Has MLP Gone Downhill

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

I don't know where some people keep getting this from as the episode quite clearly showed us that Twilight isn't capable of taking Tirek down on her own.

 

 

She was at least given the opportunity to engage in battle with him while the mane five were simply trapped like helpless kittens, relying on her to save them. 

 

 

 

ALL of the mane 6 ended up taking down Tirek via Rainbow Power Magic.

 

Which was mostly an afterthought at best, certainly not more noteworthy than Twilight's death battle with him. 

[Megas 27,732]

If you don't like darkness in any shape or form, then this is, and never was, the show for you. Lesson Zero, Party of One, The Best Night Ever (Fluttershy). Why does it make it any less enjoyable for you if the stakes are higher and a more tension filled conflict is established.

That's an incredibly ridiculous statement

 

Thing is, while you make a good point that dark elements an imagery have been present in the show in the past, you're forgetting one important thing:

 

It's not the show's main draw.

 

The majority of fans don't like the show because of dark imagery, elements, or storylines. Fans liked it because it's innocence, it's cuteness, it's uplifting feel and happiness(of course brought to light by stronger writing)

 

Much like what I said in the whole "Adventure vs SoL" debate, much like Adventure storylines, darker storylines do have a place in the show, and they are more than welcome when they show up, but they aren't why many people like the show, and I know I'm not alone in saying that

[LeafFerret 3,382]

Even though the tone of Season 4 was different than the earlier seasons, I found the the later season highly enjoyable. I actually consider Season 4 to be subjectively superior to Season 1 and Season 3, but nicely tied with Season 2. The departure from a simpler approach does not hinder my enjoyment anymore than Game of Thrones hinders my enjoyment of Star Trek. I have this odd ability to compartmentalize elements of any media and long or short form narrative series. It also helps that nostalgia rarely becomes a major factor in my enjoyment of any IP. I often wonder if some people have an association with the earlier seasons and the beginnings of the fandom and are influenced by their perceived loss of a sense of discovery with one. 

 

Anyway, I vote for the better. I am also curious as to the direction of Season 5. With what we know so far, I am certain it will further alienate those fans who pine for simplicity of the Faust era. 

 

 

 

 

Season Five Spoiler

 

 

 

I don't mean a one off episode, I mean a few episodes without them.

[The Coffee Pony 1,390]

Okay, now here is where I steamroll every argument that Twilight can go solo.

 

 

She was at least given the opportunity to engage in battle with him while the mane five were simply trapped like helpless kittens, relying on her to save them. 

 

 

Which was mostly an afterthought at best, certainly not more noteworthy than Twilight's death battle with him. 

 

 

If she had won the fight then your case would be sound but the fact remains that she still LOST that fight and needed the power of THREE PRINCESSES before she could even face him, so that point is rendered moot. As for the Mane 6 rendered helpless, this was a justified case as the Mane 6 had been drained of their magic so really they couldn't do much. Had Twilight fought him on her own she would have been rendered helpless as well. Point is further rendered moot by the fact that she ultimately had her magic drained and was rendered helpless at the end of that fight.

 

Whether you thought Rainbow Power was an afterthought or not you are still wrong because if it wasn't for her and her friends unlocking it Tirek would have won and Equestria would have fallen into ruins.

 

As a bonus, your point is further rendered moot as after that fight Twilight Sparkle herself was rendered helpless against the Dazzlings. During that battle it was actually Sunset Shimmer that saved the day in the end.

 

Nowhere in this entire franchise has it been shown that Twilight can save Equestria on her own without any aid whatsoever. Let's look at the battles against all her major foes, shall we?

 

• Nightmare Moon - It took all of the Mane 6 to take her down. They shared an equal victory.
• Nightmare Moon round 2/Nightmare Rarity and the Nightmare Forces - This is a victory that took 5 of the mane 6, spike, Celestia, Luna and the entirety Ponyville in order to win.
• Discord - All of the Mane 6 nearly lost this one, even Twilight ended up getting Discorded, it took Celestia's intervention to get her to recover and get her friends out of that discorded state so they can take him down.
• (If we count Keep Calm and Flutter On) Discord round 2 - The victory goes to Fluttershy as she's the one that reformed him.
• Queen Chrysalis - The Mane 6 LOST this fight. The real victory went to Cadence and Shining Armor
• Queen Chrysalis - Now this is the only instance where you can say Twilight won but it was only by a fluke. At that point in the story Chrysalis had her completely cornered and rendered helpless. If it wasn't for that comet, Twilight would have lost and her friends would have been drained to husks by the changelings. This was a battle that was only won by sheer dumb luck.
• Sombra -The actual victory went to Spike.
• Sunset Shimmer - Took Twilight and the Human versions of the Mane 6 to win.
• Mirror Celestia and Mirror Luna - The Mane 6 didn't win. Mirror Sombra won this battle by sacrificing himself.
• Tirek - Twilight lost the first time around even though she had the power of four Alicorns counting herself. It took all of the Mane 6 to unlock that rainbow power and beat Tirek.
• The Dazzlings - Twilight and the Human mane 5 nearly lost. It was Sunset Shimmer that actually saved the day.

Edited March 1, 2015 by The Coffee Pony

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

Okay, now here is where I steamroll every argument that Twilight can go solo.

 

That's actually not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that I really don't want to see the writers deliberately putting her above the mane five yet again by way of rendering them useless, even if it's only temporary. 

 

 

 

If she had won the fight then your case would be sound but the fact remains that she still LOST that fight and needed the power of THREE PRINCESSES before she could even face him, so that point is rendered moot.

 

Actually, she didn't lose. He was the one who stopped the fight because he realized that he was getting his ass handed to him. It's not hard to see who between the two of them was taking a bigger beating. 

 

 

 

As for the Mane 6 rendered helpless, this was a justified case as the Mane 6 had been drained of their magic so really they couldn't do much.

 

 

Because that really needed to happen, didn't it? It's not like the episode could have been written in such a way where the mane five actually don't get drained of magic, right? It's not like Twilight's solo battle could have included them, right? Nah, absolutely not. 

 

Bottom line is, the more this show tries to hit me over the head with why Twilight should be my "best pony", the more I'm just going to end up disliking her. 

[TheJLeeTeam 914]

Why don't we just enjoy watching instead of arguing so much?

[Mesme Rize 15,685]

Why don't we just enjoy watching instead of arguing so much?

 

Don't think about it too much. Aslong as you enjoy it, everything is fine.

Let them argue, if it gives them some sort of satisfaction.

[The Coffee Pony 1,390]

Don't think about it too much. Aslong as you enjoy it, everything is fine.

Let them argue, if it gives them some sort of satisfaction.

 

Not really arguing so much as it is debate. There is a difference.

[hip-indeed 304]

I'd say, for me personally, even though I LOVE the whole show and think Season 4 was great, anything after Season 1 still lacks a bit of some kind of magic, some kind of spark that was unique to that season.  It was just the right mix of cartoony and fun with sweet and soothing, and it'd be nearly impossible to beat as my favorite season, unless the very same team, Faust and all, were able to make a new one some day.

 

That being said, Season 2 was still great, 4 was similar in quality and 3 was definitely fine.  I just feel the ever-increasing level of zany Saturday-morning-cartooniness is... well, while not wholly unwelcome, and while making the show even more inviting to young boys and not just young girls, and possibly an ever-broader fanbase in general, it just lacks something wonderful that Season 1 had for me.  Add onto that the sometimes downright silly levels of fanservice these days and over-the-top obvious cash-in weird Hasbro decisions like alitwi, Equestria Girls, Rainbow Power and now Cutie Mark Magic and it's becoming a bit of a mess.  Still a good mess, though, and a mess I'll love 'till the very end.

[Sobana 100]

I wouldn't say downhill, more like changed. In season one the characters had a more innocent childlike behavior. The target audience is getting older so they made the characters more mature to keep up with them. It's evolving.

[Megas 27,732]

Why don't we just enjoy watching instead of arguing so much?

That's what the pony hiatus does to people

[Sidral Mundet 1,666]

I think we can all agree on one thing: The animation has vastly improved!  Say what you want but some of the visuals of Season 4 blow Season 1 out of the water.

 

But as for the content of the show, for me it's not gone downhill or improved, it simply changed.   I think it has to do with the fact that the show as become a little more story focused over character focused.  In season 1 we has something like 7:3 Character v Story focus for the episodes, where as in Season 4 it's the reverse, but the upside being we already have well established characters to build the stories off of, while Season 1 was more about establishing these characters.  But that's not to say there weren't story focused episodes in Sesaon 1 or character focused ones in Season 4.  

 

That being said I do have an issue with the latter seasons, that being the underdevelopment of Equestria itself. I know the show's not going to delve into politics anytime soon, but I feel the world has some holes in it that the writers are not addressing, like how much political power does Twilight have?  Are there any ways for regular citizens to participate in the governing of Equestria? Are there any ramifications for Tirek's attack on Equestria?

Basically I feel that the world is not as developed as it should be for the more epic types of stories the writers are starting to pull off. 

 

But back on track I think the show is still doing great as it always has been.

Edited March 2, 2015 by sidral159

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

Well...hmm. I guess it's all subjective. I don't really think about the show in those terms--"going downhill." But I know it is changing. It's gained scope and maturity, but it's lost some of its consistency and charm. In the early seasons, we had character-driven plots and the letter-writing theme tying everything together. That's gone now, so most episodes are just a bunch of stuff happening. And Seasons 1 and 2 were written primarily with little girls in mind. Now they're trying to please little girls and us, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does change the tone somewhat. We started to see that in Season 3 with episodes like Magic Duel and it really threw me off.

 

I do know that since then, and especially since Twilicorn, I have been feeling increasingly disconnected. I do still enjoy the show and find plenty of positives, but the innocence and simplicity of episodes like Griffon the Brush-Off and The Best Night Ever--that's what really drew me to MLP, and I didn't feel much of that from Seasons 3 and 4. Everything is slowly losing focus, dissipating. EQG, the lost balance within the Mane 6 that the show doesn't want to acknowledge. I'm not against change in the show, but none of those are the changes I was looking forward to. I can't objectively say whether it's gone downhill or not. 

[Arctofire 227]

That's an incredibly ridiculous statement

 

Thing is, while you make a good point that dark elements an imagery have been present in the show in the past, you're forgetting one important thing:

 

It's not the show's main draw.

 

The majority of fans don't like the show because of dark imagery, elements, or storylines. Fans liked it because it's innocence, it's cuteness, it's uplifting feel and happiness(of course brought to light by stronger writing)

 

Much like what I said in the whole "Adventure vs SoL" debate, much like Adventure storylines, darker storylines do have a place in the show, and they are more than welcome when they show up, but they aren't why many people like the show, and I know I'm not alone in saying that

Yes, but it's always been part of the package. As you said, darker story lines have their place in this show, and I know their not the main focus. However, there has always been darkness in it, and this guy refuses to accept that.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Arctofire

[KatonRyu 1,033]

Honestly I think the show has gotten better overall. As much hate as Season 4 gets, I did like the overarching story element of the Tree of Harmony and I enjoyed most of the episodes. I think experimenting like the writers did is a great way to find out what works and what doesn't.

 

Some of the things people hold against the show (like Cadance being an alicorn) were mandated by Hasbro so those weren't creative decisions on the writers' part. I still think they worked well with what they were given, however.

 

For me the main criterium of a good episode is being able to enjoy it and thus far I've been able to enjoy every single episode, even though I do like some better than others. For me my list of lesser-liked episodes is fairly evenly distributed across seasons so I don't think it would be right to say the show has gone downhill.

 

All in all, I like the way things have progressed in the series and I hope to see more overarching story in Season 5. I do agree in part with @Dulset Tarn though, in the sense that I'd like them to bring back some of the non-story, non-pressure moments with the characters.

[Jangocoolguy 433]

Eh, I'd say it's more or less about the same.

[King Sejong 859]

   Harry Potter books got better as the readers got older, J.K. Rowling wrote her books to fit maturity of the readers, I started to read Harry Potter in my freshman year, by the time the series was complete I was in college. My Little Pony is going through the same evolution, noticeably there are going to be hiccups, not every Superman or Batman comic book was a marvel, we have to recognise that the writers of MLP are mortal, not demigods, we cannot possibly expect every episode to follow the pentameter, to have perfect pacing or staying confined to the plot, so if you are going to dislike an episode for not having good mechanics, try reading books instead of watching MLP, there you will see the mechanical flaws of the story, yet it makes you feel emotions, and builds an tolerance to mistakes, thus allowing you to take more from the story. I admire season four, I love the chances they take with Equestria and the ponies, it shows that they have a passion for their work, it is what drew us to My Little Pony in the first place, we have not even reached the peak of Friendship is Magic, so keep watching and keep feeling, we are growing up, we see things now we have never noticed before, and that goes for all of the seasons, but if you are going to think that MLP is going downhill because the flaws are overwhelming, then wise up and grow up, for flaws are all around us and in us, keep your chin up and don't let your ego keep you from enjoying My Little Pony.    

[Drunk Cheerilee 130]

It hasn't gotten worse, and it hasn't gotten better.

It will always be perfect, now and forever.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

   Harry Potter books got better as the readers got older, J.K. Rowling wrote her books to fit maturity of the readers, I started to read Harry Potter in my freshman year, by the time the series was complete I was in college. My Little Pony is going through the same evolution

I've heard this a million times, and no one has ever been able to explain why they think it's getting more mature rather than the more "for babies" attitude that I get from it. Note that "complex morals" is not an explanation unless you can at least provide examples.

 

 

 

if you are going to dislike an episode for not having good mechanics, try reading books instead of watching MLP, there you will see the mechanical flaws of the story, yet it makes you feel emotions, and builds an tolerance to mistakes, thus allowing you to take more from the story.

Okay please keep in mind that this is not meant as an insult, but how is that not the same as saying "You just need to lower your standards to enjoy it, ignore the flagrant problems and focus on THE FEELS"?

[Buck Testa 5,505]

In my opinion its gotten a LOT better since season one. Take Pinkie Pie for example, the original concept of her was that she could not really sing. I mean think about it, her songs made ponies annoyed, they started WARS, and they happened so frequently that it was almost jarring at times. Sure she had some good gags and some laugh out loud moments but she was far from a developed character then. 

 

Enter season 2 and beyond. Her songs went from juvenile sounding and usually just one minute time fillers to songs like The SMILE song, which still gives me chills to this day. While she is still a joke character when the spotlight isn't on her (though that isn't a good practice to get into) she more than makes up for it in episodes where she is the main focus. Pinkie Apple Pie, Maud Pie, Pinkie's Pride, and others with her as the lead are some of my favorite episodes to date because they show how dynamic she can be. 

 

How about Rainbow Dash? The original from season one would never of been able to have a scene like This because Lauren Faust didn't believe her capable of being a good sister to Scoots. 

 

All of them have had massive character development and its what I love best about the series, as well as the massive improvement in the quality of the songs that are in the show. Even Season three which is my least favorite season has some real amazing songs in it like A True True Friend or even Celestia's song 

[Dulset Tarn 441]

All of them have had massive character development and its what I love best about the series

Character development such as?

[Arctofire 227]

Character development such as?

I'm not the guy who you addressed, but over the years the characters have grown and changed. Sure, as someone pointed out on this thread, they could have gotten 'more' development, but they've still changed a lot.

 

Twilight used to freak out nearly all the time, was really obsessive, and just all around incredibly serious. Now, despite her being a princess, she seems to have calmed down a little. I do think this should have been made more apparent and had more time to play out, but it's still development all the same.

 

At the start of the show, Rainbow Dash was pure arrogance, used to be really insesitive, and just overall, was kind of a jerk. However, in Sonic Rainboom, she began to show signs of weakness and started to open up. In season 2, whilst being a idiot in some episodes, she actually starts to become one of Fluttershy's greatest supporters. She learns to try out new things, opens up more, and realizes that she can't get too braggy. By season 4, she was a friendly, sisterly figure to Scoots, and really does derserve her element of loyalty. A great arc if you ask me.

 

Discord's been reformed and has had a complex character conflict between his moral ideologies, and his friends.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Arctofire

[Buck Testa 5,505]

Character development such as?

What do you mean? Do you not see how improved they are from their original appearances in the in season one? How could you not?

[Dulset Tarn 441]

What do you mean? Do you not see how improved they are from their original appearances in the in season one? How could you not?

That is correct, explain.

[TheJLeeTeam 914]

At least MLP is still a lot better now than it was back in 2008 and 2009.