spoiler So...Celestia and Luna weren't born alicorns?

[Prince Firemane 309]

Maybe it's just confirming the idea that Cadance is the first Alicorn to actually breed.

[Justin_Case001 4,880]

I just covered this in my episode review, but I feel this is an extremely important issue, and I have some rather strong opinions, so I'm going to quote myself here.

But actually, what upset me most about this episode was the sister's lines regarding natural alicorn births.  (Paraphrasing) "There's never been an alicorn born in Equestia," and "We don't fully understand it ourselves".  This seems to imply that the sisters were not born alicorns, which is f*cking bullsh*t in my opinion.  They had to have been born alicorns.  They age at the natural alicorn rate, and are thousands of years old.  If they transformed, then that means that Twilight is now immortal, too, and I don't think that's what the writer's intended.  Looking at this from a technical standpoint, the sisters neither confirmed nor denied anything here.  Celestia said that no alicorn has been born in Equestria.  This is true.  Celesia and Luna were born an indeterminate amount of time before Equestria was founded.  We don't know where they were born.  Saying that no alicorn has been born in Equestria is not proof that the sisters were not born alicorns.  Luna said that they don't fully understand this phenomenon.  Also not proof of anything.  Perhaps she just means that they don't understand why natural alicorn births occur.  This doesn't mean that they themselves were not born alicorns.  It just means they don't know why.  This is a magical land, but what they don't have are microscopes.  They can't study DNA.  They can't see the double helix.  If they could, perhaps they'd understand why alicorn births occur, and why they are so rare.  But as is, they can only speculate.  This doesn't mean the sisters aren't natural born alicorns.  I just don't see how they couldn't be.  All we can say for 100% certain is that they were both alicorns before Equestria was founded, and that they were approached by Starswirl and asked to become princesses of Equestria because they represented what the land stands for--the unification of the three races.  They accepted, and were appointed as princesses.  They are each, at minimum, ~1100 years, old, but probably much, much older.  It's highly improbable that Luna would have Nightmare Mooned up in only a few years.  I'm guessing they ruled for at least 1000 years before NMM, making them at least 2000.  That's all we can say for absolute certain.  We don't know exactly when they were born, we don't know where, we know nothing of their parents, and we don't know the circumstances of their birth.  I still say they must be natural born alicorns.  If they're not, that really, REALLY pisses me off, for reasons even I'm not entirely sure of.  I think it's because the prospect of Turbulence Cardioid being the only natural born alicorn in pony history completely cheapens and diminishes the sisters, as if they're not already diminished enough as is.  But really, I think the most plausible scenario is that Darth Plagueis manipulated the midi-chlorians to create the sisters.

And there you have it.

 

 

Considering that the Journal of the Two sisters had stated that they were born Alicorns but the show itself has all be declared they're not born Alicorns, this is a good case for folks to take. When we see a direct contradiction like this happens the show canon takes priority over it. Meaning that the Journal of the Two Sisters point that Celestia and Luna are born Alicorns has been retconned and replaced by the show's take that they weren't born Alicorns.

But actually, I'm pretty certain that the Journal doesn't technically state that they were born alicorns.  It also doesn't state that they weren't.  I still say they were born alicorns, but I'm just trying to be as technical as possible, and determine what we can actually say for 100% certain, and what we can't.  All we know for sure from the Journal is that they were alicorns before Equestia was founded.  As far as the show canon taking priority, I guess I can't really argue, though there are times when I feel like the written word is the final word.  Case in point: in my mind, the book The Fall of Reach will ALWAYS be the final canon, and the book is completely inconsistent with the game Halo: Reach.  So which are you gonna take?  I guess, technically, the game/show have to be considered priority canon, but then again, the book and the Journal came first.  Sometimes, when push comes to shove, I accept the story I like the best, and throw out the rest.  It's all just made up anyway, and often times writers will contradict themselves.

 

In other words, naturally-born alicorns existed, may still exist outside Equestria, or may live in secret in Equestria. The Journal canon of Luna and Celestia being naturally-born alicorns remains intact.

Yes, exactly.

 

 

My theory of Celestia and Luna being magically conceived still stands.

Me likes.

 

 

Also, I want to point out something mindblowing that I completely overlooked.  The most influential, provocative, and mysterious line in the Journal of the Sisters comes when Luna is talking about the Royal Canterlot Voice.  She says, "The Alicorns thought it was an important part of our education..."  The alicorns.  THE ALICORNS

 

 

 

 

There are others...........

[Nuke87654 1,849]

But actually, I'm pretty certain that the Journal doesn't technically state that they were born alicorns.  It also doesn't state that they weren't.  I still say they were born alicorns, but I'm just trying to be as technical as possible, and determine what we can actually say for 100% certain, and what we can't.  All we know for sure from the Journal is that they were alicorns before Equestia was founded.  As far as the show canon taking priority, I guess I can't really argue, though there are times when I feel like the written word is the final word.  Case in point: in my mind, the book The Fall of Reach will ALWAYS be the final canon, and the book is completely inconsistent with the game Halo: Reach.  So which are you gonna take?  I guess, technically, the game/show have to be considered priority canon, but then again, the book and the Journal came first.  Sometimes, when push comes to shove, I accept the story I like the best, and throw out the rest.  It's all just made up anyway, and often times writers will contradict themselves.

 

..

 I do agree that they may still be born Alicorns but they have no idea of how it's possible to conceive one naturally (ala sexy times have failed). Still I wouldn't pass the possibility that they weren't born Alicorns up as that statement still can mean that too.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

https://mlpforums.com/blog/2981/entry-19658-amy-keating-rogers-elaborates-on-alicorns/

 

Well this blog entry has a link where Amy explains more on this. It does seem more likely now that either Josh Haber didn't paid attention to it, did acknowledged it and was doing to troll fans with how he worded it, or something drastic happened while Amy was out. It does give more credance to the belief that Luna and Celestia were born Alicorns considering how they had discussed and agreed upon it. I don't see much reason for why Josh would make it non canon if they had such discussions.

[Castle Bleck 19,319]

https://mlpforums.com/blog/2981/entry-19658-amy-keating-rogers-elaborates-on-alicorns/

 

Well this blog entry has a link where Amy explains more on this. It does seem more likely now that either Josh Haber didn't paid attention to it, did acknowledged it and was doing to troll fans with how he worded it, or something drastic happened while Amy was out. It does give more credance to the belief that Luna and Celestia were born Alicorns considering how they had discussed and agreed upon it. I don't see much reason for why Josh would make it non canon if they had such discussions.

 

So Celestia and Luna basically have Alzheimer's?

[Steve Piranha 29,414]

https://mlpforums.com/blog/2981/entry-19658-amy-keating-rogers-elaborates-on-alicorns/

 

Well this blog entry has a link where Amy explains more on this. It does seem more likely now that either Josh Haber didn't paid attention to it, did acknowledged it and was doing to troll fans with how he worded it, or something drastic happened while Amy was out. It does give more credance to the belief that Luna and Celestia were born Alicorns considering how they had discussed and agreed upon it. I don't see much reason for why Josh would make it non canon if they had such discussions.

At this point, there bound to be contradictions, but nothing in the premiere suggested one as such that it can't be handwaved like many of the things tweeted by Amy. Flurry being the first alicorn born in Equestria is easilly explained that no alicorn were born there, as Celly and Luna were:

1) Already born

2) Canterlot wasn't a part of Equestria after it's founding, where alicorns used to live 

3) The sisters claiming unknowledge to alicorn birth can be explained that they either were the last alicorn born in that time, and/or they were too young. The later is possible as they were still blank flanks in their early stages of their ruling 

[Frostgage 7,975]

Celestia and Luna's origins are still pretty murky. Hopefully that gets featured in a future episode.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

Celestia and Luna's origins are still pretty murky. Hopefully that gets featured in a future episode.

My money's on the movie. They want a big plotline for the big screen, and that's pretty low hanging fruit and an easy plot idea for the movie.

[Grtxkkyz 388]

Well, in the end all i can say about Cadance succesfully having the first alicorn foal is...

Life, uh, finds a way...

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

https://mlpforums.com/blog/2981/entry-19658-amy-keating-rogers-elaborates-on-alicorns/

 

Well this blog entry has a link where Amy explains more on this. It does seem more likely now that either Josh Haber didn't paid attention to it, did acknowledged it and was doing to troll fans with how he worded it, or something drastic happened while Amy was out. It does give more credance to the belief that Luna and Celestia were born Alicorns considering how they had discussed and agreed upon it. I don't see much reason for why Josh would make it non canon if they had such discussions.

Alot of haber's dialogue with fans and on twitter seems to indicate that he really just doesn't give a shit about continuity and is more concerned with just making the Episode to episode plots work than trying to worry about a serious ongoing canon.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

Well, in the end all i can say about Cadance succesfully having the first alicorn foal is...

Life, uh, finds a way...

Have a brohoof for the Jurassic Park reference. XD

[AlbaTross 1,586]

Didn't The Journal of the Two Sisters imply that Celestia and Luna came over from another land? If so, then "Equestria" hasn't seen the birth of a naturally born Alicorn, and what Celestia said can be true without retconning anything. Moreover, the book canon states that it is Celestia who made Twilight and Cadance into Alicorns, so they weren't born that way. What Celestia and Luna didn't know was that someone who was made into an Alicorn (in this case Cadance) truly had her DNA completely shifted to that of an Alicorn rather than just sharing some of the properties of one, which would be necessary for her to be able to have Alicorn offspring, or else she would just contribute Pegasus DNA to the mix and that wouldn't be sufficient to create an Alicorn even though Shining Armor is a Unicorn. Flurry Heart would have been born either a Unicorn or Pegasus, likely the former. So, yeah, Celestia and Luna did learn something new.

[Castle Bleck 19,319]

Well, in the end all i can say about Cadance succesfully having the first alicorn foal is...

Life, uh, finds a way...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8fwS3ZTKbk

 

So now this is, what, "Friendship Is Jurassic"?

Edited March 30, 2016 by A.V.

[CrystalCarol 16]

They never really said that they weren't natural alicorns. They just said that Equestria had never seen the birth of an Alicorn before. And we know from the Hearths Warming Eve episode that Equestria wasn't always on the map. Perhaps Luna and Celestia don't originate from Equestria?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8fwS3ZTKbk

 

So now this is, what, "Friendship Is Jurassic"?

Yes, yes it is

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CRnNM6uSeQk

Edited March 30, 2016 by CarolBaby

[Grtxkkyz 388]

With all this talk about Alicorns, Jurassic Park and dinosaurs, have some Chris Pratt!

[heavens-champion 1,905]

I guess Josh Haber never read Journal of the Two Sisters.

Not that I have, but from what I've gathered, it says they were natural-born alicorns.

Maybe they just forgot.

Meh, The Crystalling was underwhelming, anyway. It would have been better if it was about Starlight and Sunburst.

[Castle Bleck 19,319]

With all this talk about Alicorns, Jurassic Park and dinosaurs, have some Chris Pratt!

 

Celestia: "Swiggity swooty; I'm coming for that booty."

[cmarston1 5,959]

The most plausible explanation would be that Celestia and Luna were born outside of Equestria.

[Castle Bleck 19,319]

The most plausible explanation would be that Celestia and Luna were born outside of Equestria.

 

According to The Journal, Equestria hadn't been founded yet, so ^this^.

Edited September 4, 2016 by A.V.

[-Octavia- 1,176]

I guess Josh Haber never read Journal of the Two Sisters.

Not that I have, but from what I've gathered, it says they were natural-born alicorns.

This, and the fact that they were also mentored by other Alicorns in their youth, and Starswirl, who had worked with other Alicorns as well. 'Twould suggest that they are of that lineage naturally, and that the race was either more abundant eons ago, or that their home was not even in pre-founded Equestria, but mayhap a land overseas.

[Sonic5421 423]

Since Celestia and Luna were born some time before Equestria was founded by the three tribes and Star Swirl asked them to be Equestria's co-sovereigns to unite the tribes, as read in The Journal of the Two Sisters, I'm saying that they are Alicorns by birthright, and the critical key to that is what Celestia said about an Alicorn not being born "in Equestria" since that means that she and Luna were naturally born in the time before Equestria was even founded.

 

Seeing that it's been so long since they saw a naturally-born Alicorn before being asked to become the co-sovereigns of the newly-founded Equestria, there's been no Alicorns naturally born since then, so many of their citizens never even knew it was possible, and they were not prepared to explain it because of how long it has been since their own births and the knowledge may have faded from their memories as well.