Was EQG "Toned" Down?

[Guest]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3bk178

 

For those who haven't seen it, this was included on the bluray of the third film. It was the rough draft of the "What More is Out there" song, which originally was a duet. The reason why the duet itself was cut is unclear, the biggest theory was because the subplot with Sunset wanting to go back to Equestria was cut from the film due to making the film too long and complex.

 

However from the rough sketches we can kind of get an idea of initial designs of the characters before the final versions in Flash were made.

 

Something I noticed though with the way they draw Sunset and Twilight in the sketches though has sort of always bugged me since I've seen it:

 

 

I love these designs for the characters but I can't help but notice when we compare it to the final versions:

 

http://orig06.deviantart.net/6676/f/2015/093/0/8/sunset_shimmer_by_xebck-d8o9f3s.png

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/5/59/FANMADE-_Sci-Twi.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151015031044

 

Does anyone notice that their feminine features were downplayed... Significantly? Like in the initial concepts they had the curves of women. Hell in one shot you can clearly see that Sunset has an ass. Their legs are more defined as feminine, their bodies look like they were intended to show that they are distinctly female, but in the final version they toned down all curves and features to give them more of a "generic" body type that everyone in the movie shares.

 

Now I'm not complaining about lack of sexualization, in fact I didn't really even see the originals as "sexy" I am kind of annoyed that is appears as the artists who made the original more or less were required to "tone down" their original designs for the sake of political correctness. I mean I think it's pretty clear that they intended the characters to be very womanly from the initial designs, but no doubt because people make a big fuss over stuff like Barbie being too skinny that they had to downplay it.

 

Like it kind of bugs me because basically we are telling kids that having a nice body should not be desired. I get that glorifying the overly skinny body type is a bad thing, but we're also kind of teaching kids to desire to be attractive is a bad thing and that no one should want to have curves. Hell I remember my niece watching the second movie asking why the characters don't look like real people and look like stick figures and I kind of realized that it's true. Why do the characters all have that generic stick figure look when it's clear that the creators desired more than that.

 

Are we toning things down and making everything cookie cutter so people don't have to see differences that we deem are "bad" for kids? I feel like as much as I love the EQG movies, they do a lot of crap that is non-progressive such as showing everyone with the same exact body type, removing any feminine features of the characters, and of course I always felt that making all the characters having technicolor skins was a cop out to avoid a discussion about race. I always kind of felt if they made the characters have real skin tones they could create a nice discussion about race. Like why is it such a bad thing to imagine a black Twilight, or an Asian Fluttershy? I always felt if they had done that it would have won a lot of parents over because it makes that connection with kids of "Yeah people of different races hang out and treat each other equally, you should too."

 

Like I get that MLP is a kids show, but the movies were clearly made to target a "slightly" older audience and as a result they had the opportunity to talk about older and more mature issues and they just kind of always copped out of it.

[Limeblossom 482]

I think we should've expected that they'll cut it down.

[Guest]

I think we should've expected that they'll cut it down.

 

To me though I see it as there is desexualizing then there is trying to beat a mentality into kids heads that having any kind of preference when it comes to people is bad. "You can't dislike anyone for any reason except if they are a douchebag to you, and even then you still have to make sure they pass a universal douchebag test."

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

and of course I always felt that making all the characters having technicolor skins was a cop out to avoid a discussion about race.

 

I'm personally okay with this.

Not only because I know it would have been a WAR and not a discussion.

But also because it could have alienated some little kids. Sure lots of little kids identify with characters of difference races than them. I did when I was that age. But from what I've read, some don't. I think the technicolor skin is ugly as hell, but I'd rather do without more "discussion" (read "screaming") about race.

 

Not that it matters to me, since I really have no stake in this... I despise EQG on a conceptual level.

Edited January 30, 2016 by ShadOBabe

[Guest]

I'm personally okay with this.

Not only because I know it would have been a WAR and not a discussion.

But also because it could have alienated some little kids. Sure lots of little kids identify with characters of difference races than them. I did when I was that age. But from what I've read, some don't. I think the technicolor skin is ugly as hell, but I'd rather do without more "discussion" (read "screaming") about race.

 

Not that it matters to me, since I really have no stake in this... I despise EQG on a conceptual level.

So would making the character's real races have made them somehow... Less relate-able to people? I don't get it.

 

Isn't it more alienating to be like "yeah you can only relate to white girls because you're white, so we made sure you won't run into that problem by removing race entirely from a show." Like shouldn't we be teaching kids that it's okay to identify with people that are different than you?

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

So would making the character's real races have made them somehow... Less relate-able to people? I don't get it.

 

Isn't it more alienating to be like "yeah you can only relate to white girls because you're white, so we made sure you won't run into that problem by removing race entirely from a show." Like shouldn't we be teaching kids that it's okay to identify with people that are different than you?

 

No, I totally agree. But you'll see a lot of, for example, minority mothers complaining that their little girls can't identify with say, Queen Elsa or Princess Anna from Frozen. I say that's stupid, but I'm not shocked Hasbro didn't want to deal with that crap.

 

I can see it now: "Why did you make Applejack white? My little girl LOVED Applejack, but now feels uncomfortable because she's a different skin color than her! And I can't teach her that Applejack is the same person she loves on the inside, no mater the skin color on the outside. That would take effort on my part!"

Edited January 30, 2016 by ShadOBabe

[Guest]

 

 

No, I totally agree. But you'll see a lot of, for example, minority mothers complaining that their little girls can't identify with say, Queen Elsa or Princess Anna from Frozen. I say that's stupid, but I'm not shocked Hasbro didn't want to deal with that crap.

 

I guess, but giving into them is kind of making the problem worse. Racism is kept alive by appeasing racists and not forcing them to face that different races exist.

 

I mean I get not wanting to deal with it, but considering Hasbro has been praised for the "progressiveness" of the show, you'd think they would be bold enough to take it a step further.

[cider float 2,537]

Isn't every female character in the show wearing high heels (even Rainbow Dash in her sports wear) not a form of patriarchal sexualization?

 

As well as wearing a skirt/dress.

Edited January 30, 2016 by cider float

[PiratePony 8,475]

I think that the original concepts look fine, and I guess they went simpler...maybe it was easier to animate on a larger scale, I don't know. To me it doesn't look sexual at all, just a more natural body shape. I'm fine with it being toned down, but I would have been just as fine as it being the same in the concept. If people had a problem with even that then...that's nitpicking in my opinion. This issue with body image seems to be a construct of adults anyway - kids don't care. 

 

As far as natural skin to open up a racial discussion - for this series, I don't think it's necessary. I like the technicolor skin tones, as it matches directly with the tones in FIM. Also, I like how the dolls rival Monster High with the multi colors as opposed to trying to battle Barbie. 

[Riganthor 484]

I find a shame that this scene was scraped in the first place and the toned down sexualization. Well for that I have only one thing to say. Not only do they refuse to show girls who DON'T like to wear dresses but now also those who look verry feminine. 

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

I guess, but giving into them is kind of making the problem worse. Racism is kept alive by appeasing racists and not forcing them to face that different races exist.

 

I mean I get not wanting to deal with it, but considering Hasbro has been praised for the "progressiveness" of the show, you'd think they would be bold enough to take it a step further.

 

Hasbro isn't progressive at all. The show creators are the progressive ones.

Hasbro is the toy giant. They're the same ones that had to be FORCED by complaining fans to make an actual WHITE Celestia toy. They just couldn't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that people would want a toy that actually resembled the character from the show rather than an ugly pink thing. Because obviously, little girls only ever want pink things, even if the true pearly white version is what they find pretty.

Edited January 30, 2016 by ShadOBabe

[cider float 2,537]

The sketches style didn't stay consistent though and it actually looked like the style usually found in webcomics. 

[Megas 27,569]

I'm personally okay with this.

Not only because I know it would have been a WAR and not a discussion.

But also because it could have alienated some little kids. Sure lots of little kids identify with characters of difference races than them. I did when I was that age. But from what I've read, some don't. I think the technicolor skin is ugly as hell, but I'd rather do without more "discussion" (read "screaming") about race.

Yeah, I agree with this too. If Derpibooru and Tumblr taught me anything, it's that when it comes to mixing race into the humanized mane 6 it always spells disaster and will cause everyone involved to be at each others throats. I mean there are examples of mixing races being well received(a lot of people tend to like Black Twilight or Hispanic Rainbow Dash), but most of the time it's bound to be a controversial topic

 

I agree with body types though, though I feel it's because FiM was hit with a similar problem too. I remember a while back that Lauren Faust originally intended for the ponies to have different body types(i.e., Fluttershy being skinny and frail looking, Pinkie being chubby, AJ being muscular), but she had to tone it down for the toys. I'd figure it was the same for EQG. I mean all things considered, with what they had to work with I think DHX did a lot better with the EQG designs than I would've expected, but I do wish DHX would stick to their guns and make character designs the way they'd see the characters 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Megas

[Steve Piranha 29,419]

Well, I got this:

1-Skin color: Sadly, we as a society, haven't outgrown racism entirely, we still subtly judge people by ethnic background and skin color. By making the characters have the multicolored skin, not only they'll shut the hay up to those with ethnic complex, but also to identify them more with their horse counterparts. Kill two birds with one stone 

 

2-Sexualization: Crossing the line of being inappropriate no-withstanding, I think the main reason they kept with the more modest breast size and less shapely legs and curves, is to simplify the design mainly. I think the other issue they found is, by making them, let's say.... "sexy", will take away the fact they're supposed to look like teens, otherwise they wouldn't look much different as Celly, Luna and Cadance, as there doesn't seem much problem with them having some.... "assets". Another thing that helps my point with this sexualization topic, are the antagonists. Sunny was clearly made to look more attractive despite her body shape being the same, but her demon form was more fan-servicey butterface (it means "but her face" if you're wondering), the Dasslers took the trope further with their dancing, and Midnight Sparkle even further (SHE EVEN SHOWS SOME  CLEAVAGE )  

[ManaMinori 4,145]

I actually kinda like the girls with a bit of curve on them. Makes them look better thn the bean poles they are, currently. No legs, no hips, no chest, no backside

 

They're walking pencils

[joshuachasseur 6]

I don't think their designs in the movie are too bad. I don't think their that thin

[KillSh0ck4 102]

Huh... didn't even notice that when I saw the deleted scenes and I even own FG on Blu-ray for God's sake!

 

Anyways they should've kept the design from the sketches (Sunsets ass though!). It wouldn't even have made a difference, little girls watching wouldn't automatically point it out and say "Mom why is there body different" or something along the lines. Parents wouldn't care either unless it actually showed them nude. Round curvy hips? Parents wouldnt care.

 

It's the things like this that makes me hate Hasbro sometimes. They think anything that is deemed sexual they either bring it down or reduce it significantly! They do realize 90% of fans are men not little girls.

 

I do wish they would have used the original sketches though like I said Sunsets ass!

[Gestum 2,493]

and of course I always felt that making all the characters having technicolor skins was a cop out to avoid a discussion about race.

You don't think that they made it that way because it is that way in the show?

[Guest]

 

 

You don't think that they made it that way because it is that way in the show?

 

It's possible, but I don't believe so because when thinking "Let's convert the characters to humans" for many people the first idea that comes to head is not keeping them technicolored. The though process isn't exactly a natural instinct. Though I do not dismiss the possibility.

 

 

 

Isn't every female character in the show wearing high heels (even Rainbow Dash in her sports wear) not a form of patriarchal sexualization?   As well as wearing a skirt/dress.

 

Yeah, I suppose. So if their goal was to avoid that, they failed.

 

 

 

I think that the original concepts look fine, and I guess they went simpler...maybe it was easier to animate on a larger scale, I don't know.

 

See I thought that at first too. But really they also cut out like 20 minutes of the film, and I am willing to bet they did the same with the first two films as well, so extra work that wasn't even used went into making them, so it's not really an excuse that the bodies were all made the same for the sake of "less work".

 

 

 

To me it doesn't look sexual at all, just a more natural body shape. I'm fine with it being toned down, but I would have been just as fine as it being the same in the concept. If people had a problem with even that then...that's nitpicking in my opinion. This issue with body image seems to be a construct of adults anyway - kids don't care. 

 

Opening a dialogue with kids though can be beneficial. Just as much as "fat shaming" is a big problem, we also have the issue of skinny or even "sexy" shaming. We teach kids that sexy is bad, then when they get older we tell them that they want to be sexy. It just messes them up more.

 

 

 

As far as natural skin to open up a racial discussion - for this series, I don't think it's necessary. I like the technicolor skin tones, as it matches directly with the tones in FIM. Also, I like how the dolls rival Monster High with the multi colors as opposed to trying to battle Barbie. 

 

Monster High and Barbie are made by the same people, and Barbie recently DID open the dialogue with body types as they just revealed they will be selling different body type Barbies now.

 

 

 

The sketches style didn't stay consistent though and it actually looked like the style usually found in webcomics. 

 

True but something that did seem prominent is that they never really drew the characters as the twigs the final product does.

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree with this too. If Derpibooru and Tumblr taught me anything, it's that when it comes to mixing race into the humanized mane 6 it always spells disaster and will cause everyone involved to be at each others throats. I mean there are examples of mixing races being well received(a lot of people tend to like Black Twilight or Hispanic Rainbow Dash), but most of the time it's bound to be a controversial topic

 

THAT is the problem though. By giving in to avoid people bitching you basically are letting them continue being bigoted. If anything they should have done it and when people complained stood by it and told them that they weren't going to change a character's race to some other one just because people "envisioned" them as a certain race or they have problems with a character being a certain race.

 

 

 

Anyways they should've kept the design from the sketches (Sunsets ass though!). It wouldn't even have made a difference, little girls watching wouldn't automatically point it out and say "Mom why is there body different" or something along the lines. Parents wouldn't care either unless it actually showed them nude. Round curvy hips? Parents wouldnt care.

 

THIS THIS THIS.

 

Kids are not going to see a rounded Sunset ass and suddenly be corrupted. They live in the real world so they OBVIOUSLY see real adults that look like that, so it really wouldn't suddenly ruin them or something. And any parent that cares needs a reality check because chances are they too have an ass and boobs.

 

At the end of the day anyone who would complain about the designs being the way the sketches did them clearly doesn't live in a real world because kids are not going to see curves and ass and suddenly turn into sex fiends. They are just going to see characters that actually look like real people. 

[KatonRyu 1,033]

I do think the decision to tone down the curves came from some underpaid moral guardian who felt the need to remind everyone of their existence by ultimately useless edits, but the racial aspect doesn't feel like a cop out to me. Honestly, the characters are based on multi-colored ponies, so why not give them the same skin tone as the ponies' fur?

 

Then again, I'm one of those people who long since stopped caring about race in media except in the case of blatant attempts at being politically correct. (Black Hermione comes to mind) In those cases, I just feel that rather than fixing the issue, they're perpetuating it by accenting the alleged differences between races. In EQG's case, I think the technicolor skin colors are a good way to stay away from that shitstorm.

[ggg-2 3,552]

 The subplot with Sunset was actually removed because the writers felt that her wanting to return to Equestria went against her character development.

[cider float 2,537]

I don't see a problem with it. There needed be some kind of distinction between teens and adults (curvier Cadance). Teens all drawn more petite and adults drawn with some curves. I suppose with Celestia and Luna they just made them taller.

[Gearbox10mm 794]

Are we really having a conversation about why the humanized version of a talking unicorn from an alternate dimension doesn't have enough junk in the trunk?

 

 

 

That's enough internet for today.

[cider float 2,537]

Are we really having a conversation about why the humanized version of a talking unicorn from an alternate dimension doesn't have enough junk in the trunk?

 

 

 

That's enough internet for today.

Ehehehehehehehe you know you like it.