S05:E17 - Brotherhooves Social

[Zerbu 72]

Well, there goes gender equality in Equestria, with this episode. And I was almost sure that it will happen right after they show the teaser, but hoped they could avoid it and make it's like a joke or something, which is okay, I guess. But no, my hopes didn't come true.

Call me a SJW, but it's my opinion. It's not a crime to have one, right?

 

 

The fact that the judges didn't care that a stallion competed adds to the gender equality concept of the show. 

 

While I'm happy that anyone can compete, I can't help but be reminded of Dragon Quest, which had the atrocious moral of "if you're not a stereotype, you're really part of a different demographic" with interchangeably sexist and racist implications. At least Big Mac didn't agree to permanently change his title though.

 

The whole embarrassment of the dress gag could have been avoided if the judges had just told Big Mac they knew he was a stallion, and explained the rules, or if they didn't have any other ideas, they should have dropped the "we knew all along" line.

[Jeric 46,851]

But Rainbow's phrase, the fact that pretending to be a woman is something unworthy of a guy (as if being a woman is inferior compared to being a man), portraying stallions as being stronger than mares (even if in Equestria Games they competite together, and in Wonderbolts Academy they didn't have stallion/mare branches), metioning 'ponding muzzle' as something feminine, and some minor things do not add to the gender equality.

Just my opinion, nothing else.

Rainbows phrase is the reverse of the common sexist phrase (Don't think I'm going to go easy on you just because you are a girl.) The use of a reverse of that phase acts as a counter balance (and a nifty writing trick) and is arguably another point that RD doesn't fall prey to sexist stereotypes.

 

It's kinda brilliant. Lauren Faust would have approved of that girl power nod.

[arftbmrf 40]

While I'm happy that anyone can compete, I can't help but be reminded of Dragon Quest, which had the atrocious moral of "if you're not a stereotype, you're really part of a different demographic" with interchangeably sexist and racist implications. At least Big Mac didn't agree to permanently change his title though.

 

The whole embarrassment of the dress gag could have been avoided if the judges had just told Big Mac they knew he was a stallion, and explained the rules, or if they didn't have any other ideas, they should have dropped the "we knew all along" line.

Why does anyone have to be embarassed about it anyway? Is it emarassed to be a mare? Or is it a shame for a stallion to pretend as one? As if mares are inferior to stallions.

[Truffles 2,033]

But well, I LOVED that he didn't have a problem dressing up as a girl. What bothered me though was how much everypony else looked uncomfortable about Big Mac dressing up. I can't see why they had to make such weird faces and point it out so much.

 

OK, I will admit that if there is one flaw to the episode, then it's true it would have been more logical for the judges to simply tell him when he signed up they already knew who he really was. If I were to give an explanation why they didn't, I suppose it would be perhaps they didn't know if he was really secretly transgender and wouldn't want to be insensitive in pointing out he doesn't look female to them. That would be really rude if done in real life.

 

But, considering the context of the competition rules, the judges probably could have mentioned it and it would have made things easier for him. He still would have been disqualified at the end though because he was in a "win at all costs" mood and would have literally trampled the competition even if he wasn't in disguise.

 

 

The whole embarrassment of the dress gag could have been avoided if the judges had just told Big Mac they knew he was a stallion, and explained the rules, or if they didn't have any other ideas, they should have dropped the "we knew all along" line.

 

Oops, you beat me to the same thought I just posted above. 

Edited October 3, 2015 by Truffles

[arftbmrf 40]

Rainbows phrase is the reverse of the common sexist phrase (Don't think I'm going to go easy on you just because you are a girl.) The use of a reverse of that phase acts as a counter balance (and a nifty writing trick) and is arguably another point that RD doesn't fall prey to sexist stereotypes.

 

It's kinda brilliant. Lauren Faust would have approved of that girl power nod.

It's sexism, just towards stallions, implying that they are less than mares.

Like always, just my opinion.

[Jeric 46,851]

The whole embarrassment of the dress gag could have been avoided if the judges had just told Big Mac they knew he was a stallion, and explained the rules, or if they didn't have any other ideas, they should have dropped the "we knew all along" line.

You would have abandoned an even deeper and more subtle fault on Big Mac's part if they did that too early.

[Zerbu 72]

Rainbows phrase is the reverse of the common sexist phrase (Don't think I'm going to go easy on you just because you are a girl.)

 

They're saying that they're not going to treat the person differently because of their gender. That's actually the opposite of sexism.

 

 

Why does anyone have to be embarassed about it anyway? Is it emarassed to be a mare? Or is it a shame for a stallion to pretend as one? As if mares are inferior to stallions.

 

It's sexism, just towards stallions, implying that they are less than mares.

Like always, just my opinion.

 

Just like how certain dresses don't fit certain women's body types, the same would be true of men. It's possible to for a man to be "feminine" and break stereotypes, even going as far as wearing a dress, but there's still such a thing as looking ridiculous. That being said, I do think this episode missed an opportunity.

 

 

You would have abandoned an even deeper and more subtle fault on Big Mac's part if they did that too early. 

 

I agree that it would probably ruin the plot, but they could have cut out the "we knew all along" line and it would have still worked. That way, the judges would have a reason not to have just told Big Mac all along.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Zerbu

[Jeric 46,851]

It's sexism, just towards stallions, implying that they are less than mares.

Like always, just my opinion.

Think about it harder. The loose rule existed, but had it been done before? If one has legal equality ... but willfully chooses indoctrination or ignorance ... who would be at fault?

 

And you don't need to end each post with it just being your opinion. Most everything people take away is an opinion and no one is going to bite your head off for having that opinion. At least as long as I am here ...

 

And that is objective fact.

They're saying that they're not going to treat the person differently because of their gender. That's actually the opposite of sexism.

 

EDIT: Currently editing the post to reply to other posts that were made in this thread.

It's a noted form of passive aggressive sexism, or at least acknowledged belief that it would normally be expected to go easy on a different gender. My point still applies.

[arftbmrf 40]

 

Just like how certain dresses don't fit certain women's body types, the same would be true of men. It's possible to for a man to be "feminine" and break stereotypes, even going as far as wearing a dress, but there's still such a thing as looking ridiculous. That being said, I do think this episode missed an opportunity.

 

Sorry, didn't get it. What do you mean by "I do think this episode missed an opportunity"? What opportunity and how it was missed?

 

Think about it harder. The loose rule existed, but had it been done before? If one has legal equality ... but willfully chooses indoctrination or ignorance ... who would be at fault?

 

And you don't need to end each post with it just being your opinion. Most everything people take away is an opinion and no one is going to bite your head off for having that opinion. At least as long as I am here ...

 

And that is objective fact.

 

 

Equality should be in the heads firshand. Everyone should accept it, not just lawmakers. The fact that RD said this phrase, implies that she's sexist.

Also, what about stallions being portrayed stronger than mares?

P.S.

I was banned on one forum for stating my opinion, so I prefer to be cautious now.

[OtakuBrony 349]

Howdy all!

 

Todays episode was freaking great!

 

Peter New did a wonderful performance as Big Mac & Orchard Blossom

 

Same with Michelle Creber as Applebloom.

 

David Polsky wrote a gem.

 

Has that bonding feeling from the past.

 

Made me wanna tear up.

 

See ya!

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

Can you name a bad S5 episode besides Princess Spike?

[Foliha 395]

Much ado about nothing!

 

Big Mac said to Apple Bloom, "Don't you mean go powder your muzzle?"  (Perhaps you've never heard the euphemism, "go powder my nose." He was referring to her needing to be more lady-like, about referring to a private act,  (going to pee) not to her being a female.  Two very different things.  He was just staying in character as a classic southern belle, and also trying to draw attention away from his badly slipping disguise. 

 

Remember the scene in 'Aliens" when the Marines were just out of hypersleep, and Vasquez (sp?), a woman Marine, was doing chins on a pipe?  One of the males in the squad came over and said, "Hey Vasquez, has anyone ever mistaken you for a man?"  Vasquez looks over at him and says, "No.  How about you?"  

 

That was possibly the most brilliant exchange in the film.  No one got their panties in a bunch about it being sexist.  The Marines were just being Marines.

 

The judges outing Big Mac's disguise would have embarrassed him even more than the disguise was embarrassing him already.  They didn't want to hurt his feelings.  Especially since Apple Bloom was more-or-less going along with it.  They didn't care that he was a stallion, they just didn't want to put a well-known and respected friend on the spot. 

 

Big Mac was feeling under the gun to support his sister and give her a chance at winning.  He has always been represented as a strong back (and loving heart) rather than a subtle thinker.  He's a guy's guy - trading sports cards with Spike and suchlike.  Otherwise he would never have thought that he could get away with getting himself up as a mare.  He was also desperate to get his hero status back with his little sister.  So he was thinking even less clearly that usual. 

 

It's easy to read too much into this stuff, living in the hypercritcal and fast social culture we live in.  Deep breath...  Relax...  It's all just fun.

[DJW 142]

Where does tongue-in-cheek ribbing end and where does mockery start?

 

I don't think Big Mac is (intentionally or not) portrayed as transgender. Or at least I personally see a clear difference between transgender and crossdressing (for either side of the gender spectrum).

Transgender are being who they are, comedic crossdressing is when it is clear that the person is not who they are pretending to be.

Does that frequently rely on stereotypes? Yes. But if done properly, it also mocks the stereotypes at the same time.

 

I did kinda think that the lady-like comment wasn't called for, even if it was 'softened' by remarking that it wasn't becoming of anyone. But why would you mention ladyness in the first place then?

 

Regardless of the way he did it and how the creators showed it, this episode did do a good job of expanding Big Mac's character. I think that is what shall be the main thing I took away from it.

Edited October 3, 2015 by DJW

[Glaive9Gko 82]

Oh wow! Yeah, that happened!

+ If you're into cringe humor, then this is the cringiest thing since Spike at the games

++ "That's Big Mac in a dress." Yes it is, sweetie. Yes it its~

+++ Holy fucking shit feels at the end! Legit choked up there!

+ Adorable Scoots & RD. Such tryhards!

-/+ I suppose I could say something about this entire issue being solved by just expressing yourself properly, but then again they did directly state that at the end, so at least they get it.

 

Ya know, I can't really say anything negative here! I laughed at the cringe and feel'd at the feels. Good stuff all around!

So, I give this ep a That'sBiMacinadress / 10!

[arftbmrf 40]

Much ado about nothing!

 

Big Mac said to Apple Bloom, "Don't you mean go powder your muzzle?"  (Perhaps you've never heard the euphemism, "go powder my nose." He was referring to her needing to be more lady-like, about referring to a private act,  (going to pee) not to her being a female.  Two very different things.  He was just staying in character as a classic southern belle, and also trying to draw attention away from his badly slipping disguise. 

 

Remember the scene in 'Aliens" when the Marines were just out of hypersleep, and Vasquez (sp?), a woman Marine, was doing chins on a pipe?  One of the males in the squad came over and said, "Hey Vasquez, has anyone ever mistaken you for a man?"  Vasquez looks over at him and says, "No.  How about you?"  

 

That was possibly the most brilliant exchange in the film.  No one got their panties in a bunch about it being sexist.  The Marines were just being Marines.

 

The judges outing Big Mac's disguise would have embarrassed him even more than the disguise was embarrassing him already.  They didn't want to hurt his feelings.  Especially since Apple Bloom was more-or-less going along with it.  They didn't care that he was a stallion, they just didn't want to put a well-known and respected friend on the spot. 

 

Big Mac was feeling under the gun to support his sister and give her a chance at winning.  He has always been represented as a strong back (and loving heart) rather than a subtle thinker.  He's a guy's guy - trading sports cards with Spike and suchlike.  Otherwise he would never have thought that he could get away with getting himself up as a mare.  He was also desperate to get his hero status back with his little sister.  So he was thinking even less clearly that usual. 

 

It's easy to read too much into this stuff, living in the hypercritcal and fast social culture we live in.  Deep breath...  Relax...  It's all just fun.

So, according to this, pretending to be a mare is almost as hard as, say, killing someone? Why? I asked, if mares supposed to be so inferior to stallions that, if the latter pretend to be mares, they are considered unworthy of calling themselves stallions.

In a gender equal society there are no words, like male or female, until it comes to giving a birth. They'd always use 'pony' while referring to anyone, if we're talking about MLP.

[Zerbu 72]

It's a noted form of passive aggressive sexism, or at least acknowledged belief that it would normally be expected to go easy on a different gender. My point still applies.

 

I guess it depends on how it's used. A lot of the time it's just two people of opposite genders having a laugh. It does acknowledge that gender stereotypes exist, but it's different from actually supporting them.

 

Sorry, didn't get it. What do you mean by "I do think this episode missed an opportunity"? What opportunity and how it was missed?

 

They could have explored the whole crossdressing (or just being feminine) thing a bit more rather than just use it as a reason for Big Mac to feel weird and have his performance hindered.

 

I did kinda think that the lady-like comment wasn't called for, even if it was 'softened' by remarking that it wasn't becoming of anyone. But why would you mention ladyness in the first place then?

 

Agreed! MLP was always the type of show to go against gender stereotypes like that. It was suggested that this attitude doesn't exist in Equestria, but that line shows otherwise. "A Dog and Pony Show" also used "lady", but it was implied that they were referring to a special "type" of mare.

[PROJECT: Simon 3,954]

It was.. a bit sad ;~; I know his feelings ;~;

[Foliha 395]

So, according to this, pretending to be a mare is almost as hard as, say, killing someone?

OK.  I'll bite.  This time and then I'm done.

 

It would be harder for say, Ray Stevenson to pull off a drag act, then say, David Bowie.  It has to do with the type of body and movement each has.  Big Mac, as I said, is a guy's guy.  He's going to feel a bit awkward in a drag getup - which is not the same as saying it wouldn't be fun for him - think Princess Big Mac. 

 

And please...  Let's not confuse trans-gender with cross-dressing; especially cross-dressing as a disguise.  Very different things.  Even though changing you gender usually involves changing the way you dress, there are plenty of dedicated heterosexuals of both sexes that enjoy a spot of cross-dressing now and then.

 

OK.  Done now.  Love and tolerance, as always!  :grin2:

[arftbmrf 40]

I guess it depends on how it's used. A lot of the time it's just two people of opposite genders having a laugh. It does acknowledge that gender stereotypes exist, but it's different from actually supporting them.

 

 

They could have explored the whole crossdressing (or just being feminine) thing a bit more rather than just use it as a reason for Big Mac to feel weird and have his performance hindered.

 

 

Agreed! MLP was always the type of show to go against gender stereotypes like that. It was suggested that this attitude doesn't exist in Equestria, but that line shows otherwise. "A Dog and Pony Show" also used "lady", but it was implied that they were referring to a special "type" of mare.

Well, lady always referred to the cetrain type of a mare/stallion. I don't think anyone in their right mind would call RD or Spitfire a lady.

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

This feels sort of like a reversal of Polsky's other well-known episode this season, "Appleoosa's Most Wanted", in that we have a very weak second act, but it is propped up by a good resolution, whereas the opposite was true when "Appleoosa" wasted what could have been a good setup on a half-baked finale.

 

The real winner of this episode is Big Macintosh's character development. Seeing his part in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" can, in retrospect, be seen as hinting at this sort of inferiority complex he's probably been hiding behind his usual emotional repression. For once, in a regular episode, we get a reference to at least one member of the Mane 6 having an implied superior social status to a common pony, even if it's just within the Apple Family. Dealing with the fear of living in somepony else's shadow is nothing new; Princess Luna, Sweetie Belle ("For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils"), Pinkie Pie ("Pinkie Pride"), and Spike ("Owl's Well That Ends Well") have all had to deal with it, but for Big Macintosh, it's against his normal judgement to admit he has such a fear, and he acknowledges that fact in the final scene with Apple Bloom by at first refusing to open up to her. When you add the enormous amount of responsibility Big Mac is heaped with and the even greater responsibility heaped onto Applejack, Big Mac feeling his efforts are overlooked is really taken personally, and hits a lot harder when you correlate it with the values and ethics the Apple Family normally go to stand for.

 

The episode interestingly subverts the gender roles. Normally it's the lead female of the family who feels their work is underappreciated (the stereotype of the overworked housewife) and forces herself into such a situation as Big Mac did here to prove her worth to the rest of the family.

 

However, the second act of the episode almost straight-up acknowledges it's a drag (no pun intended). The only place I'll give it credit; it didn't go the obvious route of making all the characters oblivious. However, everyone's onto Mac from the start. Most of them make no secret of it with the lone exception of the social organizers. They instead play coy, letting Big Mac make a complete fool of himself, compete in the competitive events, and put everypony in danger even knowing he shouldn't be there without so much as airing a doubt beyond dismissive sarcasm. To be honest, what was the point of letting him go if the lesson wasn't going to be learned there in the first place? The lesson wasn't learned at the social. It came after the social, hence there was no purpose in letting him continue anyway.

 

Second act notwithstanding, it doesn't take away from the ending, which I actually found pretty heartwarming for the episode. I even found Big Mac doing Orchard Blossom's voice the last time for Apple Bloom pretty touching, considering that behind the screwy comedy, there was a genuine attempt to reclaim a deep personal connection.

Edited October 4, 2015 by 13M0N-2E57 (WC)

[DJW 142]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would call RD or Spitfire a lady.

Why not?

What does it even mean anyway?

 

It's like describing a behaviour as 'masculine' or 'feminine'. Are those behaviours inherent/exclusive to a gender or simply more common in one than another (as a population-wide generalisation)?

 

The terminology might be an issue, but I don't take issue with someone with a clearly defined geneder identity (wherever that may be on the gender spectrum) being regarded as 'manly' or 'lady-like' with respects to how they behave in a given area.

 

RD's reaction to Tank's hiberation (once Flutters is done with her) is hardly 'manly' for example.

Edited October 4, 2015 by DJW

[Cirrus. 1,089]

This episode definitely turned out a lot better than I thought it would from the preview.

 

I was really hoping to see this team in the episode though!

Edited October 4, 2015 by Cirrus.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

This is an episode that could have been pitched as some kind of joke only for Hasbro to actually approve of the idea for some reason. First, Big Mac talking. That's rare in the series and even Peter New has spoken of how difficult it is for him to say anything other than "yup" and "nope". Then there is this crossdressing deal going on. I would have never expected for this kind of episode to be made. It's definitely not a serious concept and it's played very lightly with Applebloom going along with it for the most part instead of insisting that Big Mac knock it off. I can't believe Daniel Ingram and the show's song composer wasted one of their 15 songs on the mess that was made for "Brotherhooves Social". It was awful and even if that was the intent, I'll still dislike it like the CMC theme in season 2.

 

I don't like a whole lot in this episode but I do like Rainbow and Scoots. I guess their relationship has gotten even stronger lately since they see themselves as spiritual sisters of sorts? When did that happen? It sounds like a lot better episode to have been made than Big Mac in a dress and a ridiculous voice. I do like the ending at least. Big Mac is rather down lately because of his lack of interaction with Applebloom which is an understandable thing. I hope that the way Big Mac is treated is about the sisterhooves social instead of some kind of general male/female adversarial concept. It would allow me to let Rainbow's comment about stallions to slide. If not, then that's a problem and Hasbro should sort it out before people complain.

 

It's an okay episode overall. I just can't believe it was even made.

[Zerbu 72]

Well, lady always referred to the cetrain type of a mare/stallion. I don't think anyone in their right mind would call RD or Spitfire a lady.

 

It was suggested that being like a "lady" is a requirement of the Sisterhooves Social, which stretches it beyond just being a personality archetype. There was nothing to suggest that Rainbow Dash was exempt from the requirement.

[Horse 63]

At the end of the episode I couldn't stop saying "AWW!"  It was so sweet.