The Religious Tolerance Thread

[Steel Accord 6,658]

@Steel Accord: I know. I may have doubts, and I know that that is an okay thing. I believe in what I'm saying most of the tme, but when I have a disagrreement in mind I just think: "If it's the will of God" instead. Since everyone and everything was made by God, it all must be good, since he is. If he planned it all beforehand, then everything that happens, was supposed to. That's meh view on things at least... If I made sense at all with what I just said. X)

Well remember, God also gave man free will. He gave us choice. The Divine may be benevolent, but not all people are necessarily. (Even if I assume most are until they prove me wrong.)

 

I believe things will turn out all right in the end, but God helps those who help themselves, not those who sit on their knees and pray for things to be better while not actually doing anything to MAKE them better.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Suukorak 354]

I think this thread is a great idea. Its biggest danger would be if people run out of stuff to discuss, but we can circumvent that with a little creativity. Also, good to see you here @Steel Accord, keeping the peace as usual, I see.

 

So I'm not quite sure what I would say about my beliefs. I suppose I'm sort of... neutral. Maybe an unsatisfying answer, but I certainly don't fit into the stereotypes of religious or atheistic people. I'll put a longer story of my interactions with religion for anyone who cares at all.

 

 

So I was raised atheist. In elementary school I made a friend who was christian (though I don't remember what sect), and I kind of went on a crusade to relieve him of his primitive, backwards views. Needless to say, I didn't even make a dent.

In middle school, I met someone else who had decided to become atheist after being raised christian. He went on a similar crusade against his parents, but I began to see that neither side was getting anywhere, and they were just angering each other by pushing their views.

In high school, I met a few more christians, a jew, and more atheists too. But they were all nice people who didn't press and I didn't press either. Eventually, I decided there was no real reason to assume atheism was better than religion. I was still an atheist, but I no longer held myself above my religious friends.

So I went on for some time like this. Still decidedly atheist but not at all opposed to religion if it was used correctly. Finally, a week or two ago, I was talking with Steel Accord about religion, and he showed me something new. The MLP episode "Feeling Pinkie Keen" had always really bugged me because I saw it as trying to indoctrinate its audience. He showed me how he had approached it, a view which started with a little faith, and I tried to see it his way. When I succeeded, it got me thinking.

Religion was a different perspective (clearly), but using a perspective based on faith had improved the small thing which I had used it on. Of course, that doesn't mean that faith is better in all things - but it's no longer something I'm willing to dismiss out of hand, for others or myself.

Okay, that's that. I don't know if anyone read it, but there it is.

If you're reading this, thanks, Steel Accord. You've let me see from a new perspective as well as my old one, and it's like I've got depth perception now.

 

 

 

In summary, I used to be atheist, now I don't really have an opinion. I'm not going to church or anything, but I see religion as a view as valid as atheism. There are bad people, as always, on both sides, but many good people as well.

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

As a few of you probably know, I'm a Christian. I don't take my faith lightly. I believe, as the Larger Catechism of the Westminster Confession of Faith puts it, that “Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God and fully to enjoy Him forever”—i.e. everything I do should be for His glory. My faith isn't about going to Heaven or escaping hell. It's about glorifying my Creator. Not that He would receive even one iota less glory if every human being stopped glorifying Him. His very nature is to be eternally glorious. He doesn't need any of us; we exist simply because He decided we would.

 

Clear up some misunderstanding? Hmm....

 

Well, for one thing, I'm a predestination-believing Calvinist, and yet I still believe we have free will. God is in constant control of every molecule, every sub-atomic particle in the universe, and it all follows His design precisely. It must be so, as the universe can no more sustain its own existence that it could have begun its own existence; if God ceased to control everything in nature, it would unravel. Yet He still gives us free will. But He created our will, too, and He knows exactly how we will react to any stimuli, any set of circumstances at any time. And He takes all that into account in how He sustains the universe, such that we make genuine, free will decisions precisely according to His design. A lot of us nutty Calvinists like to call it providence; God doesn't force us to act against our free will, but He did design our will according to His plans.

 

Oh, I'm also a young-earth creationist. I believe God created all that is in six literal, 24-hour days, and that the universe is somewhere in the ballpark of six to eight thousand years old.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

I think this thread is a great idea. Its biggest danger would be if people run out of stuff to discuss, but we can circumvent that with a little creativity. Also, good to see you here @Steel Accord, keeping the peace as usual, I see.

 

So I'm not quite sure what I would say about my beliefs. I suppose I'm sort of... neutral. Maybe an unsatisfying answer, but I certainly don't fit into the stereotypes of religious or atheistic people. I'll put a longer story of my interactions with religion for anyone who cares at all.

 

 

So I was raised atheist. In elementary school I made a friend who was christian (though I don't remember what sect), and I kind of went on a crusade to relieve him of his primitive, backwards views. Needless to say, I didn't even make a dent.

In middle school, I met someone else who had decided to become atheist after being raised christian. He went on a similar crusade against his parents, but I began to see that neither side was getting anywhere, and they were just angering each other by pushing their views.

In high school, I met a few more christians, a jew, and more atheists too. But they were all nice people who didn't press and I didn't press either. Eventually, I decided there was no real reason to assume atheism was better than religion. I was still an atheist, but I no longer held myself above my religious friends.

So I went on for some time like this. Still decidedly atheist but not at all opposed to religion if it was used correctly. Finally, a week or two ago, I was talking with Steel Accord about religion, and he showed me something new. The MLP episode "Feeling Pinkie Keen" had always really bugged me because I saw it as trying to indoctrinate its audience. He showed me how he had approached it, a view which started with a little faith, and I tried to see it his way. When I succeeded, it got me thinking.

Religion was a different perspective (clearly), but using a perspective based on faith had improved the small thing which I had used it on. Of course, that doesn't mean that faith is better in all things - but it's no longer something I'm willing to dismiss out of hand, for others or myself.

Okay, that's that. I don't know if anyone read it, but there it is.

If you're reading this, thanks, Steel Accord. You've let me see from a new perspective as well as my old one, and it's like I've got depth perception now.

 

 

 

In summary, I used to be atheist, now I don't really have an opinion. I'm not going to church or anything, but I see religion as a view as valid as atheism. There are bad people, as always, on both sides, but many good people as well.

 

I really don't know what to say. Here I was thinking that nothing I ever said would get anyone to reconsider the subject of faith.

[Suukorak 354]

I really don't know what to say. Here I was thinking that nothing I ever said would get anyone to reconsider the subject of faith.

 

You have more power than you know. Well done.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

Well, for one thing, I'm a predestination-believing Calvinist, and yet I still believe we have free will. God is in constant control of every molecule, every sub-atomic particle in the universe, and it all follows His design precisely. It must be so, as the universe can no more sustain its own existence that it could have begun its own existence; if God ceased to control everything in nature, it would unravel. Yet He still gives us free will. But He created our will, too, and He knows exactly how we will react to any stimuli, any set of circumstances at any time. And He takes all that into account in how He sustains the universe, such that we make genuine, free will decisions precisely according to His design. A lot of us nutty Calvinists like to call it providence; God doesn't force us to act against our free will, but He did design our will according to His plans.

 

Little more nuanced than the Calvinistic Providence I was introduced to so long ago. Could be possible from my point of view.

 

 

Oh, I'm also a young-earth creationist. I believe God created all that is in six literal, 24-hour days, and that the universe is somewhere in the ballpark of six to eight thousand years old.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

For anyone else that would challenge Benny on this, remember the OP's wish for debates to be taken to PMs. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

Little more nuanced than the Calvinistic Providence I was introduced to so long ago. Could be possible from my point of view.

 

 

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

For anyone else that would challenge Benny on this, remember the OP's wish for debates to be taken to PMs. 

Oh my grapes and apples, thank you for calling me Benny instead of Henny!!!!! I mean, it's obvious why most people shorten “Henny Penny Benny” to “Henny”—the usual thing to do in shortening people's usernames is to use the first couple syllables—so I can't complain.

 

But finally! Someone actually done it right!

 

Okay, rant over.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Henny Penny Benny

[Aurelleah 894]

Sooooo. I think people, mainly Christians, need to be a lot more tolerant of people who believe in evolution (catch-all term there) and atheism. Seriously. I don't blame the atheists for acting a bit hostile towards Christians, given some "christians" attitude towards them. Not that I'm grating on anybody in particular.

 

Agree?

 

One of the reasons christians are hostile toward evolutionists is because everywhere you see science they're always saying humans are animals and that we evolved. i personally think science and religion go well together, in fact there's nothing like drawing closer to God by observing and studying his creation... But nearly every science channel on youtube except for smarter every day (who's a christian I believe) constantly are like EVOLUTION!!!!. It's freaking annoying.

 

I for one was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so this fandom literally encompasses everything we're taught (Love, tolerance, friendship, honesty, etc) so I fit right in here I try to keep to myself when it comes to other people's religious beliefs though. I have a bit more of a passive approach, rather than saying "You need to be part of my religion or else" I have more of a "Hey if you want me to share what I've learned through personal study of ancient scripture, I'll totally share what I've come to understand to help you understand better or clear up misconceptions."

[Steel Accord 6,658]

One of the reasons christians are hostile toward evolutionists is because everywhere you see science they're always saying humans are animals and that we evolved. i personally think science and religion go well together, in fact there's nothing like drawing closer to God by observing and studying his creation... But nearly every science channel on youtube except for smarter every day (who's a christian I believe) constantly are like EVOLUTION!!!!. It's freaking annoying.

 

I for one was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so this fandom literally encompasses everything we're taught (Love, tolerance, friendship, honesty, etc) so I fit right in here I try to keep to myself when it comes to other people's religious beliefs though. I have a bit more of a passive approach, rather than saying "You need to be part of my religion or else" I have more of a "Hey if you want me to share what I've learned through personal study of ancient scripture, I'll totally share what I've come to understand to help you understand better or clear up misconceptions."

 

That, to me, is the way all religious attitudes when interacting with those not of faith should be. I was always taught that being a good Christian is just being a good person, no need to even bring up God. If you're kind, giving, and patient, your actions speak more volume of teaching than any holy verse.

Sooooo. I think people, mainly Christians, need to be a lot more tolerant of people who believe in evolution (catch-all term there) and atheism. Seriously. I don't blame the atheists for acting a bit hostile towards Christians, given some "christians" attitude towards them. Not that I'm grating on anybody in particular.

 

Agree?

 

Agree except I think you're preaching to the choir, so to speak. I'm not only "okay" with atheism, I respect it as a valid viewpoint. I might be wrong and there is no Divine, I still choose to believe in one but I can see why those who aren't me might take the position. Many friends and people I respect are atheists. (I can't tell you how many times I've quoted Nietzsche.)

 

Also, I believe in evolution. It makes the most scientific sense and I simply refuse to believe God just zapped everything in place. Which sounds more majestic and divine, that everything we are and see is a near infinite combination of elements ever changing over a period of billions of years . . . or Gary's Mod? (Plus the Catholic Church accepted the theory of evolution as within it's doctrine years ago.)

[CosmicHooves 2,705]

Sooooo. I think people, mainly Christians, need to be a lot more tolerant of people who believe in evolution (catch-all term there) and atheism. Seriously. I don't blame the atheists for acting a bit hostile towards Christians, given some "christians" attitude towards them. Not that I'm grating on anybody in particular.

 

Agree?

And the never ending cycle of intolerance and hatred continues.

Atheists are pointing fingers at Christians and Christians are pointing fingers at Atheists.

It doesn't matter how many from each group have been intolerant in the past.

By now, both parties are guilty of the same thing.

I could say "Atheists have been so intolerant to religious people in recent days" and compare it to what you just said and BOTH statements would be correct.

But is there really need to spread the intolerance?

I think not.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Commander Shepard

[Steel Accord 6,658]

And the never ending cycle of intolerance and hatred continues.

Atheists are pointing fingers at Christians and Christians are pointing fingers at Atheists.

It doesn't matter how many from each group have been intolerant in the past.

By now, both parties are guilty of the same thing.

I could say "Atheists have been so intolerant to religious people in recent days" and compare it to what you just said and BOTH statements would be correct.

But is there really need to spread the intolerance?

I think not.

 

Res ipsa loquitur.

 

I would say one should not prove there's intolerance by lampooning someone's call for a cessation of intolerance. Perhaps it's just me and I admit I could be wrong, but your post sounds just a tad frustrated and that's not the attitude appropriate to this thread.

[AccountNoLongerUsed 741]

In my honest opinion, and i wont elaborate unless im asked to, when talking about religion, I dont ask "Does this God exist" because theres no proof they do or don't, so far), instead I ask, should I worship them? Is this someone to look up to? Are they really fair and just? And I havent come across one from the main religions.

Im mostly an Agnostic but sometimes i revert to my own. non-biblical version of Christianity which is basically this: There is no Hell or Satan. The eating of the forbidden fruit was what God wanted, as He wanted the human race to have free will to choose, didnt want them blind. Eventually, Jesus was born and went to die on the cross, so all who believed would go to Heaven to be with God (note that you have to be sincere with your belief, God WILL know if you are not and you will simply have the same fate as the non believers, which i will talk about now). But those who dont, simply die permanently. Its a much more reasonable choice, and insures only those who WANT to be with God are in Heaven, instead of those only going to Heaven because they are afraid of Hell. I hope this make sense. its kind of like Annihilationism. Also instead of the 10 commandments i follow the Three Laws, which basically amounts to, if it does not affect one's life (murder), liberty (slavery, rape), or property (theft), do what you will. Sin still exists, but its less about right and wrong and more about simply being imperfect. We are imperfect beings, and we need the protection of Jesus's sacrifice to be near a Perfect Being like God. Im sorry if this makes no sense.

[CosmicHooves 2,705]

Res ipsa loquitur.

 

I would say one should not prove there's intolerance by lampooning someone's call for a cessation of intolerance. Perhaps it's just me and I admit I could be wrong, but your post sounds just a tad frustrated and that's not the attitude appropriate to this thread.

Absolutely not.

I'm trying to get my point across.

Let me simplify what I'm trying to say.

It should be common sense that if we keep trying to point out on who "the big meany" is when it comes to tensions between atheists and religious people, then nothing good can come from that but a never ending cycle of hatred.

Does that sound friustrated to you?

I think not.

I'm just trying to make a point here.

I didn't mean to make you think I was coming across with a certain attitude.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Commander Shepard

[Steel Accord 6,658]

Absolutely not.

I'm trying to get my point across.

Let me simplify what I'm trying to say.

It should be common sense that if we keep trying pointing out on who "the big meany" is when it comes to tensions between atheists and religious people, then nothing good can come from that but a never ending cycle of hatred.

Does that sound friustrated to you?

I think not.

I'm just trying to make a point here.

I didn't mean to make you think I was coming across with a certain attitude.

 

I did say that I could be wrong.

 

I agree, let's not say to others to not be intolerant, just be tolerant one's self. Lead by example.

 

In my honest opinion, and i wont elaborate unless im asked to, when talking about religion, I dont ask "Does this God exist" because theres no proof they do or don't, so far), instead I ask, should I worship them? Is this someone to look up to? Are they really fair and just? And I havent come across one from the main religions.

 

Im mostly an Agnostic but sometimes i revert to my own. non-biblical version of Christianity which is basically this: There is no Hell or Satan. The eating of the forbidden fruit was what God wanted, as He wanted the human race to have free will to choose, didnt want them blind. Eventually, Jesus was born and went to die on the cross, so all who believed would go to Heaven to be with God (note that you have to be sincere with your belief, God WILL know if you are not and you will simply have the same fate as the non believers, which i will talk about now). But those who dont, simply die permanently. Its a much more reasonable choice, and insures only those who WANT to be with God are in Heaven, instead of those only going to Heaven because they are afraid of Hell. I hope this make sense. its kind of like Annihilationism. Also instead of the 10 commandments i follow the Three Laws, which basically amounts to, if it does not affect one's life (murder), liberty (slavery, rape), or property (theft), do what you will. Sin still exists, but its less about right and wrong and more about simply being imperfect. We are imperfect beings, and we need the protection of Jesus's sacrifice to be near a Perfect Being like God. Im sorry if this makes no sense.

 

You are speaking my language Ms. Willow. That thinking is right in line with Gnosticism.

 

Besides even in my traditional Catholic upbringing, I was not taught Hell was a place, it's a state of being. A complete disconnect from the Divine.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Steel Accord

[AccountNoLongerUsed 741]

Another reason i like my personal Christian spirituality is it allows me to simply refuse immortality. I believe in God, I just dont want immortality. I want to live a normal life, and die. I believe immortality should be a choice. God gives us the choice: Accept Christ as your Savior, and you will receive eternal life in Heaven alongside God. Don't, and when your time comes you will simply die, or possibly be reincarnated. Its a lot more reasonable and justified, in my opinion.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

Another reason i like my personal Christian spirituality is it allows me to simply refuse immortality. I believe in God, I just dont want immortality. I want to live a normal life, and die. I believe immortality should be a choice. God gives us the choice: Accept Christ as your Savior, and you will receive eternal life in Heaven alongside God. Don't, and when your time comes you will simply die, or possibly be reincarnated. Its a lot more reasonable and justified, in my opinion.

 

Sounds a bit like the transhumanism idea that eventually we'll have a free or cheap method of longevity. Of course anyone who does not want it obviously doesn't need to take advantage of it.

 

I'm not saying it's equivalent, as it's physical immortality rather than the abstract you were referring to, the way you worded it just sounded familiar.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Steel Accord

[VictiniStar101 214]

Huh, this thread looks promising, hopefully it doesn't wind up being locked.

 

Anyway I have been raised as a Muslim, however I am beginning to do a lot of questioning when it comes to religion, however before making any decision on whether to convert or otherwise, I need to study my religion more.  At the moment, I consider myself a Muslim, but I do not want to become a devout Muslim.

 

As for misconceptions, not all Muslims are violent, not all of them are bad, we don't worship the Prophet Muhammad, not all of us support using violence to spread our beliefs, not all of us are radicals, and not all of us are terrorists.

 

Personally, I am tolerant (or at least I try to be) of other religions, provided that you don't shove it down my throat, although I don't think that religion is a cause that you should die for.

 

Also I hold the belief that there is no one religion that is superior to all others.

 

On a side note, I also wish India did not get partitioned

[Honsou 399]

I wholeheartedly agree with OP. Religion of late, has become the rallying point for our extremist/hate groups. When I was in Afghanistan, someone made a reference that we were modern day crusaders, to which I replied "We're not doing this for God, We're doing this for a paycheck and for each other." I've been to Afghanistan and Iraq (Iraq very, very briefly.) and for the most part, they are an Islamic people, and the vast majority of them want to live in peace. Islam is not a religion of hatred any more than Christianity is. Sure, the OT preaches that all must be purged, in the name of the Lord, but the OT is not relevant doctrine for contemporary Christianity. I mean the Judaic faith bases a lot of their teachings off of it, but how often do we hear of Jewish terror groups? Almost never. What it boils down to, is someone with an education decided that he doesn't like some body, so he preaches to the mass what his holy book says (Not going to insult the Quran, Bible or any other spiritual scripture) because he more than likely wrote it. And his message is that of what the grimdark 41st millenium preaches, My armor is contempt, My shield is disgust, my sword is hatred, in the (replace Emperor with relevant deity/supreme belief) let none survive. I'm also sick of racism in the world. Ferguson would never have flared up if people hadn't immediately stepped to the tired, worn out battleflag of Racial supremacy, purity, and ignorance. If people would have looked at it like, Michael Brown was a human being, and was slain by an officer of the law, another human being, it more than likely never would have been blown as bad out of proportion as it was. Hell, as I'm writing this I'm reading a story from my hometown in the Northwest US where my county sherriff shot a farmer. The story states that the farmer grew belligerent and drew a .22 cal weapon and attempted to intimidate the Sheriff and his deputies, but the sheriff wasn't playing those games.

[Shanks 10,811]

Im mostly an Agnostic but sometimes i revert to my own. non-biblical version of Christianity which is basically this: There is no Hell or Satan. The eating of the forbidden fruit was what God wanted, as He wanted the human race to have free will to choose, didnt want them blind.

What you are saying sounds like it has some elements of Gnosticism, Bahai which is a syncretic universalist monotheistic religion that emphasizes the oneness of God (ie God is God no matter what name you call him) and Deism which approaches God from a more philosophical rather than sectarian point of view. Deists subscribe to the Eternal Watchmaker Theory of God setting the events in motion which lead to creation but lets things happen as they may and don't believe in a formal organized religion.

 

On a side note, I also wish India did not get partitioned

Gandhi was strongly against it because he believed it would cause more conflict and violence and he unfortunately turned out to be right.

[Steel Accord 6,658]

@@VictiniStar101,

 

I know correcting misconceptions is part of the thread's purpose but I would like to make it a point that I didn't even think all Muslims were violent. I mean how could the religion have existed for this long if that was the case?

 

Also, you're speaking along my lines in saying you're not only tolerant of other faiths, but actually think none of them are wrong. I simply word it differently in that I think all faiths are right to one extent or another. Glass half empty vs. glass half full. 

[Aleh 481]

@@VictiniStar101,

 

I know correcting misconceptions is part of the thread's purpose but I would like to make it a point that I didn't even think all Muslims were violent. I mean how could the religion have existed for this long if that was the case?

 

Also, you're speaking along my lines in saying you're not only tolerant of other faiths, but actually think none of them are wrong. I simply word it differently in that I think all faiths are right to one extent or another. Glass half empty vs. glass half full. 

Whilst you don't think like that there are definitely people who hold that belief.

Unfortunately a lot more common than you would think :/ 

(Although hopefully we don't have any massively right wing loonies on the forums >.< )

[VictiniStar101 214]

(Although hopefully we don't have any massively right wing loonies on the forums >.< )

I hope so, I have enough of them in my family

[Steel Accord 6,658]

Whilst you don't think like that there are definitely people who hold that belief.

Unfortunately a lot more common than you would think :/ 

(Although hopefully we don't have any massively right wing loonies on the forums >.< )

 

I hope so, I have enough of them in my family

 

Odd because I've never encountered such in my personal life. I don't mean to sound like "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist." Just that after traveling all over this great nation and three continents worth of other great nations. I've never seen overtly anti-Islamic sentiment so my belief is even if it's wide spread, those who hold such might know that their view is at least considered unacceptable by the majority.

 

Loony I would hope not, right wing on the other hoof . . .  :okiedokielokie:

[VictiniStar101 214]

My previous post was referring to the fact that there many people who I would consider conservative in my family.

 

Just to clarify, I haven't experienced any anti-Muslim sentiment myself.

 

Those people in my family are Indian-Muslims, however some of them have views that are grossly outdated or otherwise a bit conservative, for example that you can't wear a t-shirt showing evolution during prayer.

Edited April 8, 2015 by VictiniStar101

[Aleh 481]

Odd because I've never encountered such in my personal life. I don't mean to sound like "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist." Just that after traveling all over this great nation and three continents worth of other great nations. I've never seen overtly anti-Islamic sentiment so my belief is even if it's wide spread, those who hold such might know that their view is at least considered unacceptable by the majority.

 

Loony I would hope not, right wing on the other hoof . . .  :okiedokielokie:

 definitely not a widespread socially accepted opinion, but there are definitely large numbers of people who utterly despise Islam, and associate Muslims with terrorists.

Been quite a few murders and assaults in relation to it, especially after terrorist attacks. Also become a political thing (At least in Europe), with groups like PEGIDA (Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West) or the BNP becoming more popular.

Thankfully these aren't mainstream ideals, but they're definitely held by a significant minority.

(Also maybe right wing wasn't the best term to use, but the majority of the bigots I've seen have been extreme right wingers, so I felt it was the best way of putting it >.<)