Theory Pony Theory: Is Harmony evil?

[TheEngineer 188]

This is a theory of mine that I recently put together about the show. I would appreciate any feedback, especially if you can find holes in my argument. Criticism is always welcome! 

 

Chaos and evil are supposed to go hand in hand in Equestria. The Tree and Elements of Harmony both have been used to vanquish discord and restore the rule of Celestia and Luna which means that life is harmonious for Equestria. They oppose and have tamed Discord, who is supposed to represent the forces of Chaos. It seems so straightforward: Celestia is good and Discord evil. Well, it is straightforward, until you consider cutie marks. 

 

Cutie marks are symbols that tell a pony his or her destiny in the MLP universe. Most of what we know about them is positive and comes from Twilight and her friends. Still, what about those ponies who cutie marks remind them of a destiny set for them which isn't so positive after all? 

 

Consider Snips and Snails, the servants who work in Canterlot, or any pony whose cutie mark reminds them that their destiny is to do repetitive tasks all day long, every day. In the MLP universe they are imprisoned by destiny. Not only not are they recognized as not important by those marks, but they will be constrained by their destinies and constantly reminded of them. This isn't just one or two ponies, but probably hundreds or even thousands. Imagine how many ponies in the show have servant, labor, or other unfortunate positions in Equestria; that is a number far larger than Twilight and her companions. 

 

The nature of destiny in MLP is not expounded upon much, but it is clear enough that a force outside of the control of most ponies is responsible for it. Destiny or fate is, by definition, outside of one's control. This is why the Cutie Mark Crusaders, no matter how much they try, cannot force their cutie marks to appear.

 

Can this force behind destiny and cutie marks really be benevolent when it sets a destiny for ponies who are forever trapped in a life of insignificance or suffering? At the very least, it is difficult to answer that question in the affirmative. If this force is malevolent then, who is responsible for it? 

 

Here, we reach the logical conclusion, the destiny of ponies is part of the grander schematic of Harmony or order. Only within the framework of order does every pony having a predetermined place in society make any sense. This is hinted at throughout the series as each pony, under Celestia's rule and the forces of harmony, is supposed to find their cutie mark which shows them their destiny. Therefore, though Celestia may not be at fault, the underlying forces of harmony certainly are and Celestia is invested in defending the status quo. 

 

Which side, then, is really evil? Is it not possible that the real injustice in Equestria stems from the force of Harmony itself; backed by royal sisters? 

 

In fact, we have had it backwards the entire time. While we looked to Celestia and Harmony for goodness, hundreds of ponies were saddled with destinies that doomed them to a life of insignificance and suffering. Indeed, as the ponies who have these cutie marks stayed in our blind spot, we also missed the only possibility of escape from this destiny: returning the world to it's natural uncertain state. Though Discord the character may have been selfish, the forces he represented are the only escape from a predetermined world in which ponies live as automatons to Celestia's order. 

Edited December 29, 2013 by TheEngineer

[~Luminiferous Ether~ 107]

Notions of good or evil are decided upon as a social consensus.

Otherwise they be perception based.

I'll expound on this when I remember, must sleep now.

[TheEngineer 188]

Then I could simply adjust my topic to say, "Are Harmony and Celestia the real villains?" That would make more sense, I just used evil as in the context of the show. 

[BalanceBrony 259]

Oh lordy. I got stuffs on this. Plenty of stuffs. I submit as counterarguments my own interpretations of destiny and Harmony.

 

Most Relevant: http://balancebrony.tumblr.com/post/65849126033/on-mlp-and-destiny

 

If you are interested in my own views of Harmony: http://smith5000123.tumblr.com/

 

As my name suggests, Harmony and Balance are two major focuses of all of my philosophical explorations ever. I have plenty on the subject. But if you don't have the time, or are not interested in extended reading of my ideas, then here are the basics.

 

Read the first link, as it directly pertains to this thread.

 

Read this if you don't want to skim a whole blog:

-----------------------------------------

 

Recently, I got into a very in-depth discussion on the RuneScape forums about Balance. And after having this discussion, which centered on the importance of Balance, I, with the help of other Isorropists, realised that I’ve been getting it allll wrong. I’ve spent so much time and energy trying to figure out how to prove Balance exists, as a force which drives the Universe. But in so doing, I lost the true meaning of Balance as an idea- that is the notion of Harmony, wherein all aspects of existence coexist in wondrous multiplicity. All different things and ideas work together to create the whole picture. Opposites are still involved, but only as one element of existence.

 

But there are so many other things than simple black and white. And all of these things ought be recognised for their role in making everything beautiful. That is the true meaning of Balance. Harmony, and the existence of all things in unity, forming the wonderful work of art called the Universe. I thank my fellow RuneScape forumers and My Little Pony for my enlightenment with regards to what Harmony is really about.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

That's what I'm giving to you for now. But as you can tell, I am wholly and utterly in disagreement with the notion that Harmony is evil. Further, I see nothing wrong with the idea of Destiny. In fact, I find it better than free will, because true determinism holds that everyone has a purpose and niche in life, a very liberating idea.

 

Happy reading! And I can't wait to hear from you. I've never before heard somebody call Harmony evil, so such a point means that this will be a very enlightening discussion. Time to destroy my confirmation bias!

[Malinter 3,064]

Saying Harmony is evil is like saying Chaos is good which it isn't. 

[Bendy 1,819]

Discord is chaotic neutral, he's neither good nor evil, just a little crazy. He represents change. 

 

Princess Celestia is more less lawful good. However, her evil counterpart  from The Conversion Bureau is Lawful Evil, possablily Chaotic Evil.

 

King Sombra seems Chaotic evil.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Rush

[zev_zev The outcast 415]

There two quaetions in your theory:

 

1) What harmony is? I also have a theory about what harmony is, you can read it here: http://mlpforums.com/topic/82186-the-creator-of-everything-or-the-primal-chaos-theory/#entry2112998. Besides, chaos isn't bad thing as far as it's not a good thing, chaos is chaos. Without chaos there would be no order, no harmony, no light, without chaos, there would be nothing

 

2)Whether everything that happens is a grand blueprint of Celestia? Well my opinion: yes.

Edited December 29, 2013 by zev_zev

[Jammo 986]

Unless you are speaking from the perspective of a lovecraftian elder god, harmony shouldn't be seen as nothing but good.

[BalanceBrony 259]

There two quaetions in your theory:

 

1) What harmony is? I also have a theory about what harmony is, you can read it here: http://mlpforums.com/topic/82186-the-creator-of-everything-or-the-primal-chaos-theory/#entry2112998. Besides, chaos isn't bad thing as far as it's not a good thing, chaos is chaos. Without chaos there would be no order, no harmony, no light, without chaos, there would be nothing

 

2)Whether everything that happens is a grand blueprint of Celestia? Well my opinion: yes.

 

 

Saying Harmony is evil is like saying Chaos is good which it isn't.

Both of you seem to be under the mindset that Harmony is the opposite of Chaos. Such is not the case. Chaos and Order are opposites. Harmony just is. It is a neutral state of things.

 

EDIT: Sorry. You know this already, zev-zev.

Edited December 29, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[zev_zev The outcast 415]

In my theory (what you didn't read as I see) I explained that harmony is the essence of light, chaos and order, order and chaos it's a not compatible elements, so the linking chain for them is a light

[BalanceBrony 259]

In my theory (what you didn't read as I see) I explained that harmony is the essence of light, chaos and order, order and chaos it's a not compatible elements, so the linking chain for them is a light

I just read it. Forgive my ignorant post at first.

 

But I do disagree however. You can combine opposite forces. And in fact, such is necessary if there is to be Harmony. Too much Order, and you have suppression, and tyrrany. Too much Chaos and you have crime, danger, and violence. You need some Order and some Chaos for the best society possible. The linking force is Balance. Light can't be it because both Light and Darkness are required for Harmony.

Edited December 29, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[SharpWit 2,472]

I see it more as an uneven balance of things where instead of working together, the forces of chaos and harmony fight for dominance, because like evil, they all have their own motives or agendas.

[FNGRpony 655]

we could have it back words.

 

That's why we have fans arguing up and down discord isn't evil LOL.  Chaos is an inspiration for creativity and haromeny when taken to it's extreme i would think is conformity, stagnation.

 

The easy answer OP is to much of anything is a bad thing.  Including harmony,

but hay i'm on team bad guy what do i know.

[TheEngineer 188]

Oh lordy. I got stuffs on this. Plenty of stuffs. I submit as counterarguments my own interpretations of destiny and Harmony.

 

Most Relevant: http://balancebrony.tumblr.com/post/65849126033/on-mlp-and-destiny

 

If you are interested in my own views of Harmony: http://smith5000123.tumblr.com/

 

As my name suggests, Harmony and Bala

[zev_zev The outcast 415]

I just read it. Forgive my ignorant post at first.

 

But I do disagree however. You can combine opposite forces. And in fact, such is necessary if there is to be Harmony. Too much Order, and you have suppression, and tyrrany. Too much Chaos and you have crime, danger, and violence. You need some Order and some Chaos for the best society possible. The linking force is Balance. Light can't be it because both Light and Darkness are required for Harmony.

 

I think you are confusing the concepts of balance and harmony, it's completely different things. Balance = Light + Darkness. Harmony can't exist with darkness, but also Harmony can't exist Harmony without Chaos. Chaos is a must-have element for everything. This is the basis of all things

Edited December 29, 2013 by zev_zev

[FNGRpony 655]

I think you are confusing the concepts of balance and harmony, it's completely different things. Balance = Light + Darkness. Harmony can't exist with darkness, but also Harmony can't exist Harmony without Chaos. Chaos is a must-have element for everything. This is the basis of all things

by the shows standard they had harmoeny for 1000 years with out chaos.

 

that was 0 balance.  I'm just saying by the show's canon.

[zev_zev The outcast 415]

by the shows standard they had harmoeny for 1000 years with out chaos.

 

that was 0 balance.  I'm just saying by the show's canon.

Of course 0 balance, because there was almost no darkness in Equestria (after Luna's fall)

[FNGRpony 655]

Of course 0 balance, because there was almost no darkness in Equestria (after Luna's fall)

interesting point.

 

Are you suggesting the fact we have a master of harmoeny like twilight and the main six that evil because of balance is drawn to that?

[zev_zev The outcast 415]

interesting point.

 

Are you suggesting the fact we have a master of harmoeny like twilight and the main six that evil because of balance is drawn to that?

 

No, as like I said earlier, balance and harmony is different things. The balance consists of darkness and light. Harmony consists of order, chaos, and light. Let's divide mane 6: Twilight Sparkle impersonate of order. Same with Rarity but not so much as Twi. Fluttrshy undoubtedly impersonate of light. Applejack too. Pinkie Pie is a totally creation of Chaos. Rainbow Dash refers to the element of chaos too, but not so much as Pinkie. Togeather mane 6 impersonate Harmony. About 6 elements, well same story: Kindnees and honesty = light. Laughter and loyalty = Chaos ( loyalty to a lesser extent ) Magic and generosity = Order.

 

P.S. YAY, I got promotion in rank here!

Edited December 29, 2013 by zev_zev

[BalanceBrony 259]

snip snip

Ah! Fascinating points you have! I'm enjoying this discussion.

 

Regarding destiny and duty, do recall that ponies, while they have a set-in-stone talent, can still choose to do with that talent. For example. Rarity's talent is finding gems. But she uses that talent in her trade of making designer dresses, which was her choice. Her, and everypony else has no fixed goal. They just have a certain something that they are good at (which means everypony is excellent at something), and can do what they want with that something.

 

Determinism is certainly a curious concept to discuss. The way I see it is like this. Harmony isn't some sentient force dishing things out. It is a state of existence. A state where things just happen. I want to avoid discussing the nature of the soul if possible, but Harmony could work like this. Say you have your soul, where your consciousness and personality lie. Everypony has a uniqueness about them. Further, the events which happen to them through forces which they cannot control shape them by reacting with their base soul, defining them further as an individual.

 

When you reach a decision-making point in your life, you can see the different futures which may lay before you, and based on who you are and what you want in life, you will pick a certain path. You weren't forced into that path by any coercive force. Your mindset led you to one decision. At the moment of choice, you can see the different futures briefly. But once you have made a choice, you are set on a new path. The further you go down that path, the further away the choice seems, and the less probable the other paths seem. Once you have gone far enough, to the point of no regrets, you will have the mindset that your life couldn't have gone any other way. I call it the time dilution effect. Eventually, you can scarcely imagine the other potential futures.

 

So here is where that puts determinism. You may not have a choice in who you are, but who you are is not something you can change or want to change (usually). And who you are is what determines your life for you. It is not some force. You could even argue that it's just chaos theory. Some random events happened to make you who you are, and based on your psychological and biological features, you would only ever choose a certain path. It's the same either way. You don't have a choice, but for all intensive purposes, all of your perceptions lead you to believe you are choosing. And to you, it is a choice. To you, the different paths seem real. To you who are being affected, it is very real. The only way it would ever seem to be deterministic is if you were an objective being, looking down on you. Since we are not objective, this kind of determinism doesn't affect us negatively in any way.

 

In fact, to tie it into Harmony, it is in fact a positive thing. Harmony, as I see it, is not a force, or a being. It is a state. And it is a natural state as well. Harmony is the natural state of existence wherein the Universe is self-regulating. All aspects of existence work together in unity to form a beauty of creation. Harmony does not determine, or harm, or help. It is not good, or evil, light, or dark. Harmony just is.

 

That being said, I will bring this back to determinism. In a system of Harmony, all forces, beings, events, and whatever have you, through whatever circumstances cross and intermingle constantly. Certain things lead to certain other things. Different things interact in different ways at different times, but it is all causal, determined by the natural ways of existence, and the natural drives created by the souls of whatever things have consciousness. Harmony's beauty lies in seeing it all happen; seeing all of the different intermingling threads of existence which make life great. Part of the beauty lies in the amazing events which transpired to lead to a given thing, including the causal path brought about by the deterministic nature of our souls.

 

Think of the grandness of it all... Every little nuance of my 19 year old life has had some role in getting me here on the forums to talk with you folks. And who knows what chain of events led you here as well. Then think about the events which led to the shaping events of this moment. And the things which brought about those things. That is an almost negligible fraction of the picture. Think of all the complexity which was necessary just to bring you and me here at this given time. Then think of that infinitely multiplied. Plurality, multiplicity, beauty, balance, Harmony... That is what makes life beautiful. Determinism is but one of the wonderful aspects of existence, giving everypony purpose, to be a part of something wonderful.

 

To address @, and continue this train of thought, you are correct. Balance and Harmony are separate concepts. Harmony is what I just described. Harmony and multiplicity. Beauty and awesomeness. Balance is much simpler than that, though not as simple as Light and Dark. Balance, strictly defined, is the state where two aspects of a duality coexist in peace. Balance is Chaos and Order coexisting. Balance is also Light and Dark coexisting. Balance is any two opposites coexisting.

 

You have a slight misunderstanding of the philosophical concept of Balance. The teachings of Balance inherently contradict what you are arguing about Light and Dark, Chaos and Order. These forces are inseparable. it is impossible to have Light, but not Darkness. It is impossible to have Chaos and not Order. If Chaos exists, there will be Order somewhere, because Order is the absence of Chaos. If Light exists, Dark will also exist, because Dark is the absence of Light.

 

Further, the teachings of Harmony state that for the most beautiful thing to exist, all things need to coexist peacefully, regardless of where they stand. All parts of existence are necessary for things to work perfectly. The perfect society will be a society of Harmony, where all things coexist without hurting other things too much. The best society will have both Order and Chaos, Light and Dark, with all of them coexisting in Harmony. At least, that is what Isorropism teaches.

[zev_zev The outcast 415]

Don't forget about primal chaos, from the elder times, when was nothing be in universe, no dark, no light, no order, only chaos.

 

We are both right, because we are speaking about complitly different things :(I understood what are you talking about, you talking about dark and light, chaos and order in basic philosophical concepts, whose meaning is,that everything is interconnected and inseparable from each other, and you right.

I'm talking about chaos and order. I was just wondering about this from a technical "mathematical"points of view. I believe, therefore, that the darkness (evil)is not necessary for harmony existing,do not confuse the notion of darkness as an absolute evil and darkness, as the natural phenomenon of existence( e.g. death or night.)

Edited December 30, 2013 by zev_zev

[TheEngineer 188]

Ah! Fascinating points you have! I'm enjoying this discussion.

 

Regarding destiny and duty, do recall that ponies, while they have a set-in-stone talent, can still choose to do with that talent. For example. Rarity's talent is finding gems. But she uses that talent in her trade of making designer dresses, which was her choice. Her, and everypony else has no fixed goal. They just have a certain something that they are good at (which means everypony is excellent at something), and can do what they want with that something.

 

Determinism is certainly a curious concept to discuss. The way I see it is like this. Harmony isn'

Edited December 30, 2013 by TheEngineer

[BalanceBrony 259]

Don't forget about primal chaos, from the elder times, when was nothing be in universe, no dark, no light, no order, only chaos.

 

We are both right, because we are speaking about complitly different things :(I understood what are you talking about, you talking about dark and light, chaos and order in basic philosophical concepts, whose meaning is,that everything is interconnected and inseparable from each other, and you right.

I'm talking about chaos and order. I was just wondering about this from a technical "mathematical"points of view. I believe, therefore, that the darkness (evil)is not necessary for harmony existing,do not confuse the notion of darkness as an absolute evil and darkness, as the natural phenomenon of existence( e.g. death or night.)

I'm glad that you clarified. To address this new point where, by darkness, you mean evil, and by light you mean the forces of good, I would provide this perspective. From the perspective of the way things naturally are, there is no such thing as good and evil. They are philosophical constructs inherent only in the consciousness of sentient beings. These two forces are excepted from discussions of Harmony because Harmony is natural, whereas Good and Evil are not. In a natural state, these forces aren't an issue.

 

And in fact, to pull in @@TheEngineer, I would posit that based on the above statement to zev_zev that Harmony is natural, and therefore cannot by quantified in terms of artificial constructs of sentient races. So it cannot be Evil, or Good for that matter.

 

I would agree with the points you made about Harmony not properly existing in Equestria. There is too much Order and not enough Chaos, as covered by this post: http://balancebrony.tumblr.com/post/64964500784/chaos-is-it-really-evil

 

What the ponies seek is an inherent contradiction. They are trying to achieve Harmony without Chaos. They need to do something where Discord is given just a bit of leash. Have him cause a small-scale disaster somewhere, then fixing it will allow change and growth, which are Chaos's positive features, among others. Otherwise, Equestrian society will eventually stagnate at wither from too much Order, and not enough Chaos. And a stagnated society is not a manifestation of Harmony.

[TheEngineer 188]

I'm glad that you clarified. To address this new point where, by darkness, you mean evil, and by light you mean the forces of good, I would provide this perspective. From the perspective of the way things naturally are, there is no such thing as good and evil. They are philosophical constructs inherent only in the consciousness of sentient beings. These two forces are excepted from discussions of Harmony because Harmony is natural, whereas Good and Evil are not. In a natural state, these forces aren't an issue.

 

And in fact, to pull in @@TheEngineer, I would posit that based on the above statement to zev_zev that Harmony is natural, and therefore cannot by quantified in terms of artificial constructs of sentient races. So it cannot be Evil, or Good for that matter.

 

I would agree with the points you made about Harmony not properly existing in Equestria. There is too much Order and not enough Chaos, as covered by this post: http://balancebrony.tumblr.com/post/64964500784/chaos-is-it-really-evil

 

What the ponies seek is an inherent contradiction. They are trying to achieve Harmony without Chaos. They need to do something where Discord is given just a bit of leash. Have him cause a small-scale disaster somewhere, then fixing it will allow change and growth, which are Chaos's positive features, among others. Otherwise, Equestrian society will eventually stagnate at wither from too much Order, and not enough Chaos. And a stagnated society is not a manifestation of Harmony.

 

I hate to depart from the original post too much, but I have to disagree about chaos. Chaos is needed for change only when people do not see the intrinsic value in improving the human conditions without need but because we can benefit as individuals and as a whole. 

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

Reminds me of the happy slave in The Pitt, Fallout 3.

He is okay with his destiny because he doesn't see any way around his situation. So he makes the best he can from his life.

 

The problem with this interpretation of the cutie marks is that you are looking at it from the outside. A pony is just happy that he found his talent. What is he going to do with it? The point is that they are happy with their talents, after all, a cutie mark with a broom says that this pony is good cleaning houses. But which house? He is not a slave to his destiny. He can use his talents in many other roads. Will he be cleaning Her Highness' room? Some dark cellar? Maybe he'll work for Blueblood. Or maybe he'll work for Fancypants. Which paths, within the open paths did he chose.

 

The point is, while he is doing it, he can be happy, he can feel fulfilled. It depends on his choices, not his destiny.

 

After all, Rarity is not doomed to finding geodes. She uses this path that has opened for her for her own good. Twlight may have never become princess, but she might have become another thing that relates to her cutie mark, that is not necessarily bad.

 

I think that your premise that the ponies are bound by some external force is wrong. I don't know what harmony, Discord or Celestia have to do with ponies and their cutie marks. Besides, the show plays a very straightforward tune: Harmony good; Chaos bad.

 

I think that you are trying to paint Royal Pony Sisters as a tyrants that hand (hoof?) down tasks to be done regardless of what ponies think of them. The cutie marks are intrinsic to a pony and what they do with the paths they have before them is for them to decide. Their cutie mark are a symbol of what makes them special that they get when they understand what it is.