Whos Fault was it, Fluttershy Or Iron Will?

[Inactive01 5,299]

I'd attribute the incident to both characters in all honesty, but the greater blame has to be placed on Iron Will. Iron Will teaches ponies to be assertive with the wrong methods. Pushing, shoving, and the like. He also called Fluttershy up to the stage even if that was against what Iron Will taught. At first, Fluttershy does the exact opposite of what Iron Will wants, but Iron Will eventually shows her what 'true assertion' is, which like I said was too extreme.

 

Nonetheless, Fluttershy does have some blame in this. She took Iron Will's advice really well, and that wasn't something she had to do. She liked what Iron Will was teaching and she bought into it, up to the point she hurts even her friends. Her inhibitions cease, and she becomes a monster as a result. Still, I'd place the blame on Iron Will because he forced Fluttershy up to the stage. You can also argue that Fluttershy chose to go to Iron Will's sessions, but how can you blame her? She's been pushed around so much and is so bereft of confidence, she'll try anything, even a seminar on assertion, to become more assertive. Doesn't excuse her from it, but it's just a food for thought.

[Anadu Kune 668]

Actually no, it doesn't make you a jerk, agressive maybe but not a jerk. Just because a person can't take a joke doesn't make him a jerk. Some people are really nice but have a lot of limits like How Iron Will was

Well his lessons as a whole really do. If you follow his lessons you will rage at someone for laughing at you for pretty much any reason. You will never apologize and instead criticize the other party. If another party cause you to lose anything you should totally let lose all of your anger upon them. If someone is standing in your way rather than asking them to move you shock demonstrate aggression towards them. Sounds like an impolite jerk to me. Would you really tolerate such behavior? I know I wouldn't. Again I have to restate that all his lessons are about intimidation and domination not just asserting ones self.

[Galen 1,354]

Well his lessons as a whole really do. If you follow his lessons you will rage at someone for laughing at you for pretty much any reason. You will never apologize and instead criticize the other party. If another party cause you to lose anything you should totally let lose all of your anger upon them. If someone is standing in your way rather than asking them to move you shock demonstrate aggression towards them. Sounds like an impolite jerk to me. Would you really tolerate such behavior? I know I wouldn't. Again I have to restate that all his lessons are about intimidation and domination not just asserting ones self.

 

I could be wrong but I think you're basing your opinion on Iron Will's teachings based almost entirely on Fluttershy's execution and practice of said teachings. However, I do ask you to compare how Iron Will dealt with others with how Fluttershy did after that one session she went to. Iron Will never hurt anyone. He certainly did not hurt Pinkie Pie and Rarity when they tried to stop him from seeing Fluttershy. As opposed to Fluttershy herself who kicked two caravans loaded with trash on two other mares, splashed water on her gardener, pushed other ponies around when in line at Sugarcube Corner and getting a taxi, and even throwing a tourist all the way to the top of a tower. Iron Will also didn't force the door to Fluttershy's house.

 

As I said before, if the roles were reversed, Fluttershy certainly would have, and Fluttershy would not have taken no for an answer if someone refused to pay her for something (at least before she understood what she did wrong). Iron Will, on the other hand, kept his promise about dissatisfied customers not having to pay anything and even learned something from the experience himself. I cannot see him as a villain after that. Fluttershy very appropriately realized she's been the monster instead when she realized how hurtful she was, especially when she attacked Pinkie's and Rarity's feelings directly by insulting them.

[Ihei 713]

Fluttershy, DEFINITELY. She was the reason why she went overboard, since it was her choice to become assertive.

 

And Iron Will was probably just suggesting things to be more assertive.

[spacestorm 183]

On the one hand it's true that since she is an adult she's practically fully responsible for her actions.
But we must also take into account her mental state. She probably was close to depression or felt down then (ultimately thanks to Angel). I don't know if any of you ever experienced this state - then you don't think or act rationally. In a depressed state you can have some thoughts, through which you can even stop trusting friends. You can then read wrongly the intentions of your friends and even suspect them of various bad things - like Fluttershy thought that Pinkie Pie mocks of her while they talked in Sugarcube Corner.

You wonder why she was a jerk towards other ponies? I don't - after all they themselves cruelly treated her earlier. Perhaps it seemed to her that everypony are doing it out of spite which further fueled her anger.
Perhaps she was in such a state that she only could retreat into her shell (as she did at the end when she realized what she had become) or spit out all the hidden emotions. A third option was help from her friends which was too late.
Therefore, I think she shouldn't be fully blamed for losing control. It's something completely different to a conscious actions.
For all those reasons, I'm more inclined to assign blame to Iron Will.

Edited July 23, 2013 by spacestorm

[Argumedies 1,748]

On the one hand it's true that since she is an adult she's practically fully responsible for her actions.

But we must also take into account her mental state. She probably was close to depression or felt down then (ultimately thanks to Angel). I don't know if any of you ever experienced this state - then you don't think or act rationally. In a depressed state you can have some thoughts, through which you can even stop trusting friends. You can then read wrongly the intentions of your friends and even suspect them of various bad things

I have... and its nothing more then a lame excuse for lack of responsibility of ones actions. Imho

 

But I don't believe she had depression. Under confidante in herself yes, but not depression. And definitely not afterwards.

 

 

- like Fluttershy thought that Pinkie Pie mocks of her while they talked in Sugarcube Corner.

You wonder why she was a jerk towards other ponies? I don't - after all they themselves cruelly treated her earlier. Perhaps it seemed to her that everypony are doing it out of spite which further fueled her anger.

Perhaps she was in such a state that she only could retreat into her shell (as she did at the end when she realized what she had become) or spit out all the hidden emotions. A third option was help from her friends which was too late.

Therefore, I think she shouldn't be fully blamed for losing control. It's something completely different to a conscious actions.

For all those reasons, I'm more inclined to assign blame to Iron Will.

I agree, she's not "fully" to blame but neither is Iron Will.

He opened the door that she desided to step threw.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Argumedies

[Galen 1,354]

On the one hand it's true that since she is an adult she's practically fully responsible for her actions.

But we must also take into account her mental state. She probably was close to depression or felt down then (ultimately thanks to Angel). I don't know if any of you ever experienced this state - then you don't think or act rationally. In a depressed state you can have some thoughts, through which you can even stop trusting friends. You can then read wrongly the intentions of your friends and even suspect them of various bad things - like Fluttershy thought that Pinkie Pie mocks of her while they talked in Sugarcube Corner.

You wonder why she was a jerk towards other ponies? I don't - after all they themselves cruelly treated her earlier. Perhaps it seemed to her that everypony are doing it out of spite which further fueled her anger.

Perhaps she was in such a state that she only could retreat into her shell (as she did at the end when she realized what she had become) or spit out all the hidden emotions. A third option was help from her friends which was too late.

Therefore, I think she shouldn't be fully blamed for losing control. It's something completely different to a conscious actions.

For all those reasons, I'm more inclined to assign blame to Iron Will.

 

What you say does make sense. However, I still can't place the blame on Iron Will because he had no way of knowing the kind of stress and mental anguish Fluttershy was going through, nor did he really have a reason to presume that was the case. He taught her the way he'd have taught anyone when she really needed a different sort of treatment and guidance. There's no way Iron Will could have known that.

[POGM Pinkie Pie 1]

I think iron will helped to make fluttershy how she was, but it was fluttershy who lost it. She should of been more of control of herself there

[Astrobrony 655]

To be fair, Iron Will should have included when and when not to be assertive in his lessons. With that said, it was still mainly Fluttershy's fault for taking things all the way up to bullying other ponies.

[Anadu Kune 668]

I could be wrong but I think you're basing your opinion on Iron Will's teachings based almost entirely on Fluttershy's execution and practice of said teachings. However, I do ask you to compare how Iron Will dealt with others with how Fluttershy did after that one session she went to. Iron Will never hurt anyone. He certainly did not hurt Pinkie Pie and Rarity when they tried to stop him from seeing Fluttershy. As opposed to Fluttershy herself who kicked two caravans loaded with trash on two other mares, splashed water on her gardener, pushed other ponies around when in line at Sugarcube Corner and getting a taxi, and even throwing a tourist all the way to the top of a tower. Iron Will also didn't force the door to Fluttershy's house.

 

As I said before, if the roles were reversed, Fluttershy certainly would have, and Fluttershy would not have taken no for an answer if someone refused to pay her for something (at least before she understood what she did wrong). Iron Will, on the other hand, kept his promise about dissatisfied customers not having to pay anything and even learned something from the experience himself. I cannot see him as a villain after that. Fluttershy very appropriately realized she's been the monster instead when she realized how hurtful she was, especially when she attacked Pinkie's and Rarity's feelings directly by insulting them.

I'm actually basing it on how both demonstrated his teachings. In his first demonstration Iron Will had someone walk in Fluttershy's path, there was no context other than a person blocking your path. Fluttershy when being forced into the goat apologizes( a polite proper initial response) at this point Iron Will states not to be sorry, be assertive "never apologize when you can criticize". That's a horrible thing to teach. In that context being assertive means never having to apologize as to do so would mean you are a doormat. We never see anything else taught, but given that he seems to base his teachings off of sound bites it would be logical to conclude he does teach in the same manner demonstrated. As far as all the info in the episode indicates Fluttershy was doing a great job implementing Iron Wills teachings which were bad. Lets take one of his sayings and examine it for a second. "You laugh at me I wrath at you". When would this ever be a proper response? It encourages an impulsive response as well as intimadating and dominating the third party. 

 

Iron Will physically handled Pinkie and Rarity a number of times. Picking them up and dropping them. Then tossing Pinkie  over a ledge into a puddle of mud. He then makes threats of violence to Fluttershy upon her initial refusal. Everything Iron will himself demonstrated was intimidation and domination not being properly assertive. He used his physical size and strength as well as his loud voice to get his way. Do you really think he wouldn't have busted into to Fluttershy's house had she not come out? I certainly see it as a possibility considering his behavior and his teachings. Based off his behavior and Fluttershy's utilization of his teachings it would seem Iron Will teachings encourage an impulsive response that is used to intimidate or dominate the other pony. Whether that be criticizing other ponies life style or personality or throwing a pony in the mud doesn't matter. What does matter is that its wrong. Both parties are wrong here, the difference is one was taught act that way and realized it was wrong. The only thing Iron Will did right was knocking on the door and keeping his initial promise. 

 

One of the things this episode seemed to try to convey was that Iron Will himself was not being properly assertive. Fluttershy was the one who best demonstrated how to be properly assertive in the end. She wasn't overly aggressive she simply said no and stated her point. 

[Argumedies 1,748]

I'm actually basing it on how both demonstrated his teachings. In his first demonstration Iron Will had someone walk in Fluttershy's path, there was no context other than a person blocking your path. Fluttershy when being forced into the goat apologizes( a polite proper initial response) at this point Iron Will states not to be sorry, be assertive "never apologize when you can criticize". That's a horrible thing to teach. In that context being assertive means never having to apologize as to do so would mean you are a doormat. We never see anything else taught, but given that he seems to base his teachings off of sound bites it would be logical to conclude he does teach in the same manner demonstrated. As far as all the info in the episode indicates Fluttershy was doing a great job implementing Iron Wills teachings which were bad. Lets take one of his sayings and examine it for a second. "You laugh at me I wrath at you". When would this ever be a proper response? It encourages an impulsive response as well as intimadating and dominating the third party.

 

Iron Will physically handled Pinkie and Rarity a number of times. Picking them up and dropping them. Then tossing Pinkie over a ledge into a puddle of mud. He then makes threats of violence to Fluttershy upon her initial refusal. Everything Iron will himself demonstrated was intimidation and domination not being properly assertive. He used his physical size and strength as well as his loud voice to get his way. Do you really think he wouldn't have busted into to Fluttershy's house had she not come out? I certainly see it as a possibility considering his behavior and his teachings. Based off his behavior and Fluttershy's utilization of his teachings it would seem Iron Will teachings encourage an impulsive response that is used to intimidate or dominate the other pony. Whether that be criticizing other ponies life style or personality or throwing a pony in the mud doesn't matter. What does matter is that its wrong. Both parties are wrong here, the difference is one was taught act that way and realized it was wrong. The only thing Iron Will did right was knocking on the door and keeping his initial promise.

 

One of the things this episode seemed to try to convey was that Iron Will himself was not being properly assertive. Fluttershy was the one who best demonstrated how to be properly assertive in the end. She wasn't overly aggressive she simply said no and stated her point.

You are correct but this is only half the picture. You cannot deny Fluttershy's roll in these events. It was her decision to use methods that would clearly undermine logic and reasoning regardless of the source.

 

We all make mistakes and ponys and minotaurs are no different

[Toa of Ponies 259]

I don't think it was Iron Will Nor Fluttershy's fault, I think the primary antagonists of this episode were Pinkie and Rarity. They were trying to Help Her sure, but Changing who you are is not a great lesson either.

 

Fluttershy could of easily gone to RD but she didn't and it boils down to Pinkie and Rarity.

 

Fluttershy is Fluttershy and Iron Will is Iron Will, it's just who they are :3

[Sunny Fox 5,950]

I think this is something to keep in mind. When New!Fluttershy first went out, she said, "I feel ready to 'Attack the day', as Iron Will says." Now "attack" is a rather telling word, and it is an aggressive word, not an assertive word. An assertive version of this would be "Seize the day", which I think we can all agree is a more positive assertive message to it. Nor is "Never apologize when you can criticize" in any way assertive, which we see him say.

 

Only a bad crop can grow from bad soil, and Iron Will's teachings were  "bad soil", as far as I can see.

 

 

I don't think it was Iron Will Nor Fluttershy's fault, I think the primary antagonists of this episode were Pinkie and Rarity. They were trying to Help Her sure, but Changing who you are is not a great lesson either.

 

Fluttershy could of easily gone to RD but she didn't and it boils down to Pinkie and Rarity.

 

Fluttershy is Fluttershy and Iron Will is Iron Will, it's just who they are :3

Just... no. The only thing they did was try to help their friend be more assertive. And their lessons, if you wish to label them with something bad, were about manipulation and trickery, neither of which is anything like aggression. Rainbow Dash also told Fluttershy to be more assertive in "Sonic Rainboom" and it didn't lead to Bitchershy. Rarity states that "[Fluttershy] received some bad advice from that Iron Will character", which the more I think about, the more I agree with.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Full Spectrum

[Argent_Bluesky 1]

Iron Will should not be pictured as a villain or even as an antagonist.  He did his job fine, and showed the proper way to be assertive (although he could've tempered it with courtesy).  He even gives Fluttershy her money back.

[Pinkie4eeeever 38]

I don't think it's Fluttershy's or Iron Will's fault. I blame angel and the ponies who were mean to Fluttershy in the episode; that was probably the thing that pushed her to the point that she took Iron Will's lessons too far. The ponies in that episode were jerks.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Pinkie4eeeever

[They call me Loyalty 1,948]

I don't think it was her fault at all.

 

Even though Ironwill's methods were a little bit too much excessives. People like Fluttershy usually carry many difficulties for express themselves, which causes emotional overflows. So basically, they can't handle a difficulty situation without emotionally explode.

What I'm saying is that Fluttershy's heart is like a valve tightly closed, that means that, usually, she can only express just a little bit of her emotions even through big efforts, leading to accumulate emotions over pressure, during extended periods of time.

This kind of behaviour may have been caused due to her family (maybe dysfunctional) and her environment along her childhood (probably harmful) which I believe, was the reason why her heart closed as a natural reflex in a sensitive person.

So she needed to show how upset she was, so deal with the problem itself, forcing the preassure that leads to an emotional explotion, of which she had no control at all. She couldn't otherwise.

Here some theories:

Dysfunctional family may cause -> Lack of development in her confidence, which lead to -> Lack of will to push herself to get better, causing -> Poor flying skills -> that may be the reason why his childhood environment took her as a point to make fun of her -> This may be the reason why her heart get closed, becoming the Fluttershy that we actually knew at the show's beginning.


She mentioned being shy since her childhood, so I think the problem might be her family. Maybe she never hasn't had a father, just her mother, which I think may be reason for such overdeveloped sensitivity.

 

A "professional" like Ironwill should have been noticed this, but hey!

Just headcanon this last part.
 

 

Sorry for my english. It's not my first language.

Edited July 25, 2013 by They call me Loyalty

[spacestorm 183]

I have... and its nothing more then a lame excuse for lack of responsibility of ones actions. Imho

 

But I don't believe she had depression. Under confidante in herself yes, but not depression. And definitely not afterwards.

I don't know If I choose/understand English terms/definitions well.

Maybe not depression in the medical / psychiatric meaning, but certainly she had some state of mental breakdown.

 

Maybe, but she finally took responsibility and locked herself in her house to isolate from the world.

But when we talk about blame then it's not that easy matter. I don't know if I'm good at reading and interpreting someone's emotions and behaviour. There is problem that her actions were too much exaggerated. I've been in similar mental state and I had similar thoughts, but I never gone overboard like she did. Therefore I can somewhat understand her behavior and I'm trying to explain why she acted like this (especially towards her friends). I just want to point out that relying only on her behavior bypassing her mental state isn't sufficient to assign the blame.

 

I'm not good at choosing examples, but maybe this will be ok.

If someone will really piss you off and you insult him badly or even hit him in response - then who is there more to blame? Of course you, because you should hold your emotions and show that you are smarter. But the situation won't be so obvious if you already will be mentally broken or angry then.

 

This kind of behaviour may have been caused due to her family (maybe dysfunctional) and her environment along her childhood (probably harmful) which I believe, was the reason why her heart closed as a natural reflex in a sensitive person.

Yes this may be related to her childhood when she was probably bullied by others - this scene from Hurricane Fluttershy when she is surrounded by eyes pointing at her. It showed how much she worry about what others think of her or how they see her and how much she is afraid to be ridiculed/humiliated, something like this does not come from nothing.

 

 

 

The more I analyze this issue and read other opinions, the less I blame her. Given the choice of only the two of them I choose Iron Will to blame for.

But how people above have pointed out, the blame should be spread to more ones.

• Angel - it's obvious, his unforgivable behaviour and abusing her which ultimately pushed her to the edge.
• Rarity and Pinkie Pie - their first lessons also weren't about assertiveness at all.
• Oher ponies/residents of the Ponyville - most of them treated her very badly - so I'm not surprised that she was so rude and aggressive to them, I think that many of them deserved such treatment from new Fluttershy.

[Umbral Noir 1,556]

Iron Will's a salesbull(?). He didn't want to make her into a monster. He was doing his job, and that was to make ponies more assertive. It just seems that Fluttershy took his advice a little too far, so I'd say it was her fault, if anypony was to be blamed.

[SasQ 1,376]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I first saw the end of that episode. There's a broken logic there. Although Fluttershy was OK with using her right for full refund (she could do it even if Iron Will didn't tell her about that possibility, because it's her customer right), in this particular case there was a catch: to reclaim her full refund, she had to oppose Iron Will himself! A flippin' Minotaur, with muscles even on his eyelashes!  Could there possibly be anything more assertive than that?  So if she could stand up to him and demand her full refund, she's 100% assertive, which proves that Iron Will has succeeded with training her in the first place Nice paradox we've got here  Moreover, Pinkie Pie agreed, which means logic has turned upside down long time ago

 

He doesn't need to be assertive there, he's a Minotaur with bulging muscles that could probably knock a pony to Cloudsdale.

 

Bwahaah I cracked! ;D Brohoof for that!

 

But let's get back to the fault stuff...

I very like this episode, because it's another example of the basic principle of the Pony World in action: the balance of the opposites.

 

 

It shows (again) how anypony can become evil when going too far overboard and falling upon the dark side. That no pony is good or bad by nature, or that it's their nature to have both these sides inside of them. And it's their choice which side they choose. Every stick has two ends (except slingshots ;-J ), assertiveness being no exception. It can be good or bad, depending on how one uses it. And it is often the case that when you start from one extremity, you will end up in the other extreme when you try to change the way you are. But this is part of the process! One needs to learn both good and bad to be able to choose the golden middle, that is, Harmony. Only then one can be sure that his/her choice is right.

 

I also like how the writers played it from the psychological perspective: Notice how Flutthershy starts speaking about herself in third person, differentiating to "Old Fluttershy" and "New Fluttershy". This is an example of installing a new personality which is in conflict with the old one already there. Calling herself in third person shows that she doesn't agree fully with her new personality and cannot associate with it enough (if she did, she would say from first person/pony, as being herself). It's like saying: "This is not me, it's the other Fluttershy which is speaking now". This is the classical Jekyl vs. Hyde (bright side vs. dark side) personality conflict in action. You can always tell which Fluttershy is currently in control of her body by listening carefully to what she says and how. But this is also an indication that the dark side hasn't taken full control yet (because then she would speak from first person again, becoming evil herself and identifying with it).

 

It really is Fluttershy's fault that she went overboard and turned herself into a meanie, because Iron Will haven't forced her to do all that naughty stuff to her friends. He could give her advices, but it's her decision and responsibility about what to do with them. She's in charge with herself. Aaand, she openly admitted her own guilt in the episode  so case closed. But the other thing is whether she learned something from her failure or not. This is more important.

 

I've never considered Iron Will to be a villain. He's just passing by. He doesn't do anything bad nor do any harm to anypony. Everyone can travel from town to town and teach others some way of living, but it's others' choice to listen to him or not. He is not forcing anypony to follow his advices. He has a sense of honor, since he openly guarantees full refund if anypony were unsatisfied with his training, and keeps his promise even if it's uncomfortable for him or despite he doesn't agree with it.

 

 

 

Fluttershy made a mistake in being mean to other ponies, thinking that being assertive means that you have to be a jerk, which isn't true.

 

Exactly. And this is another example of good knowledge of psychology in the show: she might see assertiveness as something related to being a jerk from her own perspective (maybe she sees other ponies being more assertive than her as some rude jerks ), so she reflects her views on that matter in her acting as a jerk when trying to be assertive.

 

 

 

Iron Will only uncorked her own penned up frustrations and emotions and she didn't know how to handle or control them.

 

That's right. I wouldn't describe it better.

 

 

 

My main question is why is iron will on the Chaos is Magic poster? I don't really think he belongs there.

 

Most of the characters don't belong there. Look, there's even Silver Spoon and Diamond Tiara there! C'mon!

 

There are many characters there which use rather Dark Magic, which is not the same as Chaos Magic. Chaos Magic is about the imbalance of the opposites, whatever the imbalance it is. It might overweight the Dark Magic or Bright Magic equally well. One example of when using Bright Magic can lead to chaos is when Twilight casts a love spell on her rag doll Smarty Pants I think that only Discord belongs there, as a true Master of Chaos.

Edited July 25, 2013 by SasQ

[Argumedies 1,748]

Oh Celestia help me, I'm gonna sound like my mother...

 

If someone tells you to go jump off a bridge, would you do it?

 

Except for those with bungee cords and or suicidal tendencies, the answer would be.. no

 

Mistakes are made on both sides but to try and point to a direct point of origin is... well, pointless. The proverbial which came first, Scootaloo or the egg.

 

Just because someone gives you advise doesn't mean you have to act upon it... I can only show you the door, the decision to step through is on you

Edited July 25, 2013 by Argumedies

[Castle Bleck 19,334]

Fluttershy's; Iron Will didn't tell her to go on a rampage, just to defend herself against the sudden influx of jerks in Ponyville, but alas, her social awkwardness caused her to misinterpret, and thus go into overload.

[crazitaco 596]

It really was Fluttershy's fault. I mean, how evil can a guy who goes GROCERY SHOPPING be? He just makes his living spreading advice about what he thinks works. He didn't know a better way to be assertive without being intimidating, as he demonstrates when he decides to add "no means no" to his teaching list and simply wants to use the most effective methods that provide the best results from his clients. So yeah, he spreads bad advice, but no one is forcing you to follow it. Therefore, it was still Fluttershy's decision to accept his advice. She could've realized right away that its not worth hurting others just to be assertive, but she so desperately wanted to be assertive that she did it anyway.

I think that there is a bitch within everyone, and fluttershy's inner bitch is quite powerful, which is why she doesn't give it any leash.

Specifically though, it was Angel bunny and all the assholes of Ponyville who were to blame. They are the one's who pushed her to such desperation, after all. If they hadn't been assholes, she wouldn't have felt the need to change herself to such a degree. And i think in her bitch-fit, she was also subconsciously taking out her pent-up aggression on the city and serving them their well deserved just-desserts.

Edited July 25, 2013 by crazitaco

[Anadu Kune 668]

You are correct but this is only half the picture. You cannot deny Fluttershy's roll in these events. It was her decision to use methods that would clearly undermine logic and reasoning regardless of the source.

 

We all make mistakes and ponys and minotaurs are no different

I never did deny Fluttershy's role. In my initial post I said there should be an option for both. Both parties set this scenario into motion. However I lean the blame more over to Iron Will as he took advantage of Fluttershy to further advertise his horrible assertiveness training. A training course that teaches you to be a jerk. 

 

There's also the role of examining Fluttershy's perspective in this. She has had little to no control over anything in her life. She's in this constant state of nervousness and self doubt, always underestimating and underselling herself. She thinks of herself as weak and helpless. She is trying to change that and finally decides enough is enough so she takes this new assertiveness training course. Fluttershy doesn't really understand how to be assertive so she listens to Iron Will's lessons. To her surprise they actually work. For once in her life she has control over the things around her. For once in her life she doesn't feel helpless and pathetic. So of course she is going to get a bit swept up in it. She's going to follow Iron Will's lessons to the letter because they are the only thing that has worked for her. When Rarity and Applejack try to tell her she's doing something wrong she cant accept that. She instead follows Iron Wills Lesson. Its only when she hurts her friends that she realizes what she was actually doing. Rather than blame Iron Will's teachings she again attacks herself. Claiming she is a monster and locks herself up as such.

 

Fluttershy perceives herself to be the problem. She was doing something wrong to begin with. Iron Will reinforces that further and teaches her the "right" way. It works so Fluttershy abandons her old way of doing things in favor of the better new Fluttershy. Now instead of inwardly belittling herself she loudly outwardly does so labeling it as the old Fluttershy.

 

It seems to me the majority is far too quick to lay the sole blame on Fluttershy. She was essentially manipulated and taught the absolute wrong way of behaving in a more assertive manner. She had no real understanding of it.

[Pixelish 12]

I think they're both at wrong, but Iron Will is the one to blame, when she was at the lesson, he thought her to yell and push that guy over when he was in front of her, he taught her to deal with the situation then tell the pony off, and not only did he encourage bad behavior, once he heard about her running a muck and causing havoc in Ponyville, he went to collect his money as he was happy with what she had been doing, and he was hoping she was happy.

 

So to me, the one to blame for her poor behavior is most defiantly Iron Will.

[SCS 7,536]

The situation is too complex to blame on one person or another. Besides, who's fault it is is not relevant to the lesson inherent in the situation. 

 

Iron Will gave bad advice. It is wrong for him to promote negative ideas as effective and mature ways of being assertive.

 

Fluttershy made the choice to put aside her kind nature temporarily and adopt a negative attitude. While she was influenced by Iron Will, she still made that choice through her own free will. 

 

So, I say that both of them played a role in bringing about the negative circumstances that transpired in Putting My Hoof Down. Thankfully, Fluttershy learned from her mistakes, and went on to be a pony that was both kind and assertive - which is what truly matters.