Are ponies overstepping their bounds?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

 

Specifically with the Changelings. It's been shown before that ponies don't think twice about forcefully reforming creatures that won't work with them (like Discord), and altering creature's natural biology and dietary needs (like the Parasprites and Vampire Fruit Bats). I feel like this was done with the Changelings as well. Not only did SG convince an unknown number of them (it couldn't have been the entire hive in Chrysalis's throne room, for them ALL to change) to change, but also to adjust instantaneously to going from always needing to feed to never needing to.

Then there's Sunbutt, who had no authority over the hive to dictate who became ruler over it and crown Thorax- a male- their leader. With no Queen to sire future generations, Sunbutt just put a death sentence on all of the Changelings by appointing a King. (Again, which wasn't even her place to decide).

 

Ponies are very clearly overstepping their bounds with other species. The Changelings aren't new to this, but are obviously the latest victims of pony meddling. Are people just ok with this?

[Jeric 46,860]

Unintended consequences does not always mean the same thing as overstepping one's bounds. Philosophically, the argument you make is a bit of a 'shooter-on-rails' and makes several assumptions guiding the conclusion that I don't subscribe too, and also ignores possible cogent facts. It is also highly steeped in conflation.

 

I don't believe it is at all clear. In fact, I think that the many approaches you can take on this are filled with some tantalizing grey areas, for example ... who gets to decide the value of a life well lived? Does one person's love for another person override all other moral questions? If not all, then which ones, if any?

 

For me, since the intention to turn Thoraxes love on Chrysalis did not come with the knowledge the Changelings would have evolved, Starlight and Thorax seem to appropriately side step that moral component. They further their defense by offering redemption to Chrysalis. If there are population issues, as you suggest there will be, doesn't that fault fall on Chrysalis?

 

I'm not saying that it's an open and shut case either way, but it isn't quite as simple as a simple Libertarian Free Will argument (for instance), especially in a series that seems to love destiny and fate.

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

For one, Starlight didn't force any of them to reform, what happened to Thorax seemed to be a total shock to them all, and while Starlight encouraged them to accept this, so they wouldn't have to steal love like before, she didn't force any of them. If they didn't want to change why did they? Chrysalis didn't, even though they offered her a chance at reformation. Also, Discord wasn't really "Forced" to reform, he could have said no. You can argue "Yeah, but then they'd use the elements on him again!", which...Sure, true, but what was the alternative there, let him roam Equestria using everypony as his playthings?

 

 Also, there's no real evidence that the Changeling's will have population issues or will die out, we don't know how Changeling reproduction works, for all we know it could actually be the same as ponies.

 

 You do have a point with the Parasprites and the Fruit bats, but they were shown to be wrong in both cases, with both leading to some pretty terrible (Although oddly adorable in the case of Flutterbat) consequences.

Edited March 14, 2017 by BasementSea

[KrazyDashie 1,847]

i don't think starlight forced any of them to change. she told thorax to share all his love with chrysalis, instead of letting her steal it.  she didn't tell the others to do the same, they seemed to change on their own. the changelings could have stayed the same if they wanted to.

 

well I mean, being the first changeling to reform... I guess that's why thorax became the leader of the changelings (I don't remember celestia appointing him)

[Johnny1226 14,674]

It seems that it was necessary in all of those cases to reform the other species as they posed a danger to the ponies so there would've been only two options either turn the problem into a benefit or get rid of the problem and I don't think the ponies are big fans of the second option

[Singe 2,111]

If you put it in a certain perspective, Chrysalis did initiate war with the Equestrian Kingdom. It was an invasion, all the ponies were captured, and replaced.

 

One the implications of war is the ruling body is overthrown and a replacement is installed to maintain order.

[Nightshroud 331]

i thought it was king sombra

[Cwanky 17,602]

Devil's advocate aside, whose to say that Queen Chrysalis wasn't manipulating any "natural" behavior and traits of the Changelings? From what was gathered, it seems she deliberately manipulated and brainwashed them into believing they had to feed off of others, keeping them constantly hungry so that she could use that hunger to attack others.

 

Besides that no one but the Changelings themselves forced them to change their ways. Chrysalis may very well have been just a figurehead who consolidated her power. But let's now play the devil's advocate. Assume she is the biological queen of the Changelings, similar to bees, termites and ants. Yes in some species the colony will implode and die, but in other cases the queen can be replaced with minimal turmoil. But given the presented alternative in the finale, that's not likely to happen. Thorax could still function as the new leader and conceivably another queen could reign with him replacing Chrysalis. 

 

Starlight made a lot of mistakes and did terrible crimes in her past. But helping reform and save the Changelings definitely was for the better and benefit of all, especially the Changelings. I honestly would say this is one of the times that Celestia had minimal involvement. Starlight and her team accomplished this on their own.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

Specifically with the Changelings. It's been shown before that ponies don't think twice about forcefully reforming creatures that won't work with them (like Discord), and altering creature's natural biology and dietary needs (like the Parasprites and Vampire Fruit Bats). I feel like this was done with the Changelings as well. Not only did SG convince an unknown number of them (it couldn't have been the entire hive in Chrysalis's throne room, for them ALL to change) to change, but also to adjust instantaneously to going from always needing to feed to never needing to.

Then there's Sunbutt, who had no authority over the hive to dictate who became ruler over it and crown Thorax- a male- their leader. With no Queen to sire future generations, Sunbutt just put a death sentence on all of the Changelings by appointing a King. (Again, which wasn't even her place to decide).

 

Ponies are very clearly overstepping their bounds with other species. The Changelings aren't new to this, but are obviously the latest victims of pony meddling. Are people just ok with this?

Totally agree with you on this front. This show has a problem portraying ponies as the virtuous master race while other species have been portrayed as one or more of the following (with very few exceptions) 

 

1) Violent 

2) Greedy 

3) Evil 

4) Ugly 

5) Primitive 

 

I've been saying for awhile now that the Ponies need to meet another species that doesn't need to be reformed and is just as civilized as them.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Buck Testa

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Equestria has committed several deadly sins:

-Failure to comprehend and deliberately control the environment to suit the needs of the people while retaining its long-term health and renewable resources.

-Failure to form think tanks and services that would be able to gather information from inside and outside of their nation, comprehend the data, predict problems, and provide solutions.

-Failure to form a military apparatus capable of protecting the people from internal and external threats, including natural and magical disasters.

-Failure to enact proper control over magic and tools used to modify and/or amplify its effects with proper census, storage, and education.

-Failure to form a working and reliable leadership structure that can be held accountable for their mistakes by the people.

-Failure to build diplomatic relationships with other factions.

 

Suffice to say, if this had actual been a working fantasy world, Equestria would have been a smoldering pile of death and misery right about now. However, as many will undoubtedly point out this is indeed primarily a show for little children, so a different stance is needed. Instead of arguing from within a dysfunctional world that isn't taken seriously by its caretakers, we should hold the caretakers accountable for their lack of insight and treatment of non-pones as sacrificial lambs for plots of the day that are turning the whole thing into a boring and limited experience.

[heavens-champion 1,905]

Equestria has committed several deadly sins:

-Failure to comprehend and deliberately control the environment to suit the needs of the people while retaining its long-term health and renewable resources.

-Failure to form think tanks and services that would be able to gather information from inside and outside of their nation, comprehend the data, predict problems, and provide solutions.

-Failure to form a military apparatus capable of protecting the people from internal and external threats, including natural and magical disasters.

-Failure to enact proper control over magic and tools used to modify and/or amplify its effects with proper census, storage, and education.

-Failure to form a working and reliable leadership structure that can be held accountable for their mistakes by the people.

-Failure to build diplomatic relationships with other factions.

 

Suffice to say, if this had actual been a working fantasy world, Equestria would have been a smoldering pile of death and misery right about now. However, as many will undoubtedly point out this is indeed primarily a show for little children, so a different stance is needed. Instead of arguing from within a dysfunctional world that isn't taken seriously by its caretakers, we should hold the caretakers accountable for their lack of insight and treatment of non-pones as sacrificial lambs for plots of the day that are turning the whole thing into a boring and limited experience.

I think you might get your wish in the movie.

[ggg-2 3,553]

Starlight didn't FORCE the changelings to reform. They reformed on their own after realizing Chrysalis had been using them all along. Hell, if I remember right, Chrysalis outright SAID she was using them the whole time. She basically brought her hive's betrayal upon herself.

[trademark2 485]

I agree with OP, ponies should not be trying to change other species so much. IDK, I just like seeing diverse creatures, some of which are threatening, some not. But if all the creatures are changed to 'work together' it is not as interesting i feel like. So also for the reason I am against it. 

[ManaMinori 4,145]

I agree with OP, ponies should not be trying to change other species so much. IDK, I just like seeing diverse creatures, some of which are threatening, some not. But if all the creatures are changed to 'work together' it is not as interesting i feel like. So also for the reason I am against it.

 

I feel like the root of the problem is their xenophobia toward other species that fuels their "be like us/ how we want you to be" mentality.

[cmarston1 5,959]

Starlight didn't force the changelings to reform.

It was Thorax who convinced the changelings to reform.

Starlight had no idea the changelings would transform.

[sweetolebob18 728]

When Arnoud  Amalric was leading a Crusade against heretics, when his army was going to sack a city, some of the army leaders worried about how to tell heretics from orthodox Catholic.  He said something to the effect "Therefore, kill them all and let God sort it out".  The Changelings started a war, (back in Canterlot Wedding), IMO they got off easy.

 

As to overstepping with Parasprites,  Fruitbats, etc. the human way of dealing with vermin is to exterminate them.  Again, IMO they got off easy.