Feedback Wanted - Should we expand the rank system?

[Jeric 46,850]

In the past post count and only post count determined your rank. This is no longer the case due to changes from IPS. Ranks are now awarded and tracked based on points that the community users earn. As of the time of this post the default will be 1 point for a new topic and 1 point for a reply to an existing topic. That basically brings us close to the original intent of the old system. The old system was nice and simple. You make a post and you take one step closer to the next rank. This new system was forced on us, but there is an opportunity to use it differently and that may appeal to some of you. Here are some options available to us. Lets keep this on-topic to just counting toward ranks. In the future I may be using this system to award badges for using the site. 

 

Creating a new topic can be worth more than a point. 

Receiving a brohoof can count. 

Status Updates can count.

Replies to Status Updates can count. 

Blogs can count. 

Logging in the first time that day can count. 

Creating RP Character Sheets can count. 

Being followed can count. 

 

As you can tell it can go on and on. Some of these I'm generally more interested in implementing like New Topics being rewarded because it does do more for creating potential conversations and such. It is also worth noting that increasing the opportunity to rapidly move up in rank may mean that we will eventually need to add new levels to the ranks. 

For now a simple yes and no will work and I can make subsequent polls going forward. In some cases I'll roll out features that are brand new, but I don't like to do wholesale changes to an existing system we've had for over a decade without feedback. 
 

[Brony Number 42 10,069]

I like the idea of getting points for more than just spamming posts. Maybe put a cap per day on points for posts.

[Megas 27,568]

I think topics, blog posts and Brohoofs should count. I don't see how the first two are any different to posts, and if anything they encourage more interaction and discussion. Meanwhile brohoofs usually encourage people to make more quality posts

EDIT: Ever considered custom ranks? Maybe for subscribers or veteran/active posters?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Megas

[Jeric 46,850]

1 minute ago, Megas said:

I think topics, blog posts and Brohoofs should count. I don't see how the first two are any different to posts, and if anything they encourage more interaction and discussion. Meanwhile brohoofs usually encourage people to make more quality posts

Blogs are probably a no-brainer since a lot of effort goes into them, in many cases as much or more than a new topic. 

[Splashee 28,563]

A simple answer: Simpler is better for everypony.

 

Simple system is easier and helps new members to know how to interact with the forum, keeps the forum attractive to posting, which is what has kept this place alive for the last years now.
Ranks by post count. Post count are owned by yourself and should be visible in posts, rather than ambiguous ranks often very far apart from even pony related.

 

 

A more complex answer:
 

Spoiler

Keeping everything a secret. Not knowing what makes you advance as a member. Some games use this technology to rank in-game "points" or "grades". It works for a while, until someone finds and exploits the situation.

Truth is, no matter what system, it will be exploited.

What is spamming?
Spamming is replying? Spamming is bumping threads? Spamming is creating new threads? Or simply, spamming is posting nonsense to gain points? I have not seen any member with high post count posting nonsense. All of our posts should count. Even new members trying to get a hoof into our community.

 

The more friends you have to give you points, the more points you will get. This is how brohoofs have worked in the past. But you need friends, and new members have not had it easy to find friends. And people fall out of friendships all the time.

 

In the past:
-The wins were removed.
-The post counts were hidden from posts.
-And lastly, the ranks were bugged out.....
BUT, no one stopped posting for more post content, and that kept the forum alive. It was the individual member that had control of posting, not their friends, or non-friends.

 

So the answer for me is, keep it simple. Currently, posts matters the most. Deny people to earn for posting, and the forum will drop in activity. Complicate things and it will become confusing for new members.

 

[Jeric 46,850]

10 minutes ago, Megas said:

EDIT: Ever considered custom ranks? Maybe for subscribers or veteran/active posters?

Yes, often actually. I also would like the ability to have users be able to switch to any badge they have previously earned. Both are possible but messy to implement 

[Jeric 46,850]

3 minutes ago, Splashee said:

A simple answer: Simpler is better for everypony.

 

Simple system is easier and helps new members to know how to interact with the forum, keeps the forum attractive to posting, which is what has kept this place alive for the last years now.
Ranks by post count. Post count are owned by yourself and should be visible in posts, rather than ambiguous ranks often very far apart from even pony related.

 

 

A more complex answer:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Keeping everything a secret. Not knowing what makes you advance as a member. Some games use this technology to rank in-game "points" or "grades". It works for a while, until someone finds and exploits the situation.

Truth is, no matter what system, it will be exploited.

What is spamming?
Spamming is replying? Spamming is bumping threads? Spamming is creating new threads? Or simply, spamming is posting nonsense to gain points? I have not seen any member with high post count posting nonsense. All of our posts should count. Even new members trying to get a hoof into our community.

 

The more friends you have to give you points, the more points you will get. This is how brohoofs have worked in the past. But you need friends, and new members have not had it easy to find friends. And people fall out of friendships all the time.

 

In the past:
-The wins were removed.
-The post counts were hidden from posts.
-And lastly, the ranks were bugged out.....
BUT, no one stopped posting for more post content, and that kept the forum alive. It was the individual member that had control of posting, not their friends, or non-friends.

 

So the answer for me is, keep it simple. Currently, posts matters the most. Deny people to earn for posting, and the forum will drop in activity. Complicate things and it will become confusing for new members.

 

Your long form thoughts are very well thought out, and perhaps the strongest argument for both simplicity and not limiting the community for the annoyances created by a few individuals. 

[Jeric 46,850]

Moments ago, Props said:

For some reason I am not getting notifications for this thread. Is that because of these changes that are going on?

Not sure, but it’s possible and even likely. 

[cmarston1 5,959]

I would actually be in favor for the new system you would want to implement.  I like the idea of users being able to get rewarded for things other than just posts on topics.  With actions such as creating blog posts and status updates, or responding to them being actions that could help one gain points to raise their ranks, their would be more of an incentive to interact with the site in numerous different ways and through that I feel that you could help further drive user engagement. by giving users more reasons to stay around.

Edited September 6, 2022 by cmarston1

[Rainbow Cloud 17,925]

I think the current system just based on posts is better as it seems the fairest and easiest to follow, though if it does change to include the other options it may be better to exclude brohoof's as it will probably just distort the ranking system in favour of the most popular or well known users and become a popularity contest.

I'd also suggest changing the Forum Lounge so the posts there count towards your post count as the content there doesn't seem that different from the General Discussion where the posts do count.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Rainbow Cloud

[Luna the Great of all the Russias 2,983]

Not sure if this would necessarily be a good idea, assuming it can be implemented, but perhaps an OP can receive points the more posts are made in their topic (something like one point for every X posts).

And is activity in the Forum Games and Forum Lounge still to count for nothing in the new system, or perhaps the activity there will be worth only a fraction of the activity in other parts of the forums?

 

[Jeric 46,850]

13 minutes ago, Luna the Great of all the Russias said:

Not sure if this would necessarily be a good idea, assuming it can be implemented, but perhaps an OP can receive points the more posts are made in their topic (something like one point for every X posts)

Two ways this can happen. One is giving more points to every new topic which would go to the OP. The system also allows the OP to get a point for every reply too. 
 

17 minutes ago, Luna the Great of all the Russias said:

And is activity in the Forum Games and Forum Lounge still to count for nothing in the new system, or perhaps the activity there will be worth only a fraction of the activity in other parts of the forum

Points based on content won’t exclude forums. Actually from what I can see they can’t exclude forums. For this reason areas excluded previously will probably be aligned to have posts counted since the reason for excluding them back in the early days of the forum is no longer applicable. 

[Rainbow Cloud 17,925]

11 minutes ago, Props said:

The main reason why I do not use the Forum Lounge is that posts do not count there.

Yeah, think it can be discouraging posting in the sections where posts don't count, I do post in Forum Lounge particularly if there's a topic there that looks interesting but admittedly it does cross my mind if it's worth posting there if it doesn't count.

[Splashee 28,563]

34 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Points based on content won’t exclude forums

Then the question becomes:
Is Forum Games considered high quality posting? Take Count to a Million for example?

 

I see a potential to increase my points by simply spending all days posting numbers. (I have no problems with others doing this, I am just not seeing the reward of such thing myself). I would rather talk about how I am feeling or thinking and get points for that. Especially with the 20 characters limit in effect. That's high quality posting in my opinion.

 

 

[Denim&Venöm 18,738]

Maybe this system was implemented after I maxed my rank, but how the heck were we earning points before if it wasn't through the 'old' system? 

[Misty Shadow 7,846]

I like the idea of brohoofs, logging in, and blog posts contributing to rank. We already have an incentive to "brohoof farm", simply because it's fun to get brohoofs, so I don't think making brohoofs count will really affect much. Forum game posts, however, should not count because they're too easy to make. That is also why I'm iffy about status updates counting because they are also very easy to make. 

[Pandora 38,015]

1 hour ago, Rainbow Cloud said:

I think the current system just based on posts is better as it seems the fairest and easiest to follow, though if it does change to include the other options it may be better to exclude brohoof's as it will probably just distort the ranking system in favour of the most popular or well known users and become a popularity contest.

I'd also suggest changing the Forum Lounge so the posts there count towards your post count as the content there doesn't seem that different from the General Discussion where the posts do count.

I agree on excluding brohoofs it wouldn’t be fair to newer users 

[Jeric 46,850]

9 minutes ago, Pandora said:

I agree on excluding brohoofs it wouldn’t be fair to newer users 

That is not a factor in what I do. Also it would be fair. The standard would be that your account grows from the moment you join and based on your use of the site. That standard is applied to all parties so it is, but definition, fair. 

[Pandora 38,015]

8 minutes ago, Jeric said:

That is not a factor in what I do. Also it would be fair. The standard would be that your account grows from the moment you join and based on your use of the site. That standard is applied to all parties so it is, but definition, fair. 

That’s not what I meant, Jeric. I meant it as in how the person I quoted either way if you say it’s fair I trust you but more concerned about how people would use this to shoot up ranking ^^’ 

also what about the count to million etc posts?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Pandora

[Jeric 46,850]

54 minutes ago, Splashee said:

Then the question becomes:
Is Forum Games considered high quality posting? Take Count to a Million for example?

 

I see a potential to increase my points by simply spending all days posting numbers. (I have no problems with others doing this, I am just not seeing the reward of such thing myself). I would rather talk about how I am feeling or thinking and get points for that. Especially with the 20 characters limit in effect. That's high quality posting in my opinion.

 

 

I think we may be getting confused.
 

I can’t fix the ranks without counting those posts. It’s literally not possible. Ranks are not part of post count and I cannot assign points to posts counting just one area and excluding the others. You post in any forum … it’s going to count toward increasing your rank no matter what. Unless we scrap ranks which I think is going to be highly unpopular.  
 

Post count is something different, and as of version 4.6 has been decoupled from ranks. It serves only to give new access and features but once you hit 100 posts you have no restrictions anymore. 
 

As far as low quality posts, the Global Rules already has a built in expectation that some areas are fine to have a lower quality (it mentioned Forum Games by name) 

[Jeric 46,850]

46 minutes ago, Denim&Venöm said:

Maybe this system was implemented after I maxed my rank, but how the heck were we earning points before if it wasn't through the 'old' system? 

When you posted a new topic or reply in an existing top. Ranks and your badges were keyed off of your post count. That is not the case anymore 

[Jeric 46,850]

3 hours ago, Jeric said:

It is also worth noting that increasing the opportunity to rapidly move up in rank may mean that we will eventually need to add new levels to the ranks. 

@Props

[Rikifive 24,128]

I fear counting posts from forum games may negatively influence the entire system, rendering it rather meaningless.

Generally, yes, being rewarded for posting does indeed encourage one to post more, I think we all can agree on this. But, will it matter anymore when you'll be posting quality posts and be proud of your, let's say, 100 posts and get excited for advancing to the next rank, when there will be tons of other members having thousands and even more "points" for just posting numbers in Count to a Million topic and having all the ranks unlocked already? To me it would be simply heavily unbalanced and the entire feature would lose its meaning, other than always being something for lols I guess.

Same problem arises with brohooves, at a higher rate at that. Let's take the Count to a Million topic again, if someone would go and post there a lot with a group of like 5 friends, then not only you'd get 1 point for posting, but also 5 another from brohooves. That gives 6 points per post and everyone would be boosting each other, putting a giant shadow on the rest of community who tries to approach it more legitimately. I see members already being worried of potentially losing their hard-earned high ranks, but even if they'll get these back, will it matter anymore when pretty much everyone will have these too just like this? It's just as meaningful as everyone being blank flanks, just a different graphic.

Now, it was made clear it is what it is and that the Invision is behind all of this, so consider this being my random opinion on Invision's decisions than anything else.  

Buuuuuuuuuut now on the bright side, counting to a million is still some content, right? Yay for activity! Playing games with friends suits pony forums, so it's a perfect opportunity to grab a tea, get some friends and count to a million faster than ever before! Someone go ahead and change the topic name to "Count to a Billion", because we'll quickly run out of numbers. I'm gonna grind soooo hard I alone will be eating forums' resources more aggressively than DDoS attacks!  Forums will be down? Yep! It's still processing my numbers!  Nothing can stop my hunger!!  We got it guys, let's goooo!  jk

 

*ahem* Seriously though, since the system is already unbalanced and easy to abuse, I'd say that nothing really matters anymore, there's not much to discuss I guess, so from me, yes to all mentioned options, except brohooves, to reduce the abuse potential at least to the tiniest possible degree.

Status updates, replies to these --- none of these will be even remotely as efficient as posting numbers as they require much more effort, so they pose no harm to balance and is only right to count these too in the light of new grinding options, to respect other forms of activity. Brohooves can greatly help abuse most types of content by multiplying the effects, so maybe it would be best to pass just on that one to slow it down. Besides, brohooves already have their own counter, so they already have their function.

Also given it would be super easy to get points, putting a considerable amount for creating topics wouldn't be a bad idea, to appreciate the hard work of members trying to sparkle some meaningful discussions.

 

Other than that...

- If there would be an option to add a daily cap (either total points or different caps for each category), then it would be a good approach to maintain the ranks somewhat balanced. There wouldn't be numbers like 100 for users posting long, quality content for weeks VS random dude out of nowhere having 10000 just for counting in like a week, so automatically, it would be easier to setup the rank chain without anyone skyrocketing through all tiers, and everyone could keep up with each other as long as they'd be active everyday in any way they prefer (whether games, RP or meaningful discussions etc.). Some sites do have such limits in place, usually caps per type of activity to encourage trying different things and participating in all types of activity.

- I guess a suggestion to bring back content count to posts? squeeeeeeeeeee? Given ranks don't do justice now, maybe the content count would help restore what was lost, to some degree. These still can exclude posts from various areas, right? Then that's the potential workaround. To me that number never bothered me in any way, but if anything, only encouraged to post more just like ranks do. Buuuut, since now ranks will be... let's say, favorizing forum games, those who post quality content may see these as rather unfair, so at this point I'd lean towards displaying that count? squeeeeeeeeeee? Just thonking out loud I guess.

 

Eh.. me and my walls of text, that surely is something invision guys can't change lol.

[Jeric 46,850]

@Rikifive A daily cap is possible right now as that is part of the new system that replaced the old one, and may be a reasonable compromise to balance posts counting more often, and keeping things more in balance. 

[Jeric 46,850]

2 minutes ago, Props said:

@Jeric

I won't object to a daily cap. If we are to add more new ranks, do you have any idea what new ranks would be added?

Not even thinking about that. One thing at a time.