Wasn't Nightmare Moon unnecessary?

[Unity 332]

So, Luna turned into Nightmare Moon (NMM) because she thought everyone slept through her night, and that her sister was more loved than her, so jealousy piled up and then she turned to NMM.

But I really think that Luna could have avoided everything bad if she had just thought about it.

 

So now since she was imprisoned on the moon for a millennium, this tells us that their world was pretty different when she was ruling with her sister(the first time), i would say that it was almost medieval to them.

And while this is earth history and may not apply to them i think it is more than probable.

Beyond, before, and during the middle ages, most notably in Europe, they had a very different sleeping schedule than we did.

People would go to bed when the sun set, but then wake up a few hours later for about an hour or two and then they went back to bed, they did this for many reasons.

They did this because the full moon provided a lot of light and they used that light to prepare for work the next day, bakers would get the dough ready to rise, people would do chores, and a lot more.

And even in Equestria, i find it hard to believe that ponies did not do this. as it really just made sense, sure the people/ponies live by the light but they also need the night.

Also, Luna did not account for other things, like how she is responsible for every single nocturnal animal. She also provides a time to rest for literally everyone, making her as important as Celestia, which she did not see.

Do you think that NMM could have been avoided had Luna just given it more thought?

 

 

[FlareGun45 2,221]

Both Celestia and Luna were pretty young and didn't know better as they do now. Much like Celestia coulda used the Elements to turn Nightmare Moon back into Luna instead of Banishing her! So they both messed up and learned from the experience!  

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

I think it's highly likely that there was a bit more going on than just ponies sleeping through her night. Luna probably felt unappreciated in general. Think of how their jobs are shown in "A Royal Problem", Celestia's job is shown to be out and about with the public often, talking to ponies, going to events, smiling and waving. Meanwhile, Luna's job is shown to be much more solitary, she works during night, when most ponies are asleep, much less interaction with the public. She could have seen the way the ponies adoringly treat her sister during the day, and felt like they never gave her the same treatment, even if the night was just as important, she didn't feel like the ponies of Equestria thought so. They all wanted to be awake during the day, and spend time with her sister, and sing the praises of Celestia. It wasn't about how important or not her contributions were, it was about feeling underappreciated and like her important contributions were ignored, like their citizens loved Celestia and the day so much more than her and her night.

26 minutes ago, MegaSean45 said:

Much like Celestia coulda used the Elements to turn Nightmare Moon back into Luna instead of Banishing her!

I've always gotten the impression that she actually couldn't do that. After all, it's not like Twilight and friends consciously chose to reform Luna back to normal, they didn't even seem to really realize who she was until Celestia showed up. I feel like the Elements just worked differently when used by Celestia and the Mane 6, which would make sense. Celestia was a single pony trying to use all of them, no friends by her side, and she was using them against her own sister, I doubt she was feeling very harmonious at the time. Meanwhile, the Mane six are six ponies, who've begun to feel genuine feelings of friendship towards each other, who are currently representing the best of each element. The elements probably had more power to work with in the second case.

[Unity 332]

17 minutes ago, BasementSparkle said:

I think it's highly likely that there was a bit more going on than just ponies sleeping through her night. Luna probably felt unappreciated in general. Think of how their jobs are shown in "A Royal Problem", Celestia's job is shown to be out and about with the public often, talking to ponies, going to events, smiling and waving. Meanwhile, Luna's job is shown to be much more solitary, she works during night, when most ponies are asleep, much less interaction with the public. She could have seen the way the ponies adoringly treat her sister during the day, and felt like they never gave her the same treatment, even if the night was just as important, she didn't feel like the ponies of Equestria thought so. They all wanted to be awake during the day, and spend time with her sister, and sing the praises of Celestia. It wasn't about how important or not her contributions were, it was about feeling underappreciated and like her important contributions were ignored, like their citizens loved Celestia and the day so much more than her and her night.

3

I never really remembered how Celestia is pretty much treated as a queen but her and Luna are both equal.

But i still have a point, you just have to know how unappreciated you are.

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

25 minutes ago, Unity said:

But i still have a point, you just have to know how unappreciated you are.

Well, Luna did know how unappreciated she was, or at least how unappreciated she felt. That was why she became Nightmare Moon. I don't think she ever felt her night or her role was unimportant, I think she knew just how important it was, but felt like her subjects and her sister never acknowledged that, so she became bitter and resentful. She didn't just want to be important, she wanted to be treated like she was important, just as much as her sister.

 So, It was less about not being important, and more about feeling like she was treated unfairly for how important she was.

Edited August 27, 2018 by BasementSparkle

[Jordan D 149]

The reason why and how Luna became Nightmare Moon is way more complicated than it should be, and has been retconned and altered at least 8 times. The latest explanation I'm aware of is from Legends of Magic which changes it to where Luna  was corrupted by Stygian from another timeline in order to use her as a tool to reshape all of reality into his dark image after she accidentally opened up a portal to a world he destroyed, unleashing his darkness into Equestria. Apparently, Luna is known as "The Destroyer" in other world and was described as having "infinite power of destruction", which is why she was chosen to become Nightmare Moon. Celestia too, but I guess she was stronger willed? 

Older explanations have been:

-The narrative the show explained, which is the "most" canon one, I guess.

-That Nightmare is actually an alien being from another world/the moon who affected Luna, the king of Anugypt and...all the apples in Sweet Apple Acres once

-"Ethical Cancer" (yes, that's seriously what they call it), which turns good ponies bad by exaggerating their good traits to absurdity.The same story says NM isn't "actually" a byproduct of that disease, but it's left as a possibility

-Generic dark magic

[Jeric 46,854]

3 hours ago, Unity said:

But I really think that Luna could have avoided everything bad if she had just thought about it.

Yes she probably could have, however such is the poison of unresolved emotions that we drink it up, without a chaser of sense. 

[Unity 332]

19 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Yes she probably could have, however such is the poison of unresolved emotions that we drink it up, without a chaser of sense. 

God damnit.

Every time you quote me or respond to one of my topics I think I'm in trouble.

[Twilight Luna 31,414]

Both sisters were at fault. Luna was blinded by her jealousy and hatred for Celestia. Jealousy is like a cancer and cannot be easily removed. It grows and consumes the heart. Celestia was basking in the love of her subjects and didn’t think how it was affecting Luna until it was too late. Both were new to ruling and rarely talked because of their schedules. 

 “Soon did that poney discover that others did not give her sister her due. And neither had she loved her as she deserved. She watched as her sister’s unhappiness grew. But such is the way of the limelight that sweetly takes hold of the mind of its host. And that foolish poney did nothing to stop the destruction of the one who had needed her most.”

Edited August 27, 2018 by Twilight Luna

[Ganondorf8 11,338]

Luna could've talked to Celestia about how she was feeling but darkness--not the night but the evil variant--is so easy to succumb to as all it takes is for one single tiny thought and you become corrupted. Then again, had Nightmare Moon never come to pass, things would've been a lot different during those 1,000 years and perhaps the show itself.

[starrymiss 114]

The comics give an interesting insight on this. When Rarity is kidnapped and turned into Nightmare Rarity, we see she transformed because the evil spirits on the moon preyed on her insecurities. They also reassured her to make her trust them.

I can see Luna falling for that really easily, if she was thinking everyone hated her and her mastery of night. When you're lonely and self-loathing, you're very vulnerable and easily swayed. 

[Number62 1,258]

All the speculation is nice, so it's too bad the show never examined Princess Luna more closely.

Who knows what Equestria was like 1000 years ago because for all we know, their sleeping schedule even back then could've been the same.

But there are some questions I must ask. If Luna could dream-walk, did she just reluctantly do that job? Is helping others work through personal problems hardly praiseworthy to her? She could also interact with the respective pony while they dream, so did she just refuse to talk to them whenever she visited them? Or the ponies she helped all happen to hate her or the nighttime.

And according to the season 1 premiere and season 4 premiere, she was jealous about the ponies loving the daytime. Did she know that almost all ponies were diurnal? That sleep is a necessity like OP said? So she was essentially pissed off that other ponies had to follow their biological clocks. It's as stupid as it sounds.

Or fine. There's all this stuff about her feeling unappreciated, which sounds fine on paper. The problem is that this idea (more accurately, Luna's feelings) is never dramatized. I don't know anything about her relationship with the pony citizens or even her sister. Sure there's jealousy and resentment, but what about them? Were those feelings present even before the Nightmare Moon bullshit? Did Princess Celestia notice those feelings or not? Most would say that Celestia didn't notice, but what if she tried repeatedly with Luna resorting to a bunch of excuses? What if Luna was actually a spoiled, arrogant, and attention-whoring brat?

Overall, the show wasted Princess Luna, and I doubt the writers even know what they think of her.

[Unity 332]

10 hours ago, Number62 said:

All the speculation is nice, so it's too bad the show never examined Princess Luna more closely.

Who knows what Equestria was like 1000 years ago because for all we know, their sleeping schedule even back then could've been the same.

But there are some questions I must ask. If Luna could dream-walk, did she just reluctantly do that job? Is helping others work through personal problems hardly praiseworthy to her? She could also interact with the respective pony while they dream, so did she just refuse to talk to them whenever she visited them? Or the ponies she helped all happen to hate her or the nighttime.

And according to the season 1 premiere and season 4 premiere, she was jealous about the ponies loving the daytime. Did she know that almost all ponies were diurnal? That sleep is a necessity like OP said? So she was essentially pissed off that other ponies had to follow their biological clocks. It's as stupid as it sounds.

Or fine. There's all this stuff about her feeling unappreciated, which sounds fine on paper. The problem is that this idea (more accurately, Luna's feelings) is never dramatized. I don't know anything about her relationship with the pony citizens or even her sister. Sure there's jealousy and resentment, but what about them? Were those feelings present even before the Nightmare Moon bullshit? Did Princess Celestia notice those feelings or not? Most would say that Celestia didn't notice, but what if she tried repeatedly with Luna resorting to a bunch of excuses? What if Luna was actually a spoiled, arrogant, and attention-whoring brat?

Overall, the show wasted Princess Luna, and I doubt the writers even know what they think of her.

 I agree, there's only one way to find out though.

But, It could have been the darkness slowly consuming her. 

It was said that the darkness feeds off your insecurities and then makes you feel only welcomed by the darkness. 

I am just grasping onto any idea that might make sense here.

I feel like the only other explanation was Luna was either too Arrogant, or too young to know what to do, but we dont know exact age numbers here. If she could dream walk or whatever she could clearly see how thankful the ponies that she helped were.

[Thrond 3,263]

Luna's backstory is maybe the least consistent part of the show, and every new element added has only made it more confusing, but the one thing that's remained consistent is the idea that Nightmare Moon was a bad decision. Nearly every story in the franchise dealing with Nightmare Moon suggests that Luna made a mistake, that she chose the worst option because she let her irrational negative feelings overcome her. So in that sense, yeah, it was unnecessary. 

As for the actual fact of pony sleep patterns, well, that's never been explained to us, and what little we can gather from Luna's story is that ancient Equestria was much like the present day of Equestria, only minus any sort of nightlife. What really makes this confusing is Luna's dream walking - if she could do that, then why didn't ponies appreciate her night? Did all of their good dreams take place during the day? It's just never been explained to us very clearly, and every new piece of information makes it more confusing. 

[Number62 1,258]

On 8/30/2018 at 10:50 AM, Unity said:

 I agree, there's only one way to find out though.

But, It could have been the darkness slowly consuming her. 

It was said that the darkness feeds off your insecurities and then makes you feel only welcomed by the darkness. 

Lauren Faust may have mentioned a "darkness" that ate away at Luna, but the show itself hasn't suggested anything like that. I'm not saying that her words are worthless, but a viewer shouldn't only rely on her words for information like this. I'm aware of the comics existing, but I doubt the people working on the show care about the comics.

So, you're right. There's only one way to find out, which is the show giving the answers. However, I see two problems. One is that the show isn't all that interested in Luna, and this can be seen with her sparse appearances. The second is that the show would more than likely screw up if they did try. See Luna's season 5 episode for a massive failure that had no reason to happen.

On 8/30/2018 at 10:50 AM, Unity said:

I am just grasping onto any idea that might make sense here.

I feel like the only other explanation was Luna was either too Arrogant, or too young to know what to do, but we dont know exact age numbers here. If she could dream walk or whatever she could clearly see how thankful the ponies that she helped were.

And I'm not against grasping at ideas.

A ton of things could've happened. She could've been a nice pony but felt unappreciated (most common fan theory). She could've been an ass hole even before becoming Nightmare Moon and hated any kind of attention her sister got. Maybe she held some amount of resentment toward Celestia but was able to set that aside, and the resentment exploded after they became royals. Luna could've always been a talented and useful pony but ignored her own strengths because she was critical of herself, had a huge ego, or just wanted to always be better than Celestia. And there are a million other possibilities that I'm too lazy to think of.

That's why the show should've clarified itself. More's the pity that the show hasn't put any effort.

But to answer the thread title as I haven't actually done that, a lot of "bad things" could be avoided. But fiction in general requires those kinds of things to happen so there'd be a story to tell or there would be something to say about a character. So yeah, Luna could've avoided that incident. But if it made sense for the incident to happen, that's fine, too.

On 8/30/2018 at 1:19 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

Luna's backstory is maybe the least consistent part of the show, and every new element added has only made it more confusing, but the one thing that's remained consistent is the idea that Nightmare Moon was a bad decision. Nearly every story in the franchise dealing with Nightmare Moon suggests that Luna made a mistake, that she chose the worst option because she let her irrational negative feelings overcome her. So in that sense, yeah, it was unnecessary. 

As for the actual fact of pony sleep patterns, well, that's never been explained to us, and what little we can gather from Luna's story is that ancient Equestria was much like the present day of Equestria, only minus any sort of nightlife. What really makes this confusing is Luna's dream walking - if she could do that, then why didn't ponies appreciate her night? Did all of their good dreams take place during the day? It's just never been explained to us very clearly, and every new piece of information makes it more confusing. 

What new elements? I don't remember any being added throughout the show unless you're referring to the comics. I will say that the show doesn't know what to think of the Nightmare Moon business as the season 1 premiere, season 4 premiere, and Luna's season 2 and 5 episodes have shown.

And I agree that Luna's dream-walking muddies the issue. My guess is that she only happened to encounter ponies that were ungrateful toward her. It's sounds like bullshit, but making up bullshit is nothing new to the show.

[Unity 332]

50 minutes ago, Number62 said:

 

 

Not quoting everything you said but it still applies.

Yes, I  agree.

But there is one way i am referring to to find out myself, but you will have to follow the things i do to understand it.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Unity

[Thrond 3,263]

2 hours ago, Number62 said:

What new elements? I don't remember any being added throughout the show unless you're referring to the comics.

I am referring to the comics, but also to the dream walking, and the flashback in season 4.

[Number62 1,258]

On 8/31/2018 at 6:35 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

I am referring to the comics, but also to the dream walking, and the flashback in season 4.

That's why she may as well not have a backstory. Not helping is that the backstory does nothing for Luna.

[Splashee 28,566]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:48 PM, Unity said:

So, Luna turned into Nightmare Moon (NMM) because she thought everyone slept through her night

They are supposed to sleep during the night, lol.

Luna was jealous of her sister. But she learned her lession, and gave us Episode 1 and 2!

[ExplosionMare 18,079]

The thing is, she didn’t bother to think. She just let one thought take control of all the others.

[Splashee 28,566]

1 hour ago, Scar said:

Some times you can't help your emotions.

Absolutely true. Though, I still have to point out, being a princess require more than stealing pearls and being banished to the moon 🌝

2 minutes ago, ExplosionMare said:

The thing is, she didn’t bother to think. She just let one thought take control of all the others.

Still, why do we let princesses do mistakes like this? We cannot have leaders and gods that make simple mistakes

[ExplosionMare 18,079]

9 minutes ago, Splashee® said:

Absolutely true. Though, I still have to point out, being a princess require more than stealing pearls and being banished to the moon 🌝

Still, why do we let princesses do mistakes like this? We cannot have leaders and gods that make simple mistakes

Because any pony with a wings and a horn is entitled to rule something apparently

[Splashee 28,566]

Just now, ExplosionMare said:

Because any pony with a wings and a horn is entitled to rule something apparently

Queen Chrysalis... Oh wait, she did rule. Princess Cad.... I got nothing

[Tom Gallagher 33,593]

But the Mane Six wouldn’t have met! 

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

Nightmare Moon made a lot of sense when the cartoon started, even if it ignored things like professionals that would necessarily work during the night. Luna was frustrated that the ponies would enjoy Celestia's day and not her night. There is some space for interpretation saying that she wanted ponies to admire her night, not simply work on it, but this is most likely a slip from the writers, and a good catch.

Where did this notion that she is responsible for nocturnal animals come from, though? I'm pretty sure Celestia isn't responsible for diurnal ones.