The Elements of Harmony - Additional Opposing Vices?

[RockinRarity 1,605]

OK deep-thinking/philosophical bronies. This thread is for you. This thread is for non-deep-thinking and philosophical types as well, as I need all the help I can get, but this is the kind of stuff that overanalyzers can eat up. But my introduction is going to be a little lengthy, though, so please be patient.

 

I recently read a blog from a Catholic website the other day that introduces something called, "The Seven Deadly Neuroses." It may be of help to read the post - just for background. http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/documents/the-seven-deadly-neuroses-1959001

 

The point of the blog is to look at the Seven Deadly Sins and their opposing virtues a little bit differently. The subtitle to this blog post is, "The dirty little secret of religious people - a whole list of sins they commit without even realizing it." While most of the world looks at virtue and sees a stark opposite of that virtue, the author of this blog says that there is a way to see things a little differently. He says, "I adopted something I found in St. Thomas Aquinas’ treatment of these evils. Yes, he laid out the sin, and the “opposing virtue.” But as a good Aristotelian, he knew that moral reasoning is not a one dimensional line that runs from right to left, with the sin at one extreme and the virtue at the other. Instead, he saw a triangle, with one kind of vice at one extreme, an opposing vice at the opposite pole (of the sort we’d nowadays call a “neurosis”), and above them, at the top of a pyramid, the virtue that looms as the “golden mean.” 

 

So one of the Seven Deadly Sins is Greed, right? Well, here is one of the examples of this pyramid that he uses in his blog.

 

 

For those of you who don't know, "prodigal" doesn't mean "runaway" or "long-lost." It means that you waste your money in exchange for frivolous, unimportant things. It isn't exactly greed, but it certainly isn't generosity either.

 

And it made me think, "What would that pyramid look like for all of the other elements?"

 

And that is my question to you, folks. If the Element of Harmony is on the top of the pyramid, what would be the two Elements of Disharmony at the bottom of the pyramid? The Discordian one being on the bottom-left, and the not-so-obvious one being on the bottom-right.

 

I do not need immediate or straight-up answers. I just want other brains tackling the subject with me. Discuss away~

[Shanks 10,816]

Honesty: The obvious of course is dishonesty but as there is more to being honest than simply not telling lies there is also more to being dishonest than telling lies. I think that dishonesty in its purest form is a complete and utter contempt for the truth, someone who is dishonest will cherry pick the elements of truth that benefit them while either ignoring or spinning the ones that are inconvenient to them. Politicians do this quite a bit which is one of the many reasons why I don't like them very much but ordinary people do that as well, alot of people lie to themselves to convince themselves that voting for the "lesser evil" is the right thing to do because the "other guy" just has to lose.

 

The less obvious answer is bluntness which while I believe in many cases is appropriate and in some desirable can be taken a bit far. A good example of this is this one thread I saw last night that had a youtube comment screenshot that has an argument between a brony and non brony. The brony had a good point when he said that the non brony who complained over bronies "ponifying everything" was simply complaining over nothing but the over the top condescending way he made his point by using sarcastic phrases like "baby wants his bottle" went way too far.

 

 

Loyalty: Loyalty matters but what is just as important is who or what you are loyal to. The founding fathers for examlpe were disloyal to the British Crown but they were loyal to something far more important, loyal to an idea where people get their rights not from some king or from permission from bureaucrats but by the very nature of their humanity. The implementation is this was not and is still not perfect and is backsliding horribly in many ways but it is closer than any other civilization has ever been and for that I believe Americans should be proud. On the other side of the coin many German soldiers were loyal to the Nazi's and justified their heinous crimes by saying "I was only following orders."

 

Laughter: Again important but what also matters is if you are laughing with or at someone. Discord did quite a bit of laughing as he corrupted the mane 6 and at least for a while turned Ponyville into the chaos capital of Equestria.

 

Kindness: The road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions and I believe that is one of the reasons why there are so many problems right now. There are more government regulations and programs than ever before yet poverty continues to get worse and worse. And while I think the politicians are using these programs to control and manipulate people there are a lot of well meaning people that actually believe that these help and are the right thing to do. I want to help people, but I just don't think spending ourselves to the poorhouse on programs that don't work is going to do that in the long run.

[RockinRarity 1,605]

 

 

Honesty: The obvious of course is dishonesty but as there is more to being honest than simply not telling lies there is also more to being dishonest than telling lies. I think that dishonesty in its purest form is a complete and utter contempt for the truth, someone who is dishonest will cherry pick the elements of truth that benefit them while either ignoring or spinning the ones that are inconvenient to them. Politicians do this quite a bit which is one of the many reasons why I don't like them very much but ordinary people do that as well, alot of people lie to themselves to convince themselves that voting for the "lesser evil" is the right thing to do because the "other guy" just has to lose.

 

The less obvious answer is bluntness which while I believe in many cases is appropriate and in some desirable can be taken a bit far. A good example of this is this one thread I saw last night that had a youtube comment screenshot that has an argument between a brony and non brony. The brony had a good point when he said that the non brony who complained over bronies "ponifying everything" was simply complaining over nothing but the over the top condescending way he made his point by using sarcastic phrases like "baby wants his bottle" went way too far.

 

IMO you hit the nail on the head with this one. So I started my Honesty pyramid, and made Deceit the bottom-left point. However, I wonder if there is a better word for "bluntness." That is exactly the kind of idea that I am trying to represent for the bottom-right point, but I wonder if there is a better, more philosophical term that can replace it. Bluntness just seems to plain to me. *shrug* But like I said, I think that the idea is spot-on.

 

 

 

Loyalty: Loyalty matters but what is just as important is who or what you are loyal to. The founding fathers for examlpe were disloyal to the British Crown but they were loyal to something far more important, loyal to an idea where people get their rights not from some king or from permission from bureaucrats but by the very nature of their humanity. The implementation is this was not and is still not perfect and is backsliding horribly in many ways but it is closer than any other civilization has ever been and for that I believe Americans should be proud. On the other side of the coin many German soldiers were loyal to the Nazi's and justified their heinous crimes by saying "I was only following orders."

 

Oooooooo... so the bottom-right point would be blind loyalty? Following orders from someone just because they are in charge of you, because they said so? Interesting...

 

 

 

Laughter: Again important but what also matters is if you are laughing with or at someone. Discord did quite a bit of laughing as he corrupted the mane 6 and at least for a while turned Ponyville into the chaos capital of Equestria.

 

I suppose that Pinkie Pie's laughter would need to be defined more specifically. Indeed laughter can be used for evil, but how does one describe Pinkie Pie's Element of Laughter, and how is it different from other forms of laughter?

 

Would one of the bottom points of the pyramid be stoicism? Laughter in Pinkie Pie's case is simply the expression of joy (I just answered my own question lol), but a lack of joy would be on one of the bottom points, then. What is the opposite vice for stoicism?

 

 

 

Kindness: The road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions and I believe that is one of the reasons why there are so many problems right now. There are more government regulations and programs than ever before yet poverty continues to get worse and worse. And while I think the politicians are using these programs to control and manipulate people there are a lot of well meaning people that actually believe that these help and are the right thing to do. I want to help people, but I just don't think spending ourselves to the poorhouse on programs that don't work is going to do that in the long run.

 

I will say that while your political points in this case are very interesting and I happen to agree with them, it wasn't exactly what was on my mind when coming up with Kindness.

 

Fluttershy's Discorded vice is quite simply Cruelty. Her transformation is the most memorable to me, just because it is so... so bitchy. And really quite scary to know that even Fluttershy is capable of such cruelty. Most of my friends who have seen the show say that I'm most like Twilight, but I'm really a Twilight/Fluttershy combination. And I know that I, too, am capable of being that bitchy, and then some.

 

The opposing vice? That blog post actually talked about the rest of the 7 deadly sins, and there was a pyramid for Wrath. Wrath's opposing vice is Servility, which is being weak-minded and a doormat. And that just fits Fluttershy on her bad days.

 

What do the masses think?

[Scootalove 10,689]

Loyalty: Loyalty shows that not only would you stick to your commanding officers or, to your affiliates and people that can count on you. Betrayal can show that not only do you stab anyone in the back leaving them for dead but, nobody would really care at all. Deceptiveness would be the less obvious word, since being deceptive would be pretty brutal since you wouldn't be able to trust anyone at all or even have people trust you.

[Shanks 10,816]

Fluttershy's Discorded vice is quite simply Cruelty. Her transformation is the most memorable to me, just because it is so... so bitchy. And really quite scary to know that even Fluttershy is capable of such cruelty. 

Yes, the point that I got out of the Return of Harmony two parter is that everyone has a little bit of evil in them and given the right catalyst that evil could come out. Another prominent example of cruelty from Fluttershy is when she took her "assertiveness training" a bit too far in Putting Your Hoof down and she did not need Discord's magic for that cruelty to surface. It is why a lot of people that abuse and bully have been abused and bullied themselves, in many cases it is simple lashing out and trying to gain power over people as sort of a shield to prevent themselves from being bullied. In high school I had one scary temper that was so bad that I was constantly teetering on the edge of being expelled from school or even arrested. It was because I was singled out for being different and was desperate to get it to stop that, I tried to gain peoples respect through fear and intimidation but all I gained was pain. There were a few people that still understood me but there were a lot of people that thought I was a monster. Thankfully I have healed and gotten past this, but it was a disturbing time in my life.

 

 

Most of my friends who have seen the show say that I'm most like Twilight, but I'm really a Twilight/Fluttershy combination. And I know that I, too, am capable of being that bitchy, and then some.

The friend that introduced me to ponies has said he thinks I am combination of Twilight Sparkle and Pinkie Pie though I really think I am more of a combo of Twilight Sparkle and Applejack. I have always hated liars and lying, and family has always been important to me but though there aren't many cases where I have shown a contempt for the truth that I mentioned earlier there is one case in particular that I am not proud of. There was one situation where I was in a bad mood, I was in the jazz band at my high school at the time as the 2nd piano player and was scheduled to perform in a concert. I felt I was being upstaged when the teacher had the 1st play more songs than me which caused me to throw a tantrum and storm off.

 

My uncle who was watching me that night while my parents were away kept getting in my face about it and I wanted nothing to do with anyone and certainly was in no mood for a lecture. My rage was boiling inside me and I knew that if I didn't leave that he would either end up in the hospital or in the grave so I lied to him and told him that I was going for a walk but where I really went was my Dad's restaurant he owned at the time. After I arrived I lied to my Dad and told him that my uncle knew I was there and hung out there until closing time when he drove me back home. My uncle had no idea what happened to me, he called the police and everything so when I got home he was in tears and completely speechless. Since my anger toward him was still fresh I felt good about myself at first but later felt horrible about it.

 

 

 Wrath's opposing vice is Servility, which is being weak-minded and a doormat. And that just fits Fluttershy on her bad days.

 

Yes, that does seem to be the case with Fluttershy in most cases. She supposedly learned to be more assertive in Putting Your Hoof Down but the problem is that like many other lesson learned by Fluttershy just gets forgotten a few episodes later which makes her as a character very inconsistent. She can be an inspiring character in many cases but she just needs a little bit of tweaking.

[RockinRarity 1,605]

 

 

Yes, that does seem to be the case with Fluttershy in most cases. She supposedly learned to be more assertive in Putting Your Hoof Down but the problem is that like many other lesson learned by Fluttershy just gets forgotten a few episodes later which makes her as a character very inconsistent. She can be an inspiring character in many cases but she just needs a little bit of tweaking.

 

Just a quick note on this point - I don't think that that assertive lesson was ever forgotten. The next episode that Merriwether Williams writes is Dragon Quest, where Fluttershy 'asserts' that she does not want to go to the dragon watching. This is due to her being scared of dragons of course, but she asserted her right to not attend, whereas she could have just let Rainbow Dash take charge and let her be forced to go.

 

Keep Calm and Flutter On is Fluttershy's best episode, hands down. This is because it takes on lessons that she had learned in previous episodes, and added with a word of encouragement from Princess Celestia, she was able to do what the princess needed her to do, and did it very well.

 

As for her "forgetting" other lessons - people very rarely will stop being weak in a particular area after learning a lesson once. It usually takes a long time to keep relearning the same lessons and eventually we see a significant amount of growth from that character. There is absolutely no way that Fluttershy would have been able to reform Discord in season 1.

 

 

Another prominent example of cruelty from Fluttershy is when she took her "assertiveness training" a bit too far in Putting Your Hoof down and she did not need Discord's magic for that cruelty to surface.

 

 

OHH!!!! I just realized.

 

Fluttershy in Putting Your Hoof Down is the PERFECT example of her acting on the opposing vices and not acting in her element at all - until the very end of the episode. In the beginning, she acts in Servility. She is constantly being pushed around by others and letting them do what they want. Fluttershy wants this changed, but instead of going to the top of the pyramid, she walks to the other side. It isn't until the end of the episode when she has her breakdown and she stands up to Iron Will - kindly - that she finds the ladder to the top of the pyramid and starts to climb.

Loyalty: Loyalty shows that not only would you stick to your commanding officers or, to your affiliates and people that can count on you. Betrayal can show that not only do you stab anyone in the back leaving them for dead but, nobody would really care at all. Deceptiveness would be the less obvious word, since being deceptive would be pretty brutal since you wouldn't be able to trust anyone at all or even have people trust you.

Betrayal is an excellent Discordian word.

 

Deceptiveness, though, is still on the Betrayal corner of the pyramid, IMO. Plus it fits better in the Honesty pyramid (of course we all know that this sort of stuff in reality blends together, but for the sake of this topic my intention is to keep them separated).

 

The less-obvious vice is supposed to be the one that LOOKS like is the right and moral thing to be doing, but really it's almost equally bad to the obvious vice. For example, the difference between being Generous and being Prodigal is this: one who is Prodigal will throw his money at anything and be wasteful with it. The prodigal person says, "I'm not holding onto my money and begging for more of it. I can't be greedy because money just isn't that important." But the Generous person says, "My money is valuable, and because I recognize just how valuable it is, I am going to share it with someone else who needs it, because it is my way of showing love to another person."

 

Make sense?

[Scootalove 10,689]

Just a quick note on this point - I don't think that that assertive lesson was ever forgotten. The next episode that Merriwether Williams writes is Dragon Quest, where Fluttershy 'asserts' that she does not want to go to the dragon watching. This is due to her being scared of dragons of course, but she asserted her right to not attend, whereas she could have just let Rainbow Dash take charge and let her be forced to go.

 

Keep Calm and Flutter On is Fluttershy's best episode, hands down. This is because it takes on lessons that she had learned in previous episodes, and added with a word of encouragement from Princess Celestia, she was able to do what the princess needed her to do, and did it very well.

 

As for her "forgetting" other lessons - people very rarely will stop being weak in a particular area after learning a lesson once. It usually takes a long time to keep relearning the same lessons and eventually we see a significant amount of growth from that character. There is absolutely no way that Fluttershy would have been able to reform Discord in season 1.

 

 

 

 

OHH!!!! I just realized.

 

Fluttershy in Putting Your Hoof Down is the PERFECT example of her acting on the opposing vices and not acting in her element at all - until the very end of the episode. In the beginning, she acts in Servility. She is constantly being pushed around by others and letting them do what they want. Fluttershy wants this changed, but instead of going to the top of the pyramid, she walks to the other side. It isn't until the end of the episode when she has her breakdown and she stands up to Iron Will - kindly - that she finds the ladder to the top of the pyramid and starts to climb.

Betrayal is an excellent Discordian word.

 

Deceptiveness, though, is still on the Betrayal corner of the pyramid, IMO. Plus it fits better in the Honesty pyramid (of course we all know that this sort of stuff in reality blends together, but for the sake of this topic my intention is to keep them separated).

 

The less-obvious vice is supposed to be the one that LOOKS like is the right and moral thing to be doing, but really it's almost equally bad to the obvious vice. For example, the difference between being Generous and being Prodigal is this: one who is Prodigal will throw his money at anything and be wasteful with it. The prodigal person says, "I'm not holding onto my money and begging for more of it. I can't be greedy because money just isn't that important." But the Generous person says, "My money is valuable, and because I recognize just how valuable it is, I am going to share it with someone else who needs it, because it is my way of showing love to another person."

 

Make sense?

Of course, it makes perfect sense. I see what your getting at when it comes to deception, betrayal, and loyalty. Since they all tie into one another.

[SCS 7,537]

Your post is fascinating. I never considered the idea that morality could be mapped out in a two dimensional manner. This makes me want to go read some philosophy books.

 

Now, here are my ideas for the opposing vices for each Element of Harmony. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding the concept of opposing vices in a two dimensional mapping of moral concepts.

 

Laughter: The left opposing vice could be humorlessness, and the right opposing vice could be insensitivity. On one extreme, you could be humorless, and never be willing to laugh or to have fun. On the other extreme, you could not have the emotional maturity to understand when it is and when it is not appropriate to laugh, resulting in insensitivity toward others.

 

Kindness: The left opposing vice could be obsequiousness, which is also the left opposing vice for patience. The right opposing vice could be cruelty. On one extreme, you could be too kind to the point where you allow others to take advantage of you, and you submit to whatever another person wants, regardless of what you think about it. On the other extreme, you could be cruel to others, and actively seek to hurt them mentally and/or physically. 

 

Honesty: The left opposing vice could be dishonesty, and the right opposing vice could be tactlessness. On one extreme, you could lie. On the other extreme, you could be too honest to the point where you do not think about the feelings of others, and therefore say things in a tactless manner.

 

Generosity: I'll go with what the article on Aleteia said for this one. The left opposing vice could be greediness, and the right opposing vice could be prodigality. On one extreme, you could become too attached to worldly possessions. On the other extreme, you could spend your wealth carelessly, always thinking that more would come to you.

 

Loyalty: The left opposing vice could be disloyalty, and the right opposing vice could be servitude. On one extreme, you could be disloyal. You could only care about yourself, and your own wants and needs. On the other extreme, you could be too loyal to someone or something to the point of following them in blind obedience, without logically analyzing what you are expected to do, regardless of what it is.

 

Magic: Here, I will interpret the meaning of the Element of Magic as the spark of love that unites us all. The left opposing vice could be division, and the right opposing vice could be self-neglect. On one extreme, you could allow yourself to live in a disharmonious manner, creating and exacerbating divisions between yourself and others. On the other extreme, you could focus on uniting yourself with others too much to the point where you neglect to love and care for yourself as well.

 

The understanding of Elements of Harmony as golden means is more proof to me of how essential balance is in life.