S07:E14 - Fame and Misfortune

[Tilgoreth 1,915]

28 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

That's just moving the responsibility from the bystander to the victim, it's not an alternative solution, much less the correct one. 

But you can't cry about everything. Real life kicks you in the balls than laughs about it. You jusy have to kick life back. You can't expect people to feel sympathy for you, not when everyone else has been through the same or worse. Grow up and get the f**k back out there.

[Dowlphin 463]

14 minutes ago, Tilgoreth said:

But you can't cry about everything. Real life kicks you in the balls than laughs about it. You jusy have to kick life back. You can't expect people to feel sympathy for you, not when everyone else has been through the same or worse. Grow up and get the f**k back out there.

Oh, the "grow up" point has been reached to downplay the importance of empathy. Very mature, ironically and sarcastically.

Some people go though tough stuff and dish it back out. Others don't want more people to experience the same. We all need to make an effort to break the chains. Those who continue the cycle actually refuse to go through stuff. Harmful deeds are not caused through suffering, but through refusal of suffering. And there some just got overwhelmed, but others just don't see why they should shoulder any burden if they can shove it onto someone else.

Preaching a hardened shell can be part of such avoidance of suffering, too. If we all "grew up" as society pressures, we wouldn't watch kids' cartoons. Everybody would be a master at survival, but everybody would be concerned with nothing else.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Tilgoreth 1,915]

8 minutes ago, Dowlphin said:

Oh, the "grow up" point has been reached to downplay the importance of empathy. Very mature, ironically and sarcastically.

Some people go though tough stuff and dish it back out. Others don't want more people to experience the same. We all need to make an effort to break the chains. Those who continue the cycle actually refuse to go through stuff. Harmful deeds are not caused through suffering, but through refusal of suffering. And there some just got overwhelmed, but others just don't see why they should shoulder any burden if they can shove it onto someone else.

Preaching a hardened shell can be part of such avoidance of suffering, too. If we all "grew up" as society pressures, we wouldn't watch kids' cartoons. Everybody would be a master at survival, but everybody would be concerned with nothing else.

I don't think selfishness is wrong though. And some people ar just pussys about everything. Just look at millineals in college.

[BlinkZ 1,151]

10 hours ago, Celli said:

@Spivey Holy fucking shit, you missed the point.

This episode was directed at the people who take the show too seriously, the ones who act like the writing is like God's gift, like Citizen Kane, or that it needs to be. This episode is basically saying "stop taking this kid's show so seriously".

Really, grow a fucking spine and learn to laugh at yourself. This episode was fantastic, because again, it's telling the fandom to stop taking the show seriously.

So basically our just saying 'Its just a kid show!" ugh I hate that argument so much. Is it wrong to want quality in something you like? Yeah some go overboard but this Episode felt hostile towards ..oh 80% of the fandom in general. 

[Celli 4,338]

Just now, BlinkZ said:

So basically our just saying 'Its just a kid show!" ugh I hate that argument so much. Is it wrong to want quality in something you like? Yeah some go overboard but this Episode felt hostile towards ..oh 80% of the fandom in general. 

And yet more people liked it than disliked it. Huh, strange, almost as if most people can laugh at themselves and not taking things so seriously. 

There's nothing wrong with wanting quality, but don't be expecting Citizen Kane level writing. 

And it is a kid's show, sure, it's better than other kid's show, but some people get their panties in a twist when "oh this episode did something I didn't like, worst episode ever!!" My comment was directed towards those who act like they lost a family member when they see an episode they feel is bad. It's. A. Cartoon. Meant to entertain, not have super deep meanings and shit. Sure, it can have serious tones, but for the most part it's a lighthearted show. 

Sheesh.

[BlinkZ 1,151]

20 minutes ago, Celli said:

And yet more people liked it than disliked it. Huh, strange, almost as if most people can laugh at themselves and not taking things so seriously. 

There's nothing wrong with wanting quality, but don't be expecting Citizen Kane level writing. 

And it is a kid's show, sure, it's better than other kid's show, but some people get their panties in a twist when "oh this episode did something I didn't like, worst episode ever!!" My comment was directed towards those who act like they lost a family member when they see an episode they feel is bad. It's. A. Cartoon. Meant to entertain, not have super deep meanings and shit. Sure, it can have serious tones, but for the most part it's a lighthearted show. 

Sheesh.

I guess  that a good point, still feel rather mean spirited kind of treatment. A few meta jokes are fine Yikes.  I"m more annoyed how Ponyville just turn from nice to Hell on a dime. I think that like the 6th time? I can still say I don't like it though.

Edited August 15, 2017 by BlinkZ

[Dowlphin 463]

8 minutes ago, BlinkZ said:

I guess  that a good point, still feel rather mean spirited kind of treatment. A few meta jokes are fine Yikes.  I"m more annoyed how Ponyville just turn from nice to Hell on a dime. I think that like the 6th time? Can stil lsay  I don't like it though.

My take after thinking about it: It's realistic. Look how much positive energy it took for the mane 6 to grow and hone their character. The crazy masses there are triggered by that book release, which brought to the surface what had been slumbering most of the time. (You only learn a person's true character when tested.) Those ponies might never learn. If there is no will, there is nothing you can do.

17 minutes ago, Celli said:

And yet more people liked it than disliked it. Huh, strange, almost as if most people can laugh at themselves and not taking things so seriously. 

There's nothing wrong with wanting quality, but don't be expecting Citizen Kane level writing. 

And it is a kid's show, sure, it's better than other kid's show, but some people get their panties in a twist when "oh this episode did something I didn't like, worst episode ever!!" My comment was directed towards those who act like they lost a family member when they see an episode they feel is bad. It's. A. Cartoon. Meant to entertain, not have super deep meanings and shit. Sure, it can have serious tones, but for the most part it's a lighthearted show. 

Sheesh.

I'm even glad about the flaws. As the episode itself conveyed, although maybe in a somewhat different direction, those flaws are like a test, a rocky coast on which the rigid mind's ship will shatter. It is part of the show's nature and should find the disapproval of those who could use a focus adjustment. Such minds will use obsessing over flaws as a distraction from the good stuff. The good stuff opens the heart. If the mind closed the heart to avoid pain, it will pretend the good stuff is bad because it causes pain; or will outright go into denial of it.

MLP is cathartic medicine for a widespread affliction.

P.S. (Pinkie scriptum): But maybe a picture can convey this better. Have one:

The journey is only for getting to the point where you realize you are already there.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Ganondox 899]

2 hours ago, Tilgoreth said:

But you can't cry about everything. Real life kicks you in the balls than laughs about it. You jusy have to kick life back. You can't expect people to feel sympathy for you, not when everyone else has been through the same or worse. Grow up and get the f**k back out there.

But you don't have empathy with yourself when life kicks you in the balls, it's other people doing the empathizing with you. The actions you make and the actions another person makes are two different things. So while there is value is stoicism, that doesn't mean that empathy isn't a good thing. Ironically the only way this advice would be at all helpful is if you are placing yourself in the victims shoes and found it work in your situation, in which case you'd be invoking empathy either way. More likely though you're just being an jackass who is avoiding the responsibility of helping others by trying to rationalize your way out of it rather than actually empathizing. 

2 hours ago, Tilgoreth said:

I don't think selfishness is wrong though. And some people ar just pussys about everything. Just look at millineals in college.

No, no, and no. You can think selfishness isn't wrong all you want, but the word entails a negative connotation, it means you're harming others in order to benefit yourself. The version of selfishness that isn't necessarily negative is self-interest, and even then it's been mathematically shown that people placing their invidiual self-interest above all else goes against the self-interest of all the individuals in the group collectively, so it's just a bad policy. Second, just because you don't understand what someone's problem is doesn't mean they are "just pussies". Millennial in college are not just whining, do you have any understanding of what their life is like?  The problem is clearly that you lack empathy, and are trying to justify it. Your whole comment is ironic because it screams that you missed the actual point of this episode, you watch the show, but you don't take what it says to heart. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Ganondox

[Tilgoreth 1,915]

11 hours ago, Ganondox said:

But you don't have empathy with yourself when life kicks you in the balls, it's other people doing the empathizing with you. The actions you make and the actions another person makes are two different things. So while there is value is stoicism, that doesn't mean that empathy isn't a good thing. Ironically the only way this advice would be at all helpful is if you are placing yourself in the victims shoes and found it work in your situation, in which case you'd be invoking empathy either way. More likely though you're just being an jackass who is avoiding the responsibility of helping others by trying to rationalize your way out of it rather than actually empathizing. 

No, no, and no. You can think selfishness isn't wrong all you want, but the word entails a negative connotation, it means you're harming others in order to benefit yourself. The version of selfishness that isn't necessarily negative is self-interest, and even then it's been mathematically shown that people placing their invidiual self-interest above all else goes against the self-interest of all the individuals in the group collectively, so it's just a bad policy. Second, just because you don't understand what someone's problem is doesn't mean they are "just pussies". Millennial in college are not just whining, do you have any understanding of what their life is like?  The problem is clearly that you lack empathy, and are trying to justify it. Your whole comment is ironic because it screams that you missed the actual point of this episode, you watch the show, but you don't take what it says to heart. 

Clapping could be heard.

 

[Celli 4,338]

17 hours ago, Sparklefan1234 said:

 

Before @King Clark & @Dark Qiviut explained the episode to me it was a 100 now, it's split in half because, I've had time to think it over for myself.

I just wanna say don't let other people influence your own opinions.

[Dowlphin 463]

Just now, Celli said:

I just wanna say don't let other people influence your own opinions.

You make it sound like it's always bad.

[Celli 4,338]

Just now, Dowlphin said:

You make it sound like it's always bad.

People should form opinions for themselves.

[Tilgoreth 1,915]

Just now, Dowlphin said:

You make it sound like it's always bad.

The devil is my homey. She says that Jesus doesn't like her because he stood her up on a date. Do you beilve me? 

Just now, Celli said:

People should form opinions for themselves.

But what if they're idiots like me.

[Dowlphin 463]

13 minutes ago, Celli said:

People should form opinions for themselves.

Should I ignore this statement of yours so as to not risk having it influence my own opinion? ;-)

[Sparklefan1234 170,429]

1 hour ago, Celli said:

I just wanna say don't let other people influence your own opinions.

 

I usually have a pretty good sense for which episodes are "good" or "bad" so, that doesn't happen very often. 

 "Fame & Misfortune" is a just one of those episode's where I'm unsure how I truly feel about it.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

2 minutes ago, Sparklefan1234 said:

 

I usually have a pretty good sense for which episodes are "good" or "bad" so, that doesn't happen very often. 

 "Fame & Misfortune" is a just one of those episode's where I'm unsure how I truly feel about it.

I am just hoping that isn't how the writers REALLY feel about their fan base, particularly the ones Rarity is meant to represent...

[Hierok 11,831]

4 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I am just hoping that isn't how the writers REALLY feel about their fan base, particularly the ones Rarity is meant to represent...

I can imagine some of them leaving because of the reactions, so that would be Rarity and Fluttershy.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Just now, Hierok said:

I can imagine some of them leaving because of the reactions, so that would be Rarity and Fluttershy.

I think the ones that cringed then gave back as good as they got are the ones that Fluttershy represents

[Hierok 11,831]

Just now, CypherHoof said:

I think the ones that cringed then gave back as good as they got are the ones that Fluttershy represents

Rainbow and Applejack represent the ones where the writers are being stalked by the fans.

Fluttershy and Rarity represent the writers that left the show because of the hurtfull reactions.

Twilight and Pinkie Pie represent the ones who try to make a beautiful episode, but nobody really looks at that and only to the reputation or something like that.

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

15 hours ago, BlinkZ said:

So basically our just saying 'Its just a kid show!" ugh I hate that argument so much. Is it wrong to want quality in something you like? Yeah some go overboard but this Episode felt hostile towards ..oh 80% of the fandom in general. 

Because it is a kid's show. What about that is so difficult to grasp? You say you want quality... quality for who? Just you? This show is aimed at kids, just because a large amount of adults enjoy it to, does not in any way make it any less a kid's show. It is written (most of the time) first and foremost with kids in mind... and the "quality" is tuned around that demographic. What a large majority of "bronies" seem to love to do, is utterly ignore that demographic, and then cry and whine because the show is not raising the bar for them and what they feel it should be.

The sad thing is, the writers have raised the bar.... they have addressed the fandom, they have made entire episodes for the fans, and dropped stuff based upon the wish-lists of the fandom. And yet it is never enough.... it is just more and more griping and hostility and people thinking the show needs to revolve around their demands. You give them an inch, and they grab the damn ruler and try to eat it. This season alone...

OMG they did not show the Apple parents writhing in agony!!! </upset>

Nooooooo!!!!!! Starlight is taking the place of the Mane 6!!!! </rage>

Spike (or anyone really) was not in this episode?? The writers must hate him (her)!!! </sob>

The finale needs to have ______ to be worth anything!!! </ridiculous prattling>

For every demand they meet, the "fans" then tack on a dozen more as if they were writing the series grocery list or something.

 

They made an episode you don't like, so what? I have asked before and will ask again.... did you really think you would love them all? The quality IS there, it is just you are raising your own standard far above what the show is willing to and made for to deliver. The episode was not hostile except toward those who are hostile in some of their actions. If you watch the show and just enjoy it for what it is, this episode probably just bounced off you and you either liked it or not based upon what you saw and how it hit you... however if you are one of those nitpickers who is always pulling the show apart for what it isn't, and criticizing it for what it is... yeah.... it was a direct bonk on your hard.... and a much deserved one at that.

[Dowlphin 463]

The episode is also art in that it offers people an empathic experience regarding the type of fans aimed at. Watching that mass insanity is painful, and you might go: "What warranted this suddenly?". That's how it makes the writers feel. When the mane 6 sing their beautifully uplifting song and then right after it - BAM - NOTHING received, that moment really sucked, right? You go: "This is becoming horribly cynical if not even an episode's highlight can solve the problem anymore". That is how it makes the writers feel. Over 20 minutes you are having their experience, so that you hopefully understand them and recognize the value of what's important about the show.

And the end was conveying the lesson of how to avoid overextending. Did you notice Applejack was first in mentioning they need to deal with the problem at hand, and Twilight said she should stay in the friendship moment? Applejack sang in the song that she has a tendency of wanting to please everypony. The mane 6 there had to focus on their close friendship to recharge their spiritual batteries for a bit in the face of overwhelming hostility.

I myself certainly had and still have to learn in a painful way that it is alright to give up hope on some people or to lose respect. It is a bow of appreciation to the good things in you that said people do not appreciate. They can eventually pick up the bread crumbs if they're lucky. They would just choke on more than that. Going all missionary on them would only feed the insatiable and signal that they have power over you, which is what the whole madness is based on. Sometimes it is wiser to let people stew in their own juice.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Tilgoreth 1,915]

"I just realized my message was very rude. I can't remeber but you reported me for calling you an offesnive slur before right? Regardless I'm sorry about my previous rude message."

Oh, that was you? Didn't realize it because you changed your avatar. You really need to grow up already, otherwise you're going to into big trouble before long as this is not an appropriate way to handle disagreements. You can't just make attacks and then just apologize after the fact and expect people to take your apologies seriously. I'm not going to report you just time, I'm just going to share your response with everyone else in the thread as that is where it belonged. 

Yeah I'm not apoligizing for that message title. 

 

I don't want empathy. I deal with my own problems. I really wish I felt no emotion. Because then I could have no remorse or regrets. But like a pathetic flesh bag I do. But I do hide my emotions for the most part. 

As far as not taking in the values of mlp? F**k that. I don't belive in the collective, I beilve in the individual. Ultimatley none of this matters. When we die we cease to exist. There is no heaven or hell or any god. 

Also flmango flamnago glimmer alert. Don't be such a pretentious d*ck next time.

Now that I think about you seem like the type to get easily offended.

I beat you to posting the content. Feel free to post this. But calm down. Stop with the pointles hostility. You claim empathy is some great thing, yet are clearly hostile towarrds me.

The above is from a PM between me and Gannondox. He'll deny it but he wanted to post this before me without my permission. So I beat him to it. He'll probaly try to unfairllly get me banned now.

22 minutes ago, Tilgoreth said:

"I just realized my message was very rude. I can't remeber but you reported me for calling you an offesnive slur before right? Regardless I'm sorry about my previous rude message."

Oh, that was you? Didn't realize it because you changed your avatar. You really need to grow up already, otherwise you're going to into big trouble before long as this is not an appropriate way to handle disagreements. You can't just make attacks and then just apologize after the fact and expect people to take your apologies seriously. I'm not going to report you just time, I'm just going to share your response with everyone else in the thread as that is where it belonged. 

Yeah I'm not apoligizing for that message title. 

 

I don't want empathy. I deal with my own problems. I really wish I felt no emotion. Because then I could have no remorse or regrets. But like a pathetic flesh bag I do. But I do hide my emotions for the most part. 

As far as not taking in the values of mlp? F**k that. I don't belive in the collective, I beilve in the individual. Ultimatley none of this matters. When we die we cease to exist. There is no heaven or hell or any god. 

Also flmango flamnago glimmer alert. Don't be such a pretentious d*ck next time.

Now that I think about you seem like the type to get easily offended.

I beat you to posting the content. Feel free to post this. But calm down. Stop with the pointles hostility. You claim empathy is some great thing, yet are clearly hostile towarrds me.

The above is from a PM between me and Gannondox. He'll deny it but he wanted to post this before me without my permission. So I beat him to it. He'll probaly try to unfairllly get me banned now.

He's probaly trying to ban me.

 

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, Tilgoreth said:

"I just realized my message was very rude. I can't remeber but you reported me for calling you an offesnive slur before right? Regardless I'm sorry about my previous rude message."

Oh, that was you? Didn't realize it because you changed your avatar. You really need to grow up already, otherwise you're going to into big trouble before long as this is not an appropriate way to handle disagreements. You can't just make attacks and then just apologize after the fact and expect people to take your apologies seriously. I'm not going to report you just time, I'm just going to share your response with everyone else in the thread as that is where it belonged. 

Yeah I'm not apoligizing for that message title. 

 

I don't want empathy. I deal with my own problems. I really wish I felt no emotion. Because then I could have no remorse or regrets. But like a pathetic flesh bag I do. But I do hide my emotions for the most part. 

As far as not taking in the values of mlp? F**k that. I don't belive in the collective, I beilve in the individual. Ultimatley none of this matters. When we die we cease to exist. There is no heaven or hell or any god. 

Also flmango flamnago glimmer alert. Don't be such a pretentious d*ck next time.

Now that I think about you seem like the type to get easily offended.

I beat you to posting the content. Feel free to post this. But calm down. Stop with the pointles hostility. You claim empathy is some great thing, yet are clearly hostile towarrds me.

The above is from a PM between me and Gannondox. He'll deny it but he wanted to post this before me without my permission. So I beat him to it. He'll probaly try to unfairllly get me banned now.

Why would I deny it? Unlike you I don't try to hide hostile behavior behind PMs, and then make superficial apologies because because you're afraid of being banned. There is no rules against sharing the contents of PMs, and I don't think you technically broke any rules this time, your behavior was slimey, so I didn't report it. Here is a direct screenshot of the conversation:

 

 Now, if a conversation is getting off topic, it should be moved to PMs so as to not clog the actual thread, but here the PM was clearly being used to hide aggressive behavior so people wouldn't think poorly of him (this is the second time he has done this to me, each time he made the attack, and then admitted it was an attack immediately afterward, this time in order to avoid getting reported for it), and I'm not going to tolerate that because it's disgusting behavior, it's both cowardly and hostile. Here is the other PM for the record, which I actually did report him for for obvious reasons:

 

Now here is my response to the actual post, which really should have been here instead of this one as it's what he really meant to say, and the comment doesn't even make since without the context:

5 hours ago, Tilgoreth said:

Clapping could be heard.

 

You're attitude is pretty much everything wrong with society nowadays, I'm not even exaggerating, and I'm not going to hold any punches. You call me a pretentious dick and that I get easily offended, yet you're the one who felt the need to send this long rant because people didn't agree with your condescending, self-contradictory rants about empathy. Do you have any self-awareness whatsoever? It's not that I get easily offended, it's that unlike you, I actually care about things and feel the need to help right what is wrong. It's not about me, and it's not about you, it's about ideas that influence far many more people just ourselves. 

It doesn't if you want empathy, it's called responsibility. It's just like like no one cares if you want a job, people still need to work for society to function. If you don't make the effort to help others, how could you expect anyone to help you? That being said, there are times where empathy does get in the way, I know from personal experience. It's not always a good thing, but that's not the argument you were making, you were just shifting the responsibility to the victim. 

As for wishing to not feel emotion, are you sure you really want that? Emotion isn't just regrets, it's also happiness, pleasure, and awe. If not for emotions, then what does the individual have to gain? Even all the "negative" emotions have purpose. We evolved to feel regret because it helps us survive as a species, and it's the individuals in the species which pass down their genes. Anger motivates us to correct injustice, sadness slows us down in difficult times, disgust keeps us healthy, pain prompts us to avoid the things that would destroy us. There is nothing pathetic about feeling emotions. You don't need to hide your emotions, mainly what you are doing is destroying yourself. 

The collective versus the individual is a false dichotomy. The collective isn't some abstract concept, it's just the collection of individuals. When you help the collective, you help the individual. In the long run, when people only help themselves, they only hurt themselves. This isn't just conjecture, it's a proven concept. John Nash, the mathematician in A Beautiful Mind, proved the concept with the Nash Equilibrium, and we have plenty of empirical evidence from evolution. If empathy wasn't generally good for the individual, it wouldn't even exist. 

Needless to say, I don't believe we cease to exist at death, and that's why I care, but even if you do accept nihilism, your argument doesn't make any sense either. You can't say the individual has any worth if you assume nothing has value due to it's ephemeral nature. 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Ganondox

[Dowlphin 463]

15 minutes ago, Venomous said:

I gotta say that this episode made me laugh because I believe it was poking at the adult MLP fandom. Even if that wasn't the intention, that was the feeling I got from it. The episode itself wasn't bad but the ending sorta messed that all up for me. I felt that it was rushed and should have been replaced with the citizens of Ponyville realizing their mistake.

I suppose I am not one for unsolved issues in TV shows...

Well, it was hinted that they'd deal with that problem eventually. How and whether successful will be for the viewer's imagination. One can also imagine several reasons why the writers left it out. Time constraints, connection to real life, continuity difficulty (wanting to keep it mostly an isolated event), a message that you cannot resolve everything and need to accept and live with some/many things.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Gestum 2,493]

Personally I really liked this episode. I don't think any other episode have made me laugh more. The song is the only part I didn't like. It isn't bad but it isn't something to hang in the christmas tree either.