is decieful and relies on doubt, the darkness within a living thing. But so too is it empowered, for it is impossible for it to sustain itself without such dark things, but eventually, either by its own nature or by attuning itself to its host, it might become more through rage and aggression. It consumes both this and the remaining light to save those it possesses, but with time and caution one can find such things lacking. They exist as does conflict, and like all conflict it will never be truly destroyed by violence alone, instead it must be fought with words and reason. If this power is to be almighty, it is only by which the means of its strength is not found. Only when it grows through violence and fighting does it truly thrive and only by peace can it be vanquished.

We see this in the show, as it is through talking and understanding that the thing becomes weak enough to truly be done with, as it loses its food source and its host. So too in the case of Luna can we see something similar, truly the thousand years was enough to solidify Luna's transformation into Nightmare Moon and let the hate fester enough to become more than its host, but I think it is fair to say that while it grew, Luna regressed and became more weakened allowing for her to want to forgive and move on, but being unable to because she had already lost control. This is rectified when the Elements of Harmony, arguably a physical representation of the very things which this darkness cannot exist in, uses their power to free the now weak and fragile Luna allowing her the chance at redemption. The entity known as Nightmare Moon is gone as the host no longer sought aggression and as such could not remain there, regardless of how strong it was at the time of its revival/release from the moon. At some point it stopped feeding off of the host and became its own. And here in lies the answer to your last questions: No pony can dive the depths of that pool and return unscathed or untouched. They will return infested and tainted by the darkness within and without. It will truly act as the most powerful of weapons, but just as rage can make us lose ourselves, so to can we become lost in this. Perhaps if one trained they could become one with it and act in symbiosis, but truly I do not believe that they will ever have any true control, and will instead be merely a vessel thinking that it can act on its own, but in reality slowly growing to align with the Darknesses desires and eventually succumbing to it. At best, to approach it should entail years of training in control over oneself while still keeping the underlying problems in need of control, a weak mind but a strong will, and even then the pony or being in question should make of it a temporary arrangement so as to become neither attached nor dependant lest they fall victim to it.

This is a good definition of darkness from fantasy of yore. New age offers a more complex approach.

 

Darkness is something more profound: a primordial force in opposition to light that keeps everything in equilibrium. Wizards think that Tree of Life is only one (read about sephiroth from Kabbalah for further understanding). That there is only one type of emanation: light. What if there are more emanations? The two Trees representing light and darkness with "roots" merging in Malkuth, the Kingdom of matter and mortality. That is why all have light and darkness within them. However, Malkuth is not a homogenous realm. It leads both into brighter light and deeper darkness. The reason why our perceived environment seems homogenous to us/ponies is because beings of same astral composition tend to aggregate and form subrealms. Most ever notice or even pass into these other places.

 

Now that the basic principles have been addressed, let's get back to ponies. Firs I must address the nightmare situation with this statement: All magic can be used for evil. A nightmare is created when pony magic goes berserk from inner turmoil; however, I do not see this as dark magic. Look closely: all nightmares use sparkling magic that belongs to light. It casts no shadows, and even the Eternal Night was host to shining moon and stars. Nightmares belong to light.

 

I believe that ponies are mostly luminous beings. Devoid of magic, they lose their color, their vitality, their magic, even their cutie marks can disappear. To truly accept darkness one must first throw away the light.

 

So what is the shadow? I can only assume that it is a sort of sentient manifestation of dark magic born within one's heart under conditions not unlike those in Silent Hill. Stygian and Sombra are the two with firmest connection to darkness. The former was lost in a purgatory made out of his fears and bad memories, and the latter knew spells to achieve a similar effect. From this I can gather that such a mental purgatory must be overcome in order for it to acknowledge you. After demonstrating worthiness and knowledge of self, one would have to offer themselves as a vessel in exchange for power. They would lose the ability to practice any magic connected to light along with their destiny, and in turn they would gain a magic that is completely different. This magic likes to shroud the user and interact with its environment via its shadowy tendrils, but most importantly, it seems to prefer strength of an individual entity while light prefers to shine through unity. Light and darkness are equal in power, but their different approaches make darkness a far more versatile and "cost-effective" tool. The drawback is being constantly possessed with your own dark self while quite possibly becoming a colorless blank flank. Plus all the Harmony and friendship magic stuff would likely make you weak and nauseous. But hey, nothing is perfect, and this too would be a weird kind of friendship.

[Magic_Spark 154]

Ok time to chime in. 

Lets look at some show facts. 

1. The main 6 are close to the same age. We see this in the episode that shows them getting cutie marks. Rainbow dash's sonic rainboom was a result. 

2. The main 6 may have been born with the elements representation during some magical event. (We only know they represent the elements based on the strong personality they posses that matches the element. This is probably why they can wield the power.

3. As stated above Magic is everywhere. Its what makes the land work and function. Its a flowing energy field that binds the world. This is why the evil villains are after it.

 

Magic is the energy that is used by all creatures. Even the dragons. Just not as strong or noticeable. By the way the gems may give the dragons the ability to breath fire in this world. 

In order to channel energy you need a place to pool it to build it up. Compare the horns of Twilight and Celestia. Celestia's horn is 3 times as long. This is mainly to show age however she can pool a great deal of magical energy. Celestia used the elements without the help of others. When Twilight took on the magic of all 3 alacorns it wasn't the actual energy but rather the power to wield it. Sorta like getting the talent rather than a large amount of energy. Twilight did have trouble at first but used the combined ability to battle more effectively than one alacorn can. The cutie mark is not connected directly to their power as they have it without one. Flurry heart could wield more magic than Twilight and Flurry was not even breaking a sweat. When Starlight Glimmer took the cutie marks away it was not just the cutie marks she took. It was their ability to control and wield magic. She can also switch the marks which is the natural tallent and not the main power. Celestia raised the sun and moon in Luna's absence.

Also there is an episode with Maud Pie where she tells Starlight that there are gems that can make her so powerful she could take over the entire land. This implies that gems can be used to provide magical conduits. This is the reason the alacorn amulet allows Trixie to become more powerful.

So in order for a unicorn to become more powerful, I would say experience, endurance, capacity and emotional state would all be factors. A greater capacity could result in more magical energy being released but would not be good with one that is more experienced and had much more endurance. Being able to shoot a large magical burst means you have to be a perfect shot as you waited to recharge. Where as one that has endurance and experience they can fire multiple shots to wear down the opponent rather than shoot it all at once. 

Ok so this is the general magic that all ponies possess. What about the most powerful magic? Its not even the same as what I just talked about. Its the power of the mind when bonding with another and the show calls it friendship. The love power if you will. This is what powers the elements up and makes the main 6 virtually unstoppable. 

Discord uses the same type of magic and he is quite powerful. Yet he is not as powerful as the elements when wielded by the main 6. 

Other than those that created the elements I do not think that there are any other ponies that are as powerful. Also Flurry Heart has a huge amount of power she is still a baby. I think that she might become a very powerful alacorn. Even more powerful than Twilight or Celestia. 

Someone mentioned the school for gifted unicorns. I think it was meant for gifted as in IQ not raw power. Despite the raw power twilight had. Twilight became Celestia's pupil because of her raw power and her IQ combination. I do not think Celestia would have given much attention if it was just IQ. Sunbirst did attend the school cause of his IQ. He could easily understand spells but lacked the ability to do the more difficult ones. Levitation and a few others but not like others. Starlight didn't but you do not have to study under a teacher to learn. I am not certain aobout the dragon egg entrance exam. I think it was a placement test. Sort like where do you fit. There wasn't much said about it and I would guess that because Twilight made it hatch that the prize was her keeping the dragon and becoming Celestia's favorite.

 

 

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

13 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Now that the basic principles have been addressed, let's get back to ponies. Firs I must address the nightmare situation with this statement: All magic can be used for evil. A nightmare is created when pony magic goes berserk from inner turmoil; however, I do not see this as dark magic. Look closely: all nightmares use sparkling magic that belongs to light. It casts no shadows, and even the Eternal Night was host to shining moon and stars. Nightmares belong to light.

In regards to shadow magic and darkness, I would like to recompose my end statement: darkness and shadow magic have a propensity to be used in an evil manner. Not necessarily made only for evil, just a stronger predilection for it. Also, darkness and shadows tend to draw from the negative, and as a result could lead to enhancing those negative emotions subconsciously, which is why I argued the point that any usage of these magics be limited and pre-planned.  

Next, on the issue of Nightmare Moon, I would argue against that, saying that she used Shadow type magic, a dark subset, to create her minions and the turmoil she caused en route to the elements. And in addition to this point, that light of which you speak is a remnant from Nightmares time as luna, making her a magical hybrid of sorts allowing for both light and dark. An asthetic, by the way, could be just that, an asthetic and nothing more. OR it could be representative of the darkness choking out the light withing trying to hold it back. Either way I am of the mind that Nightmare is dark and light, but Luna is light alone.

 

13 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

I believe that ponies are mostly luminous beings. Devoid of magic, they lose their color, their vitality, their magic, even their cutie marks can disappear. To truly accept darkness one must first throw away the light.

I would have to agree with this as we have been shown this time and again. Nothing much more to say.

13 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

So what is the shadow? I can only assume that it is a sort of sentient manifestation of dark magic born within one's heart under conditions not unlike those in Silent Hill. Stygian and Sombra are the two with firmest connection to darkness. The former was lost in a purgatory made out of his fears and bad memories, and the latter knew spells to achieve a similar effect. From this I can gather that such a mental purgatory must be overcome in order for it to acknowledge you. After demonstrating worthiness and knowledge of self, one would have to offer themselves as a vessel in exchange for power. They would lose the ability to practice any magic connected to light along with their destiny, and in turn they would gain a magic that is completely different. This magic likes to shroud the user and interact with its environment via its shadowy tendrils, but most importantly, it seems to prefer strength of an individual entity while light prefers to shine through unity. Light and darkness are equal in power, but their different approaches make darkness a far more versatile and "cost-effective" tool. The drawback is being constantly possessed with your own dark self while quite possibly becoming a colorless blank flank. Plus all the Harmony and friendship magic stuff would likely make you weak and nauseous. But hey, nothing is perfect, and this too would be a weird kind of friendship.

 

With Stygian I agree, but if i am not mistaken, I do believe that Sombra is actually a "shadow pony" and was the last of his kind. His whole purpose in his overthrowing of the crystal kingdom was to revive the rest of his race and take over the world, which we see in the time traveling episode with Starlight Glimmer. Back on track, I would like to argue that instead of it needing to acknowledge your strength of mind, it looks for weakness. Now hear me out on this: Stygian is the best example to work with; a brilliant pony with a bright future and a good friend to the most important ponies on the face of the earth. He makes one *big* mistake and his friends abandon him, he falls down a dark path mentally and then is offered power to get back at them. He is in a weakened state both mentally and emotionally, the shadow saw this and took advantage, giving way to the dark specter we saw cling to him for its very life. All other points based on the usage and practice of using this magic, however, i do find myself agreeing with most of this, save for the final point. I find it to be more a relation akin to a puppet being controlled by a puppeteer: the puppet thinks they are in full control when in reality they are merely a means to an end and a physical form for the shadow to inhabit.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

On 1/13/2018 at 4:04 PM, Sagely Thyme said:

In regards to shadow magic and darkness, I would like to recompose my end statement: darkness and shadow magic have a propensity to be used in an evil manner. Not necessarily made only for evil, just a stronger predilection for it. Also, darkness and shadows tend to draw from the negative, and as a result could lead to enhancing those negative emotions subconsciously, which is why I argued the point that any usage of these magics be limited and pre-planned.  

Next, on the issue of Nightmare Moon, I would argue against that, saying that she used Shadow type magic, a dark subset, to create her minions and the turmoil she caused en route to the elements. And in addition to this point, that light of which you speak is a remnant from Nightmares time as luna, making her a magical hybrid of sorts allowing for both light and dark. An asthetic, by the way, could be just that, an asthetic and nothing more. OR it could be representative of the darkness choking out the light withing trying to hold it back. Either way I am of the mind that Nightmare is dark and light, but Luna is light alone.

You can interpret the negativity not as an effect but as its tendency to cull the weak. Such a characteristic would further solidify darkness as a selfish magic that likes to function on the level of an individual while shunning the frail and the cowardly.

 

Nightmare Moon may feel dark due to her affiliation with night but she is still the mistress of night lights. Her very magic is illuminating the darkness. Sombra is the closest thing we have to a shadow user ... Well, had, since IDW comics kinda ruined him. Though, he is not a pony but an Umbrum. These guys are close to incorporeal shadows themselves.

On 1/13/2018 at 4:04 PM, Sagely Thyme said:

I would like to argue that instead of it needing to acknowledge your strength of mind, it looks for weakness. Now hear me out on this: Stygian is the best example to work with; a brilliant pony with a bright future and a good friend to the most important ponies on the face of the earth. He makes one *big* mistake and his friends abandon him, he falls down a dark path mentally and then is offered power to get back at them. He is in a weakened state both mentally and emotionally, the shadow saw this and took advantage, giving way to the dark specter we saw cling to him for its very life. All other points based on the usage and practice of using this magic, however, i do find myself agreeing with most of this, save for the final point. I find it to be more a relation akin to a puppet being controlled by a puppeteer: the puppet thinks they are in full control when in reality they are merely a means to an end and a physical form for the shadow to inhabit.

Exactly, it looks for weaknesses. Why would it serve if it can exploit all those weaknesses and consume you? You need to step up your game and demonstrate that you are the king of your astral domain in spite of them. Your shadow needs to either accept the leash or scurry back into the abyss. Of course, somepony like Stygian could never do it. He only wanted power in order for others to acknowledge him. Summoning a shadow that exploits your shortcomings because you want to fix your shortcomings is foolish. However, if the shadow got summoned on its own, then you can just mark it down as a predictable behavioral pattern of a magical vulture that likes to prey on the weak. But it is exactly this kind of reasoning that actually makes darkness more prone to cooperation than light which tends to shun ambitions of an individual in favor of greater good. It is light that plays the puppeteer through Harmony.

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

On 1/16/2018 at 1:41 PM, Goat-kun said:

Nightmare Moon may feel dark due to her affiliation with night but she is still the mistress of night lights. Her very magic is illuminating the darkness. Sombra is the closest thing we have to a shadow user ... Well, had, since IDW comics kinda ruined him. Though, he is not a pony but an Umbrum. These guys are close to incorporeal shadows themselves.

Firstly I agree that Nightmare Moon is part light, but in whole she is neither completely, she is light and dark, both Luna's stars and the shadows that bore her as a Nightmare. Secondly it has been stated before that all comics can be treated as extended or alternate universes, so we are still a-ok to call Sombra a living example of perfect unison via Shadow magic. I would like to initiate conversation on the nature of this relationship as it seems to differ greatly from Stygian's. As we can see sombra is an individual full of malice and scorn, leading me to assume his emotion would be anger as the one that the shadow latched onto. This leads to a more powerful dynamic than before, because not only was it an individual who was strong alone, but so to was the emotion that it attached to. I think it is safe to say that the relationship was optimal in particular because the shadow only had to sit back and let sombra do the work as an evil being, and would have much more ambient negative emotion to feed off of through his subjugation of the crystal ponies. 

This brings me to my next hypothesis based only on assumptions and some small data pulled. Could shadows act as an inverse to changelings, in that they require emotion to live but not necessarily direct emotional contact. As we have seen there are cases where shadows will form to give power to a being, but at the same time they both amplify and encourage said emotions. Also, we have almost every case being one where the potential host had the capabilities to create an almost unlimited stream of negative emotions through their actions. Should it be so insane to consider the fact that maybe a select few inhabit ponies so that they may create more negative emotion for the rest of their clan/race without the need to be a potential threat. By this i mean that one shadow would inhabit a being, give them power to act on their negative emotions, these actions would create more negative emotions on which the others could feed, and by proxy only one must suffer if they fail. This would allow them to harvest the necessary emotions to survive but not paint them as a potential threat that must be dealt with like a pest pony would any other invasive and dangerous species. 

 

On 1/16/2018 at 1:41 PM, Goat-kun said:

Exactly, it looks for weaknesses. Why would it serve if it can exploit all those weaknesses and consume you? You need to step up your game and demonstrate that you are the king of your astral domain in spite of them. Your shadow needs to either accept the leash or scurry back into the abyss. Of course, somepony like Stygian could never do it. He only wanted power in order for others to acknowledge him. Summoning a shadow that exploits your shortcomings because you want to fix your shortcomings is foolish. However, if the shadow got summoned on its own, then you can just mark it down as a predictable behavioral pattern of a magical vulture that likes to prey on the weak. But it is exactly this kind of reasoning that actually makes darkness more prone to cooperation than light which tends to shun ambitions of an individual in favor of greater good. It is light that plays the puppeteer through Harmony.

 

Now see, I feel that the shadow is never really summoned, it just appears and offers power. Even Stygian had a line describing how the darkness spoke to him, promising power and he took it. He never asked for it, he was offered it and acted. The shadows are ever present, we just don't see them because, as hypothesized before, they are smarter than that.

Also in terms of light, I feel it exists to keep a balance, it is not directly responsible for anything. The light merely grants powers to those it believes will keep a steady balance between the chaos and harmony of the world. This is why there are so many insane happenings in Equestria, and likely the whole world, that can go awry, but nothing to upset the balance. The villains we see are the true threats, leading to a great imbalance, only chaos or only control by their hands. As a result the Light grants the power to vanquish or dispel this great imbalance to allow for more peace between the two forces at work. It also doesn't stop anything, which is why I believe it doesn't really have anything to do with ambitions or anything, it just doesn't care. It's like a cat, its indifferent to the happenings of those around it, only interfering when it feels dissatisfied with its current existence. 

Having said all this, I do believe I would like to hear your ideas on whether or not there is any true way to gain the power without letting it inhabit you. Sure you can join with it for a boost but can you keep it separated and still retain the power? This is my next query to this topic, I await your answers.

 

 

 

@Magic_Spark   Sorry for not answering your post, but it honestly just felt like a bunch of statements on things we have already discussed, which is nice, but I think I'd like to hear your take on the current topic, if you dont mind me asking for it. 

[Magic_Spark 154]

Sagley: The topic is "Magic in MLP" 

I am confused. What topic are you referencing to?

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

12 hours ago, Magic_Spark said:

Sagley: The topic is "Magic in MLP" 

I am confused. What topic are you referencing to?

The topic at hand, a subtopic if you will, regarding our thoughts on Shadows and the nature of them in regards to magic and power in the shows universe. The Topic is Magic in MLP but here we discuss the many subtopics contained within that one, more so for pleasure than any real answers. Like a discussion board I suppose

[Magic_Spark 154]

Ok subtopic is of little interest. The magic is not split into 2 different parts. Its the same Even discord's magic is the same. There is nothing special there. Its the objective of the person wielding it. The visuals we see in the show are for our benefit. We see a dark power and we know it must mean evil or bad. So the magic that one holds is the same as another. The differences are Experience, Endurance and physical attributes of the wielder. So I do not believe that one is more powerful than the other or anything like that. 

Just my 2 Cents worth.