Christian bronies: meet, greet, and mingle!

[Reading Heart 167]

Ah, this argument, it's a long one, and it goes on and on.. but let me cut it down a bit.

 

Creationism and Atheism are belief systems, aka faith's..  Intelligence Design and Darwinian Evolution are theories, use to support the various arguments on one side or other, but both are simply theories.  And part of why they are still theories, is that they are unproven, but the reason they continue to be followed by scientists is that they can find evidence for them... 

 

Of course, the matter becomes even more complicated because a lot of scientists are materialists (reject any level of spiritual reality in favor of a entirely material/sensory based reality), and secular humanists (reject the potential presence of God in existence).  This means they have a vested interest in pushing a non-theistic worldview, but then they claim to be unbiased, which is an outright lie.

 

Of course, the other side generally doesn't even claim to be unbiased, which brings them under attack from intellectuals, but, I find to be more honest.. since  anyone who claims to be unbiased is lying to you, myself included, human beings are by nature biased, some of us are better at admitting it... others don't want to.

[alpinefroggy 451]

Ah, this argument, it's a long one, and it goes on and on.. but let me cut it down a bit.

 

Creationism and Atheism are belief systems, aka faith's.. Intelligence Design and Darwinian Evolution are theories, use to support the various arguments on one side or other, but both are simply theories. And part of why they are still theories, is that they are unproven, but the reason they continue to be followed by scientists is that they can find evidence for them...

 

Of course, the matter becomes even more complicated because a lot of scientists are materialists (reject any level of spiritual reality in favor of a entirely material/sensory based reality), and secular humanists (reject the potential presence of God in existence). This means they have a vested interest in pushing a non-theistic worldview, but then they claim to be unbiased, which is an outright lie.

 

Of course, the other side generally doesn't even claim to be unbiased, which brings them under attack from intellectuals, but, I find to be more honest.. since anyone who claims to be unbiased is lying to you, myself included, human beings are by nature biased, some of us are better at admitting it... others don't want to.

AtheIsn is not a belief system. Its like calling the act of not collecting stamps a hobby.

 

Intelligent design has been proven rediculous on many fronts.

 

And evolution is far beyond a theory with some evidence. It's a scientific theory, very different from the common definition of theory, supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence. The idea though evolution is some materialistic agenda pushed by nontheistic scientists makes no sense.

 

I accept evolution myself because of the evidence presented to me. I admit I am biased biased torwards evolution and that I am an atheist. But the bias is because evolution is so full of overwhelming evidence and explanatory power that not accepting it would be perverse. But do you have to be atheist to accept it? No. Kenneth Miller, the guy in the video I linked in my above post is a premier evolutionary biologist and a devout Christian. He has led the theist side of debates as well. This guy isn't some materialistic scientist and he is destroying intelligent design

I beg to differ. The last days of the earth are imminent as we speak:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOvBj2L6r68

 

Yes, you are seeing that right. The papacy is repeating history.

So we go into the bible, and then pull out some verses that are convient to us. And then make some sweeping accusations and assumptions with very little evidence.

Edited December 5, 2015 by alpinefroggy

[Steel Accord 6,660]

If I might break up this argument to give an unabashedly all around positive thing to say, if any of you are of the movie watching persuasion, I highly recommend the Book of Eli.

 

 

Without a doubt THE best depiction of God and faith I've ever seen in a film. While other movies make God an explicit presence, even if we only see glimpses of proxies like angels, this movie is far different. It shows God by not showing Him. The world it's set in might be fantastical but nothing overtly supernatural happens. God's existence is just as much up for debate in this movie as it is in our own reality.

 

Yet I've never felt a stronger presence of God when watching a movie, not even from the Prince of Egypt, which literally codified my perception of God! In contrast with the events of Exodus, in this movie, God is mentioned by name exactly once near the end. There's only so much I can say without spoiling but the movie's story is basically a man who's guided by nothing more than faith trying to preserve the Word of God in a broken world while not letting the abuses of our faith repeat themselves.

 

Highly recommended.

[Reading Heart 167]

Alright, let's address your first statement, that atheism is not a belief system.. I guess we're going to have to better define belief system for you, in this case, so, let's grab a few thoughts from some folks who have studied the matter, some folks with actual degrees in the matter.

 

http://www.vub.ac.be/CLEA/FOS/cfp/what-are-belief-systems.pdf

http://study.com/academy/lesson/belief-systems-definition-types-quiz.html

 

I'm going to quote the second here...  

 

Definition

Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? When you vote, do you register as a Democrat or a Republican? When it comes to human nature, do you believe that we are inherently selfish or selfless? These are all great examples of different types of belief systems.

A belief system is an ideology or set of principles that helps us to interpret our everyday reality. This could be in the form of religion, political affiliation, philosophy, or spirituality, among many other things. These beliefs are shaped and influenced by a number of different factors. Our knowledge on a certain topic, the way we were raised, and even peer pressure from others can help to create and even change our belief systems. The convictions that come from these systems are a way for us to make sense of the world around us and to define our role within it.

 

By this definition, Atheism is a belief system, it's more of a philosophical one then a spiritual one, since it rejects the concept of a divinity, but rejecting the existence of divinity is not the same as refusing to collect stamps.. it is more of the level of refusing to involve oneself in sending or receiving mail.. but it remains a philosophical belief system, by the above definition.  

------------------------------------

Claim number 2... that intelligent design has been proven ridiculous on multiple levels..

 

http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/100ScientistsAd.pdf

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-world-famous-chemist-tells-the-truth-theres-no-scientist-alive-today-who-understands-macroevolution/

 

Proven is too strong a word.... you can say that Darwinian Evolution has answers for the issues of Intelligent design and counterarguments to it's arguments, but you can't say proven without being intellectually dishonest... to yourself if no one else.  Your counterarguments.. and the one's for intelligent design for that matter, remain theoretical, and, without a time machine to actually look into the matter, remain theory.   So you can say there are theoretical responses to the arguments of intelligent design, but if you claim it to be proven, your lying to yourself and others.. 

 

And to delve further into the matter, I don't have any issues with the concept of evolution with regards to a tiger and cat being related, shoot, with regards to the dog, we have dogs the size of teacups and as large as a mastif.. but they remain genetically canines.  So I can believe a lynx, a house cat, a tiger, a lion and a leopard are all related.. I can also believe a fox, a wolf, a dog and a coyote are related.  I can believe a butterfly will naturally select for red wings over blue in the right circumstances.  

 

But when you start to tell me that the tiger and the cat both came from a fish long ago, which is what I regard as the actual Darwinian Theory, I simply can't get behind it.  First, your evolutionary process then has to select for a positive mutation, not just in a single individual, but in a large enough species selection to produce genetic diversity, because we have proof today, that without that genetic diversity, a species will not survive..  I've heard the introduction of energy theory, the non-closed system, and others, they remain just ideas of maybe how this can work.. but they arn't one's that anyone can prove.  Here's what I need to believe in Macro-evolution.. take a fish, any fish..  and using genetic engineering, produce a cat from it.. if the Macro-evolution theory is correct, it should be doable.. but no biologist has done this.

 

Now, I don't even have a problem with the idea that the earth may be billions of years old, my clear bias, which I admit too, comes to Genesis 1:1 'In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth' Regardless of if I embrace old earth creationism, young earth creationism, or the the process used was evolutionary, or the claim that Genesis 1 is symbolic, poetic or literal, and I've considered all of these positions (and presently don't care, what matters is that God did it, I've other concerns to focus my time on)... there is nothing that will convince me to step off the position of 'The Divine existed before time and space, and is subject to neither.. and everything that is is because of Divine action'.  

--------------------------

Third.. you took this to mean more then I suggested:  

 

Of course, the matter becomes even more complicated because a lot of scientists are materialists (reject any level of spiritual reality in favor of a entirely material/sensory based reality), and secular humanists (reject the potential presence of God in existence).  This means they have a vested interest in pushing a non-theistic worldview, but then they claim to be unbiased, which is an outright lie.

 

And evolution is far beyond a theory with some evidence. It's a scientific theory, very different from the common definition of theory, supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence. The idea though evolution is some materialistic agenda pushed by nontheistic scientists makes no sense.
 

 

Not what I said at all, you took it to mean that the I was saying a materialistic agenda was being pushed, I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that their biased to look at it this way.  Now, that said, I do think there were a few holes in the above video, and area's that it covers inadequately..  or fails to properly cover.  

 

As to ID not being a scientific theory: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1548

 

---------------------------

Actually, I have  questions for you, that if your completely honest, can not be answered at all today.. you can argue that someday they will be, but at the present, we don't even have a way to measure some of it, because we can't pin it down... and I can argue that they can't be at all... and it's a coin flip as to who is right.

 

What is gravity?  

• Not what is it's effects, or how it works.. what is it?  This problem is why Quantum Physics and General Relativity have yet to meet, though it's been suggested that the answer comes in my next question.

What are Dark Matter and Dark Energy?

• http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/dark_energy/de-what_is_dark_energy.php
• http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/space/dark-matter/
• A Grand total of what we can see and study of the universe, is about 4% to 5%. 
• Supposedly it's everywhere, and necessary for the universe to exist, it holds everything together based on what science presently tells us.. but we can't actually pin it down?  Hmm, sounds strangely like the idea of 'For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things' Can you prove to me that Dark Matter and Dark Energy aren't some indication of the existence of the will of the Divine?  I'm not say it is, one way or another, I'm saying, can you prove it isn't?  Since we can't even pin it down, you can't say one way or the other.. it could be, or it couldn't be, we come to the coin flip

--------------------------

Now.. to the other matter, discussed by Jonny in the previous post.

As to the idea of the end of times being upon us.. I can believe we stand in the season, but the day and the hour is unknown.  If it is, then there are more things to come, that will take years, and it will become clear to us in due time.

[alpinefroggy 451]

 

------------------------------------

Claim number 2... that intelligent design has been proven ridiculous on multiple levels..

 

http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/100ScientistsAd.pdf

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-world-famous-chemist-tells-the-truth-theres-no-scientist-alive-today-who-understands-macroevolution/

 

Proven is too strong a word.... you can say that Darwinian Evolution has answers for the issues of Intelligent design and counterarguments to it's arguments, but you can't say proven without being intellectually dishonest... to yourself if no one else.  Your counterarguments.. and the one's for intelligent design for that matter, remain theoretical, and, without a time machine to actually look into the matter, remain theory.   So you can say there are theoretical responses to the arguments of intelligent design, but if you claim it to be proven, your lying to yourself and others.. 

 

And to delve further into the matter, I don't have any issues with the concept of evolution with regards to a tiger and cat being related, shoot, with regards to the dog, we have dogs the size of teacups and as large as a mastif.. but they remain genetically canines.  So I can believe a lynx, a house cat, a tiger, a lion and a leopard are all related.. I can also believe a fox, a wolf, a dog and a coyote are related.  I can believe a butterfly will naturally select for red wings over blue in the right circumstances.  

 

But when you start to tell me that the tiger and the cat both came from a fish long ago, which is what I regard as the actual Darwinian Theory, I simply can't get behind it.  First, your evolutionary process then has to select for a positive mutation, not just in a single individual, but in a large enough species selection to produce genetic diversity, because we have proof today, that without that genetic diversity, a species will not survive..  I've heard the introduction of energy theory, the non-closed system, and others, they remain just ideas of maybe how this can work.. but they arn't one's that anyone can prove.  Here's what I need to believe in Macro-evolution.. take a fish, any fish..  and using genetic engineering, produce a cat from it.. if the Macro-evolution theory is correct, it should be doable.. but no biologist has done this.

 

Now, I don't even have a problem with the idea that the earth may be billions of years old, my clear bias, which I admit too, comes to Genesis 1:1 'In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth' Regardless of if I embrace old earth creationism, young earth creationism, or the the process used was evolutionary, or the claim that Genesis 1 is symbolic, poetic or literal, and I've considered all of these positions (and presently don't care, what matters is that God did it, I've other concerns to focus my time on)... there is nothing that will convince me to step off the position of 'The Divine existed before time and space, and is subject to neither.. and everything that is is because of Divine action'.  

--------------------------

Third.. you took this to mean more then I suggested:  

 

 

 

 

Not what I said at all, you took it to mean that the I was saying a materialistic agenda was being pushed, I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that their biased to look at it this way.  Now, that said, I do think there were a few holes in the above video, and area's that it covers inadequately..  or fails to properly cover.  

 

As to ID not being a scientific theory: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1548

 

---------------------------

Actually, I have  questions for you, that if your completely honest, can not be answered at all today.. you can argue that someday they will be, but at the present, we don't even have a way to measure some of it, because we can't pin it down... and I can argue that they can't be at all... and it's a coin flip as to who is right.

 

What is gravity?  

• Not what is it's effects, or how it works.. what is it?  This problem is why Quantum Physics and General Relativity have yet to meet, though it's been suggested that the answer comes in my next question.

What are Dark Matter and Dark Energy?

• http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/dark_energy/de-what_is_dark_energy.php
• http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/space/dark-matter/
• A Grand total of what we can see and study of the universe, is about 4% to 5%. 
• Supposedly it's everywhere, and necessary for the universe to exist, it holds everything together based on what science presently tells us.. but we can't actually pin it down?  Hmm, sounds strangely like the idea of 'For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things' Can you prove to me that Dark Matter and Dark Energy aren't some indication of the existence of the will of the Divine?  I'm not say it is, one way or another, I'm saying, can you prove it isn't?  Since we can't even pin it down, you can't say one way or the other.. it could be, or it couldn't be, we come to the coin flip

--------------------------

Now.. to the other matter, discussed by Jonny in the previous post.

As to the idea of the end of times being upon us.. I can believe we stand in the season, but the day and the hour is unknown.  If it is, then there are more things to come, that will take years, and it will become clear to us in due time.

 

Anyone one today with a lab and short amount of time can never make a tiger go to a bird or anything of that sort.  Of course its ridiculous.  Evolution doesn't work the way you want it to because such a change would disprove evolution and its idea of slow gradual changes over time.  Changes like that one take hundreds of thousands to millions of years to complete.  We don't necessarily have directly observe something to know that it happened.  Do you think a police officer investigating a murder does.  Do you think they put together evidence for a murder and then decide to throw it out because they weren't there to see the murder therefore we can't draw conclusions?  Layers of rock show distinct progressions of eras of life to the next with small changes through long periods of time.  Homologous structures within fossils and life today show common ancestry within.  Radiometric dating dates the fossils and this can be used to predict where we can find fossils in rock of similar age to other fossils.  Missing links in the fossil records that coincide with the gaps in time between drastic changes in life have been found time and again.  Should we throw all that out because we weren't there? 

 

We need to define what is a theory and what is a scientific theory they are very different from each other and I see that there is a confusion in your posts.  A common everyday theory is a conjecture attempting to explain something. A scientific theory is, "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."

 

Intelligent design was a theory developed to challenge evolutionary theory but it failed miserably.  It made predictions about why living things change over time as well as the nature of biological systems.  These predictions failed and the theory doesn't hold up to the evidence.  You are right proven is too strong of a word in either direction but for all intensive purposes intelligent design is far from the right theory and evolutionary theory thus far has been  amazing in its ability to predict, explain and makes sense of the things we observe about changes in living things over time. In the court case Kitzmiler vs Dover. In the peer reviewed literature and beyond ID has not help up.  Come back many years in the future when ID can get itself into the scientific textbooks and then a discussion on its validity and integrity as a scientific theory can be discussed.  

 

If intelligent design ever was a scientific theory it is a very poor one.

 

As an answer to your last questions.  I dont know.  They can't be answered right now and nobody knows the answer.  But why do we need to invoke god or something divine in what we dont know.  Civilizations in the past have thought that the weather was caused by gods that were angry at them.  Now a farmer who wants to know the whether doesn't do a raindance and make offerings.  That is obviously stupid.  What I am trying to say is that just because we dont know what something is yet doesn't mean we should invoke god at all.  You can't make conclusions like that without some evidence and since we dont know anything about it yet and you are not working on trying to figure out what it is it is useless to speculate.  God of the gaps gets us no where and has never gotten us anywhere.

 

How could atheism be even that?  Atheists dont believe anything.  They base what they think off what makes sense for them independent of their lack of belief.  Atheists disagree in many places socially, fiscally, and morally but they all simply do not believe in anything.  You can't base a belief system on a lack of belief.

Edited December 5, 2015 by alpinefroggy

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Guys, do we want the mods to come down on this thread when it's actually managed to stay under notice and be a safe refuge to those of faith even within a largely secular fandom?

[Dark Horse 12,922]

I have to agree guys. Please remember that this is not a thread for debating against the Christian religion. It is and remains a thread for those of the Christian faith to, as the title says; Meet, Greet and Mingle. While I appreciate there are those who may have differing opinions to share on the subject, I do not believe this is the thread for it and such arguments will likely only lead to the topic being reported and potentially closed for cleanup and/or warrant further action by the staff.

 

So please, remember to keep on topic.

[Zach TheDane 234]

Please do stay on track guys. Again, this isn't a debate pit. I love discussion as much as the next guy, but don't use this thread as a place to try to prove or disprove the legitimacy of Christianity. This thread has been fantastically friendly, so be responsible and don't ruin that. Thank you.

[Reading Heart 167]

I apologize, I didn't intend to get the discussion so far into left field, or to derail the thread, if you want to continue this one, alpine, send me a pm, otherwise, I'm just to going to let it go.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Reading Heart

[alpinefroggy 451]

Please do stay on track guys. Again, this isn't a debate pit. I love discussion as much as the next guy, but don't use this thread as a place to try to prove or disprove the legitimacy of Christianity. This thread has been fantastically friendly, so be responsible and don't ruin that. Thank you.

 

Agreed the discussion here should end.  I was just trying to point things out.

 

I apologize, I didn't intend to get the discussion so far into left field, or to derail the thread, if you want to continue this one, alpine, send me a pm, otherwise, I'm just to going to let it go.

 

Nah, I am good.  You can if you want but it isn't my place to try and come in here as an atheist and derail the Christianity thread.  I dont want to challenge Christianity here as I respect your faith. I wanted to challenge your perceptions and what you think about evolution and atheism though because I thought it would lead to influencing your views I find a little disngenious.  Thank you for the thought provoking discussion

[I used to be a stranger 7,993]

This post has been redacted by the author.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Blue

[Lithophila 291]

Matthew 18:3

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

 

Hold on. I am confused?  

Edited December 6, 2015 by Lithophila

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Matthew 18:3

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

 

Hold on. I am confused?  

 

Funny but context is everything. There are some people that need to grow up, some people that need to rediscover some innocence, and still others that need to find the balance.

[Reading Heart 167]

Matthew 18:3

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

 

Hold on. I am confused?  

 

Like Steel Accord says, context is everything here, so let's look at the surrounding verses..  if you look at Matthew, the disciples are asking Jesus, who is greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.. Jesus responds by turning the question on it's head, and making it a matter of humility.  

 

Corinthians chapter 13, has Paul talking about love, what love is, and why it matters more then any spiritual gifts and then moves into talking about what is happening in the spiritual realm when we pass though death into heaven before God.

 

Corinthians chapter 11, Paul is taking about setting an example for others, and if you look a little further back, two verses doing everything to the glory of God.

 

So what is really the point being made here?  Humility, Love, Obedience, 

[Lithophila 291]

True.

 

I've been checking Richard Carrier's views though. Although i don't agree with them because its just trying too hard i think, i gotta admit atleast he does try to give reasonable points. From what i know is that.

 

The apostles in the epistles never says "I heard this from Jesus or something, or well thats how Apostle Paul describes it". He usually says "I recieved it from Christ, and Christ also appeared to the other Apostles etc" in the epistles. Now don't mention acts since its ment to be more biographical and not literaly eyewitness telling stuff .

 

But basically from what Carrier's conclusion is that Jesus was first thought of as a celestial high priest or something, i guess the ideal is from Ascension of Isaiah and Daniel 7:13-14 and 26-27. But basically the biological stuff etc are never mentioned til the 4 gospels are written.

 

So i think his arguments are pretty interesting. However i find it just a little too try hard for me to accept it. But i admire his atempt atleast. Atleast the reason he doesn't believe in this is because he finds the evidence poor. Although he also explains why the "Jesus myth theory" hasn't worked is because of poor bad information on it.

 

But either way. It was interesting. But beliefs are nice :grin2:

Like generally i have been trying like this to disprove. And yet.... it just doesn't go further to say the least. Since that guy was so zealous to die for his faith and stuff. So i just believe simply due to what must more or less be true in my views.

 

Edit: Also... Prayers to saints. I've been understanding this to not be idolatry in catholic christianity, but as a way for saints to deliver the message to god, since they are the closest to him from earthly to the divine or something.

 

Either way its interesting to read on some stuff. So its more a way of honoring more or less. Which can be taken the wrong way at first.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Lithophila

[Reading Heart 167]

Generally, if your interested in that sort of questions, I suggest looking up the field of christian apologetics..  in fact, here's one on the internet you might find interesting to read: http://christianthinktank.com/

[Sunwalker 981]

Matthew 18:3

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

 

Hold on. I am confused?

It means to be innocent and pure like a child in terms of morality, and be wise and mature like an adult in terms of maturity.

 

 

so something awesome happened a couple days ago.

 

So ive been borrowing a bible from a friend at my salt group (that's what our collage church group is called) cuz crazily i do not own one, and this last Thursday the group wanted me to make sure that i could make it to service so i did. when i arrived Parker (the guy that i was borrowing the book from) was super exited to see me and i was like... can i help you? and he pulls out a brand new bible and hands it to me. not only was i extatic, but it was like a reeeeally nice leather one and he even got my name engraved in the leather.

 

that's not the depth of the story however. ive come to know this guy quite well in group and the thing that made me stop and think was that i new for a fact that he had no money to even do something like this. in fact in group this last Monday he told us that after paying for books for school and for new parts in his truck that he had $.68 left in his bank account, and he works little to no hours alongside collage to try and live off of.

 

knowing this it realy gives that gift a whole deeper meaning to me. and the look on his face when he gave it to me was extadic! i dont know how he was able to get that for me, but now, i will always cherish that gift, and maby one day i can do the same for someone i will come to know in the future.

That is a really beautiful and heartwarming story .

 

It reminds me of that gospel passage of the widow in the temple. While the scribes were donating loads of money, she only gave a coin or two. But in the end it counted more because she was giving that by heart, instead of for the sake of being well seen by others (i.e., vanity), also she had to make an effort to give from the little she had instead of from the excess.

 

Your friend is like that widow

 

 

Hello

 

Not a convert. But i plan on converting to Roman Catholicism, or well to be more specific, to attend to a mass to see how it works like, but generally i am a Christian believer. I was wondering what your reasons for finding your way to Christianity was? For me it was because i tried to disprove it many times, but failed to do so. My arguments just didn't hold up. So i just gave up and accepted this religion into my heart. Although i am not 100% at the practice level yet, i try to understand it more.

 

Looking forward to Christmas soon aswell

An interesting thing I have noticed is that I noticed is that I have never meet anyone who got converted because logical and rational arguments for the faith, as good and convincing they can be (perhaps you are the first one I know about ?.

 

What usually happens is that this knowledge comes afterwards, or at most such arguments remove some barriers that were preventing people from reaching God. But in any case, the conversion needed to happen first in the heart. This makes sense for me, as even the demons in Hell know that God exists, so obviously just having knowledge of God's existence isn't the enough.

 

About what led be to Christianity? I think that it would be more accurate to say that Christianity was led to me. In my teen years I grew distant from faith, though I never really stopped believing. What made me grow closer were people and circumstances I met, which I think that were arranged by God's providence.

 

They gave me the chance of having a better understanding of the faith and dispelled some misconceptions, it starting making more sense than what I thought before. This removed an intellectual and moral barrier, and from that point onwards I gradually grew closer to God.

 

 

Edit: Also... Prayers to saints. I've been understanding this to not be idolatry in catholic christianity, but as a way for saints to deliver the message to god, since they are the closest to him from earthly to the divine or something.

 

Praying for saints is not really that different of asking for friends to pray for you, or you praying by yourself for other people. What the prayer for saints actually means is you asking them for praying to God for you. Ultimately it is God Himself the one who replies prayers. They are much closer to God than what we are, that is why one might ask for their prayers.

 

It is like the passage of the wedding at Cana, Jesus' first miracle. It wasn't even yet the time for him to start his public life, but he honored the request of his mother Mary, and turned water into wine. He couldn't say "no" to his own mother

Edited December 7, 2015 by Sunwalker

[Lithophila 291]

Praying for saints is not really that different of asking for friends to pray for you, or you praying by yourself for other people. What the prayer for saints actually means is you asking them for praying to God for you. Ultimately it is God Himself the one who replies prayers. They are much closer to God than what we are, that is why one might ask for their prayers.

 

It is like the passage of the wedding at Cana, Jesus' first miracle. It wasn't even yet the time for him to start his public life, but he honored the request of his mother Mary, and turned water into wine. He couldn't say "no" to his own mother

That's interesting. But sometimes i feel catholics literally believe the saints live in those statues. Which in epistles of Paul said "God does not dwell in temples". I am just wondering what catholics responds to that. Or if there are any verse that says god is in stuff that for his divine purpose or something.

 

Ah never mind. I found it ^^.

 

Thanks either way for being so kind to answer.

 

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/1-7.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/40.htm

 

Also Revelation 5:8 says the saints take their prayers up to god. And then interceding stuff existed "Romans 8:27"

So its not so far fetched as i thought to be honest at first

Edited December 7, 2015 by Lithophila

[Zach TheDane 234]

Matthew 18:3

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

 

Hold on. I am confused?  

Well the first two verses you have there are talking about entirely different subjects.  The context of Matthew 18:3 was that Jesus was telling his disciples the only way to enter the kingdom of heaven was to recognize their helplessness before God and come to Him in sincere faith and humility like a child would.  1 Corinthians 13 is talking about spiritual gifts and love in the church, and is arguably referencing the return of Christ.  I'm not sure what the confusion is about 1 Corinthians 11:1 is, though.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

That's interesting. But sometimes i feel catholics literally believe the saints live in those statues.

 

Just speaking as one, no I don't think St. Patrick is IN the statue of St. Patrick. What lead you to think such? 

[Lithophila 291]

Just speaking as one, no I don't think St. Patrick is IN the statue of St. Patrick. What lead you to think such? 

Not saying all catholics think that. But let me just give a video clip example of the reaction when somebody dropped a Saint Statue.

Now. Some may argue that catholics just respect holy objects in general. But either way, i believe its not idol worship. Its just that i am a little unused to this sort of tradition. But Paul the Apostle says keep the stuff we taught you from his authentic letters.

 

Philippians 4:8-9

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

 

Its from the protestant version, but it doesn't differ in the catholic bible i believe ^^.

So more or less i am sorry if i have raddled. Basically to be more secure in my belief i like to question sometimes.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Lithophila

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Not saying all catholics think that. But let me just give a video clip example of the reaction when somebody dropped a Saint Statue.

Now. Some may argue that catholics just respect holy objects in general. But either way, i believe its not idol worship. Its just that i am a little unused to this sort of tradition. But Paul the Apostle says keep the stuff we taught you from his authentic letters.

 

Philippians 4:8-9

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

 

Its from the protestant version, but it doesn't differ in the catholic bible i believe ^^.

So more or less i am sorry if i have raddled. Basically to be more secure in my belief i like to question sometimes.

 

No you didn't rattle me at all, I was just wondering what gave rise to such a notion. I just want to know why people think the things they do, whether true or not. It's the same reason my nationality comes up so often in conversation with my friends, much as I consciously try to downplay it. I welcome all cultures and ways of life so it just strikes me as novel when it's my religion (or sect in this case) being viewed from the outside looking in.

 

Honestly I didn't know the Protestant Bible was any different even theoretically, I thought we were both looking at the same text just interpreting them differently.

Speaking of Catholicism though, I highly recommend this youtube channel to all the Catholic bronies here called "Rome Reports." It's a constant source of updates on the Pope's sermons and other news in the church, the channel even comes in different languages.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Lithophila 291]

Oh but speaking of

 

 

No you didn't rattle me at all, I was just wondering what gave rise to such a notion. I just want to know why people think the things they do, whether true or not. It's the same reason my nationality comes up so often in conversation with my friends, much as I consciously try to downplay it. I welcome all cultures and ways of life so it just strikes me as novel when it's my religion (or sect in this case) being viewed from the outside looking in.

 

Honestly I didn't know the Protestant Bible was any different even theoretically, I thought we were both looking at the same text just interpreting them differently.

Well the main message is basically there, even if some may argue slight differences in them. But aslong as you have "Jesus, believe and you will be saved. The typical sins you should avoid, pray for forgiveness" then you are basically a christian just based on that. Its more or less arguing what is the best way to believe? Which i respond to that it doesn't matter so much aslong as you just believe what is said in this cases ^^.

 

Well i think some may argue that people in the past had some better understanding on those ancient texts than what we have now. So that might explain why catholic bible may not be as literal to the greek or something. For example i think King James Bible does a much better job at being more literal to hebrew and greek than the NIV version. Atleast when i compared some words. But even so, the main message is still written there. No questions about it ^^. I also heard some compared all manuscripts of the new testament that existed of the canon stuff we have today and its still the same(with just some slight changes, but basically untouched of the main message). But yeah. I believe the way to more or less understand faith is research and trying to understand it. That way people may know god more that way.

 

I am just kinda glad i made my decision as i did though . Although i try to not be arrogant, because thats the thing i wanna avoid. But believing and praises are a good reminder. Although i believe personally that the catholic faith seems to be a good way to go. I didn't go this sunday, bad weather lightning. But next mass... i have to go that time!!!  

Edited December 7, 2015 by Lithophila

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

Well i think some may argue that people in the past had some better understanding on those ancient texts than what we have now. So that might explain why catholic bible may not be as literal to the greek or something. For example i think King James Bible does a much better job at being more literal to hebrew and greek than the NIV version.

 

I say hindsight is 20/20.

 

 

 

I am just kinda glad i made my decision as i did though .

 

What decision is that? 

[Lithophila 291]

 

I say hindsight is 20/20.

What's that?

 

What decision is that? 

To convert to the Christian faith. I left Christianity at the age of 15 because i didn't feel like a Christian. And i just assumed it wasn't true. It was when i studied the monotheistic faiths, in terms of archeaological, theological and all that stuff that i realised Christianity is true. So i am just glad that i can just believe it due to the fact that i simply cannot disprove it. It also removed the fear of death in me, because i know i will eventually perish either way. But God however lives forever.