To Reform, or not to Reform?

[FlareGun45 2,221]

So I've been thinking about reformed villains lately. Now I understand alota the fandom don't like it when that happens, and I too understand why reformations are important in this show. However, the real problem isn't reformations in general, but the main problem is: not all the reformations make sense.

Diamond Tiara - she's young and naive, and taught to be a snobby bully who bullies anypony inferior to her because of her mom. Yes, Crusaders of the Lost Mark was a bit rushed and we don't see Diamond Tiara anymore which sucks, but her reformation, in my opinion, made perfect sense!

Chancellor Neighsay, his reformation is my personal favorite because he had the wrong idea about creatures, but that's understandable because Equestria has been attacked by creatures multiple times, until the Mane 8 have all done their parts to bring peace between ponies and other creatures! It was until a pony (a filly for that matter) who caused so much trouble that Neighsay was too stubborn to see, and it was the Student Six, non-ponies, who saved him, and that's what changed his point of view! That there is most realistic reformation I've ever seen on this show!

Now we got reformations that don't make sense enough or even at all - the worst being Vignette Valencia from Rollercoaster of Friendship! She was just a jerk and took advantage of the magic that was given to her, absolutely no redeeming factors about her. But then she was just defeated by the Humane 7's rainbow blast, and then all the sudden, she's reformed. How does that make any sense at all? Some redemptions feel natural, like Discord, and some just come outta nowhere like Sunset Shimmer in the first EG. That there is "forced redemption" - and life ain't like that.

Redemptions need to feel understandable for them to work. Some villains are redeemable, but there are some that aren't - some are meant to stay as villains as they should be. However, there are ways to not redeem a villain but give them a happy (or happyish) ending, and the Dazzlings on Sunset's Backstage Pass is the best example! Remember this when you're writing your own stuff!

So what's your opinion on reformations and how do you think they should work?

[Megas 28,114]

I dunno what's worse, the fact that they've been redeeming so many villains, or the fact that, especially recently, they've been making character redemptions no one fucking asked for like Vingette, Garble and

S9 Episode 21 spoiler

Spoiler

Ahuizotl and Caballeron

It's like the show is becoming a bad parody of itself. Say what you want about Lightning Dust, at least most people would actually want to see her reform

Edited August 17, 2019 by Kiryu-Chan

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

@Kiryu-Chan

Spoiler

Please tell me you’re joking or guessing about Ahuizotl and Caballeron.

 

MLP is not a super hero adventure show, it’s a slice of life show. In my opinion, the best reason they should reform a villain is because they want to use them in a slice of life setting. Unfortunately, the vast majority of reformations feel empty because nothing is done with those characters, especially in EQG.

[KH7672 1,604]

I'm probably not going to say much that was hasn't already been said but I want to comment on the content of this thread. You talk about reforming but then you jump into redeeming. These are not interchangeable terms. Reformation itself is when a character changes their ways, has a change of heart, sees the light etc. Redemption is a lot more complex as it can be when the character feels comfortable with their change and moves on from their mistakes, when other characters feel comfortable, when the world accepts the character despite their misdeeds, and is much more in depth of a process and differs for every character on either end. Really it's reformation is individual and redemption is societal.

The biggest mistake I see on this from is this quote:

2 hours ago, FlareGun45 said:

Some redemptions feel natural, like Discord, and some just come outta nowhere like Sunset Shimmer in the first EG. That there is "forced redemption" - and life ain't like that.

Sunset didn't have a forced redemption, she had a forced reformation as nothing in the movie indicated why she would be willing to make a heel-turn. The redemption came in Rainbow Rocks and was not forced at all.

Hope this helps to keep the topic on point or expand on what you're trying to reiterate here.

[Misty Shadow 8,200]

Villain redemption doesn't really bother me like it did in the past. It happens all the time in anime/manga/arc style shows, one of the things many would like to see MLP be more like. I think the reason that reformation is happening even to "villains" that no one really cared about is because it's the easiest way to give the arcs of those "villains" a satisfying conclusion. On the surface, it may seem pointless. However, when you think about the alternative, it's better writing than just forgetting about them. 

[JH24 385]

I agree that in some cases the change of a character could have used more work and build-up. (Like Garble, which although I wouldn't have mind if done well, just felt awkward the way they handled it)

What frustrates me is that some characters we don't particularly care about get reformed, but a character like Lightning Dust isn't. If anything she does have the personality and development as a character that would fit for a reformation.

Edited August 17, 2019 by JH24

[Rushing cash 845]

2 hours ago, JH24 said:

character like Lightning Dust isn't.

There are some characters(and people irl) who can't redeem themselves because they don't understand whats wrong with their behavior. LD isn't a villain, she doesn't want to hurt others because she enjoys it, it happens either accidentally(WB academy) or by trying to push someone to far(The washouts), and she doesn't understand that by doing this\so she is hurting them. If she will hurt someone she cares about or herself she might understand it but so far it did not happen. 

[Goat-kun 2,531]

There is no collective forgiveness. Redemption is in the eye of the beholder, or should I say in the eye of a character since some fanboy might mistake such statement for leniency towards their misguided reasoning. That's why your fancy reformations don't work. All of these things are a process. Our glorious writers made them into a "Thanos snap".

 

Some have decided to religiously ignore the perilous subject of anime since it denies the very existence of those who hate reforms. It is not the redemption stories that people dislike. It is FIM redemption stories specifically. It's been four years. Get a clue.

 

P.S: Villains are heroes of their own stories. Food for thought.

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,606]

Everyone has the capacity to change, look inward, and be better. However, not everyone ACTS on that capacity.

To @Kiryu-Chan :

The series is titled "Friendship is Magic". The main tenant of the show is that not everyone is truly gone or beyond saving. You can say that the execution is questionable, but it's not like it's a betrayal of the show's central message.

Edited August 17, 2019 by TheAnimationFanatic

[cmarston1 5,964]

7 minutes ago, TheAnimationFanatic said:

Everyone has the capacity to change, look inward, and be better. However, not everyone ACTS on that capacity.

To @Kiryu-Chan :

The series is titled "Friendship is Magic". The main tenant of the show is that not everyone is truly gone or beyond saving. You can say that the execution is questionable, but it's not like it's a betrayal of the show's central message.

While the series is titled "Friendship is Magic" and reforming villains isn't a betrayal of the show's central message,  I also believe that the show is not all that good at it.  When it comes to all the major villains like Discord and Starlight Glimmer who get reformed it always comes across as being rushed.  This is due to the show being mostly episodic and not serialized enough to deal with episodes long arcs that would be necessary to make it stick.  They mostly get snap shot reformations which can be quite detrimental to getting the audience to care fo the character especially in the case of Starlight Glimmer.  It is usually the more minor antagonists like Gilda and Diamond Tiara who get the best reformations given that they were just everyday jerks and as a result didn't really need a lot of time to spend on a reformation arc.  However those are few and far between.  Not only that but the other main issue with how many reformations we get in the show is that at some point it gets stale.  Like what's the point of caring about how the characters are going to face off a villain if they are just going to reform them anyways?  It takes away from the villains and overall becomes stale and predictable.

[Xe__or 4,378]

5 minutes ago, cmarston1 said:

While the series is titled "Friendship is Magic" and reforming villains isn't a betrayal of the show's central message,  I also believe that the show is not all that good at it.  When it comes to all the major villains like Discord and Starlight Glimmer who get reformed it always comes across as being rushed.  This is due to the show being mostly episodic and not serialized enough to deal with episodes long arcs that would be necessary to make it stick.  They mostly get snap shot reformations which can be quite detrimental to getting the audience to care fo the character especially in the case of Starlight Glimmer.  It is usually the more minor antagonists like Gilda and Diamond Tiara who get the best reformations given that they were just everyday jerks and as a result didn't really need a lot of time to spend on a reformation arc.  However those are few and far between.  Not only that but the other main issue with how many reformations we get in the show is that at some point it gets stale.  Like what's the point of caring about how the characters are going to face off a villain if they are just going to reform them anyways?  It takes away from the villains and overall becomes stale and predictable.

This is basically what I think about the subject; the episodic format makes it so major villains' reformations are kinda rushed. 

But I wanna add that I don't think every villain should be reformed; ookay, the show's name is "Friendship is Magic", but you can't be friends with everyone in the first place.

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,606]

4 minutes ago, cmarston1 said:

While the series is titled "Friendship is Magic" and reforming villains isn't a betrayal of the show's central message,  I also believe that the show is not all that good at it.  When it comes to all the major villains like Discord and Starlight Glimmer who get reformed it always comes across as being rushed.  This is due to the show being mostly episodic and not serialized enough to deal with episodes long arcs that would be necessary to make it stick.  They mostly get snap shot reformations which can be quite detrimental to getting the audience to care fo the character especially in the case of Starlight Glimmer.  It is usually the more minor antagonists like Gilda and Diamond Tiara who get the best reformations given that they were just everyday jerks and as a result didn't really need a lot of time to spend on a reformation arc.  However those are few and far between.  Not only that but the other main issue with how many reformations we get in the show is that at some point it gets stale.  Like what's the point of caring about how the characters are going to face off a villain if they are just going to reform them anyways?  It takes away from the villains and overall becomes stale and predictable.

Not really bothered by the lack of followup for Diamond Tiara since she served her purpose as an obstacle for the Crusaders and a metaphorical roadblock for their paths to growing up.  

2 minutes ago, Xeltor said:

But I wanna add that I don't think every villain should be reformed; ookay, the show's name is "Friendship is Magic", but you can't be friends with everyone in the first place.

Which is why I added the caveat of not everybody acting on the capacity to change and be good.

[Xe__or 4,378]

1 minute ago, TheAnimationFanatic said:

Which is why I added the caveat of not everybody acting on the capacity to change and be good.

Theorically, that's correct; everyone has the capacity to act and try to be good. But if that means letting monsters loose , to take the risk of trying and change them... 

[Goat-kun 2,531]

26 minutes ago, TheAnimationFanatic said:

Everyone has the capacity to change, look inward, and be better. However, not everyone ACTS on that capacity.

To @Kiryu-Chan :

The series is titled "Friendship is Magic". The main tenant of the show is BUY OUR TOYS!!!

FTFY

 

Obviously, they're not doing a good job and something needs to change. Hence G5. One should start with changing the core philosophy from "muh friendship" to "entertainment". No agenda, no preaching, just storytelling. We need more people to subjectively™ like the show and buy its merchandise.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

35 minutes ago, TheAnimationFanatic said:

Not really bothered by the lack of followup for Diamond Tiara since she served her purpose as an obstacle for the Crusaders and a metaphorical roadblock for their paths to growing up.  

Would have liked to see more Diamond Tiara post-reformation - she has gone to being a background pony, so we don't really get to see if she has actually changed her behaviour, just a montage at the end of the S5 episode (which was then totally upstaged by the CMC getting their cutie marks) and there isn't any reason they couldn't have slipped in a few scenes for her (even non-speaking ones) in one of the later CMC episodes.

[Sepul-Coloratura 764]

Reformation is just another type of a story. And if it's not good, it's because it's not a good story. And many MLP reformation stories tends to be very formulaic, predictable, boring or rushed. That's exactly the same problem with the show introducing new world ending scenarios with interchangeable villains. Reformation stories are twice as hard as other stories. I don't expect them to work as well as other stories, and that's why I get skeptical when I see it coming.

ps. Reformation stories are good and educative, but why most of them has to be mass murderers, tyrants, war criminals and aggressors? What lesson in that?

Edited August 17, 2019 by Sepul-Coloratura

[CypherHoof 26,483]

13 minutes ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Reformation is just another type of a story. And if it's not good, it's because it's not a good story. And many MLP reformation stories tends to be very formulaic, predictable, boring or rushed. That's exactly the same problem with the show introducing new world ending scenarios with interchangeable villains. Reformation stories are twice as hard as other stories. I don't expect them to work as well as other stories, and that's why I get skeptical when I see it coming.

ps. Reformation stories are good and educative, but why most of them has to be mass murderers, tyrants, war criminals and aggressors? What lesson in that?

I liked DT's reformation, and consider it one of the more interesting ones in the show - behaviour that would have actually been to her advantage in Canterlot or Manehattan was not acceptable in Ponyville, and was leaving her increasingly isolated and alone; in one short episode, we see the CMC reach out a lifeline for her, and when faced with either defying her own mother in public, or holding to her self-destructive path, she chose the former (which was brave, but.. yeah. Literally EVERYPONY else, including her own father, had been pushing her to be a better pony, and she was literally trying to buy forgiveness with her father's money, but.... )

It is an interesting lesson for Pony; in many cultures, openly defying parental authority like that is taboo; a child publicly humiliating an adult like that (particularly a parent) unthinkable, yet Pony went there.  It doesn't hurt that we have no other reference for Spoiled Milk (who had never previously appeared in the show) as opposed to Filthy (who, while arrogant, is also shown as knowing how not to alienate his customers and suppliers, and seems genuinely happy with the rural lifestyle); Filthy had been shown previously encouraging DT to take part in the community (and the Apple bunny hopping ritual :D) so is not out of character funding the playground repairs in DT's name.

So it comes down to DT herself; has she genuinely reformed, or has she finally gotten what her father has been showing her for years - that you get more flies with honey than vinegar? And the answer is we don't know. She has been a bit better characterized in the comics (when opposing her father's exploitation of the woodland, for example) but they aren't cannon, and it has been near on four seasons now since we last saw her with a speaking part.

[Megas 28,114]

Honestly, even if it's called "Friendship is Magic" it's still gotta have its limitations, otherwise it's just gonna end up feeling like a "Get out of jail free" pass

[CypherHoof 26,483]

1 hour ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

Honestly, even if it's called "Friendship is Magic" it's still gotta have its limitations, otherwise it's just gonna end up feeling like a "Get out of jail free" pass

Fair enough, although we seem to have Sombra and Chrysalis as examples of those who are determined to be unreformed...