Disable Download Feature?

[CloudFyre 848]

The only honest way to tell people that they can buy your song is by asking/telling them that they can buy it. 

Then, being an audiophile means you care about High Fidelity and not the music, so I have a hard time to understand how this has anything to do with Music Downloads. ( Other than being a Red Herring. ) And I am not so convinced that there "hundreds upon thousands of others"(sic) that believe the same thing. ( Well that might explain why the lobbies exist. Actually it doesn't, only the money behind it does. )

 

By disabling downloads and forcing users to pay for their music you alienate a rather big possible fanbase. ( Which is all those who cannot pay or are unable to pay due to their age. ) 

An "audiophile" has generally come to mean a person who just loves music in general - I'm not going by Webster's dictionary here. That aside, the true "audiophile" side of me that cares about "high fidelity" sees why some people force others to buy the music. It's the attention to detail. After putting the sheer amount of work and detail into a song, you want something back.

 

You might alienate people. That's the way it works. You win some, and you lose some. Hopefully after handing out enough free songs, people will start to realize that the paid songs are simply a request for some support for future music. Unless a person has a fanbase of a few hundred thousand, I wouldn't suggest making every song a buy-only deal, but considering that most of the MLP fanbase is older than 18, I'm wouldn't be too worried about people not being able to pay.

 

And whether you believe it or not, those honest people do in fact exist. I and many others have lists of artists that we support. If they give something out for free, that's awesome. If they feel like they've put in a ton of effort and actually want something for their time and energy, I'll gladly buy the track. They deserve it.

 

 

Long story short: disabling downloads could direct people to buy a particular song.

 

And it's not just for that singular purpose either; I uploaded music that was a preview of songs for an MLP RPG game. I didn't want anyone to download/use them in another project without my permission, and thus I wanted a disabled downloads feature. (In light of Hasbro taking down Fighting is Magic, the project disbanded, so the songs are now up on Pony.fm.)

 

As another example: WIP's (Work In Progress). If I want to show fans that a new song is coming along, I don't want them to be able to download an unfinished track - there's just no point to it.

Edited April 23, 2013 by CloudFyre

[Jokuc 8,172]

Yeah, it's probably something that is needed. Some musicians maybe want to release some certain songs for download at the same time of when a new album is released. Or they doesnt want people to download the songs at all.

 

 

 

Though.. everyone knows that you can record audio in full quality with this cable..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Carbon Maestro 1,003]

The thing is, I may have songs that are going to a Charity album, and that group doesn't want its members to be endorsing free downloads for it.

 

There's my reason for not wanting a download feature.

 

I know people are going to get free downloads from my music regardless, but the problem here and the same problem goes with EQBeats and why I'm reluctant to upload Charity songs because of the automatic download feature.

Edited April 23, 2013 by CarbonMaestro

[Neikos 968]

And whether you believe it or not, those honest people do in fact exist. I and many others have lists of artists that we support. If they give something out for free, that's awesome. If they feel like they've put in a ton of effort and actually want something for their time and energy, I'll gladly buy the track. They deserve it.

 

I have never put in doubt that people aren't willing to pay, actually the fact that Bandcamp still exists just shows that people still wish to pay for great music. And while it's about gaming, I still believe this holds true for music as well. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem

[CloudFyre 848]

I have never put in doubt that people aren't willing to pay, actually the fact that Bandcamp still exists just shows that people still wish to pay for great music. And while it's about gaming, I still believe this holds true for music as well. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem

Alright then, you don't doubt that people are willing to pay...so what were you trying to say then? I'm a bit confused.

 

And I've already read that story, and while I agree with the point, what does that have to do with this?

 

(Totally off topic, but if I haven't said it already: I love that Cadance avatar. )

Edited April 23, 2013 by CloudFyre

[Neikos 968]

Alright then, you don't doubt that people are willing to pay...so what were you trying to say then? I'm a bit confused.

 

And I've already read that story, and while I agree with the point, what does that have to do with this?

 

(Totally off topic, but if I haven't said it already: I love that Cadance avatar. )

 

 

( Thanks :3 )

 

It's all about not needing to take away freedom just for the sake of it. If your only reason is that you want to force users to buy it before they can download it then my argument is that it won't work and you should look at other ways of monetizing what you do.

[CloudFyre 848]

( Thanks :3 )

 

It's all about not needing to take away freedom just for the sake of it. If your only reason is that you want to force users to buy it before they can download it then my argument is that it won't work and you should look at other ways of monetizing what you do.

Okay, then let me play devil's advocate for a second: how in the world would an artist make any money off of his hobby if he doesn't force people to pay once and a while? YouTube ads? Plays on Spotify?!? There are the random donors for sure, but money directly coming from songs (whether physical or digital copies) literally has the highest rate of return for a musician. It's the mainstay of the modern musician!

 

Have an infographic!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2013 by CloudFyre

[Neikos 968]

That is a nice infographic but a bit irrelevant, you are looking for compensation, not payment which is something else entirely. But I do agree, getting people to pay is a pain in the ass. And whether your music is free or not doesn't change that. But it does change the attitude towards your fanbase. You aren't here to alienate them based on their financial situation. They are here to use their free time to listen to music you made, so better give them the best stay. Not only does that give you a higher turnout but also they are willing to pay more. 

[Twilight Sparkle ✨ 8,520]

I see one main argument here for being able to disable downloads: an effort to encourage people to buy the song.

 

Let's not forget that Pony.fm is (still) a noncommercial site. It's not meant to be used as a place for you to promote your Bandcamp page. It's largely a matter of principle moreso than a technological limitation:

• When you use Pony.fm as an intermediate outlet to host your music, and direct people to Bandcamp to buy it, Bandcamp gets to make 10-15% from a transaction they barely have anything to do with while Pony.fm gets squat - even if Pony.fm actually does far more to promote you as an artist than Bandcamp does.
• Pony.fm has some pretty hefty bills, and I don't mind getting something back for spending hundreds of hours building this site. You guys make music; I make software. While I'm not expecting any riches to come from a fan site, it doesn't sit well with me if people use Pony.fm to promote themselves commercially but a third party such as Bandcamp ends up with the distributor's share of the profit.

Now, I would love to build a Bandcamp-esque sales mechanism into Pony.fm, but the legalities of selling music are already gray enough, and the strong presence of Hasbro intellectual property on the site might make things even trickier. I'd be thrilled if Pony.fm could handle promotion, streaming, and sales alike, but I don't know when/if that will happen.

 

Until I have a hard answer to that, commercial activity of any kind is something that will be discouraged on Pony.fm. If the main reason artists want to disable downloads is so they can ask people to buy them from Bandcamp, it'll look like Pony.fm endorses commercial activity.

 

The thing is, I may have songs that are going to a Charity album, and that group doesn't want its members to be endorsing free downloads for it.

 

There's my reason for not wanting a download feature.

 

I know people are going to get free downloads from my music regardless, but the problem here and the same problem goes with EQBeats and why I'm reluctant to upload Charity songs because of the automatic download feature.

I'll have to get back to you on this one, CarbonMaestro. I'm all for supporting charity work, but the charitable nature of the music should be verifiable to some degree. Need to go to chemistry class now.

[Flutterwhat 14]

Honestly, feld0, Since every other musician's music site offers the option of disabling downloads, pony.fm should too. It should not a question about why any particular user wishes to disable them, as such a standard option is implemetned on other sites for any reason they'd be needed.

 

While you are free to discourage advertising of media that contains show audio, a good chunk of my late 2012 and 2013 work doesn't have samples so I wouldn't be caught in any theoretical legal hassle with my work. If i'd like to disable downloads and direct users to my bandcamp for such songs, I should be able to do because there is no legal gray area when all of the creative work is mine. 

 

Everyone should have the right to to dissallow the distribution of their work for any reason they see fit. I, myself, am not entirely comfortable having all of my pony.fm songs available for download regardless of how I wish to have them distributed. 

 

I feel like this is a bit anti-consumer and I hope that you'll add the option to disallow downloads via the download button in the future.

edit: 

 

 

If the main reason artists want to disable downloads is so they can ask people to buy them from Bandcamp, it'll look like Pony.fm endorses commercial activity.

 

If you include a disclaimer somewhere on the site saying something along the lines of "pony.fm does not directly encourage the marketing/sale of music uploaded to pony.fm. All content created and literature written by members of pony.fm is not representative of pony.fm or it's staff."

 

I think it's pretty standard that sites with user generated content don't hold themselves liable for the content uploaded or what the users say or do. 

Edited April 24, 2013 by Flutterwhat

[Neikos 968]

If you include a disclaimer somewhere on the site saying something along the lines of "pony.fm does not encourage the sale of music. All content created and literature written by members of pony.fm is not endorsed by pony.fm."

 

I think it's pretty standard that sites with user generated content don't hold themselves liable for the content uploaded or what the users say or do. 

 

If you are not actively enforcing your disclaimer it is basically nil

[Flutterwhat 14]

If you are not actively enforcing your disclaimer it is basically nil

a disclaimer stating that pony.fm isn't responsible for what the users write or do doesn't have to be enforced. 

also, read it again. I tweaked my wording.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Flutterwhat

[Neikos 968]

a disclaimer stating that pony.fm isn't responsible for what the users write or do doesn't have to be enforced. 

also, read it again. I tweaked my wording.

 

Of course it has to be enforced. Disclaimers are not a carte blanche. To be honest it kind of seems that you do not realize what actually happens once you get a C&D letter from a large corporation. 

[Flutterwhat 14]

I think if hasbro would launch a C&D against pony.fm it would be because pony.fm it's self is hosting work that contains their IP, not because users are disabling downloads and providing links to bandcamp in their place. If you'd truly like to be rid of any risk, why not dissalow the upload of any music containing audio from the show? 

My point in all this is that providing the option to disallow downloads would be more user friendly, and bring more content to the site, the discouraging artists who do not wish for their work to be redistributed without their consent (for any reason.) 

[CloudFyre 848]

That is a nice infographic but a bit irrelevant, you are looking for compensation, not payment which is something else entirely. But I do agree, getting people to pay is a pain in the ass. And whether your music is free or not doesn't change that. But it does change the attitude towards your fanbase. You aren't here to alienate them based on their financial situation. They are here to use their free time to listen to music you made, so better give them the best stay. Not only does that give you a higher turnout but also they are willing to pay more. 

It is pretty much the same thing, just under a different name. Payment is compensation: I create something, you pay me (or compensate me, take your pick) for the effort I put into it.

 

And I know for me (and quite a few others), music has to be a self sustaining hobby. It costs a heck of a lot of money to buy software and synthesizers, and as a guy in college, that means that everything has to stay in a fine balance. If I keep handing things off for free, there's no point.

 

I suppose that's the main thing that I'm wondering: you said that getting people to pay is a "pain in the ***. How is not charging going to help fix that problem? If you never ask for money from anyone, what is the solution?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love generating a fanbase, and throwing tracks up on the web to get feedback - viewer comments are the bulk of the fun. Out of all of the songs I've ever written, only one has been commercially sold, and that's up on Beatport. (I write music for fun, not for a source of income.) I'm just trying to figure out how you would propose to make the music hobby a self sustaining platform, yet not charge for songs.

Edited April 24, 2013 by CloudFyre

[Carbon Maestro 1,003]

I see one main argument here for being able to disable downloads: an effort to encourage people to buy the song.

 

Let's not forget that Pony.fm is (still) a noncommercial site. It's not meant to be used as a place for you to promote your Bandcamp page. It's largely a matter of principle moreso than a technological limitation:

• When you use Pony.fm as an intermediate outlet to host your music, and direct people to Bandcamp to buy it, Bandcamp gets to make 10-15% from a transaction they barely have anything to do with while Pony.fm gets squat - even if Pony.fm actually does far more to promote you as an artist than Bandcamp does.
• Pony.fm has some pretty hefty bills, and I don't mind getting something back for spending hundreds of hours building this site. You guys make music; I make software. While I'm not expecting any riches to come from a fan site, it doesn't sit well with me if people use Pony.fm to promote themselves commercially but a third party such as Bandcamp ends up with the distributor's share of the profit.

Now, I would love to build a Bandcamp-esque sales mechanism into Pony.fm, but the legalities of selling music are already gray enough, and the strong presence of Hasbro intellectual property on the site might make things even trickier. I'd be thrilled if Pony.fm could handle promotion, streaming, and sales alike, but I don't know when/if that will happen.

 

Until I have a hard answer to that, commercial activity of any kind is something that will be discouraged on Pony.fm. If the main reason artists want to disable downloads is so they can ask people to buy them from Bandcamp, it'll look like Pony.fm endorses commercial activity.

 

I'll have to get back to you on this one, CarbonMaestro. I'm all for supporting charity work, but the charitable nature of the music should be verifiable to some degree. Need to go to chemistry class now.

Oh, the charity it's for is viable and legitimate. 'Tis for the upcoming Seeds of Kindness 3 Charity album, and no, they are not affiliating with Bandcamp. You can find them here:

http://broniesforgood.org/seeds-of-kindness-3/album/

 

One rule I noted is that I can't have download links. It's not that I want to, but it's the charity's policy in order to raise money for those Ugandans.

I think the best current solution for me is to not post the song on Pony.fm when June 26th hits. But then again, things may change by then.

[HMage 4]

Don't forget that in some countries downloading a song from a place that author uploaded is legally considered ownership of that copy.

 

You may end up that this site will never be used by those who want to limit free sanctioned distribution but allow listening up until some point in time (like Seeds Of Kindness for example -- I _had_ to wait a few months before I post a streamable version and I _had_ to keep disabled downloads for my track for a few more months).

 

This starts a vicious cycle:

* track done -- its for seeds of kindness but i can't upload a track here because I can't disable downloads? Maybe later.

* next track done -- wanna upload to sites that reflect my full discography -- this site isn't one of them, so skipped.

* next track done -- wanna upload only to one place so I can count all playbacks -- but because of last two tracks, my presence on this site is diminished so I choose the one with most of it -- right now it's youtube.

* next track done -- wanna upload to 100500 hosting sites and announce in 100500 social media/forums -- after spending hour in frenzy I realise I forgot this site, because of reasons above it wasn't in top priority and I don't have time to upload right now. Maybe later.

 

See the pattern?

[Freewave 1,145]

I do see both sides of this argument. I do think feld has a point that if people get an account here just so they can show up on pony.fm's charts and then direct people to bandcamp it really is a switcheroo and not fair to thsi site. Likewise if he tried to allow commerical sales and people do covers, unauthorized show or music samples (Silva Hound's first album has load of unauthorized disco samples and from people like Stardust and Phil Collins) on here he would be partially liable for anyone's actions. He doesn't need to add legal costs to hosting costs. It's much easier to not worry about these issues if no one is making a dime off the process.

 

There are PLENTY of musicians making money right now on bandcamp and they do that from getting their albums spotlit on EQD. I don't see that pony.fm has to compete with that or think that they have to fill in for those who are already going to use bandcamp. My music will always remain free whether on here or on bandcamp (hey it's not the Paywave) and i think it's important not to take a good chunk of pony.fm's future catalog from being unavailable for a free download. What the point of free streaming and HQ downloads if you disable them. Eqbeats is FREE mlp music and is more their direct competition. I have to ask do they offer the dismantle download option?

Edited April 27, 2013 by Freewave

[CloudFyre 848]

I do see both sides of this argument. I do think feld has a point that if people get an account here just so they can show up on pony.fm's charts and then direct people to bandcamp it really is a switcheroo and not fair to thsi site. Likewise if he tried to allow commerical sales and people do covers, unauthorized show or music samples (Silva Hound's first album has load of unauthorized disco samples and from people like Stardust and Phil Collins) on here he would be partially liable for anyone's actions. He doesn't need to add legal costs to hosting costs. It's much easier to not worry about these issues if no one is making a dime off the process.

 

There are PLENTY of musicians making money right now on bandcamp and they do that from getting their albums spotlit on EQD. I don't see that pony.fm has to compete with that or think that they have to fill in for those who are already going to use bandcamp. My music will always remain free whether on here or on bandcamp (hey it's not the Paywave) and i think it's important not to take a good chunk of pony.fm's future catalog from being unavailable for a free download. What the point of free streaming and HQ downloads if you disable them. Eqbeats is FREE mlp music and is more their direct competition. I have to ask do they offer the dismantle download option?

Money money money...while it's a good point, that's not the sole reason for disabled downloads. (Besides, I'd venture to guess that the majority of people that use Bandcamp really don't make much from it. Collectively it's a very sizable number, but on a per artist basis, I doubt it's a huge source of money.)

 

As I mentioned earlier, WIP (Work In Progress) tunes aren't something that I would want people to be able to download, but I still would need opinions on it. Thus, I'd upload it here and ask for opinions before releasing the actual thing. Unfortunately, I can't do that unless I'm really okay with letting people download unmastered, unfinished copies of tracks. (That seems unprofessional to me - and I if I were uploading raw samples, I wouldn't want people to be able to download samples that they could use without permission elsewhere.)

 

And if I want to release all of the songs in an album all at once, but upload songs as a "preview" every few weeks, the same story applies. With the current system, I'd either have to not upload anything until the day when I want to release the album, or divert all of my viewers over to SoundCloud or a similar site. In each case, it's pulling traffic away from Pony.fm.

 

Chances are I'll never end up selling anything from this site. So while I see the draw of keeping such a feature out, there are a few reasons that I'd actually use disabled downloads, however rare the occasion may be.

Edited April 27, 2013 by CloudFyre

[Freewave 1,145]

Money money money...while it's a good point, that's not the sole reason for disabled downloads. (Besides, I'd venture to guess that the majority of people that use Bandcamp really don't make much from it. Collectively it's a very sizable number, but on a per artist basis, I doubt it's a huge source of money.)

 

As I mentioned earlier, WIP (Work In Progress) tunes aren't something that I would want people to be able to download, but I still would need opinions on it. Thus, I'd upload it here and ask for opinions before releasing the actual thing. Unfortunately, I can't do that unless I'm really okay with letting people download unmastered, unfinished copies of tracks. (That seems unprofessional to me - and I if I were uploading raw samples, I wouldn't want people to be able to download samples that they could use without permission elsewhere.)

 

And if I want to release all of the songs in an album all at once, but upload songs as a "preview" every few weeks, the same story applies. With the current system, I'd either have to not upload anything until the day when I want to release the album, or divert all of my viewers over to SoundCloud or a similar site. In each case, it's pulling traffic away from Pony.fm.

 

Chances are I'll never end up selling anything from this site. So while I see the draw of keeping such a feature out, there are a few reasons that I'd actually use disabled downloads, however rare the occasion may be.

You've got some good points and people have made them throughout. Being able to stream charity tracks but w/o downloads is the most noble as there are many restrictions for artists in NOT letting those be available for dload seperately. WIP's and unlisted tracks are not something that pony.fm has created a capability for BY design (as wip's could make the front page just as easily as a completed track). Now should artists be able to do unlisted WIP's w/o downloads. That would not be a current feature that Feld wants to have yet (and he has said so as its a drain from what he does host). They should be unlisted if wips ARE ever allowed.

 

But obviously you could use dropbox or soundcloud still for those as they have those features and have people comment on those. Releasing an album is very tough as I have released tracks before it came out and the album more or less comes packaged more like a compilation than an album with lots of new tracks. You could upload 30 second teasers, but soundcloud and eqbeats don't even offer album downloads so pony.fm does have that advantage there.

 

That's incidentally why 2/3 of my catalog aren't on here yet. I'm still cleaning up old tracks and getting a few new ones so can release additional albums here and on bandcamp. I'm not expecting pony.fm to allow me to upload them in advance and preview them out w/download. An album should have a definite publish date and yes that is all at once. I don't think even bandcamp does that differently....

[CloudFyre 848]

You've got some good points and people have made them throughout. Being able to stream charity tracks but w/o downloads is the most noble as there are many restrictions for artists in NOT letting those be available for dload seperately. WIP's and unlisted tracks are not something that pony.fm has created a capability for BY design (as wip's could make the front page just as easily as a completed track). Now should artists be able to do unlisted WIP's w/o downloads. That would not be a current feature that Feld wants to have yet (and he has said so as its a drain from what he does host). They should be unlisted if wips ARE ever allowed.  But obviously you could use dropbox or soundcloud still for those as they have those features and have people comment on those. Releasing an album is very tough as I have released tracks before it came out and the album more or less comes packaged more like a compilation than an album with lots of new tracks. You could upload 30 second teasers, but soundcloud and eqbeats don't even offer album downloads so pony.fm does have that advantage there. That's incidentally why 2/3 of my catalog aren't on here yet. I'm still cleaning up old tracks and getting a few new ones so can release additional albums here and on bandcamp. I'm not expecting pony.fm to allow me to upload them in advance and preview them out w/download. An album should have a definite publish date and yes that is all at once. I don't think even bandcamp does that differently....

Then this site becomes less and less useful by the second. Once again, if WIP's aren't going to be supported here, SoundCloud has the advantage. Besides, if we have a review/critique/suggestion feature planned for finished songs, why restrict uploads of the unfinished ones as well? That seems silly to me - most of the creative blocks arise mid-composition. (Obviously the official reviewers shouldn't burn their time on WIP's, but hopefully the community can help pitch in and make suggestions if someone is stuck.)

 

What this has basically done is whittle Pony.fm down to an overly specific focus: pony songs that are completely finished AND aren't for sale AND available for free download no matter what. If a song doesn't meet one of those requirements - tough luck.

 

 

And I can understand not wanting to implement such a feature. It's an easy way for artists to divert traffic to their own personal websites, etc., which would be counterproductive to the website as a whole. On that basis alone I'd support keeping such a feature out. I just wanted to shine some light on the other side of the argument.

[Twilight Sparkle ✨ 8,520]

A lot of great arguments have been made for both sides, for both being able to disable downloads and having some concept of a WIP on Pony.fm. If people are going, "crap, I absolutely can't use Pony.fm for this - must head back to SoundCloud!", that's a good sign that Pony.fm is lacking something it shouldn't.

 

I'll go ahead and implement the ability to disable downloads. At the very least, I'm curious to see how the feature will really end up being used.

[Betez 1,734]

At the end of the day, if there's a song you REALLY want to download that isn't available, you can always record it with Audacity or something. (That's what I do with songs I like on soundcloud that aren't available for download.) That's already been established.

 

However, was Pony.fm originally supposed to be a place for artists to sell music? If people are so concerned about piracy and stealing other people's work, look at, for example, the Newgrounds Audio portal. All the music there is free for download, made by people who bought DAWs and whatnot too. However, I've never heard of any problems with music plagiarism, or artists having a problem with people downloading their music for free there.

 

Just my 2¢ on this.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Betez

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

Considering I used to tape a mic to the speaker on a radio to record music, then trim and clean it in Audacity when I was a young kid and didn't have access to good enough internet for just torrenting music or using Youtube2MP3 software...

 

I can safety say disabling downloads doesn't do squat and just inhibits use of the service.

[Twilight Sparkle ✨ 8,520]

Download disabling is in! Look for the new switch in the track editor:
 

  
 

At the end of the day, if there's a song you REALLY want to download that isn't available, you can always record it with Audacity or something. (That's what I do with songs I like on soundcloud that aren't available for download.) That's already been established.

 

Considering I used to tape a mic to the speaker on a radio to record music, then trim and clean it in Audacity when I was a young kid and didn't have access to good enough internet for just torrenting music or using Youtube2MP3 software...
 
I can safety say disabling downloads doesn't do squat and just inhibits use of the service.

 
Disabling downloads does prevent you from acquiring a lossless copy of a track, which is something - admittedly, something most people won't care too much about, but it serves to discourage redistribution at the very least.

 

However, was Pony.fm originally supposed to be a place for artists to sell music? If people are so concerned about piracy and stealing other people's work, look at, for example, the Newgrounds Audio portal. All the music there is free for download, made by people who bought DAWs and whatnot too. However, I've never heard of any problems with music plagiarism, or artists having a problem with people downloading their music for free there.

 

Selling music on Pony.fm is actually something I'd like to be possible someday, but making it happen is fraught with legal complications, so don't expect anything on that front for a while.

---

 

Update: Have a blog entry.

 

https://mlpforums.com/blogs/entry/4441-downloads-can-now-be-disabled/