Clop SECTION

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

16 minutes ago, Malcontent said:

No one is saying it's hard. We're mainly discussing the ethical and long term ramifications of adding a taboo like section that can 

A) be accessed easily by lying (who lies on the Internet right? 

2) be viewed as a step backwards to a seemingly fun filled and family friendly enviroment. (Let's be honest some people still think mlp is for girls and kids) 

And D) be a discouraging factor to some users vs he ones who absolutely must have it (because we don't have clop anywhere else in the entire web) 

 

No mention of hard is there. Though how you've missed that makes me wonder a few things.

Its only taboo because of short-sightedness. there is nothing unethical about providing a section where it is safe to critique and/or discuss adult art, however the hatred by anti-cloppers has painted it as some "sinful" or "evil thing.

People who are discouraged by it can choose not to view the content.

 

My point is that literally every other sub group of the Brony fandom is catered too here, EXCEPT the clop community. Its discrimination, and cleverly worded dribble, and political speech doesn't do a good job of masking it.

[Soul Flare 403]

Just now, ChocolateCrane said:

 

A ) NSFW material can be easily accessed pretty much anywhere on the Internet; this site allowing for such behind an age-wall isn't something out of the norm. If a minor lies about their age, that is on themselves, not the site that is at fault. 

B ) Those are two contradicting statements right there. The show itself is family friendly. The "normal" sections of this forum are also family friendly. I am proposing a section for adults only; this would only add to the diversity and encapsulate all civil aspects of the fandom  (I am not saying ANYTHING is allowed to be posted there; moderation will be required just like on any other board)

C ) Again, I do not know of any other active forum where the main purpose is to critique, discuss, and recommend Clop materials. I have asked several times for people to point me in the direction of such a site, which not a single person has been able to supply. Most websites that allow for Clop actually discourage meaningful discussion in favor of "just enjoying the images and moving on". Seeing how many articulate and intelligent people this forum houses, it makes me excited at the potential a proper NSFW board could facilitate.

 

A) NSFW being easiy accessible is exactly the reason why it woul be extremely unnecessary. And a forum who prides itself on being family friendly allowing NSFW content to be posted or discussed IS out of the norm. Not to mention, I might not be an expert in law but I'm fairly certain it goes a little further than "if a kid lies, blame them or their parents".

B ) This would only cause the discomfort of many (including the staff, I presume) for the benefit of few. 

C) Just because you don't know of any current forum where NSFW content can't be discussed doesn't mean there has to be one on these forums. Find one, start your own or discuss such things in PMs with other members. 

[Malcontent 196]

3 minutes ago, ChocolateCrane said:

 

A ) NSFW material can be easily accessed pretty much anywhere on the Internet; this site allowing for such behind an age-wall isn't something out of the norm. If a minor lies about their age, that is on themselves, not the site that is at fault. 

B ) Those are two contradicting statements right there. The show itself is family friendly. The "normal" sections of this forum are also family friendly. I am proposing a section for adults only; this would only add to the diversity and encapsulate all civil aspects of the fandom  (I am not saying ANYTHING is allowed to be posted there; moderation will be required just like on any other board)

C ) Again, I do not know of any other active forum where the main purpose is to critique, discuss, and recommend Clop materials. I have asked several times for people to point me in the direction of such a site, which not a single person has been able to supply. Most websites that allow for Clop actually discourage meaningful discussion in favor of "just enjoying the images and moving on". Seeing how many articulate and intelligent people this forum houses, it makes me excited at the potential a proper NSFW board could facilitate.

 

1) the same could be said about fire arms. It's fairly easy to get a fire arm. By your example it's entirely alright to allow anyone and everyone such a right when they could not be qualified to handle such a device resulting in ..issues. 

 

4) let's pretend that first part is not an issue. Who decides what proper? What offends one person may offend another. With sexual Itty, just as politics and religion, you've got both extremes and the middle ground. How do you intend to maintain a sensitive subject like that in a way that satisfy everyone. Or are you simply saying you want this section and someone else has to be responsible? Cuz thatsounds rather selfish

J) while again I personally would enjoy a deep and convoluted area to discuss why (redacted) is putting his (redacted) in fluttershy while Twilight reads (redacted)...I cannot see how this would be a draw except to a handful of intellectually gifted perverts x.x consequently, I can see this idea driving people away. Less people means less traffic less traffic means less hits less hits leads to less ad revenue and less income for things like upgrades and new pipelines. 

 

In the end, the few people who would sit down and discuss this by all accounts in my opinion legitimate analysis section, would not outweigh the disgruntled of the many and our inevitable descent into being just another pony porn site :/ 

 

 

[Malcontent 196]

8 minutes ago, Jeric said:

I had this text as a reply to another quoted item, but it was sacrificed to the Pony God's probably due to the quirky board . I do again. 

As you can see, there are some strong opinions on both sides of this issue.  It is a delicate subject for some. A few responses showcase exactly one major problem I see happening -- namely fragmentation and schism. It's a topic the entirety of the staff have to discuss. Risk analysis on how people will take it should be a priority.  

It's not a proposal without merit, but it will have some unfortunate consequences. If anything has been proven as a 100% truism around here, it's that people tend to withhold what they feel -- until there is a 'critical mass' moment. 

I have faith in you to not ram any policy changes down the throat of either the staff or the users. I'm hoping that they (the community and staff) help you out by making their view on this known. You won't know the full breadth of the impact unless their opinions are made and made clear.

This goes for staff and this goes for the users. It doesn't matter what side of the issue you fall on. If you don't want it to be public then send a PM to someone on staff like the Admins and ADP. Reach out to decision makers. Silence kills. 

If you say nothing, and it goes a way you don't like, that would be unfortunate if you missed an opportunity to give your view. Nobody should berate anyone for whatever side they take on an NSFW board. 

 

Well said n.n 

[Lenny 249]

7 minutes ago, Jeric said:

I had this text as a reply to another quoted item, but it was sacrificed to the Pony God's probably due to the quirky board . I do again. 

As you can see, there are some strong opinions on both sides of this issue.  It is a delicate subject for some. A few responses showcase exactly one major problem I see happening -- namely fragmentation and schism. It's a topic the entirety of the staff have to discuss. Risk analysis on how people will take it should be a priority.  

It's not a proposal without merit, but it will have some unfortunate consequences. If anything has been proven as a 100% truism around here, it's that people tend to withhold what they feel -- until there is a 'critical mass' moment. 

I have faith in you to not ram any policy changes down the throat of either the staff or the users. I'm hoping that they (the community and staff) help you out by making their view on this known. You won't know the full breadth of the impact unless their opinions are made and made clear.

This goes for staff and this goes for the users. It doesn't matter what side of the issue you fall on. If you don't want it to be public then send a PM to someone on staff like the Admins and ADP. Reach out to decision makers. Silence kills. 

If you say nothing, and it goes a way you don't like, that would be unfortunate if you missed an opportunity to give your view. Nobody should berate anyone for whatever side they take on an NSFW board. 

 

Someone up above said it best "if they don't like it, they can choose not to view it". Sometimes people want their stuff public, regardless if it's NSFW or not. I might of missed alot cause that's way above my reading level

[Malcontent 196]

6 minutes ago, GenderIsAnIllusion said:

Its only taboo because of short-sightedness. there is nothing unethical about providing a section where it is safe to critique and/or discuss adult art, however the hatred by anti-cloppers has painted it as some "sinful" or "evil thing.

People who are discouraged by it can choose not to view the content.

 

My point is that literally every other sub group of the Brony fandom is catered too here, EXCEPT the clop community. Its discrimination, and cleverly worded dribble, and political speech doesn't do a good job of masking it.

There's a word we use far too much. A person asked to sit in the back of a bus due to their race /gender/orientation/ect is discrimination. A person pulled over due to the same factors only? Profiling. 

 

A website.catered to a fandom...that watches what is essentially a cartoon (don't throw stones at me I defend us all the time I'm using this for contrast!) Not adding an adult section so a select few can discuss the inner most workings of a clop fic due to the Canon family friendly nature of the ip....is not xD

 

If it was a government sanctioned group wed have a whole other argument but this in the end is a private endeavour that's shared to the public. They could lock everything down and not owe us a thingand they'd. Be in their right to do so.

 

[Malcontent 196]

9 minutes ago, Soul Flare said:

A) NSFW being easiy accessible is exactly the reason why it woul be extremely unnecessary. And a forum who prides itself on being family friendly allowing NSFW content to be posted or discussed IS out of the norm. Not to mention, I might not be an expert in law but I'm fairly certain it goes a little further than "if a kid lies, blame them or their parents".

B ) This would only cause the discomfort of many (including the staff, I presume) for the benefit of few. 

C) Just because you don't know of any current forum where NSFW content can't be discussed doesn't mean there has to be one on these forums. Find one, start your own or discuss such things in PMs with other members. 

All additional and we'll formed points.

[Jeric 46,851]

1 minute ago, GenderIsAnIllusion said:

Its only taboo because of short-sightedness. there is nothing unethical about providing a section where it is safe to critique and/or discuss adult art, however the hatred by anti-cloppers has painted it as some "sinful" or "evil thing.

People who are discouraged by it can choose not to view the content.

 

My point is that literally every other sub group of the Brony fandom is catered too here, EXCEPT the clop community. Its discrimination, and cleverly worded dribble, and political speech doesn't do a good job of masking it.

Salient points, but I have made the acquaintance of individuals here who appreciate the art, visit sites that have it in plentiful supply, hold no judgement, yet still do not want it housed on this site. People are complex in their opinions, especially about erotic art. It isn't all black and white.

I agree that approaching a fan as 'sinful' for liking artwork is unfortunate and limiting. I'd have a hell of a lot less Brony friends if I did that. What we can take from all of this is that Poniverse doesn't hold the opinion that the fans who like NSFW are lesser fans, otherwise this wouldn't even be up for discussion. 

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

The argument that minors would lie about their age, reminds me of the pot argument, they are going to use it anyways so why not make it legal so it can at least be regulated. If they wanted to they would find off-site clop too anyways, and if its not in their face then people who oppose clop don't need to leave.

 

The real reason why it shouldn't be done is because of others mentioning it in their statuses and such, it becoming a social norm. Granted I don't think its unhealthy, overall though it may cause problems and others getting into it when they are unsure and such, but if people are respectful that may not happen either. Shouldn't matter either way though.

[Lenny 249]

1 minute ago, CuriUndersXeno said:

The argument that minors would lie about their age, reminds me of the pot argument, they are going to use it anyways so why not make it legal so it can at least be regulated. If they wanted to they would find off-site clop too anyways, and if its not in their face then people who oppose clop don't need to leave.

 

The real reason why it shouldn't be done is because of others mentioning it in their statuses and such, it becoming a social norm. Granted I don't think its unhealthy, overall though it may cause problems and others getting into it when they are unsure and such, but if people are respectful that may not happen either. Shouldn't matter either way though.

It would be against the rules, but the clop section, that rule wouldn't be there. Like weed in some states, but the majority of them it is still illegal

[Malcontent 196]

The assumption that it's only due to their short sightednss and nothing else they use to judge is hardly any proven metric to measure this on. Say someone wants to post their art to our site but now they see we host links to NSFW? 

 

What if that person is a heck of an artist and would bring in all sorts of fans and revenue and discussion! 

 

Now imagine if they didn't due to their own beliefs, whatever they may be, regarding such nsfw. Now we lose all that publicity all that revenue all that support, because what honestly seems to be a vocal minority, wanted to discuss the latest alicorn clop fiction? 

 

Seems counter productdon't you think? 

[Alphys Hedge 671]

What I'm going to say has been stated by others already, but I'll say it anyway. MLPF would crash and burn if a clop section was put into place. You don't see things like Freedom Planet forums, or Sonic forums, or Mario forums having NSFW sections, right? I have no problem with people who like clop, what they're into is none of my business, and I won't think less of them for liking clop, but stuff like that is meant to be kept elsewhere, not on an all-ages forum.

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

While I don't judge those into clop or who enjoy NSFW content, it is my opinion it is unnecessary for a site like this, and adding it does not just add the content, but the unpleasant attention that goes along with it. I'll ignore the legal stuff Jeric has already been alluding to already and just go for the throat of the matter.

Pretty much every large "pony" site on the web is a NSFW free zone. That is because the source material is not in any way adult... it is specifically aimed at children, young girls to be precise, it is irrelevant who all is actually watching it and enjoying it. And that is where the large amount of discomfort comes from... because it is "adults" discussing and sharing content that is either sexually explicit or utilizing the characters in a way that they were never meant to be utilized by their parent company. It is an uphill battle in many cases to say you like pastel colored ponies to a stranger, you throw on some lead weights and a 5000 boulder when they are visualizing cloppers while you tell them and try to convince them you totally are not into that. It did not work for furries and it won't work here.

How would you govern it? I mean it would have to be an almost anything goes section... because if you let one thing in, well, we can always go a bit further right? Everyone has a fetish, and they range from weird, to goofy to horrifying... and they would have all have people arguing for their inclusion with the whole "If you don't like it, don't look at it". Because out of sight equals out of mind... except it doesn't.

No matter how much security you wrap any subsection into, and how you go about trying to keep it away from the wrong eyes, the fact is, it is going to happen... and it is going to happen a lot most likely since the ability to lie, use apps and just find all sorts of work-arounds would be utilized to get inside it. And once someone stumbles upon 11 year old Billy flipping through pictures of ponies doing things you won't see on FiM, all the  excuses and safe guards and he said-she saids in the world will not stop the finger pointing when that crap goes viral.

Currently you have an MLP site that is open to all that enjoy the primary sources of the fandom... everything fan made is its own thing, which currently much of is allowed while some is not.. and that works just fine. Making a NSFW section changes that image completely... now it becomes the site where people can point to and say "go there for smut". And although one could argue that is an exaggeration or wrong... it really would not be since you could go there for smut. Something other sites could easily say they are free of while critics look down their nose and say "See! We were right about these perverts all along!" Sure there are sites that have that sort of stuff, but they are not advertised as family friendly, nor cater to the primary sources of the material.  We are one site, not the whole internet... and we cannot control what everyone else is doing, looking at or saying, we can just control what we are doing, advertising and saying.

There are plenty of sites that cater to it in some format or another already, and I just don't see something like this as something necessary for this one. Like i said, I am not telling anyone what they can and cannot like, and personally speaking I think you should be free to enjoy whatever you like as long as it is not hurting anyone else free from judgement, but there are plenty of places to go and do that. Bringing it here just brings with it all the unwanted stereotypes that go with it so many already struggle with daily in some cases.

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

[Malcontent 196]

2 minutes ago, Alphys Hedge said:

What I'm going to say has been stated by others already, but I'll say it anyway. MLPF would crash and burn if a clop section was put into place. You don't see things like Freedom Planet forums, or Sonic forums, or Mario forums having NSFW sections, right? I have no problem with people who like clop, what they're into is none of my business, and I won't think less of them for liking clop, but stuff like that is meant to be kept elsewhere, not on an all-ages forum.

Well stated.

The absence of of these areas is exactly why they continue to florish. 

 

In order to maintain a high attendance you have to ensure your material reaches the widest audience possible. 

[Malcontent 196]

2 minutes ago, GrimGrimoire said:

While I don't judge those into clop or who enjoy NSFW content, it is my opinion it is unnecessary for a site like this, and adding it does not just add the content, but the unpleasant attention that goes along with it. I'll ignore the legal stuff Jeric has already been alluding to already and just go for the throat of the matter.

Pretty much every large "pony" site on the web is a NSFW free zone. That is because the source material is not in any way adult... it is specifically aimed at children, young girls to be precise, it is irrelevant who all is actually watching it and enjoying it. And that is where the large amount of discomfort comes from... because it is "adults" discussing and sharing content that is either sexually explicit or utilizing the characters in a way that they were never meant to be utilized by their parent company. It is an uphill battle in many cases to say you like pastel colored ponies to a stranger, you throw on some lead weights and a 5000 boulder when they are visualizing cloppers while you tell them and try to convince them you totally are not into that. It did not work for furries and it won't work here.

How would you govern it? I mean it would have to be an almost anything goes section... because if you let one thing in, well, we can always go a bit further right? Everyone has a fetish, and they range from weird, to goofy to horrifying... and they would have all have people arguing for their inclusion with the whole "If you don't like it, don't look at it". Because out of sight equals out of mind... except it doesn't.

No matter how much security you wrap any subsection into, and how you go about trying to keep it away from the wrong eyes, the fact is, it is going to happen... and it is going to happen a lot most likely since the ability to lie, use apps and just find all sorts of work-arounds would be utilized to get inside it. And once someone stumbles upon 11 year old Billy flipping through pictures of ponies doing things you won't see on FiM, all the  excuses and safe guards and he said-she saids in the world will not stop the finger pointing when that crap goes viral.

Currently you have an MLP site that is open to all that enjoy the primary sources of the fandom... everything fan made is its own thing, which currently much of is allowed while some is not.. and that works just fine. Making a NSFW section changes that image completely... now it becomes the site where people can point to and say "go there for smut". And although one could argue that is an exaggeration or wrong... it really would not be since you could go there for smut. Something other sites could easily say they are free of while critics look down their nose and say "See! We were right about these perverts all along!" Sure there are sites that have that sort of stuff, but they are not advertised as family friendly, nor cater to the primary sources of the material.  We are one site, not the whole internet... and we cannot control what everyone else is doing, looking at or saying, we can just control what we are doing, advertising and saying.

There are plenty of sites that cater to it in some format or another already, and I just don't see something like this as something necessary for this one. Like i said, I am not telling anyone what they can and cannot like, and personally speaking I think you should be free to enjoy whatever you like as long as it is not hurting anyone else free from judgement, but there are plenty of places to go and do that. Bringing it here just brings with it all the unwanted stereotypes that go with it so many already struggle with daily in some cases.

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

Absolutely. Policing it would be a nightmare to say the least. 

 

We must stay the course. 

[Jeric 46,851]

5 minutes ago, Lenny said:

Someone up above said it best "if they don't like it, they can choose not to view it". Sometimes people want their stuff public, regardless if it's NSFW or not. I might of missed alot cause that's way above my reading level

That is a concession that some may not want to make (as evidenced in this thread), and current staff may still be forced to manage it who are not on board with the idea so the idea of opt-in still has tradeoffs. 

If anyone tells you they can create a system that everyone will agree on, they are either not considering the entire landscape, or they are being dishonest. 

At this point, if you go left you are going to annoy people. If you don't go left you are going to annoy people. That's what I mean by what I said concerning looking at the community, and maybe even tabling this if there is too much of a split. 

Out of all the issues that are problematic, the technical ones are the least of the concern. Dev pones got that part covered. It's the larger community picture and how it impacts staff and users on both sides that I worry about.

You know. They could just create a companion site/board if that would make people feel better. Less risk of accidentally involving non clop minded people and such. Cost may be an issue tho. 

[Brightbart 268]

Please do not add a NSFW section to forums. There is so much pornography already on the internet and it does not need to be here. I rather like that the MLP forums are open to all and that everyone can participate in all sections regardless of age. I legitimately do not see any benefit coming from creating a porn section, in reality I think it would reflect negatively on the community we have here. 

I'm not judging anyone who enjoys that stuff, I just don't think it is wise to add something that is entirely unnecessary and could potentially reflect negatively on the entire community. 

[Malcontent 196]

3 minutes ago, Jeric said:

That is a concession that some may not want to make (as evidenced in this thread), and current staff may still be forced to manage it who are not on board with the idea so the idea of opt-in still has tradeoffs. 

If anyone tells you they can create a system that everyone will agree on, they are either not considering the entire landscape, or they are being dishonest. 

At this point, if you go left you are going to annoy people. If you don't go left you are going to annoy people. That's what I mean by what I said concerning looking at the community, and maybe even tabling this if there is too much of a split. 

Out of all the issues that are problematic, the technical ones are the least of the concern. Dev pones got that part covered. It's the larger community picture and how it impacts staff and users on both sides that I worry about.

You know. They could just create a companion site/board if that would make people feel better. Less risk of accidentally involving non clop minded people and such. Cost may be an issue tho. 

One has to wonder why they arent. Though we do have a well established user base to...dip into vs making a new site and having to advertise. 

[Gestum 2,493]

If you want to disscus porn then I would recomend that you go to one of the many pornsites on the internet.

[Alphys Hedge 671]

Just now, Brightbart said:

Please do not add a NSFW section to forums. There is so much pornography already on the internet and it does not need to be here. I rather like that the MLP forums are open to all and that everyone can participate in all sections regardless of age. I legitimately do not see any benefit coming from creating a porn section, in reality I think it would reflect negatively on the community we have here. 

I'm not judging anyone who enjoys that stuff, I just don't think it is wise to add something that is entirely unnecessary and could potentially reflect negatively on the entire community. 

^^^^^

Just another reason why this shouldn't happen. There are already websites that host this sort of stuff, what's the benefit of having a section here?

[Lenny 249]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

That is a concession that some may not want to make (as evidenced in this thread), and current staff may still be forced to manage it who are not on board with the idea so the idea of opt-in still has tradeoffs. 

If anyone tells you they can create a system that everyone will agree on, they are either not considering the entire landscape, or they are being dishonest. 

At this point, if you go left you are going to annoy people. If you don't go left you are going to annoy people. That's what I mean by what I said concerning looking at the community, and maybe even tabling this if there is too much of a split. 

Out of all the issues that are problematic, the technical ones are the least of the concern. Dev pones got that part covered. It's the larger community picture and how it impacts staff and users on both sides that I worry about.

You know. They could just create a companion site/board if that would make people feel better. Less risk of accidentally involving non clop minded people and such. Cost may be an issue tho. 

I haven't seen a post in the clop thread with someone saying "**** cloppers". So my guess is that they ignored it. A notice/rule forbidding discrimination against a subgroup should work?

[Malcontent 196]

3 minutes ago, Lenny said:

I haven't seen a post in the clop thread with someone saying "**** cloppers". So my guess is that they ignored it. A notice/rule forbidding discrimination against a subgroup should work?

That's gotta already be on global rules isn't it? We can't just go around badnouthing ethnic groups or genders on the site. That's like a basic rules of most civil forums. 

[Lenny 249]

3 minutes ago, Malcontent said:

That's gotta already be on global rules isn't it? We can't just go around badnouthing ethnic groups or genders on the site. That's like a basic rules of most civil forums. 

Clippers apply as a subgroup, so it shouldn't be happening.

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

Adding this to bring better thought to it as well.

 

You also have to remember that just as a lot of people visit this site "just for RP" or just for "commissions" or just for the "cartoon news and discussion", so to would you then have people only joining and signing up for the NSFW content coming from the sites they usually frequent, namely the porn sites. And where many members would not have access to the NSFW area, they would have access to everything. The site already has to be careful of predatory behavior considering we have plenty of underage members here and plenty of people signing up who probably see that as a bonus,., and then adding that on top of it would just ramp it up even more so. Although plenty of people into clop are responsible, decent, mature individuals, there is a large majority that is not, and mixing the two groups would not be in the overall best interests of the site.

[catnet 9,356]

23 minutes ago, GenderIsAnIllusion said:

My point is that literally every other sub group of the Brony fandom is catered too here, EXCEPT the clop community. Its discrimination, and cleverly worded dribble, and political speech doesn't do a good job of masking it.

By this reasoning, would every other fandom-oriented forum disassociated with said fandom's NSFW content (because it's pretty much guaranteed any fandom with large enough an audience will produce such content, and have fans that are into it) be guilty of discrimination? Would it be impossible for, say, a forum about Pokemon to be respectable without a NSFW section within it? Are forums that are family-friendly across the board inherently discriminatory for not catering to members of their relevant fandom that are into its mature content?

I certainly agree with you that there's nothing immoral about cloppers, or their equivalents in other fandoms either, but I also can't see anything unethical, or even close to discriminatory about a forum choosing not to cater to mature tastes... if a forum can do that and pull it off successfully, that's pretty great for them, but it's not the easiest, most risk-free change, there are valid concerns forums can have that stop or even disinterest them in expanding in such a way. As such, I just simply can't see any intrinsic ill-intent in a forum that tries to cater to its members as much as possible but draws the line at content not thought appropriate for it after some contemplation (and from the looks, tons of contemplation has, and still is being put into it).