"Reformed" Villains, Yay or Nay?

[Forlong 1,726]

It depends on the villain.  Some villains I would rather be evil until they are permanently neutralized as a threat.  Chrysalis and Sombra for example.  However, some villains should be reformed.  Trixie and Sunset Shimmmer were already, it would be interesting if Gilda was reformed as well.

[Castle Bleck 19,291]

@Koelath,

 

I sort of liked Trixie's.

 

But Sunset's?

[TurtlesForSale 128]

I don't really like the idea but ones like Gilda, Lightning dust and Trixie are fine with me, I think Discord is nice reformed as he still has his great trolling personality and isn't 100% good. Other than the characters I have mentioned I don't think any others should be reformed.

[Kitsunin 41]

I think that you can do it well if you really really think it through. Like in The Last Airbender, Zuko's story was just argafargling fantastic, probably the best aspect of that whole excellent show. None of this "Ooh magic he's a good guy" crap unless they aren't really that bad of guys in the first place, like Jesse and James of Team Rocket is another great example of the bad guys acting as good guys sometimes.

 

When it comes to MLP...even if I was okay with Discord's reform, and I wouldn't shout from the rooftops about how it sucked and didn't make sense, it was still hells of lazy.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Kitsunin

[Castle Bleck 19,291]

@Kitsunin,

 

Team Rocket was the best part of the Best Wishes arc. They especially helped me forget what a...

 

 

...Team Plasma turned out to be there.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

I want a reoccuring villain! Discord could have been this villain! Discord was awesome in Return of Harmony and is now a joke. He was dangerous and legitimately threatening, he was manipulative and cruel. As a bringer if chaos and conflict he could do all sorts of wonderful things... now he is on Fluttershy's leash.

 

He has gone from taking over Equestria to trying, and failing, to ruining Twilight's day... topping it off by becoming sick for real. Ponies don't take him seriously any more... I don't take him seriously an more. He is now nothing more then an annoying, asshole troll that can't think big. Held back because the writers say so and an unhealthy friendship with Fluttershy. Hell no one but Fluttershy is Discord's friend, nobody else trusts him and are actively antagonistic towards him... and for good reason.

 

Discord's reform is a joke and I feel should never have happened.

Edited February 17, 2014 by EquestrianScholar

[RainbowEclipse 6]

I don't know. Something felt really strange when Discord was reformed. It was like he was a totally different person. Some people thought that episode was great, but I didn't really like it. They shouldn't of reformed Discord.

[Shift 4,272]

Trixie, Sunset Shimmer, and DT&SS should be reformed, though Trixie already got the reformation treatment.

[Koelath 445]

"why did the elements would turn a potentially redeemable character into a cruel case of And I Must Scream?"

They didn't. Discord was not potentially redeemable then. He was a chaotic tyrant through-and-through.

 

Discord's potential for redemption came primarily from fear. Once he knew what the Elements could do (post-petrification), they could be used to keep him in line and work a reformation. Back when Celestia and Luna first fought him, they had no such leverage.

 

Same reason Nightmare Moon was initially banished. There was no way to restore Luna at the time (given the disharmonious state of the Elements' handlers - Celestia and Luna - they would have been weakened), but the immediate threat still had to be stopped.

 

And you'll notice, we don't see Chrysalis explicitly wiped out either. She's just kinda launched into the distance and not seen again. Thus far, only Sombra has appeared to be outright destroyed by the Elements (being blown up and all) though pieces may have survived.

[hawkflame 3,310]

I will repeat until the day I die that Discord being reformed was a bad idea. What made him great in Return of Harmony wasn't just that he was funny. He was also genuinely menacing. Now that menace is gone, and while they've made entertaining use of him in season 4, I still wish they would have left him alone.

 

Return of Harmony (both parts) make for, in my opinion, the absolute dramatic peak of the entire show. But now I can't watch it because I see what Discord was and I lament what's been taken away from him.

[Forlong 1,726]

I will repeat until the day I die that Discord being reformed was a bad idea. What made him great in Return of Harmony wasn't just that he was funny. He was also genuinely menacing. Now that menace is gone, and while they've made entertaining use of him in season 4, I still wish they would have left him alone.

 

Return of Harmony (both parts) make for, in my opinion, the absolute dramatic peak of the entire show. But now I can't watch it because I see what Discord was and I lament what's been taken away from him.

But, if Discord really wanted to win, he would have put the Elements of Harmony in a lava flow or someplace else ponies couldn't survive.  He never really cared about winning, just having fun.

 

As for menace, I'd say we've already got somepony for that:

[hawkflame 3,310]

But, if Discord really wanted to win, he would have put the Elements of Harmony in a lava flow or someplace else ponies couldn't survive. He never really cared about winning, just having fun.

 

That's my point. He could have just brute force brainwashed them like he did with Fluttershy. But it was more fun for him to put them through the mental torment that he did. Reforming him is sort of like reforming the Joker.

 

Discord was epic in Return of Harmony. Now he's just another character.

[Castle Bleck 19,291]

(...) Thus far, only Sombra has appeared to be outright destroyed by the Elements Crystal Heart (being blown up and all) though pieces may have survived.

 

There you go, all fixed salvaged redeemed for you.

[Koelath 445]

There you go, all fixed salvaged redeemed for you.

 

Same plot device, different name.

[LooneyBrony 6]

Discord's potential for redemption came primarily from fear. Once he knew what the Elements could do (post-petrification), they could be used to keep him in line and work a reformation. Back when Celestia and Luna first fought him, they had no such leverage.

 

That ... just makes episode's writing terribly horrifying: "Reform" characters through fear?? That's as much as a "friendship" as forcing a person to enjoy a meal at gunpoint then psychologically torturing them to so that the victim "admits" that the meal was good! That's no way to win over house guests let alone make friends.

 

What should have happened was that Discord should be shown that his chaos could be used to do "better" things that he might enjoy and potentially form a more believable bond with the Mane 6.

 

For instance, because the fandom seem to think that Pinkie Pie is the closest of the Mane 6 to Discord (an argument really hard to argue against), we can form that bond through contrasting the "chaos" of pinkie pie to the chaos of Discord (non-shipping cuz f*** that). And what better place to show a bit of "chaos" than at a Party!

 

Discord becomes an impromptu (and somewhat unwelcome) Master of ceremonies through "helping" Pinkie Pie. However, where Pinkie Pie knows her limits (as seen in Griffon the Brush Off) Discord doesn't. At first, he gets a few guests upset but he does provide some pretty good random entertainment and the guests enjoy the party even more.

 

And slowly, we see the crowd begin to love Discord for his randomness, the feeling of happiness from others being something that he never experienced before because he, as Celestia exposited, "ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness." However, Discord then starts making things too chaotic.

 

When the Mane 6 begin to step up against Discord, he can use his chaos to distract the Mane 6. Eventually, he's caused enough Chaos to keep everyone busy and then he reminisces on how all this suffering felt familiar....wait!!

 

That's when a sort of existential crisis will hit him. He's found a new way to have his chaotic fun: through the enjoyment of others and he's now going back on the "old ways" of his rule where everybody just suffered? "That's....boring" he'll say.

 

He'll then restore everything to their proper places and begrudgingly agree that it was pretty fun when he does good. So when he goes back to Celestia, that D**N TWO-FACED UNTRUSTING SIDELOOK GIVEN BY CELESTIA + THE OTHER MANE 5 AT THE END would be more appropriate as he wants to try good for a change but still is shown to be a the mischief maker at heart.

 

Plus, with a few minor changes, it would make Discord's antics and actions in later episodes make MUUUCH more sense (ironically): That one line from Fluttershy in PTS ("And if you want to keep being friends...and help us clean up."): Holding that "friendship" hostage to make him do your bidding? ...Really??

 

Aside from that, I agree that the disharmony between the sisters made the elements not work right and caused the moon banishment (shooting your own friend and loved one through an artifact of friendship and harmony, "not cool. Here's your punishment" say the Elements)

 

But Chrysalis was blown back by the power of love and Sombra was killed by......positive feelings....?

Edited February 21, 2014 by LooneyBrony

[Singe 2,111]

Reforming a villain is bad in the aspect that it goes against the idea of being true to one self and having to change into someone that is acceptable by the Ponies.

 

 

Some villains in which the ponies find the reason behind the villain being evil in the first place and resolve it to take away the villain's reason to be evil is the only acceptable way. Like if Pinkie Pie destroyed a prized family possession causing the pony to turn evil and attack the Mane 6. Then later it was restored by Rarity, which causes the villain to stop.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Singe

[Untitled Goose Q 5,137]

Discord's reformation was done right. It works, and Discord is still a great character.

 

But we can't have too many more reformations, otherwise it would be "oh look, a new villain, who soon is going to be a good guy". It would get boring, and stale, and defeat the whole object of villains.

[Moonbacon 384]

its really depends how the writters reformed the characters.

 

 

also i though the tittle said "retarted" VIllains lol

[Everleaf 541]

Chrysalis would make a good return but maybe mess of a villain role i actually feel kind of sorry for her and when you think about it shes not so evil she only did what she did so she could get food for her kingdom if not they could die of hunger and Equestria having the most love is the best place for her to seek so shes not evil to me just misunderstood and i would be happy for her to return...

[Discordian 6,015]

Doesn't work so well with most characters. Discord is the only one it would work with in MLP because of the chaotic nature of his...everything. In Discord's terms all it'd really take is the flip of a mental switch to be a good or bad guy. His personality wouldn't need to change in the slightest.

 

If you think about it he never really brought any real harm to the ponies even when he was evil. He just turned their entire world topsy-turvy to the point of inducing madness.

 

It would work much the same way with any neutrally-aligned characters in anything. The difference between good guy and bad guy is simply a matter of who they agree with.

Chrysalis would make a good return but maybe mess of a villain role i actually feel kind of sorry for her and when you think about it shes not so evil she only did what she did so she could get food for her kingdom if not they could die of hunger and Equestria having the most love is the best place for her to seek so shes not evil to me just misunderstood and i would be happy for her to return...

Maybe, maybe not but progeny via destruction of existing lifeforms isn't exactly "good guy" type of thinking either. If it were truly possible to just accept them into Equestrian society I'm certain Twilight and Celestia would have tried to find a way to do that instead of banishing them to who knows what corners of the planet.

 

On top of that, Chrysalis herself portrayed some pretty malicious intent even when she was alone and not being watched or heard by anyone such as during the song This Day Aria. She showed not even a lick of remorse for doing what she was. She didn't even treat it as if it was something she was forced to do, she even took pleasure in it.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Discordian

[Everleaf 541]

Doesn't work so well with most characters. Discord is the only one it would work with in MLP because of the chaotic nature of his...everything. In Discord's terms all it'd really take is the flip of a mental switch to be a good or bad guy. His personality wouldn't need to change in the slightest.

 

If you think about it he never really brought any real harm to the ponies even when he was evil. He just turned their entire world topsy-turvy to the point of inducing madness.

 

It would work much the same way with any neutrally-aligned characters in anything. The difference between good guy and bad guy is simply a matter #of who they agree with.

 

Maybe, maybe not but progeny via destruction of existing lifeforms isn't exactly "good guy" type of thinking either. If it were truly possible to just accept them into Equestrian society I'm certain Twilight and Celestia would have tried to find a way to do that instead of banishing them to who knows what corners of the planet.

 

On top of that, Chrysalis herself portrayed some pretty malicious intent even when she was alone and not being watched or heard by anyone such as during the song This Day Aria. She showed not even a lick of remorse for doing what she was. She didn't even treat it as if it was something she was forced to do, she even took pleasure in it.

 

 

 

But then that's what the show is trying to make you think since her at least seeming evil would put more of a story line to the plot and it would be pretty blank if she seemed as a good guy in that episode it would ruin it a little even know if you think about it she is not so bad yeah maybe she was a little like that in This day aria but hey it's a song a awesome one in that even in This day aria she did not seem so evil just kinda up with the pride as we all get sometimes she could also be reformed with likely a very good plot to the episode having to learn the hard way.

[Discordian 6,015]

But then that's what the show is trying to make you think since her at least seeming evil would put more of a story line to the plot and it would be pretty blank if she seemed as a good guy in that episode it would ruin it a little even know if you think about it she is not so bad yeah maybe she was a little like that in This day aria but hey it's a song a awesome one in that even in This day aria she did not seem so evil just kinda up with the pride as we all get sometimes she could also be reformed with likely a very good plot to the episode having to learn the hard way.

The very idea that a villain could become a good guy because they weren't the most malicious, evil, all-destroying villain of all time is a little cliche and honestly can make for some very bad writing. They showed no hints of her ever having any kind of good in her. Trying to feed her kin because she is the mother of them all could be more instinctual than emotional, especially considering she and her brood looked more like insects than ponies.

 

Having a reason to do something doesn't automatically mean there's some kind of good in her. Everyone has a reason. Sombra wanted domination.

 

Of course the writers can do it however they want but if Chrysalis does come back I think it's more likely to turn into all-out war. There's already two reformed villains. It'd get really stupid if they reformed a third.

 

The series has already started to go downhill as far as villains and opponents go. Every time it turns into a "everyone is suddenly on the same side because it was all a misunderstanding" plot device. It gets old and for the show to keep any sort of credibility they're gonna need to be a little more creative in their outcomes of each episode and story arc.

[NomDeSpite 452]

Awesome thread idea.

 

I'm a supporter of reforming villians, when appropriate. The reason? Sometimes people change for the better. It's a fact of life. John Newton, author of the hymn "Amazing Grace", started his young adult life on a slave trade ship. He was such a nasty thug that even the other nasty thugs looked down on him. And then after surviving a storm at sea and three decades, he had become an abolitionist.

 

But the point that some people cannot be reformed must also be considered.

 

King Sombra and Lightning Dust are beyond reforming. King Sombra is basically a combination of Lenin and Stalin. Lightning Dust's behavior is sociopathic, a point I've already made (see the "Wonderbolts Academy" thread). I strongly dispute that she can be reformed.
 

After what Queen Chrysalis did at the wedding, I don't think she can be reformed either.

 

I vote for Silver Spoon being reformed. Diamond Tiara's influence is probably what causes her to be a mean girl. There could be an episode where a wedge is driven between the two and SS has a chance to realize how lacking Diamond Tiara is.

Trixie is another good possibility.

[XxConfusedUnicornxX 834]

I would love to see nightmare moon again. But like... Luna vs Nightmare Moon! That would be awesome

[Totally Ducklett 181]

Ducktopia abstains. Courteously.

 

I think that some villains are very good characters when they're reformed, like Discord. Some villains, I think, like Chrysalis, are too good at being bad, and are the best when they're evil. Discord can pull it off because he is still as confusing and chaotic as normal. Except he's sorta, in my opinion, pretending. If he is though, it's quality acting.