Spike is not a child/baby

[SergioFernandez 33]

I plan on doing a blog (and video) on why Spike was never (or at least since Season 2) a baby dragon/child, as many fans say. With this blog, I just want to see all of your arguments as to why you think he's not a teen/adult, to make sure I'm not letting any details slip. Thank you in advance for reading and commenting.

 

[Tom Gallagher 33,588]

Umm… just saying. He was a baby at some stage.

[Misty Shadow 7,867]

I think you've already changed my mind, lmao. I would've originally argued that Spike was in fact an egg that hatched into a dragon that went through puberty, but then I remembered that in order for him to have gone through puberty in the show's timeline where not much time is implied to have passed across all the seasons, he would've had to have already been a teenager. Also, after the release of Dragon Dropped, Jim Miller directly described Spike as a teenager around 16 years old. I also saw that you only meant he had not been a child since Season 2, and in Season 2, he was hanging out with teenage dragons. I realize in retrospect that it would've made much more sense for Spike to be hanging out with kids his age. 

[SergioFernandez 33]

11 minutes ago, TomDaBombMLP said:

Umm… just saying. He was a baby at some stage.

LOOOL you got me on that. I apologize for not writing well. I mean the form of him when we find him with Twilight from episode 1 removing all the memories where obviously he was a baby/child.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

If age wise.... Twilight was what age when he got spike? 6 or 9?

And now she is....19? So that makes spike 10 or 13?

but if dragon wise.... Greed determines age.... So he has small amount of greed and greed is quite loose and can be mixed with needs and wants urges....

so his age based on dragon might be negative or 5 but has a mind of a 9 year old or something.

[SergioFernandez 33]

13 minutes ago, CloudMistDragon said:

I think you've already changed my mind, lmao. I would've originally argued that Spike was in fact an egg that hatched into a dragon that went through puberty, but then I remembered that in order for him to have gone through puberty in the show's timeline where not much time is implied to have passed across all the seasons, he would've had to have already been a teenager. Also, after the release of Dragon Dropped, Jim Miller directly described Spike as a teenager around 16 years old. I also saw that you only meant he had not been a child since Season 2, and in Season 2, he was hanging out with teenage dragons. I realize in retrospect that it would've made much more sense for Spike to be hanging out with kids his age. 

Yes, only in the first season do we see him talking to other children (Snips and Sneals). After that, like you say, interact with teens/adults like Big Mac, Discord, Starlight, Torax, Ember, etc. He was also very independent, he didn't need Twilight or other adults to take care of him like the CMCs.

[SergioFernandez 33]

2 minutes ago, Kujamih said:

If age wise.... Twilight was what age when he got spike? 6 or 9?

And now she is....19? So that makes spike 10 or 13?

but if dragon wise.... Greed determines age.... So he has small amount of greed and greed is quite loose and can be mixed with needs and wants urges....

so his age based on dragon might be negative or 5 but has a mind of a 9 year old or something.

1. Growing over time, following the natural order is not the same as growing out of greed, it is totally different. Smolder says that in 03:32.
2. We agree that in real years it is the same age as the CMC. But I do not agree that it has maturity of 9 years. Several times throughout the series he was the voice of reason (especially with Twilight) and we also see that he doesn't need an adult like the CMC to stay alone or go to other places (in fact they can't even get out of ponyville alone in the last season). Either Twilight doesn't care about him or she knows he's mature enough to handle himself.

 

 

 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

 

...yes and your point? That's why I separated time age and greed age formula .....

And spike can change his age. I believe dragons are in the category of immortals like the phoenix or alicorn, unless they get eaten by a Rok.

I think if you put spike in a helpless state or a trauma he might revert back into an egg... Or worse go back to none existence.

Hence maybe the reason why he doesn't age as fast as the others since he has less greed and treated like a child, loved and cared for.

Unlike the rest of the dragons, who are out in the wild facing the harsh world.

So in a way no matter how old you are if you are treated by everyone as a child... You are a child. But luckily at the end of season 9 we know he's grown up as a demihuman dragon form... Maybe pride or friendship made him grow instead of greed.

I guess spike is more of a Digimon.... Depending on how you treat him that's how he Digivolves hahaha.

[Sparklefan1234 170,611]

Season 1, Episode 2

 

Spike: Uh... We gotta stop Nightmare!...

Twilight Sparkle: You've been up all night, Spike. You are a baby dragon after all. 

[Tom Gallagher 33,588]

2 hours ago, Sparklefan1234 said:

Season 1, Episode 2

 

Spike: Uh... We gotta stop Nightmare!...

Twilight Sparkle: You've been up all night, Spike. You are a baby dragon after all. 

Plus the whole conversation with Fluttershy where she's amazed to see 'A baby dragon.' 

[ExplosionMare 18,062]

He was definitely a child in the way he acted, that’s for sure. He had a list he made once that included “smell my dirty feet”. He was only called a baby because of his size.

[DubWolf 17,263]

Baby like the way siblings call their much younger siblings “baby brother/sister”, but certainly not a baby  .

I mean we’d be asking who changed his diapers  . For a dragon he’s certainly “baby” but not quite either.

[Fluttershutter 2,455]

Dragons apparently live longer than ponies and mature more slowly so they're considered "babies" for a longer time like Grogu. He was fifty years old and considered a young child anyway.

In the show Spike is young and in the final episode I'd say he's the equivalent of a teenage dragon. His voice sound kind of like it's just changing. I guess that's partly because the actress can't do a deep masculine voice but he really just seemed somewhat awkward and teenaged there. He's just very mature for his age.

[AlbaTross 1,586]

I think the term "baby" was used to distinguish him from a mature dragon.  Given that he still had a child voice throughout the series and seemed to have some child-like personality traits, he probably wasn't all that old.  However, given that he went through two separate examples of what is presumably dragon puberty, one in the second season, one in the penultimate, I would probably consider him to be a pre-teen for the bulk of the series, maybe 13 tops later on, excluding the post-time skip scene at the end of the last episode.  

[Steve Piranha 29,424]

Very interesting there are theories that dragon growth is separated via natural ways and greed, considering it was outright stated when Spike got his wings. Anyway, I’m sure the denomination of “baby dragon”, is more out of tradition due to his past generation incarnations rather than actually being a baby, as well evidenced by his level of maturity from the get go. No need for wing-sprouting puberty to notice 

[SergioFernandez 33]

On 2022-04-27 at 9:55 PM, Kujamih said:

...yes and your point? That's why I separated time age and greed age formula .....

And spike can change his age. I believe dragons are in the category of immortals like the phoenix or alicorn, unless they get eaten by a Rok.

I think if you put spike in a helpless state or a trauma he might revert back into an egg... Or worse go back to none existence.

Hence maybe the reason why he doesn't age as fast as the others since he has less greed and treated like a child, loved and cared for.

Unlike the rest of the dragons, who are out in the wild facing the harsh world.

So in a way no matter how old you are if you are treated by everyone as a child... You are a child. But luckily at the end of season 9 we know he's grown up as a demihuman dragon form... Maybe pride or friendship made him grow instead of greed.

I guess spike is more of a Digimon.... Depending on how you treat him that's how he Digivolves hahaha.

Here's the thing, he doesn't age any slower. Applebloom is older than him (You can tell because in the memory, Applebloom is already born and AJ doesn't have his cutie mark yet = Spike isn't born yet.) . If dragons are supposed to age slower, he would have to be more immature than CMCs, and he isn't. His behavior is more like the 6 mane. And no, his "child" behavior is actually close to the 6 mane behavior. He's braver than Fluttershy from the start, he's been the voice of reason a couple of times (especially for Twi) . Also Twi herself never had had decision power over him, as if Rarity with SB or AJ with Applebloom does. What is concluded is that dragons mature faster but age slower. And if Spike really was a child/baby, then that leaves Twi as a lousy sister because she never gives him the attention / care that AJ or Rarity have with her sisters.

 

On 2022-04-28 at 1:09 AM, Sparklefan1234 said:

Season 1, Episode 2

 

Spike: Uh... We gotta stop Nightmare!...

Twilight Sparkle: You've been up all night, Spike. You are a baby dragon after all. 

Good answer, though. How much does Twilight know about dragons? Any. she didn't know the basics of dragons like growth from envy, she didn't know why Spike glowed when he was called to the challenge of fire, she didn't know anything when he went through his molting changes, or that he could have wings. In fact the princesses themselves (who lived for thousands of years) admit they didn't know much about dragons. So if Twilight called him a baby dragon, it wasn't because he was one, but because she saw him as small and she assumed he was. Well, there is no other argument than its size that supports being called that. Well, Twilight and the rest of EQ didn't know how the growth of dragons worked until the last few seasons.

 

 

On 2022-04-28 at 3:23 AM, TomDaBombMLP said:

Plus the whole conversation with Fluttershy where she's amazed to see 'A baby dragon.' 

As I answered to the previous colleague, none of the EQ ponies (not even the princesses themselves) knew much about dragons until the last few seasons, the only reason they called him that is because he was small.

 

On 2022-04-28 at 7:16 AM, ExplosionMare said:

He was definitely a child in the way he acted, that’s for sure. He had a list he made once that included “smell my dirty feet”. He was only called a baby because of his size.

What do you mean act like one? The mane 6 have traits that could fit perfectly in children too, Fluttershy being extremely shy with everyone, Rarity exaggerating for every detail that doesn't go well for her, pinkie pie being super innocent of the dangers she faces (like the first time she sees to nigtmare moon or the red dragon) and so on with the rest. And I'm only talking about the first 3 seasons, before their personalities were flanderized.

 

On 2022-04-28 at 2:31 PM, WWolf said:

Baby like the way siblings call their much younger siblings “baby brother/sister”, but certainly not a baby  .

I mean we’d be asking who changed his diapers  . For a dragon he’s certainly “baby” but not quite either.

There I could agree with you only in the first season, because later we see that it is managed independently, and not to mention season 6 where it can already reign over all the dragons in the challenge of fire (in fact if you look against who competes they are all adult teenage dragons, there is none that looks like him)

 

 

On 2022-04-28 at 7:12 PM, Fluttershutter said:

Dragons apparently live longer than ponies and mature more slowly so they're considered "babies" for a longer time like Grogu. He was fifty years old and considered a young child anyway.

In the show Spike is young and in the final episode I'd say he's the equivalent of a teenage dragon. His voice sound kind of like it's just changing. I guess that's partly because the actress can't do a deep masculine voice but he really just seemed somewhat awkward and teenaged there. He's just very mature for his age.

The aging theory is wrong, if so Spike should be more immature than the CMC, since he was born after Applebloom. I I think that dragons reach maturity faster and from there they age slower.

1:50

In season 8 Smolder tells him that once the moult arrives, the dragons throw the son out of the house and he becomes independent (that is, an adult, this being the same age as the CMC). As for its size, the best explanation I can give is that it was raised with ponies and never needed to move to eat, survive, etc. (Well, let's remember that the dragon nation has a hard way of life compared to the ponies). His body got used to that easy life and developed slower PHYSICALLY. Something that happens with animals that are raised in zoos, once you put them in nature it is difficult for them to get used to it because they always lived off someone else.

 

On 2022-04-28 at 7:43 PM, AlbaTross said:

I think the term "baby" was used to distinguish him from a mature dragon.  Given that he still had a child voice throughout the series and seemed to have some child-like personality traits, he probably wasn't all that old.  However, given that he went through two separate examples of what is presumably dragon puberty, one in the second season, one in the penultimate, I would probably consider him to be a pre-teen for the bulk of the series, maybe 13 tops later on, excluding the post-time skip scene at the end of the last episode.  

As for the real age we are in complete agreement (he should not be more than 13-14). However, it is easy to see that his behavior and that of the CMCs is not the same, in fact all the characters have childish behaviors (even the princesses and Discord themselves). He is also a dragon and, therefore, he grows differently, (in fact if we go to EQG he is a dog, and we already know how is the difference between the maturity of a dog and that of a human). What I want to get at is that dragons reach maturity faster and from there they age slowly. So he must be at the level of the 6 mane in terms of maturity

 

On 2022-04-28 at 8:55 PM, Steve Piranha said:

Very interesting there are theories that dragon growth is separated via natural ways and greed, considering it was outright stated when Spike got his wings. Anyway, I’m sure the denomination of “baby dragon”, is more out of tradition due to his past generation incarnations rather than actually being a baby, as well evidenced by his level of maturity from the get go. No need for wing-sprouting puberty to notice 

Yes, it must be something else out of habit, although I disagree on the part about him acting like a child. As I see it, it has the same level of immaturity/maturity that the mane 6 have throughout the series. And the wings do not determine if a dragon is an adult or not.

At minute 2:30 we can see an apparently young adult dragon with a giant tail and no wings.

Also, if in the end it turns out the same as the toy in the series or comics, Spike's "replacement" is apparently smaller than him and already has wings.

 

 

 

 

On 2022-04-27 at 9:55 PM, Kujamih said:

 

...yes and your point? That's why I separated time age and greed age formula .....

And spike can change his age. I believe dragons are in the category of immortals like the phoenix or alicorn, unless they get eaten by a Rok.

I think if you put spike in a helpless state or a trauma he might revert back into an egg... Or worse go back to none existence.

Hence maybe the reason why he doesn't age as fast as the others since he has less greed and treated like a child, loved and cared for.

Unlike the rest of the dragons, who are out in the wild facing the harsh world.

So in a way no matter how old you are if you are treated by everyone as a child... You are a child. But luckily at the end of season 9 we know he's grown up as a demihuman dragon form... Maybe pride or friendship made him grow instead of greed.

I guess spike is more of a Digimon.... Depending on how you treat him that's how he Digivolves hahaha.

Regarding the size we can see that the dragons are in constant fights and extreme sports. They should not have an abundance of food because they are dedicated to hunting or looking for gems. They are in constant movement and alert for danger. All this makes their biology force them to mature fast and strong in order to survive. Spike on the other hand ever since he was born, he's softened up with taking care of the ponies. It is the same thing that happens to animals that are raised in zoos, they are smaller and weaker than those that are raised in the wild. himself when he looked in the mirror trying to look strong showed that he is chubby and out of shape.

 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

1 hour ago, SergioFernandez said:

Here's the thing, he doesn't age any slower. Applebloom is older than him (You can tell because in the memory, Applebloom is already born and AJ doesn't have his cutie mark yet = Spike isn't born yet.) . If dragons are supposed to age slower, he would have to be more immature than CMCs, and he isn't. His behavior is more like the 6 mane. And no, his "child" behavior is actually close to the 6 mane behavior. He's braver than Fluttershy from the start, he's been the voice of reason a couple of times (especially for Twi) . Also Twi herself never had had decision power over him, as if Rarity with SB or AJ with Applebloom does. What is concluded is that dragons mature faster but age slower. And if Spike really was a child/baby, then that leaves Twi as a lousy sister because she never gives him the attention / care that AJ or Rarity have with her sisters.

 

 

All you gave are just your opinions though.....

[SergioFernandez 33]

9 hours ago, Kujamih said:

All you gave are just your opinions though.....

But they are opinions based on arguments. They are facts that happen in the series and from there I get an opinion backed up with evidence. 

Again, if dragons are supposed to age slower. Why isn't Spike more immature than the CMCs if he was born after Applebloom?
Compare to CMC: CMC need babysitter (FS). AB goes through fire swamp - grounded. CMC go to other town in s09 - grounded.
And also he and Twilight have a strange relationship. Sometimes he acts like her guardian of her, and sometimes she acts like his guardian of her.

[Rosy Moonlight 369]

I think that Spike being called a "baby dragon" for most of the series was mostly cultural thing, partly because the dragon's lifespan can be confusing to measure.

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Rosy Moonlight

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

3 hours ago, SergioFernandez said:

But they are opinions based on arguments. Again, if dragons are supposed to age slower. Why isn't Spike more immature than the CMCs if he was born after Applebloom?
Compare to CMC: CMC need babysitter (FS). AB goes through fire swamp - grounded. CMC go to other town in s09 - grounded.
And also he and Twilight have a strange relationship. Sometimes he acts like her guardian of her, and sometimes she acts like his guardian of her.
They are facts that happen in the series and from there I get an opinion backed up with evidence. 

Look maturity and age do not grow together.... For example I'm really old but not as mature as you think I am.... That could be said to spike ... He can be a child with a mature mind... Maturer than the rest .... Especially if he grew up with twilight.... Hence me saying it's you opinion.

[SasQ 1,376]

On 2022-04-27 at 4:46 PM, SergioFernandez said:

I plan on doing a blog (and video) on why Spike was never (or at least since Season 2) a baby dragon/child, as many fans say. With this blog, I just want to see all of your arguments as to why you think he's not a teen/adult, to make sure I'm not letting any details slip. Thank you in advance for reading and commenting, I promise to be very respectful so that we can have an enriching, healthy and entertaining debate.

Well, it would have been be a debate if you provided any arguments on your side first :q  Otherwise it looks very much as if you were trying to troll people into providing you the arguments for the contrary. In a debate, you must provide your point of view and your arguments first, so that other people could either agree with you or refute your arguments if they spot any mistakes, false statements or contradictions in them. But there's nothing to refute in your original post, except for the title, which (from what I've seen) has been immediately refuted by @TomDaBombMLP :q

In debates (and logic), the burden of proof is upon the one who makes a claim, so it is on you in this case. Making a claim like the one from the title, you should have started from providing your arguments first. It's not other people's responsibility to prove you wrong, or to provide arguments for you (that would be another mistake on their side: a strawman argument, because they would then be trying to refute arguments that wasn't yours.)

Also keep in mind that it's rather hard (if not impossible) to disprove negative statements, because it requires having the full complement known, which might be possible in mathematics, but not in real life. If you don't understand why, then I claim that there are invisible fairies in my basement. Prove me wrong.

On 2022-04-28 at 1:09 AM, Sparklefan1234 said:

Season 1, Episode 2:

Spike: Uh... We gotta stop Nightmare!...
Twilight Sparkle: You've been up all night, Spike. You are a baby dragon after all. 

and

On 2022-04-28 at 3:23 AM, TomDaBombMLP said:

Plus the whole conversation with Fluttershy where she's amazed to see 'A baby dragon.' 

Playing the devil's advocate a bit:
The fact that Twilight Sparkle or Fluttershy say something about Spike, doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct
They themselves might have been mistaken, or fooled by his appearances.If some of the ponies said that Spike is a potato, should we immediately believe them?

So maybe the first thing we should do, is to think a bit about what would constitute a valid, conclusive proof in this matter, either for one side or another? If we can't take ponies' opinions on this as conclusive, what proofs can we accept? Can a Dragon be considered an expert on this subject? (E.g. if Smolder or Ember said that Spike is a baby dragon, could we take that as a "yes"?)

8 hours ago, Starforce said:

I do not really accept Spike as canon, really. I've always been annoyed by him since I saw him anyways.

Now that's just plain denial, if I ever saw one :J  I mean, come on! He's in almost every canonical episode! (As well as in previous generations.) How can he not be a canonical character?

[SergioFernandez 33]

This image was shown, and I know that many will think the same as it. For what I would like to show why I do not agree.

For a long time during the series, many of us wondered why Spike didn't have wings like the other dragons. Was it half something else? It was special? Different species?, etc.

In the end it was simply that he had not gone through the molting process, so many people believed that a dragon with wings was a sign of maturity.

However, this has been nothing more than a mere assumption of the fans, because NEVER (and if I'm wrong, please let me know) was it explained in the series that the dragon's maturity and the growth of his wings were correlated with each other. In fact, in the entire "Molt Down" chapter, not even Smolder mentions it (as the image wants to show us): starts in minute 3:05 .

Spike's wings were going to be a big change in his physique, so why would Smolder tell him about the smell but not such an important detail like that? Well (and here I am theorizing) because maybe she knows that, just as there are dragons with spikes and others not. Wings could also be present on some dragons and not others. I'll show you now:

My second argument is that nothing more and nothing less than in the second season, in the chapter "Dragon Quest", minute 2:30, we are shown a young / adult dragon in the foreground (so it was not some animation error) without wings. Here's the link.

Even so, this is not the only reason why Sparky was born with wings, we have 3 theories that I read on derpibooru:

1. Dragons have evolved in such a way that everyone is now born with wings.

2. As said before, there are different species of dragons. Just as in ponies only pegasi are born with wings, Sparky could belong to a species of winged dragons from the beginning.

3. Being a "co-star" in the series, there is a (minimal) chance that Hasbro will make him special to the rest of the dragons and be something unique in his species.

MLP doesn't stand out as having the strongest continuity of all, but this is NOT a script hole in my opinion.
Do you agree? Disagreement? Why? Write me in the answers, I will be happy to read your point of view.

[Scilla Bell 103]

I like the idea that Sparky is a different species of dragon and also the evolution explanation. They make enough sense and fit in best with the idea most people have regarding dragon development. 

[Rosy Moonlight 369]

I think the reason for Sparky being born with wings could be a case of evolution, since Sparky is born generations (possibly millennia) after G4.

I now wonder if it will be like a Flurry Heart situation (unusually born with wings with no real explanation).

I hope it will not be like that.

The appearances of the ponies visibly changed from G4, and even several critters in G5 are different from the ones from G4.

Considering things fell apart and got really hostile between G4 and G5, it makes sense that newborn dragons in G5 would be born with wings so they could learn to fly away from danger as soon as possible.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rosy Moonlight

[SergioFernandez 33]

8 minutes ago, -Buttercup- said:

If wings are not related to the maturity of the dragon, why is Spike and some of the others so small compared to the others?

Spike looks smaller, but that has more to do with being raised and pampered with ponies he never had the need to fight, and compete against others of his kind. Something similar to what happens with animals that are raised in zoos and in the wild. Also in Gauntlet of Fire we can see that the other dragons he faces are all young/adult. There is none like him, so it tells us that he is closer to being an adult than a child.