gaming The "BotW" Fallacy

[Cruising 9]

Why do people pretend that this:

 

Looks "much better" than this:

 

Both look like mid-gen Ps3 releases at best. Yet nearly every Switch owner I have conversed with seems to drool at the mouth over BotW while dismissing Sw/Sh as subpar or "disappointing". Open world Pokemon would be nice, but I'm referring mainly to the visual complexity on display here. Why are these people so enamored by BotW's graphical presentation? Is it all some big inside joke I am unaware of?

[Megas 27,563]

>Implying people are wrong for liking BotW's visuals, which is rather insulting

There is no fallacy, BotW is a better looking game, but that's because Zelda games are just bigger in terms of budget and scope

Besides, I've yet to see anyone actually trash Sword/Shield's visual design, at worst I'd say it look's simple, but I would hardly call that a bad thing.

Edited March 3, 2019 by This Whomps

[Cruising 9]

10 minutes ago, This Whomps said:

>Implying people are wrong for liking BotW's visuals, which is rather insulting

Breath of the Wild has become the subject of worship in recent years. Nintendo has had far better looking games on even their past console (namely Mario Kart 8 and Xenoblade X) but for some reason, Nintendo consumers like to act as if BotW is somehow unparalleled not just gameplay-wise, but also from a visual perspective. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter of what "looks better" to them specifically, but graphical complexity is purely an objective factor. I've logged over 50 hours into BotW thus far and I can safely say that it is far from impressive in this respect. The place where it truly shines is in atmosphere, which is accomplished via harmony of the artistic style, musical backdrop, and gameplay mechanics. Just because the game makes you feel good while playing doesn't automatically equate to being objectively head-and-shoulders above the rest in literally every category.

Rough approximates here, so bare with me:

• Pokemon X&Y/Sun & Moon = N64-tier graphics
• Pokemon Let's Go = Gamecube~Early Ps3-tier graphics
• Pokemon Sw/Sh = Ps3-tier graphics
• Breath of the Wild = Ps3-tier graphics

I suppose the one valid criticism that could be made would be since Gen 8 appears to be taking a non-open world route, there is less of an excuse not to use that extra horsepower available to truly push the limits of the Switch and greatly surpass BotW visually. It's obvious that several compromises were necessary to get Zelda to run properly on such an underpowered piece of tech; which is unfortunate since it really seems like Nintendo poured their heart and soul into the development of that game. Sw/Sh's apparent lack of an open world affords Game Freak the potential to push out those high poly counts and sharper textures, but they chose not to take that direction. Frustrating to be certain. That being said, GF has never been known for pushing the limits of any hardware they have developed on, but improvements are inevitable when jumping from the 3ds to the Switch; greater than a 10x increase to system performance. 

[Guest]

Where are these people you speak of?

[Here No Longer 5,276]

Because it does?  I don't understand.

[Cruising 9]

8 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Where are these people you speak of?

Pretty much everywhere, dude. I can barely go 10 seconds on any videogame discussion whether it be online or even irl without people singing the praises of BotW; both visuals and gameplay. Sw/Sh was just revealed a few days ago and already we've got detractors harping on it for not being "like BotW". I'll admit, I really would love to see the level of passion on display in BotW manifested by Game Freak in their newest entry's production; but GF hasn't really shown any true ambition in game design since all the way in Gen 5 (imo). I highly doubt Sw/Sh will contain such dark, enveloping thematic elements as were present in BW. I doubt there will be extremely satisfying, robust, and challenging end-game content like in B2 or Emerald. After abominations like S&M/USUM Gen 8 seems to be a massive step in the right direction, however. The region looks quite beautiful from a stylistic standpoint, and there finally seems to be a proper shift away from the soulless, sterile color palette infesting every Pokemon game since X/Y (hell, even the Gen 4 games were guilty of this to a large degree).

[Guest]

Just now, Cruising said:

Pretty much everywhere, dude. I can barely go 10 seconds on any videogame discussion whether it be online or even irl without people singing the praises of BotW; both visuals and gameplay. Sw/Sh was just revealed a few days ago and already we've got detractors harping on it for not being "like BotW". I'll admit, I really would love to see the level of passion on display in BotW manifested by Game Freak in their newest entry's production; but GF hasn't really shown any true ambition in game design since all the way in Gen 5 (imo). I highly doubt Sw/Sh will contain such dark, enveloping thematic elements as were present in BW. I doubt there will be extremely satisfying, robust, and challenging end-game content like in B2 or Emerald. After abominations like S&M/USUM Gen 8 seems to be a massive step in the right direction, however. The region looks quite beautiful from a stylistic standpoint, and there finally seems to be a proper shift away from the soulless, sterile color palette infesting every Pokemon game since X/Y (hell, even the Gen 4 games were guilty of this to a large degree).

I think you're worried over nothing.

There is a huge level of excitement for Pokemon, and detractors are often just people trying to gain views. It's more view-friendly to say negative things about a popular thing.

Maybe you're reading too much into it and assuming a vocal minority is the majority?

[Cruising 9]

Just now, Key Sharkz said:

detractors are often just people trying to gain views

Just for reference, those Youtube videos are actually people defending the game. They are speaking out against the so called "vocal minority" in this instance, at least. I remember watching the trailer initially thinking to myself "Oh boy all the corporate slaves are gonna be kissing GF's ass over this", so I was primed and ready to tear the game down when debating its merit with my peers, but instead the exact opposite happened. I feel the need to play Devil's advocate in these sort of scenarios because, quite frankly, I find hivemind discussions rather shallow and not stimulating in the least. My opinions on the game were mixed from the get-go, even without my knowledge of how much the game was being lambasted. 

[Guest]

Just now, Cruising said:

Just for reference, those Youtube videos are actually people defending the game. They are speaking out against the so called "vocal minority" in this instance, at least. I remember watching the trailer initially thinking to myself "Oh boy all the corporate slaves are gonna be kissing GF's ass over this", so I was primed and ready to tear the game down when debating its merit with my peers, but instead the exact opposite happened. I feel the need to play Devil's advocate in these sort of scenarios because, quite frankly, I find hivemind discussions rather shallow and not stimulating in the least. My opinions on the game were mixed from the get-go, even without my knowledge of how much the game was being lambasted. 

I find playing devil's advocate for the sake of to be kind of unproductive and a waste of my time, so I'll bow out now if that's the case. No offense, but I'm not really interested in debating the matter for the sake of debating it.

I proposed a possible answer to your question. Take it for what you will. Good luck though!

[Envy 6,142]

Certainly, BoTW's graphics are not always amazing, but I do think it is fair to point out that Pokemon S/S's graphics are subpar in comparison.

I think it goes beyond raw graphics and goes more into landscape design, though. While GF is getting better with each generation, they still seem to be having a hard time really adjusting to 3D landscapes versus the 2.5D they were doing from Gen IV through VI.

For example, when I look at this screenshot...

I still see stiffness and 'square' designs. The pond/lake whatever it is really does not look very natural. BoTW's environments, towns, etc. are so much more dynamic and natural.

Graphically speaking, just look at the trees and plants... I'll post another picture to demonstrate this:

That is... Like The Sims 4 level of detail. Lol. And let me say that is NOT a compliment. These plants look like they could have come straight from Sun/Moon.

BUT there are areas where the graphics look nice (and some areas where it looks awful, and I didn't even get to mentioning it). I'm not going to beat up on GF for it. I do wish it could be better, but I'll wait to see whether the games are any good or not. I'm more worried about the games themselves than the graphics.

[Cruising 9]

2 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

I'll bow out now if that's the case. No offense, but I'm not really interested in debating the matter for the sake of debating it.

That's truly a shame. I quite enjoyed your participation in the last "Switch Debate" thread, prompting some of the most elaborate walls of text I've ever constructed on this forum. I forget wtf the name of the thread in question was, but I believe it was either early or mid 2018. Peace, my dude.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Cruising said:

That's truly a shame. I quite enjoyed your participation in the last "Switch Debate" thread, prompting some of the most elaborate walls of text I've ever constructed on this forum. I forget wtf the name of the thread in question was, but I believe it was either early or mid 2018. Peace, my dude.

I've retired my debate cape, sorry love. :c

[Lord Valtasar 12,690]

from what i see on this post, pokemon's various elements don't mix well together, just look at those trees back there and how empty that mountain range is, breath of the wild, while not having the best graphics a game has seen, has some great level design and esthetics. but like all games, it doesn't really matter, the gameplay is what matters most, and i think both games have that aspect covered

11 minutes ago, Envy said:

 

[Jeric 46,850]

I can respond to this with my general opinion 

 

 

 

 

The first image is still a masterpiece to many, irrespective of its visual accuracy and fidelity. The second image may be more realistic and gorgeous, yet we enter a world of taste when suggesting preference. Video games have reached this point some time ago. 

[Cruising 9]

@Envy I understand where your criticisms are coming from. But to compare Sw/Sh to BotW as an objective step down just doesn't make sense to me (at least not from a purely graphical perspective). Remember, BotW uses extremely abundant hazy effects to hide visual imperfections in the distance. There exists LoD management which results in nearly perpetual pop-in and polygon culling. The lighting can be quite striking at times, but I more likely than not notice just how drab and plain ugly the game can look. 

And don't forget the incredibly drab interiors of buildings.

Or the thick blinding rainstorms, sandstorms, snowstorms that essentially hides a great deal of the graphical flourishes 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Why the game chooses to look so goddamn ugly like 80% of the time I never will know. I can only imagine it was due to the limitations of the Switch's hardware. But when you've got the other 20% looking absolutely incredible like this, it leaves a weird unbalanced taste in my mouth:

 

 

[MangoFoalix 24,943]

Why? Because it's up to a matter of opinion. Just like how yours is an opinion. A persons trash is another persons treasure.

[Cash In 22,211]

Different strokes for different folks.

I'm a fan of both art styles personally, though I prefer Breath of the Wild, as I feel that it has more depth.

[Envy 6,142]

@Cruising I feel like every single game I play has things I really am not impressed with graphically. I was impressed with BOTW more than I was not. The lighting is a bit overbearing, I'll give it that...

However, when we're talking about such things as having to find ways to mask the detail in areas outside of where you're playing, it's not fair to criticize BoTW and compare it to Sword/Shield. Do you know why? Because Sword/Shield isn't an open world game. It doesn't even have that. Even still, if you look at the backgrounds in Sword/Shield, they have very little detail. In fact, they look like they are nothing but cardboard cutouts.

BoTW has a whole explorable world to render, Sword/Shield just has tiny little areas, yet S/S still doesn't make its backgrounds look like they're actual areas. They're like backgrounds on a stage in a play. They don't look believable at all.

[Cruising 9]

1 hour ago, Envy said:

I feel like every single game I play has things I really am not impressed with graphically. I was impressed with BOTW more than I was not.

When indie devs are capable of creating something that looks like this, it becomes quite challenging for me to defend BotW's compromises.

Is it fair to compare a pc game running at max settings to AAA Nintendo release? Probably not. But that's the point. Nintendo is so goddamn far behind it's not even funny. Nintendo fans have become complacent with visual mediocrity; which is a travesty as far as I am concerned. And this doesn't merely apply to games pursuing "realism" either. Just take a look at either Spyro Reignited Trilogy or Kingdom Hearts 3 to see how beautiful games with a "cartoony" aesthetic can look if the devs actually give a damn.

And before anyone claims cel-shaded graphics are incapable of producing technically complex visuals, allow me to present the following:

^Look at the level of detail on that character model. Or the complex animation work. This is not merely a pre-rendered cutscene either; it is running in real time on a base Ps4 console.

Just for fun, compare that model to the ones that are actually pre-rendered in BotW (albiet rendered within engine):

 

The point here is that BOTH Sw/Sh and BotW are massive compromises visually. It just bothers me that people en masse pretend one is godlike, while the other is "subpar". 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Cruising

[Celli 4,337]

No offense OP, but I feel you're looking too deep into this. BotW is a gorgeous game despite the Switch's weaker hardware. The new Pokemon game looks pretty in it's own right as well.

 

6 hours ago, Cruising said:

It just bothers me that people en masse

I'm sorry but I also don't see where you're getting the whole "en masse" It feels like you're pulling numbers out of nowhere without providing evidence to support your claims. Please back up yourself if you make a bold claim.

[Cruising 9]

1 hour ago, Celli said:

No offense OP, but I feel you're looking too deep into this. BotW is a gorgeous game despite the Switch's weaker hardware. The new Pokemon game looks pretty in it's own right as well.

 

Holy crap! Did I just get Celli to admit the Switch has inferior hardware?!

[Celli 4,337]

2 minutes ago, Cruising said:

Holy crap! Did I just get Celli to admit the Switch has inferior hardware?!

 

So are you going to address my other responses?

[Cruising 9]

27 minutes ago, Celli said:

So are you going to address my other responses?

Regarding? You mean your assertion that these Switch fans who think BotW looks way better than Sw/Sh are imaginary? They are literally a dime a dozen at this point, bro. You want some links or sommat? I'm more surprised that you have yet to encounter such individuals than anything else atm. 

[Usager 433]

nice cherry picked image you got there pal. both games looks gorgeus.

tho, breath of the wild have a more live ambience

[Celli 4,337]

37 minutes ago, Cruising said:

Regarding? You mean your assertion that these Switch fans who think BotW looks way better than Sw/Sh are imaginary? They are literally a dime a dozen at this point, bro. You want some links or sommat? I'm more surprised that you have yet to encounter such individuals than anything else atm. 

I fail to see how it's anything but a vocal number of people who are saying these things.