Is magical talking hooved animal world as great as we think?

[cuteycindyhoney 13,284]

Your logically fallacy is laughable. 

 

You are guilty of the burden of proof. Positive claims require positive evidence. You are making a positive claim and have provided no positive evidence for the claim. Therefor, the claim is false until proven otherwise and will be dismissed without evidence. 

You are guilty of a MAJOR logic flaw. There is absolutely nothing to prove. If the writers don't write it, it DOES NOT EXIST.

[Hive King 1,998]

You are guilty of a MAJOR logic flaw. There is absolutely nothing to prove. If the writers don't write it, it DOES NOT EXIST.

That's not true. I can say that in the Transformers verse, every human is immortal, since they don't die of old age. I can say that in MLP, Equestria is just an island in the middle of a giant ocean because there hasn't been anything but Equestria shown.

[cuteycindyhoney 13,284]

That's not true. I can say that in the Transformers verse, every human is immortal, since they don't die of old age. I can say that in MLP, Equestria is just an island in the middle of a giant ocean because there hasn't been anything but Equestria shown.

Okay, how about this...IT'S A CARTOON. It is driven by ratings. There will NEVER be any rape or whatnot in it.

[Hive King 1,998]

Okay, how about this...IT'S A CARTOON. It is driven by ratings. There will NEVER be any rape or whatnot in it.

By the nature of this thread, one applies realism in some way or form. Otherwise you run into the ridiculous argument that

"Equestria is a cartoon, so if you lived there, the good guys would always win!"

[cuteycindyhoney 13,284]

By the nature of this thread, one applies realism in some way or form. Otherwise you run into the ridiculous argument that

"Equestria is a cartoon, so if you lived there, the good guys would always win!"

Now you just sound foolish. Nothing will be in the show unless the writers add it. It is not a window into another dimension.

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

I would point out that in the universe in which Equestria exists, it's made fairly clear that "destiny" is a very real thing. (at least in my mind) The reason we don't see adults without cutie marks is because there aren't any. All ponies are destined to find that which makes them special, the one thing that they're naturally gifted at, and what their purpose is.

 

If you disagree, I would suggest that you consider this. Regardless of what we think, regardless of what is said, the primary audience (please note, the primary one, not the only one) of this show is children. And yes, children will learn that not everyone finds that in the real world. They'll also find out that Santa isn't real. That "sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a load of garbage. That the world isn't as safe as they once were led to believe. But we tell them all those things anyway. Why? If it's a lie, why mislead them? Shouldn't we tell them the truth? We tell them those things, because unless someone believes, they won't happen. 

 

We need them to believe that they'll find the one thing that makes them special. Because that thing DOES exist, they just have to find it. Just like the fillies in the show.

 

 

Was that deeper than you were looking for? Probably. Was it on the topic as a whole? Not at all! I focused on one of the smaller points being made.

 

 

ANYDANGWAY, I'd love to live in Equestria. Yep.

[VulpineTaco 525]

Equestria is certainly far more cuddly.

[Soldier Surplus 232]

Trust me, I gave up on humanity ( too many stupid idiots). I would choose Equestria over earth any day of the year. But as log as I have contact with MLP forums then that's all i'll need

[Wind Chaser 4,767]

You know what else is amazing about Equestria? They have the meme you want, right on the time you want it!

 

[Venomous 18,816]

Some people may like the lifestyle because it is so simple. 

[Roughshod 719]

If you think there's more to it, explain. Otherwise, you're going against character values by suggesting that Celestia would be one to refuse the right to give someone something they justly earned,especially over something like gender. The qualities necessary to make an alicorn are rare enough that thousands of years is practical; the conditions are so tough that not even Star Swirl and the rest of the Mane Six were able to get in. There's currently no other candidates, male or female, that fit the bill.

When I said that I think there is more to this than happenstance I was implying that the world of MLP:FIM, both in the context of its own universe as well as the reality of it being a fictional world, shows disregard towards the male gender through its portrayal of characters identified as belonging to that gender. Whether this is because of the producers intentions or in spite of them, it doesn't change the reality that there is a subtext of mockery and blanketing of male characters.

 

Perhaps it's because the show's primary demographic is young girls that this problem had gone largely unnoticed and unattended. Or it might be due to hypersensitive fans who become intensely defensive towards any criticism of the show as a result of the treatment they may have had from others who dislike MLP and the Brony fandom. Fans like yourself. Either way it's not excusable to me.

 

Attempting to espouse what a fictional character's values are is pretty absurd. All we can really judge is their actions. Any sentiment about their reasoning or righteousness attached to that is just apologetic conjecture. Obviously you are not Celestia nor is it likely have made any contribution in her creation or portrayal in the series. If you have proof that you have I'd like to see it. In fact I think everyone here would. Anyway, to say that she only gives others what they deserve is also just shallow justification, not really a logical argument. And this still doesn't resolve the issue I raised regarding the fact that only Celestia seems to possess this power and responsibility. Why is it that no one else has any say in the matter? Celestia's autocratic methods, whether taken in the context of the show or from beyond the fourth wall, are just that.

 

An undemocratic matriarchial society maybe be your idea of a better world but it's not mine.

 

There's no expense here; Hasbro made their characters human. In FIM, girls can go out and save the world and still have time to have sleepovers and go see movies. They have emotional weaknesses and fears,etc. Strong, but never unrealistically so.

 

Males in MLP are the exact same; strong, but never unrealistically so. Shining Armor is the head of the Royal Guard, but can still cry at his sister's wedding. Spike is emotional, but still has the fortitude to have saved Everyone's lives at least twice by now. Discord, Spirit of Chaos, still feels crushed at the thought of betraying his friends. There's no expense here; male characters, when they're portrayed, are done so just as fairly as the females are.

You did not really address my assertion that this show still pushes stereotypes, both through the use of shallow archetypes and the simplistic use of its male characters. You mostly just stated what most fans already know, which is that the main cast are not just one dimensional tropes but characters who have wide appeal due to their fairly complex personalities. Well, complex for the medium anyway they're presented in anyway.

 

You mentioned some of the male cast as examples to support your argument. I'd like to address some of these:

Shining Armor is hardly any more than a shallow pretense for plugging Hasbro's toy lines. Perhaps tge same could be said about all the characters but with him as well as Cadance it's much more obvious. Even if he is capable of showing different emotions that doesn't automatically make him more developed or deep. It just gives his two-dimensional state an extra hue.

 

Spike, who as you stated has helped save the lives of the main characters, has reaped almost nothing for his efforts. He is still largely disrespected and looked down upon by the mane six and is commonly used as a punching bag of comic relief. There's nothing inherently wrong with a character having a humorous aspect to them, but despite the many lessons Spike is supposed to have learned he is still made to appear as a generally foolish, obnoxious and insensitive young male who apparently never learns from his mistakes or the challenges he faces.

 

As for Discord, he's received much better treatment than the other male characters in the show which is no doubt a reason he's so well liked by the fandom. Although he may feel remorse for his actions it evidently has not changed his overall personality which I think is more realistic for a complex and intelligent being. But even with multiple appearances on the show he is still largely used as a visual gag and jester like trope without much more depth to him than that. Now because this is primarily a children's show I don't really expect a Shakespearean type of development, but I will say that Discord's transition in the season four finale came off as somewhat forced and unconvincing to myself and also others I know.

 

Quite a bit, actually:

Complete_Equestria_Games_brochette_S04E24.png

There'd be a problem if there weren't any males there, but there are. It's also worth noting the male delegate from Saddle Arabia apparently is still higher ranked than Twilight from the proceedings in Twilight's Kingdom, so rankings are based on something other than gender.

There's really no oppression to speak of. Males can be royalty, hold jobs, and in general, do everything that females do.

I think you meant the Duke and Duchess of Maretonia who aren't even Equestrian. And the fact that the Duke attended the very meetings he came for and Twilight didn't says more about her rank amongst the princesses than about his status in relation to hers. He even explained that the reason for her exclusion was to keep the number of ponies aware of the discussion to a minimum.

 

When there are no males with any prominent or effectual positions of leadership or genuine importance, when they are given hackneyed portrayals for the convenience of the writers that helps feed into their main audience's preconceived notions of males in our society, and when the so called mission statement of that show is to help girls achieve their full potential but does it in such a one sided manner I find it to have some serious flaws. You can't say gender isn't an issue when it's clearly a focus of the show because that idea contradicts itself.

 

Something is rotten in the state of Equestria.

 

 

 

 

There, I've said my piece.

 

I would point out that in the universe in which Equestria exists, it's made fairly clear that "destiny" is a very real thing. (at least in my mind) The reason we don't see adults without cutie marks is because there aren't any. All ponies are destined to find that which makes them special, the one thing that they're naturally gifted at, and what their purpose is.

 

If you disagree, I would suggest that you consider this. Regardless of what we think, regardless of what is said, the primary audience (please note, the primary one, not the only one) of this show is children. And yes, children will learn that not everyone finds that in the real world. They'll also find out that Santa isn't real. That "sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a load of garbage. That the world isn't as safe as they once were led to believe. But we tell them all those things anyway. Why? If it's a lie, why mislead them? Shouldn't we tell them the truth? We tell them those things, because unless someone believes, they won't happen. 

 

We need them to believe that they'll find the one thing that makes them special. Because that thing DOES exist, they just have to find it. Just like the fillies in the show.

 

 

Was that deeper than you were looking for? Probably. Was it on the topic as a whole? Not at all! I focused on one of the smaller points being made.

 

 

ANYDANGWAY, I'd love to live in Equestria. Yep.

So are you suggesting that cutie marks are a metaphor for children's hope of personal fulfillment? That's a charming concept despite its somewhat saccharine message.

 

I don't entirely like the concepts of cutie marks myself because I hold the view that human beings don't have destinies but rather choices determined by realities in the world. And since it's been shown that ponies are basically equivalent to humans in another dimension I think I can still make that complaint in this context.

 

It seems to me like CM's would limit to some extent a pony's freedom to change. What if a pony lost interest in their talent or wanted to acquire a new one? Would this be possible? If they did could their CM possibly change? If not then how could a pony ever call themselves free?

 

A society where everyone is expected to find their place and never depart from it doesn't sound all that perfect. The citizens of Equestria all seem to value harmony but... I don't know, it seems like they're afraid of change and just prefer a boring life of mundane repetition.

 

But that's not really substantially different from this world I suppose.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Roughshod

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

So are you suggesting that cutie marks are a metaphor for children's hope of personal fulfillment? That's a charming concept despite its somewhat saccharine message.

 

I don't entirely like the concepts of cutie marks myself because I hold the view that human beings don't have destinies but rather choices determined by realities in the world. And since it's been shown that ponies are basically equivalent to humans in another dimension I think I can still make that complaint in this context.

 

It seems to me like CM's would limit to some extent a pony's freedom to change. What if a pony lost interest in their talent or wanted to acquire a new one? Would this be possible? If they did could their CM possibly change? If not then how could a pony ever call themselves free?

 

A society where everyone is expected to find their place and never depart from it doesn't sound all that perfect. The citizens of Equestria all seem to value harmony but... I don't know, it seems like they're afraid of change and just prefer a boring life of mundane repetition.

 

But that's not really substantially different from this world I suppose.

Kid's show. Kid's shows tend to have overly idealistic, sweet, "saccharine" (nice use of a vocab word, there) messages in them. It's kinda how they roll.

 

I would say that ponies and humans are very similar, but that doesn't change the way Equestria works. If you found something that you were naturally amazing at, and you had an inborn love of doing it.....why on earth would you stop? 

 

Again, I suggest that this is an idealized view that's being put out there. A society where everyone finds their place, and everyone is happy with where they are. I'm not saying it's realistic, I'm saying it's what Equestria is shown to be.

[WindyParadise 59]

@Roughshod

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the male gender is mocked in Equestria or in the show. We, as humans, primarily judge by what we see and have learned. So we see a bird and accept it as a bird because that is what we know. It's like asking somebody to describe what salt tastes like to someone who has never tasted it.

 

I'd rather have a working society with a benevolent government to a corrupt and broken one. Such things are not really possibly in our world, so it is what we seek to aspire too. In Equestria, females happen to dominate the culture. So what? On Earth the male gender has more or less dominated our history. 

A species or society directly or indirectly ruled by a specific gender for most of it's history shouldn't be so hard to imagine seeing as how our own world has had such history.

 

The Mane 6 started out as stereotypical girls before they became the developed and believable ones we love today.

 But we already know that, let's look at some other male characters you have not mentioned and ignore the fact that the MLP show is still a show.

 

 Big Mac: A hard-worker who is honest, concerned for his family and shy. He is a good singer who is willing to let others show their talents.

 Fancy Pants: A gentleman who is open-minded and respectful of others. He happens to accept a new comer to the city despite the possible back-fire.

 Mr. Cake: A talented baker who cares for his family and is content to live a small life. 

 Filthy Rich: An entrepreneur who is respectful to others and wishes to grow his business. 

 Pony Joe: A pastry chef who has common sense and good doughnuts.

 Sherrif Silverstar: A stereotypical western sheriff from an obviously stereotypical western themed episode. 

 Chief Thunderhooves: ^Same as above but as a native chief.

 Gustave: A chef who is also able to admit his faults. Somewhat stereotypical French Chef for humor.

 Thunderlane: A talented slacker. He happens to be sick on an important day and is unable to help.

 

Compared to some female characters, I would say that the show does a good job of avoiding stereotypes when it can.

 **

So you mention Shining Armor, Captain of the Royal Guard of Canterlot and brother to the Princess of Friendship before saying there are no males in a political or prominent position?   I'm not sure how that works but alright.

 

Even if we ignore Shining Armor we still have Fancy Pants who is obviously prominent in Canterlot and has political pull. We also have Filthy Rich who runs a major part of Ponyvilles economy and likely has political pull with the Mayor. We also have the history of Star-Swirl who was a well known and powerful figure in the past.

 

You seem to ignore the parts of society that are not at the front of the bus and it isn't helping your case. One can call him or herself a leader of a nation but unless they actually have people helping them lead and directing their decisions, they don't get anywhere with their citizens.

 

You also mention cutie marks, believing that they force a pony into living a single 'life' without change or new direction. This belief baffles me.

 Let's look at an obvious answer to this belief. Rarity.   

 

Rarity has three diamonds as her cutie mark so one would assume that she would be a gem miner if we did not know her according to the Cutie Mark Destiny belief correct? Despite this she is a fashion designer. "Who specializes in gem-decorated clothing" one might say. But I've seen plenty of clothing she designed that did not have any visible diamonds or gems on them.

 

 Besides, a diamond Cutie Mark could easily represent any number of things. It could represent a gem miner, a fashion designer, a jeweler, a marriage planner, a charity leader, a healer, a forger, or even a magician. 

Just because something represents one thing in our head does not mean it would mean the same to another in Europe or India. How the belief that your destiny is determined by your Cutie Mark started and still endures is a mystery to me.

 

So perhaps you could try looking at the show in a more optimistic light instead of cherry-picking the bad parts that are in every society, fictional or not.

[sweetolebob18 724]

Every story requires "the willing suspension of disbelief" but that shouldn't take a miracle. Over all, Equestria is better than Earth, but it is a LONG way from perfect

 

Ponyville has little crime.  I grew up in a real small town 50+ years ago & that is just the way it was.  You leave your keys in the car so you won't loose them.  Why would you take them out, you think someone could steal it even if they wanted to? Everyone in town knows what your car looks like. Lock the doors because you are going out!? Dude, you do that how are the neighbors supposed to close your windows if it rains? You must be crazier than Pinkie, talking like that.  We lived in one place for 5 years & when we left we had to get a locksmith in to change the locks.  The new owners wouldn't buy it without keys & we hadn't locked the door the whole time we were there & couldn't find them.  I was in boy scouts.  We had 1 car, so my dad would drop me off on his way to call Bingo at the VFW.  After the meeting, in the middle of the night, I would walk about mile, mile & 1/2 over to the VFW hall.  I got to call Bingo & got paid a bottle of soda! (big night).  You live somewhere you'd let a 11-12 year old kid walk the streets that far alone at night.  Not here in Phoenix, you wouldn't.  Situation is likely worse in big cities even in Equestria

 

No racism?  Check out how they treat Zecora in Bridle Gossip, the Buffaloes in Appleloosa (was that Over a Barrel?) or the mule, Pinky called him Cranky Doodle Dandy, can't think what episode that was.  Earth ponies, no de jure discrimination, but IMO some de facto discrimination.  Most of them do the manual labor & most manual labor is done by them.  They are stronger & they like it.  Yes, really, they wouldn't be happy doing anything else (You couldn't force AJ off her farm without a BIG fight.) They are all like that, Earth Ponies.  We just know it.  That's not discrimination, that's just letting them do what they want)  Of course, the story in Hearths Warm Eve shows some fairly harsh pony abuse, but that's long ago.  We don't treat Earth Ponies like that anymore.  Really.  Just ask any Unicorn or Pegasus -some of their best friends are Earth Ponies

 

As to male discrimination.  There are at least a dozen females for every male, I think.  It only makes sense most leaders are female.  Sheer numbers, most EVERYTHING is female.  I don't see discrimination in that, just the odds.  Same with Alicorns.  There have been only 2 new Alicorns in over 1000 years, the odds are good they'd both be female.  Seriously, you saying Twilight didn't earn it?

 

As to Cutie Marks, most adults do have them.  But, I suppose their might be some adults who don't.  I would like to see an episode dealing w that.  Would it be like being handicapped? Or would it be treated as no big deal.  You know, if your Cutie Mark was the same color as the rest of you, it could be pretty hard to see.  That is, it was there but nobody knew

 

Somebody mentioned one of the G1 ponies mistreating babies.  It's been 20-25 years since I watched that show, but IIRC, the New Born Twins weren't really abused.  It was just sibling rivalry & a fantasy of what they wished would happen to the babies.  Songs were "Babysitting" and "Oh, Those New Born Twins" 

 

Would I live in Equestria?  Doesn't look like they have TV. Dude, that is a SERIOUSLY harsh life!  Even if they had TV, I don't know if I'd live in Ponyville.  Every week another one of the Mane 6 is perpetrating some outrage calculated to stagger all of Equestria & these days I'm all about a quiet life.  In the words of an old Dylan song "Any one with any sense had long since left town" Nothing less than Absolute Zero?  Yes. there is.  Property values in Ponyville.  I didn't know numbers that small really existed.

[Vixor 80]

There are at least a dozen females for every male, I think.

 

I think that's very much debatable. The background pony crowds, which are the only data we have for statistics like that, are filled with clones, and seem rather inconsistent and unreliable. I don't think they can be relied on very much for any sort of census. The gender ratio could very easily be even, and we just wouldn't see it.

 

The show's cast of characters has more females, certainly, but Equestria's population? Ehhhh, I don't know about that. I really doubt it for various reasons, but eh, who knows? No way to be sure, I suppose. Again though, I don't think we have enough solid data to be formulating a census that we can even begin to rely on.

 

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, if it matters. You can find situations like this everywhere if you pay attention.

 

Edited November 14, 2014 by Vixor

[WindyParadise 59]

We also have to remember that Ponyville is still a small town with a large farming community. So it's understandable that most of the males would be working the fields while the females... work on the culture of the town? 

[Roughshod 719]

I'm not saying Celestia is evil or has the power to be, but it does seem a tad oppressive when you analyze it by human standards.

I consider her to be more incompetent than oppressive.

 

[AlbaTross 1,581]

Considering that alicorns are ultra powerful and becoming one is literally the only prerequisite for becoming royalty, I wouldn't be surprised if fear plays a part in that, but otherwise Equestria is free of neoliberalism and the capitalist system it feeds into. The more I learn about capitalism, the more apparent it becomes that we're all slaves to it, but it's the reality we have long since accepted. It would be kind of nice to be able to leave that behind and turn into a colourful horse with unique abilities depending on what species I end up as(come on, unicorn). I do find it fascinating that fans have found FiM to be a commentary on the social order we live in as I doubt that was ever the intention of the show's staff, but if it works to get people to see exactly what I've been learning about then so be it.

[sweetolebob18 724]

Like I said, You want me to live in a world without TV?  That is HARSH!

[Buck Testa 5,503]

I think we all can agree its better there than on earth, and that is really the point that matters.

[Roughshod 719]

I think we all can agree its better there than on earth, and that is really the point that matters.

No we don't all agree on this matter. I certainly don't. There are things we know about Equestria that some may find preferable to realities about our world but that doesn't make them categorically better. Perfection is only a concept because it is completely subjective and neither attainable or tenable.

 

Human beings aren't engineered to be perfectly satisfied, it's what's drives us to progress and improve our condition. That's one of the reasons I find ideas like heaven and utopian societies absurd. In fact the idealistic aspects of MLP in part prove this. We think it's better because a part of ourselves wants something better.

 

If there is a perfection, then I would say it must be the striving for perfection.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Roughshod

[Buck Testa 5,503]

 

 

If there is a perfection, then I would say it must be the striving for perfection.

 

Could you say the same about our world? The very fact that it is trying and for a large part succeeding in such a lofty goal puts it miles above our bickering hunk of rock. 

[Roughshod 719]

Could you say the same about our world? The very fact that it is trying and for a large part succeeding in such a lofty goal puts it miles above our bickering hunk of rock.

 

Could I say the same? It's possible that I could depending on my point of view and what I esteem of value. I do in fact believe that most people in our world strive or at least desire better of the world and themselves. I did in fact already state something along those lines and how it relates to human nature and our psychological evolution.

 

How much it's "succeeding" has not and really can not be evaluated by any objective standard besides the limited context that is available. Obviously this is due in no small part to the fact that it isn't real, and even barring this truism, there is not a comparable level of evidence regarding the concrete facts of the world of Equestria. Facts like population, pollution, income distribution, health rates, life expectancy, records of crime, war, genocide and crimes against humanity(or equinity?) are not all accounted for and I wouldn't expect them to be.

These things don't exist and likely never will given the format and intent of MLP. So instead we assume they don't exist because for all intents and purposes they don't. But that's not a rational basis of argument to argue for something from ignorance.

 

If nothing else our world is far more complex than what has been shown of MLP:FIM. I'm not going to argue the vastly greater complexities our world possesses over a children's show because that's nonsense. Anyone with any intellectual honesty should be able to admit this.

 

Calling our reality a bickering hunk of rock is somewhat self defeating though, after all, it produced the world of MLP:FIM didn't it? The world you evidently admire. This does not redeem it's faults, our world has many, many problems. But but how can you hold such contempt for it simply because it is not what it could never be? And by this I mean a magical world of colourful talking equines and other mythical creatures filled with childish idealism.

 

I'll also note your basis of comparison is irrational because you're trying to reverse the relationship of the two. We (humanity) created MLP, thus we created it's nature from ourselves. You could state that it has influence on those who watch it or engage it various forms of media but that does not change the fact that it is a human construction and is limited by the human minds that are engaged with it. Either you accept that or you must actually conceive of MLP as it's own self determining reality. In which case any further discussion will likely prove poinless.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Roughshod

[Pony Munchies 47]

 

 

Oh yay.. A great place to live... Until the chickens turn you to stone

Let's invite the windagos, too. And you thought winter was already hell.

[Roughshod 719]

No, the world of Equestria is not as great as many of us may think, or are lead to believe, or deceive ourselves into believing because of our esteem for the brand and our unwillingness to point out and examine it's flaws.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the male gender is mocked in Equestria or in the show.

 

 

Well if you read my posts which you apparently must have, then you would see the reasons I've outlined. Maybe you should go back and read them again, in their entirety this time.

 

I've also made similar arguments on this forum: http://mlpforums.com/topic/114295-should-this-show-have-a-more-prominent-male-in-the-line-up/page-2

 

 

We, as humans, primarily judge by what we see and have learned. So we see a bird and accept it as a bird because that is what we know. It's like asking somebody to describe what salt tastes like to someone who has never tasted it.

 

 

Okay? I am  judging this show by what I have seen and learned of it. In fact by your definition there's no other way I could. Aside from that what's your point? Are you attempting to give me a lesson in Empiricism? Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to decline.

 

 

I'd rather have a working society with a benevolent government to a corrupt and broken one. Such things are not really possibly in our world, so it is what we seek to aspire too.

 

 

I can underatand why you would feel that way. But I would rather have an existing government than an imaginary one. To say that such things are not possible in our world is a very big assumption, you don't know the limits of reality and neither does anyone else for that matter. And who is this "we" you're referring to by he way? Because Equestria is not model of government that I aspire to despite it's attributes that some may find appealing.

 

 

In Equestria, females happen to dominate the culture. So what? On Earth the male gender has more or less dominated our history. A species or society directly or indirectly ruled by a specific gender for most of it's history shouldn't be so hard to imagine seeing as how our own world has had such history.

 

 

I was not making a comparison between our world and Equestria in that manner and in fact had avoided doing so for this reason. You say on one hand that females dominate the culture but that males also have prominent roles and see no irony in that belief. Yes the male gender has dominated mos t of human history but that's not what I'm advocating and you're misrepresenting my stance if you're trying to present it as such.

 

Not once did I ever advocate that males should have more importance than or take the place of female characters simply because they're male. That's not a rational basis for an argument, it's just sexist and stupid. I don't have to imagine that Equestria is a female oriented society because as you stated above that is the reality. I take issue with it because I don't see it as the best possible situation in any context, regardless of the fact that MLP is a younger girl oriented brand.

 

 

So you mention Shining Armor, Captain of the Royal Guard of Canterlot and brother to the Princess of Friendship before saying there are no males in a political or prominent position? I'm not sure how that works but alright.

 

 

Shining Armor's position as Captain of the Royal Guard was likely little more than a pretense for him to appear as an approptiate suitor to Cadance. By describing his familial realtions you've also admitted that his regal prominence only stems from the fact that he is related to members of royalty. He may be a 'prince consort' now but it does not appear that he has any substantial authority. He doesn't even have his own throne.

 

 

Even if we ignore Shining Armor we still have Fancy Pants who is obviously prominent in Canterlot and has political pull. We also have Filthy Rich who runs a major part of Ponyvilles economy and likely has political pull with the Mayor. We also have the history of Star-Swirl who was a well known and powerful figure in the past.

 

 

So you're going to list some minor characters who have had maybe a handful of appearances as support for your argument? That's your refutation? These characters may have positions of high standing but that does not change the fact that Eqeustria's political leadership(that is apparently based on elite based absolutism) is fundamentally female based.

 

 

You seem to ignore the parts of society that are not at the front of the bus and it isn't helping your case. One can call him or herself a leader of a nation but unless they actually have people helping them lead and directing their decisions, they don't get anywhere with their citizens.

 

 

Not helping my case? It's the entire premise of my argument or at least a large part of it. As for the rest, you have no basis for that claim. Unless you can provide some type of evidence that prooves the amount of influence said citizens have that isn't just a vague description of what their job funtions are(baker, apple farmer) then it's not valid to me.

 

 

 

You also mention cutie marks, believing that they force a pony into living a single 'life' without change or new direction. This belief baffles me. Let's look at an obvious answer to this belief. Rarity. Rarity has three diamonds as her cutie mark so one would assume that she would be a gem miner if we did not know her according to the Cutie Mark Destiny belief correct? Despite this she is a fashion designer. "Who specializes in gem-decorated clothing" one might say. But I've seen plenty of clothing she designed that did not have any visible diamonds or gems on them. Besides, a diamond Cutie Mark could easily represent any number of things. It could represent a gem miner, a fashion designer, a jeweler, a marriage planner, a charity leader, a healer, a forger, or even a magician.

 

 

Well unlike most minor characters the cutie marks of the Mane 6 are a bit more abstract and metaphorical. There are some exceptions but for the most part minor characters tend to have cutie marks that are simple and indicate their interests or hobbies e.g. Bon Bon and Doctor Horse.

 

 

How the belief that your destiny is determined by your Cutie Mark started and still endures is a mystery to me.

 

 

You can thank Magical Mystery Cure for that.

 

 

So perhaps you could try looking at the show in a more optimistic light instead of cherry-picking the bad parts that are in every society, fictional or not.

 

 

It may surpise you to learn this but I actually do like the franchise that is My Little Pony: Frienship is Magic. As much as i value what I find good about it so do I criticize that which I find lacking. Cherry-picking? The aspects of MLP that I tend to criticize are those which I find to be fundamentally objectionable, things I disagree with on principle, not just lillte trifles or minor details that have no overall impact or message. I still very much appreciate most of what MLP has to offer, but I also belive it has room for growth. Perhaps you could try being a bit more critical of this subject, or not, that's your choice.

 

I've made mine.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Roughshod