mega thread Everypony's Religion And Why?

[John 793]

@@John,

 

I am an atheist, because to me there is too much evidence supporting a less simplified way of creation. I believe in the Big Bang Theory, and also that universes form from miniature versions of this explosion. I also believe it could've happened several times.

How is it possible to get something out of nothing?

Simple, there was actually never nothing. It was just spread several times over the history of Outer Space. (I don't say the universe, because i believe in multiple universes, I think likely 100's maybe even 1000's exist.) And after a few "Big Bangs" It became something through chemical bonding. Nebula, rocks, started to form. And the most recent? Spread space it out the farthest. Even less than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of the mass from everything would be our galaxy. But, I digress.

Yes I am an athiest and that is because there is a more reasonable explanation for everything than the man in the heavens that somehow obtained supernatural powers.

I respect your beliefs.  They aren't unreasonable and you justify your reasons for believing.

 

However,

As a catholic, we are not required to believe that the universe was created in literal "7 days."  These days could have been longer units of time which we're just called "days" because there was no other word in Ancient Hebrew that meant a longer period of time that's not infinity.  The Bible and other religious texts have been translated many times from different languages (originally into Latin, then German, ect.), and do not necessarily mean exactly what they mean 100% of the time.  Also, the G-d that Catholics believe in isn't some weird supernatural Zeus-looking guy floating among the clouds.  (This was an image created by western civilization which was trying to represent G-d graphically.)  The G-d we believe in does not have a definite form, but rather exists as the Trinity of G-d the creator, the Holy Spirit  (Imagine a Holy force) and the Son, which was Jesus or God personified/manifested in a human body.

 

As someone studying Physics, I can tell you that the Big Bang absolutely did happen.  (Now I wouldn't agree with all of this other alternate universe talk as this isn't really supported in most current theories.  Unless your watching some documentary narrated by Morgan Freeman )  The Big Bang, however, is fact.  In fact, there is reason to believe that many of the laws which govern the universe were created in this extraordinary expansion.  Before gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces and electromagnetism even existed, all forces were originally just one uniform force.  Before chemical bonding could even exist,  the only thing existing were very energetic subatomic particles.  (Many quarks, leptons, positrons, electrons, ect.)

 

But I'm going into too much detail about that... 

 

Overall...

The reason I'm catholic is because I really  don't feel like my simple human brain with my 5 shallow senses can really deduce if we have a reason for being.  I would rather put my faith in a guy who believed so much in his G-d that he went to the worlds most brutal empire at the time and chose to die suffocating and nailed upside down onto a large piece of wood just to prove a point.

Plus, I always feel comfortable at church because the church is really just a big family where everyone understands each other.

I'm actually a Misotheist (Misotheism)

I really don't know many other that share my beliefs, yet Antithiests (Antitheism) is pretty close.

 

And as for why, well if there is such thing as god, he's obviously a fucking asshole.

There's so much shit in the world people are doing in the name of god/gods I mean come on no one's gonna believe your lies.

Wars/Homicide/Abuse?

Rejecting human rights?

Homophobia/Transphobia?

Anything someone doesn't approve of but doesn't want to look like a complete asshole?

 

I don't believe in any god and frankly I hate them all.

 

No offense bro,

but you're blaming G-d for all of these things.  Have you ever considered that maybe G-d values freedom of choice so much that he wouldn't take it away just to prevent these things?

 

And why should the creator of the universe be subject to what you (a mere mortal) believe is right and wrong?

Edited July 1, 2013 by John

[Symph 103]

@@John,

 

I respect your beliefs.  They aren't unreasonable and you justify your reasons for believing.

 

However,

As a catholic, we are not required to believe that the universe was created in literal "7 days."  These days could have been longer units of time which we're just called "days" because there was no other word in Ancient Hebrew that meant a longer period of time that's not infinity.  The Bible and other religious texts have been translated many times from different languages (originally into Latin, then German, ect.), and do not necessarily mean exactly what they mean 100% of the time.  Also, the G-d that Catholics believe in isn't some weird supernatural Zeus-looking guy floating among the clouds.  (This was an image created by western civilization which was trying to represent G-d graphically.)  The G-d we believe in does not have a definite form, but rather exists as the Trinity of G-d the creator, the Holy Spirit  (Imagine a Holy force) and the Son, which was Jesus or God personified/manifested in a human body.

 

As someone studying Physics, I can tell you that the Big Bang absolutely did happen.  (Now I wouldn't agree with all of this other alternate universe talk as this isn't really supported in most current theories.  Unless your watching some documentary narrated by Morgan Freeman )  The Big Bang, however, is fact.  In fact, there is reason to believe that many of the laws which govern the universe were created in this extraordinary expansion.  Before gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces and electromagnetism even existed, all forces were originally just one uniform force.  Before chemical bonding could even exist,  the only thing existing were very energetic subatomic particles.  (Many quarks, leptons, positrons, electrons, ect.)

 

But I'm going into too much detail about that... 

 

Overall...

The reason I'm catholic is because I really  don't feel like my simple human brain with my 5 shallow senses can really deduce if we have a reason for being.  I would rather put my faith in a guy who believed so much in his G-d that he went to the worlds most brutal empire at the time and chose to die suffocating and nailed upside down onto a large piece of wood just to prove a point.

Plus, I always feel comfortable at church because the church is really just a big family where everyone understands each other.

 

No offense bro,

but you're blaming G-d for all of these things.  Have you ever considered that maybe G-d values freedom of choice so much that he wouldn't take it away just to prevent these things?

 

And why should the creator of the universe be subject to what you (a mere mortal) believe is right and wrong?

I don't do this anymore.  It was too much of a headache.  Too many circles.  When you actually DO shut down a point that some of the atheists debating me would make, they would simply go on to another perceived biblical fallacy in the bible and ignore my tiny victory.  Now granted, I've had plenty of debates with christians that gave me JUST as much frustration.  But that's why ultimately, I don't think it really matters.  If God is love, and love is God, and God is good, and in control, then it's not MY job, to convert the whole world.  And yes I DO know the verse about when a soul is lost that being on your hands if you could have saved them but didn't, but I don't think it's as simple as people want to make it.  And who's to say I could have done anything?  I've found the more I push, the less I accomplish, and the more negativity is birthed.  Therefore, I choose to just love others like Jesus did, and tell them what I believe IF THEY ASK.  If they don't ask?  I just keep on loving, and don't worry about their soul's destination, as time is a funny thing, and every christian was once not a christian, and who can truly say what happens when we die, we don't know.  Once again I'm anticipating verses catholics have quoted me before to disprove me LOL, maybe you won't do that, but I'm just saying, I don't think everything in the bible is as literal as it may appear.  Anyway, Im delving too deep into this, don't wanna get sucked into anything, but ultimately, I admire your willpower to get into these kinds of discussions and defend your beliefs, I just don't have it anymore man.  

[John 793]

I don't do this anymore.  It was too much of a headache.  Too many circles.  When you actually DO shut down a point that some of the atheists debating me would make, they would simply go on to another perceived biblical fallacy in the bible and ignore my tiny victory.  Now granted, I've had plenty of debates with christians that gave me JUST as much frustration.  But that's why ultimately, I don't think it really matters.  If God is love, and love is God, and God is good, and in control, then it's not MY job, to convert the whole world.  And yes I DO know the verse about when a soul is lost that being on your hands if you could have saved them but didn't, but I don't think it's as simple as people want to make it.  And who's to say I could have done anything?  I've found the more I push, the less I accomplish, and the more negativity is birthed.  Therefore, I choose to just love others like Jesus did, and tell them what I believe IF THEY ASK.  If they don't ask?  I just keep on loving, and don't worry about their soul's destination, as time is a funny thing, and every christian was once not a christian, and who can truly say what happens when we die, we don't know.  Once again I'm anticipating verses catholics have quoted me before to disprove me LOL, maybe you won't do that, but I'm just saying, I don't think everything in the bible is as literal as it may appear.  Anyway, Im delving too deep into this, don't wanna get sucked into anything, but ultimately, I admire your willpower to get into these kinds of discussions and defend your beliefs, I just don't have it anymore man.  

 

Well, we have something in common then.  I don't really need to debate you because we kind of agree.  

We both think that the bible shouldn't entirely be taken literally, but more metaphorically at parts.

 

So why are you quoting what I said?

Edited July 1, 2013 by John

[Symph 103]

Well, we have something in common then.  I don't really need to debate you because we kind of agree.  

We both think that the bible shouldn't entirely be taken literally, but more metaphorically at parts.

 

So why are you quoting what I said?

I think you're misunderstand me.  I was fearing things that happened in the past, I don't know you very well, so I was kind of expecting the onslaught I used to experience when running my channel where  I talked about my beliefs but not sure if it was coming or not.  I merely quoted your post to say "Yeah, I used to have the guts to do what you just did, I just don't anymore man"  It was a "right on I respect you for that" quote more than anything with a bit of "I hope you don't end up trying to "correct me" caused by past experiences.  

[Le Kvlt Dawn 2,364]

The reason I'm catholic is because I really  don't feel like my simple human brain with my 5 shallow senses can really deduce if we have a reason for being.  I would rather put my faith in a guy who believed so much in his G-d that he went to the worlds most brutal empire at the time and chose to die suffocating and nailed upside down onto a large piece of wood. Plus, I always feel comfortable at church because the church is really just a big family where everyone understands each other

Well, I used to be a Catholic but then I became an atheist. I was just not happy with Catholicism and I found it restrictive. (Keep in my mind I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just sharing my story). IMO, to be an atheist you got to have optimism. You can't just keep telling yourself "oh what if I'm going to hell, oh I'm such a sinner, oh I'm a bad person, etc." Call me self centered and arrogant, but I like to view myself as well, let's just say I have a high self esteem. Which kinda goes against the second commandment. Hey since you mentioned Jesus, have you ever heard of the Jefferson Bible? Thomas Jefferson took a bible and removed anything to do with the supernatural in it. He removed anything to do with angels, he removed the virgin birth, the Resurrection, etc.  He also did not believe in the Holy Trinity so he took that out as well. Basically, it's just the teaching of Jesus' morals. I thought you might be interested in it.  

 

EDIT: I'm also sick of people referring to America as a Christian nation. We are NOT a Christian nation. The Constitution makes that very clear.

Edited July 1, 2013 by AtDawnTheySquee

[Galen 1,354]

I've had so many debates about this.  I will give you that there are some holes in christianity, but there's also INSANELY compelling evidence that it's true.  But here's the other thing.  Atheists and people of logic and reason, they see things in a "prove it to me where is the evidence" kind of way.  I just let my heart lead me, and when I read the bible the teachings in it cause my heart to soar, as if everything finally makes sense, then factor in when I apply them in my life, they WORK, then factor in that I feel like I can see God working in my life when I am expecting him to and following biblical principles, and I really don't care about the holes.  I DO agree that there are troubling things in the bible I cannot explain, but I am not going to throw out all that I gain from it over some contradictions, I simply trust that it will make sense to me someday and I'm not meant to know the answers right now.  Not everyone has to be able to explain everything about what they believe to truly believe it.  It's just two different ways of looking at life.  

 

I used to have a youtube channel called symphcontroversy, it's still up I just don't upload to it.  I had soooo many debates with atheists and christians alike there... it... it killed all my willpower to debate.  If anything I just explain myself now.  Just kind of like "well this is why I see it this way, no I don't think that what you say is as cut and dry as you make it sound" but I never get into the details anymore.  I always found that to be a horrifically obnoxious merry go round.  

 

I kind of agree and disagree with this. I'll start with what I disagree so that at least this post will end in a positive note

 

What I don't agree with is that there's evidence that everything in the bible is true. For one thing, every recorded event in the bible cannot be found in any other historical record. Scholars even debate the existence of Jesus for that matter so that is also a matter of belief. That being said, if you were to ask me if I believe Jesus existed, I would be inclined to say yes. Whether he's the son of God is a different thing, however.

 

What I do agree with, on the other hand, is that the bible, like most other religious texts, have a lot to teach in the way of morality. The bible does have a lot of contradictions in that regard as well, true. Good examples of that are how to deal with criminals and what defines criminality to begin with, and a lot of that really showcases the societal norms of the times in which the original authors lived. Adultery being punishable by death back then would merely lead to a divorce now (in certain places anyways). Homosexuality being considered absolutely wrong is another one of those but I'm not gonna get into that as it's a discussion all by itself. But that's no reason to throw away everything else, as you say. Having respect for all people, regardless of alignment, to love everyone and trust them unconditionally, those are all ideals presented in many religions. On the one hand, that implies you don't necessarily need religion to learn basic moral principles, but on the other hand it also shows that you can learn basic moral principles from them just as you could anywhere else.

 

I'm agnostic btw

Edited July 1, 2013 by Freedan

[John 793]

Well, I used to be a Catholic but then I became an atheist. I was just not happy with Catholicism and I found it restrictive. (Keep in my mind I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just sharing my story). IMO, to be an atheist you got to have optimism. You can't just keep telling yourself "oh what if I'm going to hell, oh I'm such a sinner, oh I'm a bad person, etc." Call me self centered and arrogant, but I like to view myself as well, let's just say I have a high self esteem. Which kinda goes against the second commandment. Hey since you mentioned Jesus, have you ever heard of the Jefferson Bible? Thomas Jefferson took a bible and removed anything to do with the supernatural in it. He removed anything to do with angels, he removed the virgin birth, the Resurrection, etc.  He also did not believe in the Holy Trinity so he took that out as well. Basically, it's just the teaching of Jesus' morals. I thought you might be interested in it.  

 

EDIT: I'm also sick of people referring to America as a Christian nation. We are NOT a Christian nation. The Constitution makes that very clear.

 

So do Christians not belong in America?

Thomas Jefferson, although the single greatest political figure to ever have lived IMO, was not catholic and was subject to the beliefs of (what was at the time) a mainly protestant nation raised on the notion that everything in the Bible is literal.  (You could see why this would irritate him to some extent.)  Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity because he was raised with protestant beliefs that did not include belief in the Trinity.

 

Also, Jefferson wished to summarize a text of Jesus's teachings.  He didn't make the Jefferson Bible because he didn't believe in the divinity of Christ.

 

In my opinion, to be religious you must have optimism.  (Especially with all of the atheists these days bothering you and getting in your face telling you that you're wrong and that they have some sort of explanation for everything.)  You have to accept that, even with all of the great things science and technology has done for us, it cannot explain everything.  (Especially at the moment)

 

We have to stop pretending that all atheists base their beliefs off of logic and reason.  I would have to say that there are a lot of atheists who I've met that are atheists "because other people (scientists and others) are too." These people are even less logical than any religious man.

Edited July 1, 2013 by John

[Symph 103]

I kind of agree and disagree with this. I'll start with what I disagree so that at least this post will end in a positive note

 

What I don't agree with is that there's evidence that everything in the bible is true. For one thing, every recorded event in the bible cannot be found in any other historical record. Scholars even debate the existence of Jesus for that matter so that is also a matter of belief. That being said, if you were to ask me if I believe Jesus existed, I would be inclined to say yes. Whether he's the son of God is a different thing, however.

 

What I do agree with, on the other hand, is that the bible, like most other religious texts, have a lot to teach in the way of morality. The bible does have a lot of contradictions in that regard as well, true. Good examples of that are how to deal with criminals and what defines criminality to begin with, and a lot of that really showcases the societal norms of the times in which the original authors lived. Adultery being punishable by death back then would merely lead to a divorce now (in certain places anyways). Homosexuality being considered absolutely wrong is another one of those but I'm not gonna get into that as it's a discussion all by itself. But that's no reason to throw away everything else, as you say. Having respect for all people, regardless of alignment, to love everyone and trust them unconditionally, those are all ideals presented in my religions. One the one hand, that implies you don't necessarily need religion to learn basic moral principles, but on the other hand it also shows that you can learn basic moral principles from them just as you could anywhere else.

 

I'm agnostic btw

We seem to have read/heard totally different things.  I have read so many books that cited the other historical accounts of the things that happened in the bible, along with letters written at the time of christ by non christians who still acknowledged not only his existence but his miracles.  Not to mention how many ancient religious and historical writings talk about the flood and Isreal being freed from egyptian slavery.  And just like you I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just wondering what has lead you to believe there are no other historical accounts of the records in the bible.  The main historians that attest to Jesus are Flavius Josephus, and Tacitus.  As far as I know they were not christians, just historians who also confirmed he existed.  

 

But yeah I mean, I don't know how much of it is true not true, and I don't care if anyone believes it did/didn't happen.  I'm more interested in us agreeing to let each other believe what we believe if these beliefs are centered in respect and love for each other.  I find history and details to be irrelevant to how we live, which I think is the part you agree with too  

[John 793]

We seem to have read/heard totally different things.  I have read so many books that cited the other historical accounts of the things that happened in the bible, along with letters written at the time of christ by non christians who still acknowledged not only his existence but his miracles.  Not to mention how many ancient religious and historical writings talk about the flood and Isreal being freed from egyptian slavery.  And just like you I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just wondering what has lead you to believe there are no other historical accounts of the records in the bible.  The main historians that attest to Jesus are Flavius Josephus, and Tacitus.  As far as I know they were not christians, just historians who also confirmed he existed.  

 

But yeah I mean, I don't know how much of it is true not true, and I don't care if anyone believes it did/didn't happen.  I'm more interested in us agreeing to let each other believe what we believe if these beliefs are centered in respect and love for each other.  I find history and details to be irrelevant to how we live, which I think is the part you agree with too

 

While some things in the Bible can't be pinpointed, it is entirely true that the Life and Death of Jesus is well documented.  The Romans at the time had sophisticated ways of keeping track of the people under their rule.  Also, there's been many archaeological finds and relics which help to prove his existence.  If I was trying to disprove Christianity, I don't think I would attack Jesus's existence.  I'm pretty damn sure he was there.

Edited July 1, 2013 by John

[Le Kvlt Dawn 2,364]

 

 

So do Christians not belong in America?

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about people who claim that America was founded on Christian principles, even though it clearly wasn't. I mean, doesn't the first amendment violate the first three commandments? Do you see what I mean now? 

 

 

Thomas Jefferson, although the single greatest political figure to ever have lived IMO, was not catholic and was subject to the beliefs of (what was at the time) a mainly protestant nation raised on the notion that everything in the Bible is literal.  (You could see why this would irritate him to some extent.)  Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity because he was raised with protestant beliefs that did not include belief in the Trinity.

He was probably a deist, and like many founding fathers was critical of religion. He probably did believe in a higher power, he just didn't fallow other teachings in the bible.

 

 

You have to accept that, even with all of the great things science and technology has done for us, it cannot explain everything.  (Especially at the moment)

Speaking of optimism, as we progress we discover more and more things don't we? So maybe the day will come when we are capable of explaining everything, but not for a VERY LONG time.

 

 

We have to stop pretending that all atheists base their beliefs off of logic and reason.  I would have to say that there are a lot of atheists who I've met that are atheists "because other people (scientests and others) are too." These people are even less logical than any religious man.

Well isn't that their business? 

[John 793]

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about people who claim that America was founded on Christian principles, even though it clearly wasn't. I mean, doesn't the first amendment violate the first three commandments? Do you see what I mean now?

 

Yes, I was overemphasizing what you were saying because I'm sick of the people who want to remove "under God" from everything.  It was there for much of American history;  leave it alone.

 

He was probably a deist, and like many founding fathers was critical of religion. He probably did believe in a higher power, he just didn't fallow other teachings in the bible.

 

Let's be honest.  Who follows verbatim everything from the Bible?  It would be impossible.

 

Speaking of optimism, as we progress we discover more and more things don't we? So maybe the day will come when we are capable of explaining everything, but not for a VERY LONG time.

 

What I'm saying is that we are limited in what we can observe through our senses.  Maybe, but maybe not.

 

Well isn't that their business?

Of course.  I'm saying that we shouldn't act like they're the most logical people when they're beliefs are founded off of the fact that someone else intelligent has those beliefs.  What I mean is, instead of thinking it over for themselves, they choose it because they think its smarter.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Artemis
Take a little extra time to respond to each point individually and you don't have to skirt the character minimum. It's not that tedious.

[Symph 103]

While some things in the Bible can't be pinpointed, it is entirely true that the Life and Death of Jesus is well documented.  The Romans at the time had sophisticated ways of keeping track of the people under their rule.  Also, there's been many archaeological finds and relics which help to prove his existence.  If I was trying to disprove Christianity, I don't think I would attack Jesus's existence.  I'm pretty damn sure he was there.

yeah I've read alot of things talking about the archealogical and historical proofs of quite a bit of the bible.  I'm also amazed by the dead sea scrolls, that's a pretty huge piece of evidence in and of itself.  Along with the fact that so much of the bible is still preserved in it's original manuscripts and was written by different authors in different places at different times but it still reads chronologically and congruently like a story with the same tone and inflection as if it was written by one author.  All those things amaze me and proved it to ME.  If they don't prove it to someone else that's fine by me, I just don't want people thinking I believe in my faith blindly or something.  I have done alot of research and come to the conclusion that even if I can't explain everything in the bible, it's a compelling, fascinating, inspiring, and amazing book that has changed my life personally.  

[Staticboom 33]

No offense bro,

but you're blaming G-d for all of these things.  Have you ever considered that maybe G-d values freedom of choice so much that he wouldn't take it away just to prevent these things?

 

And why should the creator of the universe be subject to what you (a mere mortal) believe is right and wrong?

Nah it cool man, no offense taken. You're just protecting your beliefs.

 

I understand where your coming from, and I myself grew up as a Christian, I was baptized, went to super religious schools all that stuff. And I was always told that God was a protector, that he would rid the world of all evil, yadda yadda yadda. And yet, these things happen. For all of my soul if I had the power to do anything, since I had created everything I would be ending poverty, and killing the wicked and all that jazz.

 

And I was taught as a Christian that God cherished life (pshh) and that he loved all, so in retrospect, what are my morals should be christian beliefs and god should certainly be doing something about it.

 

I guess they put their words wrong though, because in Christianity sake, it says that god at some point drowned the whole word for the fact that he gave them free will and yet they didn't follow his will. It's bits like that, that really bug me because nowadays they tell us that it is a false metaphor, yet when it was written into the bible, it was believed to be completely true. That simply makes me lose my trust of what the bible really was, fact (and I'm going to hell) or fiction made by some psychos trying to explain back then what science can now.

 

And then it brings me to the point that there are so many other religions, who believe in their gods and their bibles and think they're the smart ones. And yet most Christians I've met laugh and think "oh so stupid, believing in something they can't prove when I have this thousand year old book here which must be true!"

It's pretty much the same as the ancient greeks with their gods.

 

I don't know what I'm getting at here. I think I'm just trying to prove I know what I'm talking about more or less and I'm not some angry rebellious teenager.

 

Or I'm protecting my beliefs. (I think both)

 

Anyway. Lets not make you think I'm starting a flame war, John. Just a discussion

[Galen 1,354]

We seem to have read/heard totally different things.  I have read so many books that cited the other historical accounts of the things that happened in the bible, along with letters written at the time of christ by non christians who still acknowledged not only his existence but his miracles.  Not to mention how many ancient religious and historical writings talk about the flood and Isreal being freed from egyptian slavery.  And just like you I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just wondering what has lead you to believe there are no other historical accounts of the records in the bible.  The main historians that attest to Jesus are Flavius Josephus, and Tacitus.  As far as I know they were not christians, just historians who also confirmed he existed.  

 

But yeah I mean, I don't know how much of it is true not true, and I don't care if anyone believes it did/didn't happen.  I'm more interested in us agreeing to let each other believe what we believe if these beliefs are centered in respect and love for each other.  I find history and details to be irrelevant to how we live, which I think is the part you agree with too

 

I suppose I worded it wrongly when I said every recorded event. It would be more accurate to say a lot of the events recorded in the bible. Like I said, I have no reason to doubt his existence, but his existence as the son of God and his miracles are something I do doubt. It's just as possible Jesus had medical knowledge beyond what was available in the holy land, and people perceived them as miracles in their individual writings due to their lack of understanding. Even now, we often call good things we don't understand as miracles when they may very well be things that can be explained by science. I'm just curious about which other historical sources mention the flood, especially when there's a lot of debate over when the event took place to begin with.

 

Personally, I think history and their details are relevant to our lifestyle, but what's important is how we deal with the history and other people's interpretations of them. Disagreements are bound to happen but what's even more important is not letting these disagreements get in the way of building trust and tolerance of other people.

 

While some things in the Bible can't be pinpointed, it is entirely true that the Life and Death of Jesus is well documented.  The Romans at the time had sophisticated ways of keeping track of the people under their rule.  Also, there's been many archaeological finds and relics which help to prove his existence.  If I was trying to disprove Christianity, I don't think I would attack Jesus's existence.  I'm pretty damn sure he was there.

 

Hence why I said I'd be inclined to say yes to the question of his existence. There's even evidence (however questionable) that Jesus studied at a Buddhist temple in India during his "lost years."

Edited July 1, 2013 by Freedan

[Le Kvlt Dawn 2,364]

(Everything is contained within the quotes) I did not bypass the character limit, the content I added is within the quote above.

Actually, I hate to tell ya but I'm one of those people who wants to remove "Under God" from the flag pledge. It wasn't there originally, it was added later because of the Red Scare. I also want to remove "In God We Trust" from our money which was also added in the 50's. Well, at least I can cross out with a Sharpie and the first amendment does allow me to that. After all Thomas Jefferson did want a "wall of separation between church and state". Oh, and what if you belong to a religion that doesn't believe in the Christian God? What if you're a Hindu or a Buddhist? I'm not trying totally anti-Christian here, I just want to even things out for everyone.

[Symph 103]

I suppose I worded it wrongly when I said every recorded event. It would be more accurate to say a lot of the events recorded in the bible. Like I said, I have no reason to doubt his existence, but his existence as the son of God and his miracles are something I do doubt. It's just as possible Jesus had medical knowledge beyond what was available in the holy land, and people perceived them as miracles in their individual writings due to their lack of understanding. Even know, we often call good things we don't understand as miracles when they may very well be things that can be explained by science. I'm just curious about which other historical sources mention the flood, especially when there's a lot of debate over when the event took place to begin with.

 

Personally, I think history and their details are relevant to our lifestyle, but what's important is how we deal with the history and other people's interpretations of them. Disagreements are bound to happen but what's even more important is not letting these disagreements get in the way of building trust and tolerance of other people.

 

 

Hence why I said I'd be inclined to say yes to the question of his existence. There's even evidence (however questionable) that Jesus studied at a Buddhist temple in India during his "lost years."

Oh ok then!  Yeah I get what you mean.  It's hard for me when debates arise.  Most of my belief is off personal experience, not things I read/heard.  I began believing when I read matthew and it just.. it like.. MADE SENSE OF EVERYTHING to me.  So then I decided I would take every principle in that book, and try my best to apply it to my life.  I rid myself of as much of what Jesus called "sin" as I could.  When I did this... stuff started happening.  I began feeling like I'd find myself at the right place at the right time, I began to feel this peace everywhere I went.  I've just.. had some crazy experiences and seen the power of living that way work and I dont' just mean like in a non supernatural way no I've experienced some "coincidences" that were just too crazy for words.  All this is why I believe.  

 

It wasn't until later that I realized the questions from non believers would come, and I should do some research to be able to back up my lifestyle.  But ultimately, the historical evidence/archaeological proof all that stuff?  I just do that to be prepared for the questions.  my belief is based on my life experiences and my inner emotions and feelings and how the bible makes me feel toward life and humanity and what I believe it's done in my life.  That's why I hate REAL debates.  Though I have to say, so far you guys are allowing me to express my beliefs more than I expected, I'm not used to this.  On youtube atheists wouldn't be this kind and open minded, they would try to corner me and disprove me and tell me I contradicted myself and even when I'd say "Look I'm not trying to convert you ok?  I just believe what I believe let it go" They would say "that's not good enough because you're furthering a harmful belief that is taking away freedoms and harming the world if you can't explain this this and this you have no right to call yourself a christian now answer my questions" etc.  It... it really reeeally was a messed up time for me.  I was full of anxiety and just.. man I hated that period of my life.  That's why I USUALLY don't talk about this stuff in depth, but the more this thread goes on the more I'm feeling ok with sharing, you guys are really.. open minded   

[John 793]

Nah it cool man, no offense taken. You're just protecting your beliefs.

 

Well, consider what I said instead of derailing.

 

I understand where your coming from, and I myself grew up as a Christian, I was baptized, went to super religious schools all that stuff. And I was always told that God was a protector, that he would rid the world of all evil, yadda yadda yadda. And yet, these things happen. For all of my soul if I had the power to do anything, since I had created everything I would be ending poverty, and killing the wicked and all that jazz.

 

I didn't go to Christian schools and my family was never super religious;  so you don't understand where I 'm coming from really.  And God is a protector, but he chooses not to interrupt free will.  I'm having trouble understanding what you mean in your last sentence.

 

And I was taught as a Christian that God cherished life (pshh) and that he loved all, so in retrospect, what are my morals should be christian beliefs and god should certainly be doing something about it.

 

So is G-d supposed to magically take all evil away from the world?  What would be the point of living then?  We would have nothing to perfect and no ways to prove ourselves.

 

I guess they put their words wrong though, because in Christianity sake, it says that god at some point drowned the whole word for the fact that he gave them free will and yet they didn't follow his will.  That's not a contradiction. It's bits like that, that really bug me because nowadays they tell us that it is a false metaphor, yet when it was written into the bible, it was believed to be completely true. That simply makes me lose my trust of what the bible really was, fact (and I'm going to hell) or fiction made by some psychos trying to explain back then what science can now.  Science can't explain everything.  You're just assuming it can because scientists are generally considered to be smart.

 

Also, many protestants aren't even following canon Christian law which belongs to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.  It sounds like you grew up around people who take the bible and interpret it in any way that makes them happy.

 

And then it brings me to the point that there are so many other religions, who believe in their gods and their bibles and think they're the smart ones.

Just because there are more than one of something doesn't mean one or all of them are automatically false.

And yet most Christians I've met laugh and think "oh so stupid, believing in something they can't prove when I have this thousand year old book here which must be true!"

It's pretty much the same as the ancient greeks.

Guess what.  The textbooks written today will someday be thousands of years old.  Just because something is old doesn't mean we should forsake it as being entirely false.

 

I don't know what I'm getting at here.  That's true  I think I'm just trying to prove I know what I'm talking about more or less and I'm not some angry rebellious teenager.

 

Or I'm protecting my beliefs. (I think both)

 

Anyway. Lets not make you think I'm starting a flame war, John. Just a discussion

You're not starting a flame war.  But you still are blaming G-d for things that happen in the world.

(All of my comments and additions to this conversation can be found appropriately marked in the quoted section above, labeled in red ink)

Edited July 1, 2013 by John

[Sheogorath 1,155]

Actually, I hate to tell ya but I'm one of those people who wants to remove "Under God" from the flag pledge. It wasn't there originally, it was added later because of the Red Scare. I also want to remove "In God We Trust" from our money which was also added in the 50's. Well, at least I can cross out with a Sharpie and the first amendment does allow me to that. After all Thomas Jefferson did want a "wall of separation between church and state". Oh, and what if you belong to a religion that doesn't believe in the Christian God? What if you're a Hindu or a Buddhist? I'm not trying totally anti-Christian here, I just want to even things out for everyone.

 

Exactly, if you give the religious a little finger they want the whole hand. You give them one monument on public ground and next thing you know they are lobbying for a theocracy and driving out all infidels from the country at the threat of death.

 

Best thing for government to do is to separate itself from all religions and be a system for the people, by the people, not by gods or by clerics.

[John 793]

Actually, I hate to tell ya but I'm one of those people who wants to remove "Under God" from the flag pledge. It wasn't there originally, it was added later because of the Red Scare. I also want to remove "In God We Trust" from our money which was also added in the 50's. Well, at least I can cross out with a Sharpie and the first amendment does allow me to that. After all Thomas Jefferson did want a "wall of separation between church and state". Oh, and what if you belong to a religion that doesn't believe in the Christian God? What if you're a Hindu or a Buddhist? I'm not trying totally anti-Christian here, I just want to even things out for everyone.

 

I would not say the pledge then.  I serve my G-d before I serve my country.

Christians are suppressed in too many ways these days.  Just let them keep the phrase.  You don't have to say it if you don't want to.

[Sheogorath 1,155]

I would not say the pledge then.  I serve my G-d before I serve my country.

Christians are suppressed in too many ways these days.  Just let them keep the phrase.  You don't have to say it if you don't want to.

Are you just trolling now or what the hell? 

Really, what is your major malfunction? How does a flag pledge in any way serves any god? Flag pledge is for the nation, for the citizens whose rights and freedom you pledge to protect and uphold, not oppress them into submission to your specific theistic views.

[John 793]

Are you just trolling now or what the hell? 

Really, what is your major malfunction? How does a flag pledge in any way serves any god? Flag pledge is for the nation, for the citizens whose rights and freedom you pledge to protect and uphold, not oppress them into submission to your specific theistic views.

 

No, I'm only partially serious.  I'm frustrated at the fact that nobody values Christianity anymore.  Its like being alone.

 

Lol, so saying "under god" makes me "oppress people into submission" when they don't have to say it.

And our big business supported government does nothing to ensure our constitutional rights these days.  Salute that?  I don't think so.

[Le Kvlt Dawn 2,364]

I would not say the pledge then. I serve my G-d before I serve my country.

Christians are suppressed in too many ways these days. Just let them keep the phrase. You don't have to say it if you don't want to.

Keep in mind you have every right not to say the pledge. And how exactly are you Christians suppressed? You make up the majority of the population -.-

 

 

Exactly, if you give the religious a little finger they want the whole hand. You give them one monument on public ground and next thing you know they are lobbying for a theocracy and driving out all infidels from the country at the threat of death.

 

Best thing for government to do is to separate itself from all religions and be a system for the people, by the people, not by gods or by clerics.

Well agreed, the problem is their sheer ignorance of knowing anything about our Constitution. They also don't realize that they're supporting the very thing our Founding Fathers were strictly against.

[Symph 103]

Exactly, if you give the religious a little finger they want the whole hand. You give them one monument on public ground and next thing you know they are lobbying for a theocracy and driving out all infidels from the country at the threat of death.

 

Best thing for government to do is to separate itself from all religions and be a system for the people, by the people, not by gods or by clerics.

I don't think this is true...  I think that you're talking about the fanatical religious right.  And they're the ones with megaphones so they're probably the ones that are being the loudest and most obnoxious, and I DO find them annoying and just... insufferable.  I don't just get flack from atheists I get it from those types of christians too.  But at the same time you can't just ignore that atheists do the same thing.  There are sensible atheists, and sensible christians, and then there are radical insane atheists, and radical insane christians.  I mean, if you want to spin it this way, I could spin it the other way.  Just like you see news stories about christians trying to impose their beliefs into the laws wrongfully by making gay marriage illegal or requiring their beliefs to be written in places they don't belong, you have atheists trying to make it illegal for us to display our beliefs on our own property or our children to pray before meals at schools I mean... it's not "christians" or "atheists" that are the problem, it's FANATICISM that's the problem.  

 

Ultimately I'm with you in the belief that christianity doesn't reflect the beliefs of america as a whole and should not be put into the laws, but on the flip side we ARE being oppressed in ways you don't pay attention to because it doesn't affect your belief system.  I just hate militant mindsets from any belief system on any level, and don't play favorites to which belief it comes from.  Why fight to get a sentence taken off the dollar or a phrase removed from the pledge?  Just give people the right to not say the pledge or any part of the pledge, and as far as the dollar... come on man it spends the same what's the big deal.  I don't know why or how it's there but does it REALLY affect you?  I'm all for preventing further intrusions upon your beliefs or lack thereof, but fighting to make the change over something so inconsequential would be time consuming, fight creating, and discord inducing, and for what?  So you don't see "in God we trust" on the dollar you're putting in a vending machine?  Just seems.. needlessly time consuming and a catalyst for unnecessary fights.   

[John 793]

Keep in mind you have every right not to say the pledge. And how exactly are you Christians suppressed? You make up the majority of the population -.-

 

 

 

Well agreed, the problem is their sheer ignorance of knowing anything about our Constitution. They also don't realize that they're supporting the very thing our Founding Fathers were strictly against.

Not suppressed by law, suppressed by mainstream society.  Everybody's an atheist;  no matter where I go.  Can't wear a fucking cross on the subway without someone harping me about how my "religion is fake." Give me a break.

 

do you know what its like to deal with THAT many quarrelsome atheists every day?  Depressing to say the least.

 

And I'm not ignorant of the constitution.  Our government doesn't recognize much of the constitution so...

Edited July 1, 2013 by John

[Sheogorath 1,155]

No, I'm only partially serious.  I'm frustrated at the fact that nobody values Christianity anymore.  Its like being alone.

 

Lol, so saying "under god" makes me "oppress people into submission" when they don't have to say it.

And our big business supported government does nothing to ensure our constitutional rights these days.  Salute that?  I don't think so.

How does "under God" oppress Muslims or Wiccans? How much would you be bothered to say "under Bodhisattva" or "under Thor"? It is oppression, clean and simple to force others to condone to one single philosophy in a nation that same time is supposed to be about freedom and democracy.

 

Christianity is respected enough for an idea, it is not ideas that need to be respected, only people deserve respect and a nation that respects its citizens, not some church is a nation vastly superior to any that follows a certain church or dogma. England follows the royal church, in Ireland government favoring one religion over other caused a war and in middle east government backing to Islam causes all the horrible cruelty and vandalism that happens there.

 

 

You in essence are sad because you are not allowed to force others into your will and to agree with you and that is horribly dishonest and immature stance.

You want to say under god in flag pledge, well you could say it even if it is not written there, that is your freedom. Not to force others to say it too.

And I'm not ignorant of the constitution.  Our government doesn't recognize much of the constitution so...

 

That alone is a proof that you indeed are ignorant of the constitution. Your government is BUILT on that constitution and it is the very core of that governments policy making.