Were it not for Sunset Shimmer, FIM wouldn't exist

[ManaMinori 4,144]

(Y'all know it's true) I really like how one of the greatest ponies, ome we didn't even get introduced to until long after season 1, basically made FIM happen. As Sunbutt's original apprentice, it was Sunny who abandoned her studies and mentor, and turned her back on friendship, and when it wad Twilight's turn to study under Sunbutt, Sunbutt had Twi hatch Spike's egg as an entry exam, and to have her start developing the bonds of friendship early, with Twi having to take care of the bby dragon. Further assurance to foster frienship in Twi, after Sunbutt had learned where she went wrong with Sunny, was discovering Cadance, and having the alicorn of love form another bond with Twi. And when Twi was still bound to her books than making friends, Sunbutt learned from her past mistakes with Sunny, who she had failed to provide as much assistance for, and sent Twi to Ponyville to check on the Summer Sun Celebrations progress, and make friends in the process.

 

What do you guys think on the importance of Sunset Shimmer, and her actions in the past giving us the MLP:FIM that we know and love? Does anyone find it ironic or funny that Faust created MLPFIM, but it was after she left That Sunny came onto the scene, and that without her actions or bakstory, nothing that had happened since season 1, onward never would've happened?

 

Since it was Sunset who set the events of FIM in motion, in the first place, isn't that all the more reason why she should show up in the series, and stay there? (Rather than the human world of Equestria Girls)

Edited July 29, 2015 by Nightmare Muffin

[Perradial 114]

I'd say Sunset was a different kind of pony, and Twilight was simply never exposed, thinking of Spike on a different level than ponies. Sunset took her title as Celestia's prized student proudly, and she abused it, too. Twilight never abused her position.

Also, Sunset saw an evil, more powerful version of herself in the mirror and she wanted it, annoying Celestia about it.

So yeah, I'd say Sunset was just different.

 

Yes I'm assuming the IDW comics are true please don't kill me bye

[Banul 3,831]

I consider Sunset Shimmer to be the best thing about Equestria Girls. I like her a lot.

 

That said, MLP would have continued without her. It started just fine without her. She did not make FIM happen. Its weird that you say that season one couldn't have happened without Sunset when it literally did happen, as Sunset as a character didn't exist yet when they were making it. It's nice that they made her fit in to the backstory, but they didn't need her.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,347]

This is an interesting deduction. Another possibility could have been that Twilight would still be an apprentice to Celestia ALONG with Sunset if Sunset did not screw it up. This could have made for very different events afterwards though. Obviously Shimmer did not exist at all during season's 1, 2, or even 3 in FiM lore, but this is kinda neat for a backstory concept. :3

 

I do agree that Shimmer should be in the show as a standard character and just Equestria Girls, but I would also like to keep Equestria Girls and FiM completely separate from each other to be honest. 

[ManaMinori 4,144]

I consider Sunset Shimmer to be the best thing about Equestria Girls. I like her a lot.

 

That said, MLP would have continued without her. It started just fine without her. She did not make FIM happen. Its weird that you say that season one couldn't have happened without Sunset when it literally did happen, as Sunset as a character didn't exist yet when they were making it. It's nice that they made her fit in to the backstory, but they didn't need her.

but the thing is, how FIM started was due to Sunbutt righting where she went wrong with Sunset. Twilight even getting Spike's egg was a direct result of Sunset's own actions. So Spike's existance and friendship with Twi was thanks to Sunny. So was Twilight's meeting and relationship with Cadance and the mane 5. Sunset may have come later but every event we've seen since episode 1, every change that the charaters have gone through and learned from their friendship with each other, was all thanks to Sunset's actions in the past.

[The Nth Doctor 652]

Twilight should've taken Sunset Shimmer back to Equestria at the end of Equestria Girls and she becomes Celestia's student again

 

-

 

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TO GO BACK TO MAGIC KINDERGARTEN?!"

"Well...you did try to kill a Princess of Equestria and invade Equestria with mind-controlled students. Magic kindergarten is a lot more preferable than...say...execution, don't you think?"

"I'll...take magic kidnergarten..."

"Splendid! You begin tomorrow."

[ManaMinori 4,144]

Twilight should've taken Sunset Shimmer back to Equestria at the end of Equestria Girls and she becomes Celestia's student again

 

-

 

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TO GO BACK TO MAGIC KINDERGARTEN?!"

"Well...you did try to kill a Princess of Equestria and invade Equestria with mind-controlled students. Magic kindergarten is a lot more preferable than...say...execution, don't you think?"

"I'll...take magic kidnergarten..."

"Splendid! You begin tomorrow."

I agree, but I see far more potential with Sunbutt letting Luna mentor Sunset, since both have the potential to learn ang grow off each other, still, due to their similar past booboo's

[The Nth Doctor 652]

I agree, but I see far more potential with Sunbutt letting Luna mentor Sunset, since both have the potential to learn ang grow off each other, still, due to their similar past booboo's

Plus, then Sunbutt won't have to mentor Sunbutt

 

And Luna mentoring Moondancer would be Moonbutt mentoring Moonbutt

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

I'm going to assume that much of the information you presented came from the comic books? I was unaware that Celestia deliberately tried to correct the mistakes made with Sunset through her new apprentice, Twilight, though it makes plenty of sense.

 

There would still be a Friendship is Magic without Sunset Shimmer. She might have helped play an indirect role in the backstory of how the ponies came together, but even without Sunset, there would still be some other scenario in place instead. But I'm all for crediting Shimmer anyway, because she's a really great character who I think helped to give us a really neat backstory for our heroes, as well as reveal a fallible and not so perfect side to Princess Celestia. That, and Sunset's fall from grace and subsequent redemption arc are some of my favorite MLP stories thus far. She just makes everything better.

 

Thinking about all of this has me wishing and hoping for some kind of appearance from Sunset in the season 5 finale, since it has to do with the cutie mark origins story. It just makes sense to me for some reason, but I'm not holding my breath.

[SolyWack 482]

(Y'all know it's true) I really like how one of the greatest ponies, ome we didn't even get introduced to until long after season 1, basically made FIM happen. As Sunbutt's original apprentice, it was Sunny who abandoned her studies and mentor, and turned her back on friendship, and when it wad Twilight's turn to study under Sunbutt, Sunbutt had Twi hatch Spike's egg as an entry exam, and to have her start developing the bonds of friendship early, with Twi having to take care of the bby dragon. Further assurance to foster frienship in Twi, after Sunbutt had learned where she went wrong with Sunny, was discovering Cadance, and having the alicorn of love form another bond with Twi. And when Twi was still bound to her books than making friends, Sunbutt learned from her past mistakes with Sunny, who she had failed to provide as much assistance for, and sent Twi to Ponyville to check on the Summer Sun Celebrations progress, and make friends in the process.

 

What do you guys think on the importance of Sunset Shimmer, and her actions in the past giving us the MLP:FIM that we know and love? Does anyone find it ironic or funny that Faust created MLPFIM, but it was after she left That Sunny came onto the scene, and that without her actions or bakstory, nothing that had happened since season 1, onward never would've happened?

 

Since it was Sunset who set the events of FIM in motion, in the first place, isn't that all the more reason why she should show up in the series, and stay there? (Rather than the human world of Equestria Girls)

This topic sounds like its about how because of Sunset, the show continued, not that she caused the EVENTS of FIM. Am i the only one who think that?

 

But to the actual topic, yeah your completely right, if Celestia hadnt shown her the portal, Sunset may have changed, or perhaps took longer to get demoted, and by that time, Twilight may have failed the exam or something.

 

Its all very Rude Goldberg.

Edited July 30, 2015 by AppleJack_Wack

[colt .45 259]

The flaw in this theory goes back to the tree of harmony. It had Celestia and Luna's cutie marks on it before those marks were on their butts, AND another symbol. It's that other symbol that makes this theory not work. It wasn't Sunsets cutie mark. Sunset may have been a special student of Celestias, but when Twilight hatched Spike and got her cutie mark, Celestia recognized that Twilight was destined to be a bearer of the elements. Something Sunset wasn't predestined to do. If the events that unfolded that would lead to Sunset leaving Equestria had not happened, and Sunset was still Celestias student when Twilight got her cutie mark then what? Would Celestia abandon Sunset as her student? Would Sunset be jealous that Celestia was spending more time mentoring Twi? Basically what I'm getting at is I don't think Celestia mentored Twi differently than she did Sunset based on her failure with Sunny, but based on her knowledge of Twilights destiny. Not that this is meant to take anything away from how awesome Sunset Shimmer is. She still has the prestigious designation as being the first thing Twilight did as a princess, helping Twi not only embrace the title, but to know what it means to be the princess of friendship.

I think it was the tree of harmony that made FIM happen, more so than Sunset Shimmer. (that should have been the first sentence, instead of the last)

[ManaMinori 4,144]

The flaw in this theory goes back to the tree of harmony. It had Celestia and Luna's cutie marks on it before those marks were on their butts, AND another symbol. It's that other symbol that makes this theory not work. It wasn't Sunsets cutie mark. Sunset may have been a special student of Celestias, but when Twilight hatched Spike and got her cutie mark, Celestia recognized that Twilight was destined to be a bearer of the elements. Something Sunset wasn't predestined to do. If the events that unfolded that would lead to Sunset leaving Equestria had not happened, and Sunset was still Celestias student when Twilight got her cutie mark then what? Would Celestia abandon Sunset as her student? Would Sunset be jealous that Celestia was spending more time mentoring Twi? Basically what I'm getting at is I don't think Celestia mentored Twi differently than she did Sunset based on her failure with Sunny, but based on her knowledge of Twilights destiny. Not that this is meant to take anything away from how awesome Sunset Shimmer is. She still has the prestigious designation as being the first thing Twilight did as a princess, helping Twi not only embrace the title, but to know what it means to be the princess of friendship.

I think it was the tree of harmony that made FIM happen, more so than Sunset Shimmer. (that should have been the first sentence, instead of the last)

know who else's cutie mark wasn't on the tree? Cadance's.

So you're saying that nothing that Sunny did led Sunbutt to finding or taking Twilight in, or taknig those many measures (having to hatch Spike's egg and take care/ form a bond with him, having Cadance as her foalsitter, getting her to make friends in Ponyville) to get her to accept friendship, and Sunbutt would've done all that, regardless, due to her knwledge of Twilight's destiny?

 

But how could sunbutt know that, if Twi didn't have her cutie mark before being given the test to hatch Spike's egg? Which only was done, again, because Sunset first turned her back on friendship, and Sunbutt tried A different approach with the ponies after her.

[colt .45 259]

know who else's cutie mark wasn't on the tree? Cadance's.

So you're saying that nothing that Sunny did led Sunbutt to finding or taking Twilight in, or taknig those many measures (having to hatch Spike's egg and take care/ form a bond with him, having Cadance as her foalsitter, getting her to make friends in Ponyville) to get her to accept friendship, and Sunbutt would've done all that, regardless, due to her knwledge of Twilight's destiny?

But how could sunbutt know that, if Twi didn't have her cutie mark before being given the test to hatch Spike's egg? Which only was done, again, because Sunset first turned her back on friendship, and Sunbutt tried A different approach with the ponies after her.

 

Cadences cutie mark wasn't on the tree because she isn't linked to the elements. Her cutie mark is the relic that powers the Crystal Empire.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 

Celestia didn't know that Twilight would end up with the cutie mark that was on the tree before she gave the entrance exam, but once she saw it she definitely knew they she was the one. Again, I don't think Celestia mentored Sunset the same way she mentored Twilight. Sunny was her star pupil, and until she saw Twilight, was probably the most gifted in magic she had ever seen. However, I think that when Celestia saw that Twilights cutie mark was a symbol she recognized from an ancient relic she knew that Twi was the chosen one that Starswirl had told her about ( from the Journal, I know you've read it). That is why Celestia set upon a different course of education for Twi than what she did with Sunny.

I love Sunset Shimmer, I really do. (in fact I'm about to go buy me some Sunny merch right now) I just don't believe her to be the catalyst to FIM that you do.

[ManaMinori 4,144]

Cadences cutie mark wasn't on the tree because she isn't linked to the elements. Her cutie mark is the relic that powers the Crystal Empire.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Celestia didn't know that Twilight would end up with the cutie mark that was on the tree before she gave the entrance exam, but once she saw it she definitely knew they she was the one. Again, I don't think Celestia mentored Sunset the same way she mentored Twilight. Sunny was her star pupil, and until she saw Twilight, was probably the most gifted in magic she had ever seen. However, I think that when Celestia saw that Twilights cutie mark was a symbol she recognized from an ancient relic she knew that Twi was the chosen one that Starswirl had told her about ( from the Journal, I know you've read it). That is why Celestia set upon a different course of education for Twi than what she did with Sunny.

I love Sunset Shimmer, I really do. (in fact I'm about to go buy me some Sunny merch right now) I just don't believe her to be the catalyst to FIM that you do.

I'm sorry thst you don't believe her to be the catalyst. So then maybe you can help me further understand your line of reasoning. Since Sunset, according to the comics, already had her CM while she was still in the school for gifted unicorns, and Sunbutt obviously notced it when she made Sunny her student, then why would she? Sunny's mark wasn't on the tree, after all....so why was Sunny even her student? What would Sunbutt be even grooming her for, and trying to teach her friendship for, if not to use the elements?

 

 

and taking Sunny out of the picture for a minute, since you reason that nothing that she did had an impact on Sunbutt and her later decicions and methods with Twilight and her meeting Spike, or the other mane 6, why do you beleive that Sunbutt gave the hatching of Spike's egg to ponies, if it wasn't a test before a certain pony's actions? If Sunbutt was trying to get ponies to forge bonds of friendship by hatching and taking care of another life, then why didn't we see her isssuing the task to whatever former students she took in? If nothing happened prior, then what would you conclude the egg test being added to the exam was for, when it hadn't been, with former students? Can we assume that they also got personal foalsitters who were alicorns?

[Prince Firemane 309]

I think you're on point with most of your theory, but to outright say that FiM wouldn't have happened without Sunset Shimmer seems a bit of a stretch for me. She didn't influence Twilight's desire to enter Celestia's school, she didn't influence Twilight's tremendous magical output and subsequent cutie mark appearance. I believe if Sunset Shimmer hadn't turned her back on Celestia, Celestia still would've taken Twilight on as her protege. Twilight's cutie mark is not only a dead ringer for the Element of Magic, but it's also surrounded by five other stars that could very easily represent the five other Elements. Celestia would've known that.

 

Moreover, if she had taken on both of them as students, I think Sunset Shimmer still would've turned her back on them. I imagine she would see Twilight as getting more attention. Let's be honest, she would. Celestia would always keep the Tree of Harmony and its Elements in mind while mentoring Twilight, while Sunset Shimmer seemed to have no overt potential destiny like that. However, I believe that regardless of what events may or may not have occurred, it was always Sunset Shimmer's destiny to turn evil. Her cutie mark pretty much dictates it. Her entire cutie mark has a distinct yin/yang motif and I see that as her walking the fine line between good and evil, especially now that she's experienced both.

 

But I do agree that Sunset Shimmer's downfall was a direct influence on how Celestia mentored Twilight. She didn't focus enough on the merits of friendship with Sunset Shimmer and took steps to make sure Twilight avoided the same path. But the key difference is that while Twilight was an introvert and solely focused on her studies; Sunset Shimmer was blindly arrogant about her position as Celestia's student.

 

So, did Sunset Shimmer play a role in how Celestia mentored Twilight? Absolutely. Would the series have never happened without her? Probably not.

[colt .45 259]

I'm sorry thst you don't believe her to be the catalyst. So then maybe you can help me further understand your line of reasoning. Since Sunset, according to the comics, already had her CM while she was still in the school for gifted unicorns, and Sunbutt obviously notced it when she made Sunny her student, then why would she? Sunny's mark wasn't on the tree, after all....so why was Sunny even her student? What would Sunbutt be even grooming her for, and trying to teach her friendship for, if not to use the elements?

and taking Sunny out of the picture for a minute, since you reason that nothing that she did had an impact on Sunbutt and her later decicions and methods with Twilight and her meeting Spike, or the other mane 6, why do you beleive that Sunbutt gave the hatching of Spike's egg to ponies, if it wasn't a test before a certain pony's actions? If Sunbutt was trying to get ponies to forge bonds of friendship by hatching and taking care of another life, then why didn't we see her isssuing the task to whatever former students she took in? If nothing happened prior, then what would you conclude the egg test being added to the exam was for, when it hadn't been, with former students? Can we assume that they also got personal foalsitters who were alicorns?

I haven't read the comics ( but if you tell me the issue number I might since I do love Sunny and would like to know more of her back story, and the comics are only ninty-nine cents from google play. After all I bought the "Time to Shine" book based on your posts). With that I'll try to answer. First off, prior to entering Celestias school Twi didn't have a cutie mark. Once she was a student, just like Sunset, she had a CM. Not sure why you mentioned that. I don't know what Sunsets entrance exam entailed. It is my understanding that Celestia ran a school for gifted unicorns, thereby leading me to believe she had many students, one of which was named Sunset Shimmer. Celestia recognized a great deal of raw magic potential in Sunset and made her a prized pupil because she wouldn't wanrt to see that potential wasted (or perhaps corrupted). Since the chosen one, whose cutie mark had been foretold by the tree, had not been revealed to her yet, I suppose that Celestia took interest in personally mentoring Sunset simply because of Sunny's aptitude with magic. As to what her goal was in grooming Sunny, Remember Celestia knew Starswirl, so I imagine that she was hoping Sunset would, with her guidance and instruction, one day be as powerful of a unicorn as Starswirl. The situation with Twilight is completely different. While Celestia knew that Twilight was special because her cutie mark was on the tree, she didn't know exactly what Twilights destiny was or how exactly to make it happen. I base this on the following facts; 1) Celestia didn't teach Twi about the elements, Twi discovered their existence by doing her own research, and reading. 2) Celestia didn't even know that the magic of friendship would activate the elements. Luna and Her activated them with alicorn magic. 3) Celestia never even mentioned the tree to Twilight, or the fact that her cutie mark was on it. It would seem that Twi found out about it's existence in "Princess Twilight" 4) I don't think Celestia even knew about the magic of friendship before she observed Twilight demonstrate it. Here's why. When she told Twi to get her face out of books and make friends, I think she was just giving her some good advice. She knew the importance of friendship, and that book learning can't teach life experience. Celestia and Luna were students of Starswirl way back in the day. When Twilight was alicornated, after finishing the spell that Starswhirl couldn't, Celestia tells Twi that it was because Starswhirl didn't understand the magic of friendship. If Starswhirl didn't know about it then he couldn't have taught Celestia and Luna about it. To further emphasize this, Celestia also says that Twilight discovered a new kind of magic. In other words it didn't exist before Twilight. Celestia didn't teach Sunset or Twilight about the magic of friendship, because she didn't know about it because it literally did not exist. By the end of the second season Celestia was well aware of how powerful this new magic waswas, and set about testing it first with the Crystal Empire and finally with giving her Starswhirls un finished spell. After the alicornation of Twilight, Celestia tells Twi "We are all your students now". Sunset is important for two reasons. The first is that the very first thing Twi did as princess, was defeat evil Sunset then offer her friendship. The second being Twilight's first student. Not just any student, but one whose magical ability rivals Twilights. This is why her coming back to Equestria and being Luna's student makes so much sense. Once Sunset fully understands, and then masters the magic of friendship, it will be through the filter of having been Luna's student, just as Twi discovered it through having been Celestias student. Then, when the time comes, they will have the skills to rule Equestria together, as Luna and Celestia do.

As for how Cadance became Twi's foal sitter, I would assume that Twi's parents put fliers up around Canterlot, and Cadance tore the phone number off and called it. As the Crystal Empire hadn't re emerged yet so other than spreading love all over the place she didn't have much else to do. BTW, I happen to think that Cadance had a lot to do with getting Twi the chance to audition for Celestias school.

[SilverComet 169]

snip

 

 

/)6_9(\

 

Your post make me dizzy.

 

- - - - - - - 

 

Now (mostly) the same, but in a more legible format:

 

 

[What colt .45, on 30 Jul 2015 - 7:35 PM,  said; enhanced]:

 

I do love Sunny (and would like to know more of her back story). I haven't read the comics; but if you tell me the issue´s number I might, (since the comics are only ninty-nine cents from google play).

 

After all, I bought the "Time to Shine" book based on your posts. With that I'll try to answer:

First off, prior to entering Celestia´s school, Twi didn't have a cutie mark. Once she was a student, just like Sunset, she had a CM. (Not sure why you mentioned that).

 

I don't know what Sunset´s entrance exam entailed. It is my understanding that Celestia ran a school for gifted unicorns, thereby leading me to believe she had many students, one of which was named Sunset Shimmer.

 

Celestia recognized a great deal of raw magic potential in Sunset and made her a prized pupil because she would not to see that potential wasted (or perhaps corrupted).

Since the chosen one, (whose cutie mark had been foretold by the tree ) had not been revealed to her yet; I suppose that Celestia took interest in personally mentoring Sunset simply because of Sunny's aptitude with magic.

 

As to what her goal was in grooming Sunny, Remember Celestia knew Starswirl; so I imagine that she was hoping Sunset would, (with her guidance and instruction), one day be as powerful of a unicorn as Starswirl.

 

- - - 

 

The situation with Twilight is completely different. While Celestia knew that Twilight was special (because her cutie mark was on the tree), she didn't know exactly what Twilight´s destiny was or how exactly to make it happen.

 

I base this on the following facts:

1) Celestia didn't teach Twi about the elements, (Twi discovered their existence by doing her own research, and reading).

 

2) Celestia didn't even know that the magic of friendship would activate the elements. (Luna and Her activated them with alicorn magic).

 

3) Celestia never even mentioned the tree to Twilight, or the fact that her cutie mark was on it. (It would seem that Twi found out about it's existence in "Princess Twilight" ).

 

4) I don't think Celestia even knew about the magic of friendship before she observed Twilight demonstrate it. [Here's why]:

4)a) When she told Twi to get her face out of books and make friends, I think she was just giving her some good advice.

She knew the importance of friendship, and that book learning can't teach life experience.

Celestia and Luna were students of Starswirl way back in the day.

When Twilight was transformed into an alicorn, (after finishing the spell that Starswhirl could not), Celestia tells Twi that it was because Starswhirl didn't understand the magic of friendship.

 

If Starswhirl didn't know about it then he couldn't have taught Celestia and Luna about it. (To further emphasize this, Celestia also says that Twilight discovered a new kind of magic). In other words it didn't exist before Twilight.

Celestia didn't teach Sunset or Twilight about the magic of friendship, because she didn't know about it because it literally did not exist. 

 

By the end of the second season Celestia was well aware of how powerful this new magic was; setting first a test with the Crystal Empire, and finally giving her Starswhirl´s un finished spell.

After the alicornation of Twilight, Celestia tells Twi "We are all your students now". 

 

- - - 

 

Sunset is important for two reasons:

 

The first is that the very first thing Twi did as princess, was defeat an evil Sunset then offer her friendship [EG1: Through the Mirror].

The second this is Sunset being Twilight's first student [EG2: Rainbow Rocks].

But not just any student, but one whose magical ability rivals Twilights.

 

This is why her coming back to Equestria and being Luna's student makes so much sense.

Once Sunset fully understands, (and then masters) the magic of friendship, it will be through the filter of having been Luna's student, (just as Twi discovered it through having been Celestias student).

Then, when the time comes, they will have the skills to rule Equestria together, as Luna and Celestia do.

 

- - - - - - -

 

As for how Cadance becoming Twi's foal sitter, I would assume that Twi's parents "put fliers" up around Canterlot, (and Cadance took "the phone number" off and called it).

As the Crystal Empire hadn't re emerged (yet), so other than "spreading love" all over the place she didn't have much else to do. [bTW, I happen to think that Cadance had a lot to do with getting Twi the chance to audition for Celestias school].

 

Disclaimer:

Certain non-artistic licences were taken with the text structure (to make it more read-able); with a better "flowing" of the ideas trough placement and stacking (without changing their content).

Also added some references. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by SilverComet