Regarding Nightmare Moon as a threat

[heavens-champion 1,893]

Is it just me, or has Nightmare Moon become harmless? We all know that in real life, eternal night would cause the planet to freeze, but in her future in the Cutie Re-Mark, her future doesn't seem all that icy... of course, it could have just been the Everfree Forest and the Castle that were unaffected. Then again, Josh Haber was probably being lazy (or in a rush). I can forgive Daybreaker overpowering her in A Royal Problem, since the sun is brighter than the moon. But I'm rambling. Other than almost killing the Mane 6 in the series premiere, do you think that Nightmare Moon has become harmless?

[Spartan 433]

I wouldnt say harmless. But she is still a threat, assuming Luna allows her (Nightmare Moon) to unleash her full power. Now, we all know the strongest being currently on the show is Daybreaker. Unless Ive missed someone.

 

My reason for saying Daybreaker is the strongest is, she easily overpowered Nightmare Moon. I got off topic, sorry, but Nightmare Moon is harmless because Luna has ALOT more control now

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

The power of Harmony might be too strong to the point that it can make villains like Nightmare Moon or Chrysalis their practice targets but they are far from harmless. Any villain in this show can be devastating if they can use their abilities to their full potential and take their enemies more seriously. Her future isnt that bad because deep down she isnt totally evil, so she will protect her people (maybe she could cast a spell so her people will survive). If we dont count the overpowered rainbow nuke, Nightmare Moon still can make ponies scare shitless. 

[heavens-champion 1,893]

11 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I wouldnt say harmless. But she is still a threat, assuming Luna allows her (Nightmare Moon) to unleash her full power. Now, we all know the strongest being currently on the show is Daybreaker. Unless Ive missed someone.

 

My reason for saying Daybreaker is the strongest is, she easily overpowered Nightmare Moon. I got off topic, sorry, but Nightmare Moon is harmless because Luna has ALOT more control now

Yes, I know. I said that Daybreaker overpowered Nightmare Moon.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,152]

7 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I wouldnt say harmless. But she is still a threat, assuming Luna allows her (Nightmare Moon) to unleash her full power. Now, we all know the strongest being currently on the show is Daybreaker. Unless Ive missed someone.

 

My reason for saying Daybreaker is the strongest is, she easily overpowered Nightmare Moon. I got off topic, sorry, but Nightmare Moon is harmless because Luna has ALOT more control now

The problem with assuming Daybreaker as the strongest is that we've only seen her in Starlight Glimmer's nightmare; nothing more. That said I can see Daybreaker being the strongest, but we have nothing to go off of other than Celestia herself being more powerful than Luna; supposedly.

That said; while it's true to an extent that the threat of Nightmare Moon feels a tad diminished, it still holds some power. One interesting thing I found was that dring her bit in Cutie Re-Mark, he kingdom seemed at peace. There was no changeling invasion or even a war with Sombra; just peace; albeit the peace of the gun. It's an interesting thought.

[Hardway Bet 96]

41 minutes ago, PathfinderCS said:

There was no changeling invasion or even a war with Sombra; just peace; albeit the peace of the gun. It's an interesting thought.

Well, they were traveling in time, so maybe they just showed up before any of that. I dunno.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

1 hour ago, PathfinderCS said:

There was no changeling invasion or even a war with Sombra; just peace; albeit the peace of the gun. It's an interesting thought.

Honestly, I think the reason Nightmare Moons timeline was so peaceful were less because of anything Nightmare Moons did, and more because the writers wanted to show what Equestria would look like under her rule. 

After all, all the different timeline we were showed in that episode only focused on one of the villains. 

[Kadeda 178]

The villains are very powerful compared to regular citizens. It's just Twilight can be just as broken especially with the elements.

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

Daybreaker only overpowered NMM once -- and even then, NMM soon recovered for more (complete with an equal-looking beam struggle) before Celestia ultimately shut everything down.

[SharpWit 2,472]

I think the true fear of Starlight's dream has been overlooked. If Nightmare Moon returns, at least there's a chance to defeat her. But then Day Breaker shows up and seems to be the more powerful of the two. I disagree with this sentiment. Rather they are on Equal footing. The fear expressed is that should both the royal sisters turn evil, then there's nothing that could be done to stop them. It's inevitable that they should fight and one come out on top victorious, but their first priority isn't necessarily to defeat the other but to destroy anything and everything that could lead to their demise. Inadvertently they'd be working together towards the same goal until they were the only ones left with a means to unseat the other's hold on power.

Nightmare Moon is very much still a threat because in her world she is the only threat. While she reigns there is nothing to oppose her because she does away with everything before it has the chance to rival her and ruthlessly stomps out any sort of rebellion. Discord, Chrysalis, Sombra, Tirek, and everything else in between aren't present because they're no longer there. Nightmare Moon is the farthest thing from harmless to those who get in her way.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

37 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

Nightmare Moon is very much still a threat because in her world she is the only threat.

But is that a result of the actions of Nightmare Moon, or shitty writing? 

IMO, the argument that Nightmare Moons is a threat because she was able to defeat the other villains fall apart the second you remember that all the different timeline we saw in that episode only included one villain. Like, unless you wanna argue that Flim and Flam were somehow able to defeat Tirek, you shouldn't take that episode at face value.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Sun Wukong

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

7 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Like, unless you wanna argue that Flim and Flam were somehow able to defeat Tirek somehow, you shouldn't take that episode at face value.

Most likely -- they just waited until he was no longer a factor, then picked their spot.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

Just now, A.V. said:

Most likely -- they just waited until he was no longer a factor, then picked their spot.

Let's say I buy that explination, but what about the war with Sombra? Or Chrysalis? Or Nightmare Moon? Or Discord?

Did all of them suddenly grow bored and walked away, letting Flim and Flam walk in and take over? 

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

Just now, Sun Wukong said:

Let's say I buy that explination, but what about the war with Sombra? Or Chrysalis? Or Nightmare Moon? Or Discord?

Did all of them suddenly grow bored and walked away, letting Flim and Flam walk in and take over? 

...Let me get back to you on that...

 

[SharpWit 2,472]

4 hours ago, Sun Wukong said:

But is that a result of the actions of Nightmare Moon, or shitty writing? 

IMO, the argument that Nightmare Moons is a threat because she was able to defeat the other villains fall apart the second you remember that all the different timeline we saw in that episode only included one villains. Like, unless you wanna argue that Flim and Flam were somehow able to defeat Tirek, you shouldn't take that episode at face value.

Silver Quill put it best.

 

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

3 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

Silver Quill put it best.

 

Yeah, can you just summarize his point for me? I'm too lazy to watch the entire video.

[Goat-kun 2,498]

My filter merchant sense in tingling!

 

 

It could be said then that, when one allows there to be a chance of solid canon, Starlight never used temporal magic. It was all a team dream simulated by Harmony. It was responsible for luring Starlight into the Castle, the very center of its quite formidable psionic power where it was able to convert her within a harmless dream full of illogical holes that three inexperienced dreamers would undoubtedly take as solid truth. There were no timelines, no battle, just Harmony conditioning another hapless slave.

 

P.S: NMM was never a threat to begin with.

[SharpWit 2,472]

2 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Yeah, can you just summarize his point for me? I'm too lazy to watch the entire video.

"But looking at Chrysalis's kingdom and the alternate future where she's conquered Equestria, it's easy to see why the surviving ponies resist. Afterall, the alternative is to become changeling food or perhaps death. But what about a world ruled by Nightmare Moon? A world where there is no resistance. It's difficult to make a lot of assertions since we only see this place for a few minutes, and it's limited to just the castle. But we can infer a lot from knowledge of both the set up and Nightmare Moon's archetype. First and foremost, I think it's safe to assume there is no resistance in this world. Not because there isn't a rebellion taking place in the throne room, but because of what came before. As Twilight said, "Because every present I come to is worse than the last!" And we went from a war torn world in a deadlock to a world where ponies lost and a resistance is in its final days. So it's a safe bet that Nightmare Moon's rule is absolute."

"In fact, a lot of the doom that people assume comes with eternal night, hasn't happened."

"Nightmare moon is a much more aggressive ruler. The kind who wouldn't tolerate any threat or allow one to develop unchecked. As a result, a lot of the threats that grew to endanger Celestia's rule would likely be stamped out. Discords statue would be shattered, and the dust scattered to the wind. The inmates of Tartarus might get lose, so better to just take them out while they're weakened. A being that jealously guards their throne would likely demand higher security. And even if a changeling could sneak in, how much of a chance would it stand? The main point seems to be that an absence of freedom creates a realm where one needn't fear outside threats. I'd even wager that uprisings like Starlight's cult would be dealt with swiftly and harsh."

"What makes you assume that Nightmare Moon's residents are safe? Remember, this whole set up is based on Nightmare Moon feeling satisfied with the ponies' affection. There wellbeing is an after thought, and collateral damage would be dismissed. Nightmare Moon does what's right for Nightmare Moon, and it's very easy for that to turn to harm towards the ponies who haven't done anything wrong."

"There's also the question of what happens when a power superior to Nightmare Moon's appears. There are any number of unknown threats in the world, and sooner or later time or complacency will undermine her. Then who is going to step in and prevent another power's oppression?"

"Nightmare Moon's world would begin with her, and end with her, for there is no hope."

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

2 hours ago, SharpWit said:

<snip>

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what any of that has to do with what I said.

Edit: Also, my point still stands. Regardless of how much you read into Nightmare Moons timeline, it shouldn't be taken as proof that Nightmare Moon can deal with threats like Discord, Tirek, etc. As I pointed out previously, even in the Flim and Flam timeline, none of the other villains were around so either the writers wanted to show what the world would look like if [Insert villain here]  had won and simply didn't care about how little sense it made that none of the other villains were around, or Flim and Flam were able to deal with the likes of Discord or Tirek. I know which of those scenarios sounds more likely to me. 

This is also helped by the fact that Luna appears in the Discord timeline, which shows that Celestia was able to defeat her even without the elements of harmony.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by Sun Wukong

[SharpWit 2,472]

2 hours ago, Sun Wukong said:

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what any of that has to do with what I said.

Edit: Also, my point still stands. Regardless of how much you read into Nightmare Moons timeline, it shouldn't be taken as proof that Nightmare Moon can deal with threats like Discord, Tirek, etc. As I pointed out previously, even in the Flim and Flam timeline, none of the other villains were around so either the writers wanted to show what the world would look like if [Insert villain here]  had won and simply didn't care about how little sense it made that none of the other villains were around, or Flim and Flam were able to deal with the likes of Discord or Tirek. I know which of those scenarios sounds more likely to me. 

This is also helped by the fact that Luna appears in the Discord timeline, which shows that Celestia was able to defeat her even without the elements of harmony.  

It had to do with what you said because it was my explanation of the how and why she's the only threat. You can say it's shitty righting since this is all just technically speculation on our part but by completely disregarding that you close down the discussion, and leave it as Nightmare Moon being plopped into a world designed where she rules, which may just be what the writers did but there's no fun in leaving it as that. If we analyze what we see and infer what likely would have happened then at least we get a plausible answer.

I know the whole time travel thing and reasoning for every alternate world is a mess, but that's not the discussion we're having here. This is strictly about Nightmare Moon and what sort of threat she poses.

[HarmonySparkle 27]

3 hours ago, Sun Wukong said:

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what any of that has to do with what I said.

Edit: Also, my point still stands. Regardless of how much you read into Nightmare Moons timeline, it shouldn't be taken as proof that Nightmare Moon can deal with threats like Discord, Tirek, etc. As I pointed out previously, even in the Flim and Flam timeline, none of the other villains were around so either the writers wanted to show what the world would look like if [Insert villain here]  had won and simply didn't care about how little sense it made that none of the other villains were around, or Flim and Flam were able to deal with the likes of Discord or Tirek. I know which of those scenarios sounds more likely to me. 

This is also helped by the fact that Luna appears in the Discord timeline, which shows that Celestia was able to defeat her even without the elements of harmony.  

Let's not forget, that in the past each time the Sonic Rainboom, was halted, it happened in a different way. Small changes in the past, can have huge impacts in the future. I can't go into much detail in a simple reply message, so I'd suggest you take a look at this video, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SfLM4gLikg0

Spoiler

P.S. If you're, "too lazy to watch it," then learn the art of self motivation.

 

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

13 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

and leave it as Nightmare Moon being plopped into a world designed where she rules, which may just be what the writers did but there's no fun in leaving it as that. 

I get that it's not very fun, but not everything is. 

13 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

If we analyze what we see and infer what likely would have happened then at least we get a plausible answer.

1

Cool, let's  analyze what we see then. Isn't it fairly likely that the other villains simply never appared in Nightmare Moons reality? 

Like, it's an alternate timeline so multiple events could differ from the normal timeline. This could mean that the CMC never met,  and therefore couldn't fight in front of Discord Statue, thus not triggering the event that de-petrified Discord. As for Chrysalis, the changelings were mainly after a food source and maybe Equestria wasn't just as filled with love under Nightmare Moon as it was in the normal timeline. This in turn could mean that the changelings simply didn't think that Equestria would be worth taking over.  As for Sombra, maybe Cadance were able to find the Crystal heart in time or something.  Tirek could have slipped on a rock and broken his neck. 

In short, there are other reasons other than Nightmare Moon as for why her rule was so peaceful. 

Just now, SharpWit said:

but that's not the discussion we're having here

I disagree, the whole scenario is flawed to such an extent that you can't ignore it. The idea that the alternate timeline in question gives any form of insight into how rule under Nightmare Moon would have been just doesn't work when you consider the giant plotholes in the story.  My point is that we shouldn't take Nightmare Moon's timeline at face value, especially not anything revolving around other villains. 

3 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

This is strictly about Nightmare Moon and what sort of threat she poses.

If we shouldn't talk about the alternate timeline in Nightmare Moon won, stop using it as evidence of how much of a threat she is. 

3 minutes ago, HarmonySparkle said:

I can't go into much detail in a simple reply message, so I'd suggest you take a look at this video, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SfLM4gLikg0

As fun as arguing about a cartoon show is, I'm not gonna waste 18 minuets of my life to do so. 

[HarmonySparkle 27]

18 hours ago, heavens-champion said:

Is it just me, or has Nightmare Moon become harmless? We all know that in real life, eternal night would cause the planet to freeze, but in her future in the Cutie Re-Mark, her future doesn't seem all that icy... of course, it could have just been the Everfree Forest and the Castle that were unaffected. Then again, Josh Haber was probably being lazy (or in a rush). I can forgive Daybreaker overpowering her in A Royal Problem, since the sun is brighter than the moon. But I'm rambling. Other than almost killing the Mane 6 in the series premiere, do you think that Nightmare Moon has become harmless?

In the video I linked in a my previous reply, Nightmare Moon's future is painted in a much darker picture, to summarize, the ponies in Nightmare Moon's castle, are the only ponies, still alive in all of Equestria. And given how emotional Luna can get, she could always relapse, one day.

[Misty Shadow 7,084]

I don't think Nightmare Moon was supposed to be regarded as a threat after she was defeated. Both Luna Eclipsed and Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep? showed that Luna has overcome her inner conflict of mental insecurity regarding Nightmare Moon, so the odds of her returning, at least through Luna, are very unlikely. And of course, there's also the issue of how powerful the show's cast is now compared to back at the beginning of the series. I'm not even going to get into the whole thing with Daybreaker, there's plenty of ways to fight NM in the actual world of MLP now, like Discord. 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by CloudMistDragon

[HarmonySparkle 27]

15 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

I get that it's not very fun, but not everything is. 

Cool, let's  analyze what we see then. Isn't it fairly likely that the other villains simply never appared in Nightmare Moons reality? 

Like, it's an alternate timeline so multiple events could differ from the normal timeline. This could mean that the CMC never met,  and therefore couldn't fight in front of Discord Statue, thus not triggering the event that de-petrified Discord. As for Chrysalis, the changelings were mainly after a food source and maybe Equestria wasn't just as filled with love under Nightmare Moon as it was in the normal timeline. This in turn could mean that the changelings simply didn't think that Equestria would be worth taking over.  As for Sombra, maybe Cadance were able to find the Crystal heart in time or something.  Tirek could have slipped on a rock and broken his neck. 

In short, there are other reasons other than Nightmare Moon as for why her rule was so peaceful. 

I disagree, the whole scenario is flawed to such an extent that you can't ignore it. The idea that the alternate timeline in question gives any form of insight into how rule under Nightmare Moon would have been just doesn't work when you consider the giant plotholes in the story.  My point is that we shouldn't take Nightmare Moon's timeline at face value, especially not anything revolving around other villains. 

If we shouldn't talk about the alternate timeline in Nightmare Moon won, stop using it as evidence of how much of a threat she is. 

As fun as arguing about a cartoon show is, I'm not gonna waste 18 minuets of my life to do so. 

You seem to be missing his point. Regardless of fun factor, the way you're trying to discuss this, leaves no more room, open for discussion.

P.S. It wouldn't be a waste of time, hearing other people's perspectives, and considering other possible scenarios can be very healthy for the mind, and if you don't want to take less time out of your life to watch something, that's shorter than an actual MLP episode, you're the one who is missing out.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by HarmonySparkle