Thinking about Fluttershy

[Sentienthydra 52]

Could Fluttershy stand to be a little less kind? I'd lie to have a little ramble on that line

 

I know this sound like a silly question, 'Of course not' you cry 'No such think as too much kindness' you say. But are we so sure that its entirely healthy for both body and mind?

 

We've seen examples where her kind attitude has seen her through hard times; reforming Discord, taming the Manticore and Harry the Bear to name but a few. Numerous and effective these points may be, but they fail to convey the failures that her overly kind attitude has caused. 'A Bird in the hoof' episode shows her kindness leading her to criminal activity, In 'Putting your Hoof down' we can see that her kind attitude forces her to overreact when it slips, turning her from friend to shut in over the course of a single day.

 

And the you must consider her animals. She must mean well, but budgets must be tight at her animal-shelter cottage, with dozens (if nt hundreds) of pets, animal aquaintances and friends visiting nigh on constantly. Where she gets the bits to support herself has never been shown (though I'd assume Fluttershy would never go hungry, what  with her animal friends to help her forage.)

 

One particular animal, the infamous angel bunny, has shown clear signs of aggressive beaviour, brought on by his keepers incessant coddling.

 

Indeed, the most recent episode shows that all of Fluttershy's animals are capable of serious aggression when she leaves, the various critters all prepared (After less than a day's abscence) to attack and subdue Rainbow Dash, with designs on her delicious flesh.

 

 

hmm.... Delicious Pony Steak *Drool*

 

 

Sorry... Sorry.. Hydra instincts.

 

In any case, Fluttershy's kind attitude has repeatedly gotten the poor dear in trouble, with her shy nature and pacifism showing through as meek acceptance.

 

That said, she has been been improving, standing up to even a god of chaos in defence of her friends.

 

Thank you for reading another of my random rambles. This one has been written while drunk, so I apologize in advance for any spelling and/or grammar issues.

[Treble Bolt 1,122]

I don't think we should take the season finale into speculation since that episode was an extreme exaggeration of the situations each of the Mane 5 were in (Seriously Pinkie couldn't have killed all the trees at Sweet Apple Acres in less than a day!)....

 

I think she has grown as a character.  It's especially noticeable in Season 2.

I think her kindness and passivity go hand in hand.  And if you think about it, she isn't any more kind than the other ponies of the Mane 6.  She just goes out of her way for animals, and what seems like "overt kindness" is her passivity and inability to stick up for herself. 

I think the truth of her kindness shows in the garden with Discord.  Trusting and believing in her friends while believing they trust and believe in her is true friendship and kindness, even when there are times (especially with RD) that trust can be broken (look at RD's and the others reactions to Fluttershy in Dragonshy of Season 1 as a good example). 

 

In my eyes, she is a very complex character, probably the most complex and diverse of the Mane 6.  She has shown the most personality and greatest inner growth of all the ponies, and it's obvious that there's still room for her to grow too (all the characters still have room).

[Zygen 6,066]

Well idk, I don't really think so personally, i think its totally fine for her to be kind really. But it could be me being biased as a Fluttershy fan and also a bit of an "Overly kind" person.

 

So I guess if being "Overly kind" is a bad and possible thing then well I've got my own set of issues to .

[poniesforfun 716]

Who said being kind is the best way to go in life? The other ponies get into trouble because of their element as well like Pinkie Pie thought she can have more fun making duplicates of herself finds out that wasn't so fun, Rarity couldn't tell Fluttershy she was jealous of her status when she became a photo model because it wasn't very noble to do so. The Elements of Harmony is just that, they're characteristics to making friends but not elements to solve practical problems.

[Wingnut 6,994]

Another day, another pony question, huh Hydra? I guess you'll go through the rest of the Mane 6 over the next few days. Anyway, I was all set to write an in-depth response to but another relative newcomer summed up almost perfectly what I was about to say.

 

 

I think her kindness and passivity go hand in hand. And if you think about it, she isn't any more kind than the other ponies of the Mane 6. She just goes out of her way for animals, and what seems like "overt kindness" is her passivity and inability to stick up for herself. I think the truth of her kindness shows in the garden with Discord. Trusting and believing in her friends while believing they trust and believe in her is true friendship and kindness, even when there are times (especially with RD) that trust can be broken (look at RD's and the others reactions to Fluttershy in Dragonshy of Season 1 as a good example).

 

In my eyes, she is a very complex character, probably the most complex and diverse of the Mane 6. She has shown the most personality and greatest inner growth of all the ponies, and it's obvious that there's still room for her to grow too (all the characters still have room).

 

That was very well put, Treble. When somebody poses questions about Fluttershy, it usually falls on me to answer them in this kind of concise but detailed fashion. I don't know if you consider yourself a big Fluttershy fan or not, but you definitely understand her better than most folks. It's always nice to meet someone else who gets her. But since Flutters is MY favorite pony, I'm going to say a few more words.

 

To know Fluttershy is to understand her greatest irony. She has a tremendous amount of heart but her deeply rooted fears prevent it from showing. Her overruling desire is to be kind to animals as well as other ponies. But her extreme shyness also tempers the way she interacts with fellow ponies. Unlike ponies or other sapient beings, animals don't laugh at, judge, or ridicule anyone. That's why Fluttershy is truly outgoing, happy, and free when she is with them. Despite Fluttershy's rapport with animals, she still has to be very kind, patient, and gentle with them to retain their trust. It is also true that Angel's seemingly mean spirited acts towards her are his way of trying to toughen her up a bit.

 

All that said, Fluttershy will stand up for her friends and what she believes in when it counts. Make no mistake about that. I've written extensively on Fluttershy in my blog. If anybody wants to see it, feel free to take a look. http://mlpforums.com/blog/587-wingnuts-coffee-house/

[Dev 251]

I wouldn't mistake her passive nature and tolerance for kindness, because she already DOES have kindness. That IS her element, after all. It has gotten her into trouble, for instance, being overly tolerant whilst still trying to be nice and kind to other ponies. But in answer to your question, no,

 

If she was less kind, she would kinda just be a bitch, unhappy, would make other ponies unhappy, etc. No, Fluttershy shouldn't be less kind at all, what are you thinking, stahp.

[Sentienthydra 52]

Thanks for the glorious responses and wonderful discussion  , I love everyone on this forum, especially the Fluttershy fans (I count myself among you, but recent event have made me doubt my allegiance)

[poniesforfun 716]

The less Fluttershy fans the more I have her for myself. Soon she will be all mine, I tell you all mine mwahahahahahahahaahaa!!!!

 

[Bhending the Rules 697]

The less Fluttershy fans the more I have her for myself. Soon she will be all mine, I tell you all mine mwahahahahahahahaahaa!!!!

 

 

Never. Sorry, but there will always be at least two people claiming Fluttershy as a favorite.

 

Back to the main point, I need to address something specific: I kinda doubt that Angel's personality traits were brought on by Fluttershy being too kind. Angel very much strikes me as the sort of character that would make anyone's life difficult, just for teh lulz.

[OtakuFox 9]

I too thought Fluttershy coulda been a little less of a super kind pushover. Honestly though, The Stare balanced everything out for me. Gave her a bit of much needed power, even though you only really see it once.

 

I have to agree that the "assertiveness training" episode could have carried over a bit. I guess that's why I love anime so much, because the character progression actually keeps and doesn't reset per episode like your standard cartoon.

 

[Treble Bolt 1,122]

I agree with you OtakuFox.  Many western cartoons just 'reset' the characters in every episode, especially the classics with Disney and Warner Brothers.  Japanese anime seems to focus on character progression and FIM is one of the few western cartoons to do the same.  I mean just look at Twilight and her teleportation spell from the second episode of the series to the first episode of Season 3 (the best, clearest example there is I believe). Though, it seems to me that Twilight's personality does not grow near as much as her magic ability does, and that makes her overall growth seem more concrete.  Fluttershy's is a more subtle growth, and not seen very much at all in Season 1 or most of Season 2 until 'Putting Your Hoof Down.'  And from there on 'til the end of the season, it is much more clear (Look at her actions in the intro of 'Dragon Quest' for the best example).  In 'Hurricane Fluttershy,' the poor thing has to tackle another fault within her, not so much assertiveness as it is believing in herself despite what others say.  One episode focuses on an 'external' flaw (how she is able to interact with others) and the other focuses on an internal flaw (her self-esteem and her self-confidence).  It seems to me no other character in the series to date has had to deal with such a deep internal flaw.  I could say Applejack in 'The Last Round-up' but that did not seem pride based, more so self-disappointment when others put too much faith into her (for money and such), if they didn't put her on a pedestal like that in the beginning, she would not have done what she did. Can't think of anything Pinkie Pie related offhand, besides anything responsibility related (which is external, in terms of how she deals with others since she does take responsibility in 'Too Many Pinkie's' but with all the clones, no one notices.  Rarity, uh..can't think of anything for her, and Rainbow Dash...well she did not get it even in the 'Mysterious Mare-Do-Well' so her narcissism is still a problem.  The only other character to have a deep internal flaw is Spike, but his greed has more to do with his inherent dragon nature than it is something he will grow through (he will always be battling that instinct). 

Maybe I'm just yammering, but I hope I make some sense.  I'm just trying to explain why Fluttershy's character development is deeper than the rest, kindness element aside...

[Stellafera 3,836]

I agree with you OtakuFox.  Many western cartoons just 'reset' the characters in every episode, especially the classics with Disney and Warner Brothers.  Japanese anime seems to focus on character progression and FIM is one of the few western cartoons to do the same.  I mean just look at Twilight and her teleportation spell from the second episode of the series to the first episode of Season 3 (the best, clearest example there is I believe). Though, it seems to me that Twilight's personality does not grow near as much as her magic ability does, and that makes her overall growth seem more concrete.  Fluttershy's is a more subtle growth, and not seen very much at all in Season 1 or most of Season 2 until 'Putting Your Hoof Down.'  And from there on 'til the end of the season, it is much more clear (Look at her actions in the intro of 'Dragon Quest' for the best example).  In 'Hurricane Fluttershy,' the poor thing has to tackle another fault within her, not so much assertiveness as it is believing in herself despite what others say.  One episode focuses on an 'external' flaw (how she is able to interact with others) and the other focuses on an internal flaw (her self-esteem and her self-confidence).  It seems to me no other character in the series to date has had to deal with such a deep internal flaw.  I could say Applejack in 'The Last Round-up' but that did not seem pride based, more so self-disappointment when others put too much faith into her (for money and such), if they didn't put her on a pedestal like that in the beginning, she would not have done what she did. Can't think of anything Pinkie Pie related offhand, besides anything responsibility related (which is external, in terms of how she deals with others since she does take responsibility in 'Too Many Pinkie's' but with all the clones, no one notices.  Rarity, uh..can't think of anything for her, and Rainbow Dash...well she did not get it even in the 'Mysterious Mare-Do-Well' so her narcissism is still a problem.  The only other character to have a deep internal flaw is Spike, but his greed has more to do with his inherent dragon nature than it is something he will grow through (he will always be battling that instinct). 

Maybe I'm just yammering, but I hope I make some sense.  I'm just trying to explain why Fluttershy's character development is deeper than the rest, kindness element aside...

 

Applejack, Pinkie Pie, and Rainbow Dash don't have deep internal flaws or character development (Rarity hasn't had enough screentime in Seasons 2 and 3 really for me to analyze)? I'd beg to differ, especially on that last one.

 

Does pride have to be AJ's deepest flaw? I think not. In a nutshell, she is described best by the term Broken Ace. She well and truly terrified by the prospect of disappointment or letting others down. As the element of honesty, betraying someone's trust is already an issue for her, but you add in the aspect of her past, too, and it becomes a problem that has persisted through most of her life. Her parents died at some point in her life, and I surmise that that had happened not long before her cutie mark story (where she probably ran away from home to escape the grief, as well as the reasons she gave to the CMC). Therefore, she's had to bear a lot of responsibility from a young age just in order to keep everypony going.

 

Applejack drilled into her mind that she couldn't fail or everything would come crashing down. In Applebuck Season, she felt like it was her duty to take care of the farm all by herself. And she has never had to relearn the lesson from that episode! Character development, anyone? In The Last Roundup, she was so afraid to disappoint Ponyville that she ran away from her home and friends to not have to reveal her failure. In Apple Family Reunion, all those shenanigans happened because she was trying too hard to make everypony happy and make it the best reunion ever. 

 

 

Speaking of making everypony happy, how about Pinkie Pie? I suppose living on the appreciation of others is external in a sense, but that's not really fair, is it? Almost all of Pinkie Pie's episodes involve her trying to make EVERYPONY her BFF. Party Of One shows her fear of ponies not being her friends, A Friend In Deed is obvious, and Too Many Pinkie Pies happens because she wants to spend time with all her friends at once. There's also the responsibility thing you brought up. For character development, we see real!Pinkie trying to have more quiet fun when RD is tired, instead of HYPER ALL THE TIME like she was in A Friend In Deed.

 

 

And finally, Rainbow Dash, who combines both of the above and, in my opinion, has the most character development of any of the Mane 6. And, just like Applejack, she has a handy trope to describe her; inferiority superiority complex. Basically, a character who hides an inferiority complex with a superiority one. Sonic Rainboom and, if you think about it, The Mysterious Mare Do Well make it very clear that this is no light issue for RD. What do you mean by "she did not get it" in The Mysterious Mare Do Well? She acknowledged her bad behavior and the episodes since, especially in Season 3, have shown that she behaves in a much more mature manner now. I honestly believe that Mare Do Well would never have happened for Season 3 Rainbow Dash, because she doesn't need the approval of others so much to feel validated. She stands up to Lightning Dust and even the Wonderbolts, her lifetime idols, when she thinks something isn't right. That is also not something that Season 1/Season 2 Rainbow Dash would've done. 

 

 

And isn't the issue with Spike and greed the same as Fluttershy and assertiveness? Wingnut has brought up in previous threads how Fluttershy will constantly be battling her fears and self confidence issues, and that they won't just disappear. Same with Spike and greed, just put perhaps in a more physical sense. 

 

Oh, and to be on topic, I think Fluttershy's kindness actually complements assertiveness better than dormatness. That manticore in episode 2, that dragon in Dragonshy, and Discord in Season 3; none of them were exactly friendly to her before she showed them kindness. The element of kindness requires a certain kind (heheh) of bravery. It's easy to be nice to someone who is nice to you. It is much harder to be nice to someone who acts like a raging jerk and to see the goodness inside of them. But that's what Fluttershy does.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Stellafera