I don't think Starlight is quite as "OP" as some might think.

[Goat-kun 2,505]

Keep in mind they only did that with flash because they had ANOTHER love interest to bring in instead for twilight though: So you'd just get Twilight clone 4.0 showing up to take Starlight's place

At least Timber Spruce is somewhat compatible piece of furniture. He could get dismembered by a hydra or marry Twilight and I wouldn’t care either way. That’s progress in my eyes

 

Wiggle, wiggle, little fish.

Yes, but my lovely little Tibia did serve her purpose to expose this folly, didn’t’ she? Even so, Thorax and Chrysalis will never become main characters or be prioritized in relation to any other background pony inside the confines of FIM. You are complaining that one background character should be more background than the other, while I’m complaining that one main character shouldn’t be more background than a background character. And if you insist, I will gladly admit that my fanfic attempt was shit if that would make you feel any better about your own hypocrisy in regards to canon characters

 

You can stop explaining why Starlight works in a story that was specifically made for Starlight and start thinking if she works in stories of other ponies. What I suspect is that she is unable to function outside the confines of her redemption story as a support character and that our glorious writers shall put her on the pedestal like they did with Sunset. If you are right, then that would be precedent. If I am right, then it would just be history repeating itself. And if we both are wrong and they do the Flash Treatment, then I’m gonna praise the gods. What are the odds?

 

Also, it’s not about imitating Luna or Twilight, but imitating Luna’s and Twilight’s stories. That can be done by any kind of character, and each time this would happen, that character would steal something from older characters, not because of behavioral similarity but because of story similarity. This is a thing now, and whether it happened because our glorious writers planned it or not is irrelevant. It is bad writing all the same.

[Ganondorf8 11,151]

I never really viewed Starlight as being overpowered. Sure, she has shown that she possesses an incredible amount of power that can rival the magic used by the princesses, yet ever since reforming and flourishing under Twilight's guidance, she hasn't really gone to extreme lengths in showcasing her magical talent with the exception of testing her abilities under safe conditions. Starlight became powerful because she wanted to get rid of cutie marks because losing her only friend was the result of Sunburst receiving his a lot sooner than anyone expected.

 

To remove cutie marks takes an incredible amount of talent and since she chose to isolate herself and not make new friends, Starlight spent that time pursuing magic until she believed she had enough. Being defeated by Twilight meant she needed to go even further so she continued her original pursuit in hopes of making Twilight's life miserable. She even managed to outdo Star Swirl by perfecting a spell that he himself created.

 

And yet, once she realized that her goals, there was no real need for her to continue gaining power. I mean, she still does for the sake of magical knowledge, but no longer desires it for dominion over all she surveys.

 

Is Starlight stronger than Star Swirl? That's a difficult question to answer since we don't really know the full extent of Star Swirl's power aside from references made by other characters. Is she stronger than Twilight? I'd say there are fairly even although Twilight does refrain from going overboard while Starlight doesn't seem to possess that nature.

[LeafFerret 3,382]

In fact, Starlight is a foil for Sombra as well. Gifted unicorn going tyranical, but in opposite ways. A foil for Discord as well, as his total opposite. Total chaos vs total equality. And a foil to every single villain as she is no super-entity, she's "just a pony, she makes mistakes from times to tiiimes!" *ahem*

Those are for her villain days. Her reformed days, she's an expy of Luna, Sunset Shimmer if you include EQG and unicorn Twilight. All the more so in that they're both students to an alicorn princess. But again, she's the exact opposite in some ways:

- Twilight learned under Celestia, Starlight all alone.

- Twilight didn't care about friends, for Starlight it is all she ever wanted.

- Twilight wanted to be left alone, Starlight's one greatest fear is loneliness.

- Twilight is more of a thinker, Starlight is more of a doer.

- Twilight is very "by the rules", Starlight is very "outside the box".

- Twilight was forced friends unto her without trying, Starlight scares others away the more she tries.

This was pretty much what turned me off for Twilight. Although I thought she was okay for the first 3 seasons, after that it was all downhill from there. She kept trying to do things by the rules and being a perfectionist, she was still basically doing the same stuff that she was doing in the first season and not evolving even after 6 seasons, not to mention that she has a vanilla personality as well. Her flaws was exposed in "No Second Prances" when her self centreness got the better of her and she tried to force Starlight to go by her rules, the S6 Finale was the last straw for me for her.

[Ninjaed 526]

Fishy fishy!

 

Eh, Timber Spruce felt somewhat forced as well. And I don't know about you, but when I have something on my mind, stuff like love goes way above my head. Can't deal with that atm, there's something more important, kthxbye. So sci-twi being all sparkly-eyed (lulz...) makes it seem not that big a deal in the end. Hydra I'd care not, marriage I'd be a bit " Really now?" but other than that yeah, nice piece of furniture there. Just slight bonus points for trying to be a good bro I guess :awuh:

 

Hmm admitting that your hypothetical story is shit would ill serve you at all, and it wouldn't disprove my point. I've aways said the losses would outweigh the gains from canon to hypothetical scenario, so if anything it proves my point. Bad move there

 

Next your example is wrong here. Tibia and Chrysalis both secondary yes (or background if you will) but Twilight and Starlight, both main.

- I'd fear Tibia being more important than Chrysais (new secondary > old secondary).

- You fear Starlight being more important than Twilight (new main > old main).

Yet as I've proven by screentime in an earlier post, Starlight has the least among the Mane 6 + herself. Meaning she's not more important than any other main character, premiere and finale being special cases to introduce her as a recurring character. So far, only the premiere and finale giving her the limelight make it even debatable.

 

Wait, wasn't your beef with her that she was bland? Huh, guess that's a point taken then. Yay

As for her story impeding on others...is that truly so? I fully disagree here. As highlighted before, she may be foil and expy to many, she does so by going the totally opposite way. And if Starlight is bad, does that mean Discord and Trixie are as well? Similar stories to Luna after all, right? Again, I highly doubt being hypocrytical when I see such glaring double-standards... Unless you say they are, but that'd truly be bad faith there.

I see the "they're secondary" argument coming a mile away, so yes they are. However, Starlight is a far more complex than a childish super-entity trying to have fun or a self-absorbed unicorn jealous of Twilight. There is far more to tell with her, and many a story to be told after that. Doing so with a condensed pack of misguidance, abandonment, redemption and more requires more presence than a secondary character can provide. Not just that, circles of friends vary in real life, and there are hurdles there to explore.

 

Speaking of, about functionning outside redemption, I'll say there's rehabilitation already. That's a huge arc in and of itself already. I've given a few episode plot examples already with:

- Rarity: dealing with customers and helping/teaching (+ possibly new designs or stuff, since Starlight likes thinking outside the box)

- Pinkie: helping Starlight not to be so awkward, showing a more serious, insightful side to Pinkie

And others I can't remember, but I can come up with new ones easily:

- AJ: Starlight doing without magic and dealing with remnants of distrust for element of honesty AJ - not including the Apple family, that'd be too long

- Fluttershy: counseling/tutoring somepony she can relate to dealing with social anxietey

- RD: Starlight trying her hoof at sports and RD showing a considerate & remorseful side after hurting Starlight because, well... RD is RD

- And Twilight as well, starting with Twilight's POV about teaching and not understanding Starlight's reactions to what she considers proper teaching, for example.

 

That's just for the main characters. Mrs. Cakes may still remember Starlight creating that huge cake, Big Mac the talking spell... Seconday characters have a plethora of interactions possible with Starlight before she even goes through her rehabilitation arc, where she'd gain more "normal" traits that can be played on. Not to mention her connections to the changelings and the crystal empire, broadening the range of possible plots even more. And there's possibly Starswirl...

I think you get the picture now. Nothing stolen here. Yup, it's all new. Foil and expy to many and a lot of untapped potential, all crammed into one single lonesome mare

 

Brohoof! /)

^This! You got that completely right. I don't have much to add, really

 

Almost brohoof but...oh screw this, let's brohoof!

/)

You're right that Twilight needs to progress now. She's so "by the book" she loses sight that's not how friendship goes. Ofc, Twilight being Twilight, she'll retain some of it, but teaching Starlight will show make her realise it doesn't always go as intended. Starlight bonding with Trixie being the perfect proof. It might sound dumb when watching, but keep in mind this is truth in television. Look at how flirting "works". People try to follow "foolproof plans" to land a date and stuff. Sure, some might work more than others, but in the end, if you wish to go any further, you need to be yourself, not the mask you think the other person wishes to see. I can see a few good lessons for both young and old stemming from this

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Goat-kun 2,505]

When no mod was looking, Goat-kun demanded forty rare Pepes. I demanded 40 rare Pepes. That’s as many as four tens. And that’s terrible.

That is irrelevant as it didn’t serve me like that in the first place. Why do you think I was so adamant about Tibia not being canon? Any dumb-dumb would realize that you’d dispute just about anything that didn’t involve Starlight and her precious little redemption story, so when you started nagging about Chrysalis, my academic curiosity got replaced by more opportunistic tendencies, and I placed myself in your shoes. And boy did you defend my position for me. Post after post of confessions. Go ahead and read what you have written. I daresay you don’t need me to explain why Starlight is crap.

 

And in case you were wondering, Tibia would indeed overshadow Chrysalis. Then again, who wouldn’t? FIM characters aren’t exactly the most intriguing thing in the showbiz, and instead of making the existing ones better, our glorious writers tend to replace or stagnate them.

 

The only thing that doesn’t work in my favor is that I have made Tibia too interesting, which is a stark contrast to Starlight’s nonexistent purpose beyond her redemption story. A minor inconvenience, but I rest my case nonetheless.

 

Do you really want to know how I would make Season Six? I’d kick Starlight back to her village in the S05 finale, then give Mane 6 new stuff to do in the spirit of personal and environmental exploration. Buck Starlight, buck her story, buck the new changelings. So go ahead and explain to me why that would be an objectively bad idea. I doubt you’ll get far without putting this on the scale of your own affection by using Starlight as a counterweight. Do you understand it yet? It doesn’t matter what story gets chosen as long as that story holds great worth for your viewers in comparison to other potential stories. Morals, lessons, character development: at the end of everything, these things are irrelevant without enjoyment.

 

P.S: Oh yes, any character could work with Mane 6 if you’d try hard enough. The question remains if it would actually be interesting. I fail to find your proposals to be in line with show’s purpose. You are trying to turn FIM into a self-help manual instead of striving to make it fun and engaging for the target audience.

 

How about it? Can you write something down without thinking like an adult fan, or are you forever caught in the vicious circle of Brony logic?

[Ninjaed 526]

Please never work in a bank, I can't imagine the horror with your rates

 

It would in fact not serve you as I said. Certainly, I started playing your shoes-reversing game precisely to try and understand your view. And after a while, I realised like you that such a Tibia would actually hold interest BUT with a risk of overshadowing Chrysalis. If Tibia was revealed to be unable to rule (one does not properly run a kingdom easily), Chrysalis would come back and voilà. Problem partly solved. It would even help prove Chrysalis is actually not a bad ruler. For the rest, good writing can help solve it.

 

I've said this a few times, but kicking Starlight back to her village would not only make season 5 devoid of change (which is what makes the story and universe ever move on), but it'd defeat the whole point of the season. Bloom & Gloom, Tanks for the memories, the episode with Tree Hugger... It's all about change and friends going their merry way - without you. Starlight embodies this and how love and friendship "change the world you see", but lack of can lead you to making bad decisions due to misguidance.

 

Send her back? In the village he's enslaved without any guidance, without solving the core issue that made her behave that way in the first place? That's just not how it works. It could've been done another way sure, but why scrap the perfect link between season 5 (abandonment) and season 6 (moving past the hurdles thanks to and together with your friends)? Flutter Brutter, the CMC, Spice up your life, Viva Las Pegasus, ... It's all about this.

 

Buck Starlight and you're bucking the very concept of season 6. Exploration? Who cares, it's merely an excuse to give life lessons via slice of life episodes. I'm sure several families have someone like Zephyr who needs support from his family - this one push - to keep going. Leaving Starlight in her village saying "welp, hope it works "? Yeah, no. Just no.

 

With the new changelings, I'm pretty they're going for a "look past differences" season. Maybe friends, maybe not, you can still live together and even work together. Trying to work against the other won't do anyone any good. I might be wrong ofc, but it sounds quite possible. And guess what? Starlight still fits to a T. "Equality anypony?"

 

Now that I've proven it's logical and that Starlight does serve a purpose, is it enjoyable? ...Why wouldn't it? If any character can work and give enjoyable stories, why would Starlight be unable to? Please do prove this without resorting to your biased emotional view. So far, many have enjoyed the Starlight episodes (pre and post reformation) with both the premiere and the finale being quite praised, so good luck with this.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Ganondorf8 11,151]

^This! You got that completely right. I don't have much to add, really

 

Glad you feel that way towards what I said. I don't have anything else I could add to it either. :-P 

[LeafFerret 3,382]

Scroll up for the post.

I have to agree with this a lot, if they send Starlight back to her village then they would pretend that Season 6 didn't happen for her. I don't think they would change her bangs for one season or assist her with friendship if she's just going to go back to her old life being back in the village, it'll be all for nought if that happens. For some reason, Starlight's role in the show just puts a different perspective of the way friendship works, she doesn't have the same 5 friends to rely on and it was a bit more difficult for her to make friends in the town since the only friend she made isn't a resident in Ponyville.

 

Starlight was able to create an alliance with the changlings and was able to save the most important ponies without the use of magic, something that even the most powerful ponies would struggle to handle, she would no doubt be honored in Equestria not to mention that her being in the show would have the show have two unicorns again, something we didn't have when Twilight became an Alicorn back in S3.

[Lil Pip 775]

Another thing is Starlight is weaker with Friendship, so she is weak there, and stronger in other aspects. That effects performance in a mission, you can't say it doesn't. So she is balanced and not OP, people are just upset Twilight was challenged and didn't push them into the ground like all other villains before, or force them to change. They are upset because they didn't get punished or converted, so they don't trust her because it seems more subtle how she changed. 

 

And what cemented that was her tragic past outta left field. I can see why people were bothered, but thats an emotional, not a logical response, and for friendship sometimes you need to acknowledge some emotions are inaccurate. Like you have romantic emotions, and others don't with you, thus your emotion is inaccurate or wrong. Just like it coming out of left field felt wrong, but was it wrong? No, logically no. And this show doesn't do logic so much, it does emotion more, so it makes sense more disagree with it, but it doesn't mean its good that they do.

 

If anything actually because it might've been predictable, having silly endings might generate more discussion, like with the changelings turning weird. So it might actually help interest during hiatus to decrease fan losses somehow.

 

That or they were pressed on time, I recommend watching Dawn Somewhere's Peel off Nanalyzes Modular Scenes on youtube.

[Ninjaed 526]

Emotion vs Reason, the never-ending battle.

 

To be fair, there's also the way it was delivered.

Applebloom seeing her friends leaving her because of getting their cutie marks? Ooh, poor thing

Starlight seeing her only friend leaving her because of getting his cutie mark? Psh, that's no reason for wanting to destroy Equestira you annoying little *curse word* :=:

 

In the end, it's the same scenario but delivered in 2 different ways and with 2 different characters, 1 we're used to seeing and like and the other the season antagonist. And one way it was an episode centered around it, the other way it was a background delivered during a nervous breakdown which doesn't justify anything. I can see why people wouldn't appreciate it, even though they'd have sympathised with her in other circumstances.

[LeafFerret 3,382]

Another thing is Starlight is weaker with Friendship, so she is weak there, and stronger in other aspects. That effects performance in a mission, you can't say it doesn't. So she is balanced and not OP, people are just upset Twilight was challenged and didn't push them into the ground like all other villains before, or force them to change. They are upset because they didn't get punished or converted, so they don't trust her because it seems more subtle how she changed. 

I feel that this is the case of double standards for me, when Starlight tried to destroy Equestria, the fans get upset because she wasn't punished for the actions that she done, if Rainbow Dash does something wrong which in this case is still going after 6 seasons, no one ever says that she should be punished for what she this, one case was in Trade Ya! when she trade Fluttershy for a Daring Do book, even after that, she continues to makes these mistakes and doesn't seem like she has not learnt a thing from Twilight or her friends.

[Goat-kun 2,505]

This isn’t even my final shitpost. Don’t like it? Call Sense of Right Alliance.

It’s the same crap Luna fans wanted to pull when she was the cool princess. These forums were a hovel for psychoanalysts and Luna dindu nuffin crowd that had pretty much the same logic you’re employing to justify her further development into an overwhelming presence. And the reasons why you refuse to even try to think positively about a Starless season don’t speak well for the value of your assessment.

 

I would gladly embrace a new mane member, I would gladly see her being developed, I would not care if she was the one saving the day in a finale to justify her importance, as long as she would fit in. By fitting in, I mean a new profession (farmer, baker, fashion designer, princess …) and a decent basic average girl stereotype to go along with it. You, on the other appendage, just want Starlight to shine no matter what. You want her episodes to be all about problems that fit better into an infirmary of a family doctor than into a show for little girls, and I sensed no self-doubt, no hesitation in those long posts about her traits, as if those are a positive addition by default. Human suffering and friendlessness are problems, but it is on us to discern how and when to approach them. They cannot be the main reason to do an episode or a whole freaking season. The main reason needs to be entertainment, and after five seasons, even the most clueless writer should understand how to push the envelope along with the audience.

 

You think the finale was praised because of Starlight? It was praised because we have finally gotten a decent adventure episode after a whole season of slice of life fiesta. Any thirsty traveler would drink from a dirty puddle in a scorching desert. You should instead ask yourself if we’d still praise the episodes if there were no Starlight and her lesson in them. But hey, I’m all for more such episodes (sans Starlight). In fact, slice-o-lifers are my primary target. It probably sounds crazy after all that has been told. What can I say: we all have our own ways to peddle our agendas. By the by, that is one of the explorations I meant. And the other one which you have so ironically mocked is called character development that does indeed happen mainly through slice of life episodes. And here I though you cared for Mane 6 individual development. Too bad this season has been used to tie loose ends of Mane 6 in such an unspectacular and boring way. But at least they got more episodes than Starlight, right. Maybe you should ease on the Flutter Bro hate if you want to convince someone else how quantity of scenes matters.

 

Still waiting for some of them dank reasons against a Starless season? Or is “Just no” and “Muh Starstory” the best you lot have to offer? It would be business as usual for H-Bro and the fandom the way I see it. Thank goodness good episodes aren’t tied to specific lessons, huh.

[Ninjaed 526]

I had hoped it wouldn't be. Round 2, fight!

 

Oh, more contradictions. One the one hand "yay an action episode finally!", on the other hand "slice-of-life are my primary target". This one isn't serious though, joking about it

 

Where have I said Starlight shouldn't develop into a new profession or whatnot? It's what I've been saying all along, but it cannot happen after one or two episodes if the show wants to stay coherent. She was mayor, now she's jobless  and in search of herself.

She will, in due time. Her struggle to do so is just as important as finally obtaining it - this is actually the very basis for slice-of-life. So yes, it is a positive addition and when she finds it, it'll be even better. No contradictions on my side so far, and it even goes along with what you're advocating.

 

Also, another contradiction - suffering cannot be the focus of a season. Abandonment, the friendship problems they have to solve and more...it's all about this. How people face problems/suffering. One of the messages is that it's not the end of the world, friends will help you get past those. And the writers do so while making it enjoyable and many people don't even notice how it's based on suffering - much like you, it would seem. Go on TVtropes and check any mane character, you'll see they have quite the number of tropes dealing with suffering.

 

For the finale being praised, maybe Starlight played no role in the enjoyment, maybe she did. If she didn't for you, too bad. Every one has their own tastes, I cannot thrust mine on you. But I cannot let you say she's inherently bad, or you'd be thrusting yours on me. Plus it's false.

Many others have indeed praised it because of Starlight, yes. And that's also valid for the other episodes she's starred in. If there was no Starlight, would it still be praised? Why wouldn't it, it was well-executed. That's a non-argument. None of the Mane 6 were in it, yet it was praised. "Oh so no Mane 6 and it's praised, must mean the Mane 6 are useless". This is your current stance, you might want to change it.

 

Ahh, I suspected you would and you did try to weasel yourself out of it, but as I told you, bad move with Tibia. Either she's bad and you're contradicting yourself since you admitted she was interesting despite yourself (thanks for proving it for me), either she's not and you've proven Starlight isn't bad.

Also, not once have you proven a Starless season would have been a better choice so far, instead resorting to "you're just saying she's good because you like her, but I don't". I cannot change my view simply based on your likes and dislikes.

 

 

PS: People have looked more into Luna because she was enjoyable in the first place. Not because logic dictates she's a good character.

 

PPS: I may sound "offensive" and if I do, apologies. I do enjoy debating with you and you've made good points in our discussion, learned a lot. Just wanted to to throw that in somewhere.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Goat-kun 2,505]

It isn’t ogre till I say it’s ogre!

Suffering and Mane 6 on Tropes, really? Are you gonna drag in Rainbow Factory too? You have it backwards. Mane 6 were not created because of their specific episodes, the episodes were created because of Mane 6. This is how FIM works, and if you design a character only because you want to promote certain lessons and then put them in a pseudo-mane status, you do yourself a disservice. Characters are either made with good traits or they tend to remain a nebulous entity (compare Trixie the magician to Sunset the so-and-so). This is the thing that Luna fans didn’t quite understand, since they wanted to push her on the grounds of her issues and not on the grounds that she’s a wholesome character. Moreover, FIM is not a hero’s journey, and that is exactly what you want from Starlight. Mane 6 were not developed properly in this season because our glorious writers are incompetent, and they substituted their development with an easy insertion of a new character for them to focus on. That needs to be remedied. I’m only asking of you and our glorious writers to bend your knee before this directive and kindly step aside. No Starlight + insert pony bullshit across the season, no Chrysalis hunts Starlight for the whole season crap, no Starlight magic demonstration, and no saving the day. She gets 1-2 non-finale, unimportant, character-building episodes like Discord or CMC along ponies of choice, and that is my final offer. Do you agree?

 

As far as Tibia is concerned, you are punching a tank while the carry is safe and sound in the back. Drag her back and forth however you see fit. As I recall, one of your first arguments were that she would lose the Starlight narrative of the season. However, you have failed to provide good reasons as to why Starlight’s story is so important that it needs to take priority over any other that could substitute it. Perhaps I’m blind, but there are few among the neutral folks that liked the finale or this season in general because of Starlight. They liked it despite Starlight. Don’t you think that we all would like it better if she was a different character? Again, as I said: there are some things that development cannot fix, but a rework can. Remove everything she has but the basic premise and build her again from the grounds up. I recon two episodes are quite enough to fulfill this endeavor.

[Ninjaed 526]

Ogre? Food? ME HUNGRY!! :=:

 

TVtropes is only listing tropes a character has shown, it doesn't create new content. Pinkie has suffered a somewhat miserable childhood until earning her cutie mark, there's no denying that. But you're right, episodes are created to serve the Mane 6 (and other characters), not the other way around. And the Mane 6 (and other characters) are flawed, so they'll make mistakes. Because they do, we have episodes.

 

I think I see what you mean about Luna. She could use non-angst characterisation indeed. Not as Luna the princess or Luna the former Nightmare Moon, but as simply Luna. Same applies to Celestia and some other characters. Starlight is one of them, and if she is to retain her recurring character status, it will have to be addressed sooner or later - though I've never denied this, on the contrary. I just wish for her potential to be utilised instead of remaining just that, potential.

 

No Chrysalis hunts Starlight for the whole season I fully agree with, but it won't happen anyway. After all, where would the CMC episodes be otherwise? It would quickly get old, too. The 1-2 character-building episodes à la Discord would likely be insufficient to let her develop those good traits you mentioned, but it's possible. I'd like more of course but hey. I also want more Twilight and Fluttershy. Rarity as well, and let's not forget Pinkie. And I suppose Applejack and Dashie's antics are always fun to watch.

 

Although I'm not part of the show staff, so I cannot say what their plans are or how many she'll get to play a major part in. It sure would be a letdown if she remained limited to this angst-focused character instead of being herself and finding solutions to problems together with her friends, just like any Mane 6 character would. I'm quite sure she won't be limited to just that, but if it did, that'd be bad writing and Starlight would drop in likeable-ness inevitably.

 

For the Starlight story, I did provide the fact she was the perfect link between season 5 and season 6, given their overall messages. And with the way season 6 ended, she looks like to fit to a T to the message of the new season. Kind of like a red string. It could have been done differently, it always can. But it can also be done that way, and unless proven otherwise, it's not a bad way. There are risks, but every story has risks of going south.

So if Tibia's story is bad, no better substitute provided yet. If it isn't, you've proven it's a good alternative story to Starlight's - which in turn proves the original material has good points to exploit. Not the best for your "proving Starlight's story is bad" case.

 

I've seen more neutral folks say they'd (at least partly) changed their views about Starlight with the finale. No Second Prances did a bit of that as well. Those who liked it "despite Starlight" are not exactly 'neutral', are they?

We all would have liked it better were she a different character? I can't tell if I don't know what other character. Although I can tell that what you're saying here is "anypony beside Starlight". That's not a point, it's an opinion.

[Goat-kun 2,505]

You are really bad with memes. Well, I suppose that’s not a bad thing.

You still don’t quite understand. This is not about Tibia; this is about a completely new story that could have been done with the existing cast. No Tibia, no Starlight, no friendship student character whatsoever. The possibilities would still be limitless, and they have chosen this sorry story? No one forced them and there was no requirement for it to be made in such a way, yet here we are. Mane 6 got the short end of the development stick and Starlight could have been developed into a good background character in a jiffy yet she’s still all Sunset-y. No story can neither substitute nor excuse such actions. They have used this pony as a ruse for their incompetence once, and if they try to do it again, if they try to overshadow Mane 6 again by not giving them proper development and attention, I will count on you to write rage posts alongside me. In return, if they fail to give her proper development in the way of a supporting cast member, I will lend you my keyboard.

 

Yes, some did change their opinion, but if you’re gonna play the Game of Fan Sites, go check the EQD poll for what vocal fans want to see in S07. More Starlight is on 7, 5%, beaten even by pony romance, episodes on support characters, and Rainbow Dash’s family. And the first two are adventure episodes with 12, 42% and Sunset Shimmer with 24, 12% (which is expected yet still disappointing). There are quite a few in this forum community that visit that site, so when you ask how many of our folks changed their opinion and want more of her, I’d say it’s reasonable to assume not many. It gives more legitimacy to my claim that most liked adventure aspect of the finale and didn’t give a shit about Starlight. Also, when someone stops being a hater, it doesn’t mean they automatically start caring about a character. I don’t hate Flash anymore, but he can still go and jump off a cliff for all I care. The total of votes is only 9866, so there’s that.

 

P.S: Two episodes are more than enough. Of course she can get the cameo in holyday episodes and pony events. Everyone should get a cameo in holyday episodes! Even Tirek … Poor bastard.

[Ninjaed 526]

Some I know, others I don't. But I was hungry then, and when I'm hungry I'm hungry and my tummy's is all that matters to me.

 

Hurray! I actually agree with your entire first paragraph

Well, except the middle part (sorry story and Mane 6 overshadowed) as the season itself was generous to them, premiere and finale excluded. But since you're giving away that deal at the end, I'll let it slide. Speaking of the deal, I will be disappointed if she and Sunset don't receive their due development to justify their status indeed. I'll also be disappointed if Starlight overshadows the Mane 6 - it's somewhat understandable in Sunset's case as the movies are more or less made with her as main character now. Fair deal otherwise.

 

So let me suggest a deal of my own in response to yours. Give her a chance, and I'll join you if they fail at developing her like they should. If she does get it and you still dislike her afterwards, that will be too bad but everyone has their own tastes. But do give her a chance, don't instantly tell yourself "meh Starlight is in it, I won't like it". So long as you do that and hate her because of your own tastes and not because of flawed writing or whatever, I'll be fine with it. If poor writing is involved, count me in to express my disappointment - though I'll still try and show myself supportive of the writing staff who's offered me a show I love.

 

 

PS: yeah, not hating doesn't equal liking, but I'm fine with that. If they're giving her a chance past their bad first impressions, it's more than enough. They're free to dislike her for who she is afterwards. As for the holiday episodes, Tirek represented as Father Coatmas or whatever could be amusing. "Ho! Ho! Ho! Who has been a good filly? I'm warning you though, bad fillies will get their magic sucked right out of them! Ho! Ho! Ho!"

Edited October 29, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Lil Pip 775]

I would gladly embrace a new mane member, I would gladly see her being developed, I would not care if she was the one saving the day in a finale to justify her importance, as long as she would fit in. By fitting in, I mean a new profession (farmer, baker, fashion designer, princess …) and a decent basic average girl stereotype to go along with it. You, on the other appendage, just want Starlight to shine no matter what. You want her episodes to be all about problems that fit better into an infirmary of a family doctor than into a show for little girls, and I sensed no self-doubt, no hesitation in those long posts about her traits, as if those are a positive addition by default. Human suffering and friendlessness are problems, but it is on us to discern how and when to approach them. They cannot be the main reason to do an episode or a whole freaking season. The main reason needs to be entertainment, and after five seasons, even the most clueless writer should understand how to push the envelope along with the audience.

You do contradict here also(mentioning appeal to your audience, then say they should sell it to little girls, what if starlight is like that because of girls and not your demographic who disliked it?), Starlight got some development, and what would the 7th element of harmony be called anyways, I dont even think she is more eligible than spike or discord and we don't even know what its name would be, and I doubt they'd ruin it by inserting a random 7th, this is just because of fanfics and headcannons and everyone rumored spike to be the 7th ages ago, like in fallout equestria he had the element of sacrifice which lil pip ended up having. 

 

You still don’t quite understand. This is not about Tibia; this is about a completely new story that could have been done with the existing cast. No Tibia, no Starlight, no friendship student character whatsoever. The possibilities would still be limitless,

 

Well limitless isn't the best word, theres only so many ideas circulating in a certain span of time, plus what hasbro and writers want and other physical capabilities and with characters that were already used its harder to imagine all the stacks of development, it'd take more time to be a more thorough writer, so considering all the physical limitations its no where near limitless, but a new character does help add more new dynamics(which people end up complaining about lel). People don't know what they want, other than to complain and be dissapointed, prolly because they are dissapointed with themselves because others are dissapointed with them so they feel they need to express their dissapointment on everything, like how bullies are bullied people sometimes. But thats just one possibility. 

 

And idk what sorta role Starlight would get, she is good at magic and that griffon foreshadows some onto her in a way, being good at too diverse amounts of things she will be indecisive for her role. Which is why she was getting taught from Twi for now, probably. Either way idk what it is with people assuming only the mane 6 get character development, thus she needs to be a mane 7? I mean by that logic even Luna would've been a 7th element, or Sunset Shimmer.

 

 

 No Starlight + insert pony bullshit across the season, no Chrysalis hunts Starlight for the whole season crap, no Starlight magic demonstration, and no saving the day. She gets 1-2 non-finale, unimportant, character-building episodes like Discord or CMC along ponies of choice, and that is my final offer. Do you agree?

This is honestly hilarious. 

I just think anti-starlights are upset that starlight is stealing the focus away. But thats because they are tunnel visioning onto her, and everyone LOVES Trixie(except those that hate her since her first episode which obviously are petty reasons) I think Trixie had gotten more out of the finale, why aren't people complaining about her?

 

Because its just like why people hated Discord, Angel, Trixie, etc in the past, they just need someone new to hate then they'll get over it. Simple as that.

[Goat-kun 2,505]

Hammer

One shouldn’t have quantity without quality. You can count all the minutes Mane 6 had in S06 and display the number as a sign. They deserved more memorable celebrations of their achievements that they have been striving for since S01.

 

Giving a chance to an imaginary character, especially to one that has existed for two seasons? Don’t wanna. This show is old and a change is coming one way or another. I will maintain my Flash position until the next season. Mayhap we Starlight haters shall throw a wild hunt or two, who knows. The direction H-Bro wants to take MLP as a whole shall be revealed soon enough. Perhaps then we can have another conversation with a clearer view.

 

P.S: The devil you are looking for is Krampus. Tirek could fit that role splendidly.

 

P.P.S: Becoming a student and rehabilitation as a method of punishment is a terrible idea for a fantasy setting because it doesn’t cleanse the ex-villain. You are using the Luna fan logic again. The punishment should mean something to those who hate the character or else you’ve achieved nothing. This isn’t a lesson for governmental affairs damn it. It’s not supposed to be a sterile and clinical procedure meant to strictly educate the masses. So do you want me to get over there? Cause I’ll get over there!

 

Nail

Now, now, I thought we were though all this. Trixie and Discord got their development, and even if I do dislike them, I accept them for what they offer.

 

You are writing this under an assumption that I am against a new character in general. That is false, as I am only against the likes of Starlight. My assumption is that writers have taken the easy way out and concentrated on Starlight because she is new and easy to write for since she has all of them cool angsty problems. And limitations are exactly why such a character presents problems as they are hard to develop later on because of said limitation. And if they have run out of Mane 6 stories, they should just end FIM, start something new, and stop with the half-arsed attempts at innovation.

 

As for the audience, little girls deserve to have good character. That means no crappy self-insert Brony fanfic dream ponies with tragic pasts. Starlight currently reeks of such a character, but if they have a plan to remedy that, then I will stop being a hater. Simple, isn’t it.

[Lil Pip 775]

Now, now, I thought we were though all this. Trixie and Discord got their development, and even if I do dislike them, I accept them for what they offer.

 

You are writing this under an assumption that I am against a new character in general. That is false, as I am only against the likes of Starlight. My assumption is that writers have taken the easy way out and concentrated on Starlight because she is new and easy to write for since she has all of them cool angsty problems. And limitations are exactly why such a character presents problems as they are hard to develop later on because of said limitation. And if they have run out of Mane 6 stories, they should just end FIM, start something new, and stop with the half-arsed attempts at innovation.

 

As for the audience, little girls deserve to have good character. That means no crappy self-insert Brony fanfic dream ponies with tragic pasts. Starlight currently reeks of such a character, but if they have a plan to remedy that, then I will stop being a hater. Simple, isn’t it.

Where did I imply you were against a new character in general?

 

Though you disliking trixie disc and starlight does suggest you hate reformed characters in general, thatd mean its your issue, not everyone else's.

 

Also, what parts do you dislike exactly about Starlight? Tragic past? Those can happen and provide extra conflict? What do you dislike about ti specifically, that everyone says its a mary sue thing or do you know from experience from reading mountains of fanfics itl it finally annoyed you? Because I sorta am sure you are just jumping on the bandwagon, I could be wrong hence my question but it certainly seems that way to me. Granted, her anger issues resolving was sudden, how would you know if its unrealistic or not? 

 

Oh she 'reeks' of such a character huh. Tell me how she reeks of it. Guilt alone doesn't imply it just because she is suddenly lacking aggressiveness, and her guilt is explained. So give me a reason besides that. More than one, reek is a strong word, give me at least 3 reasons, of at least one not from a finale or premiere, because obviously her villainy is going to contradict her lack of villainy, prove she is reeking. I know you can't prove she is a self-insert.

 

Also the 'now now' and little kid argument are emotional pleading arguments. Are you incapable of factually supporting why your opinion is valid, or do you think it makes you look better to behave in such a manner? Besides if you were on a moral high ground you would've just respectfully declined, not provide a retort and this 'hammer' and 'nail' stuff is an ad hominem. I could call you cranky doodle, it'd be immature but somewhat correct, but entirely pointless. In fact this just shows you only know how to make emotional arguments, not rational ones, prolly why you are making moral high ground arguments like a politician.

 

And why end fim, are you some economics and marketing expert? Do you even know their plans of attack with those premieres and finales? I don't think so.

 

'All them cool angsty problems' 'easy to write for'. It being cool or angsty just shows you hate cool things and/or angsty things, or you are whining because you aren't their primary demographic they are marketing to. Then you say girls would enjoy it being better written(more demographic oriented spat, you don't know what little girls commonly think(on average)), but thats bull, show me starlight's sales in comparison to a character introduced as long ago as her from toys of a same caliber, then we will know generally which ones are more popular with the audience.  Like same price toy, same line, same release date, recent sales information. And if it were easy to write for sounds like they are marketing properly, just not catering to you.

 

'plan to remedy that' yup you want them catering to you specifically.

[LeafFerret 3,382]

You are writing this under an assumption that I am against a new character in general. That is false, as I am only against the likes of Starlight. My assumption is that writers have taken the easy way out and concentrated on Starlight because she is new and easy to write for since she has all of them cool angsty problems. And limitations are exactly why such a character presents problems as they are hard to develop later on because of said limitation. And if they have run out of Mane 6 stories, they should just end FIM, start something new, and stop with the half-arsed attempts at innovation.

Well the show is called "Friendship is Magic", nowhere does it say it has to be exclusively be focused on the Mane 6, if the writers feel that they should have a new cast in the show then that's their decision, I feel that unless the Mane 6 evolve from what they are doing, then I don't see why we shouldn't have new main characters in the show. I think we should let them develop with the Mane 6 before they decide that they can do things on their own.

[Ninjaed 526]

Not a nail.

 

Celebrations? It's not over yet, you know? The Mane 6 still has a long way to go, and I'll be there to watch them and cheer them on. Don't try to celebrate too early

 

For the next season thing though, we are agreed. Our debate had always been limited by "what will happen in season 7" (and the future seasons as well). Still, it looks like you're not entirely against the idea of changing your view if given proper reason to, so I suppose that's enough for me for now.

 

Lot of stuff, now I know what others feel like when reading these walls of text of mine... THEY WANT MOAR!! :=:

 

To be fair, I'll say likes and dislikes don't answer to logic but emotions. That's why I never pressed those emotional arguments. Although I do have to agree there were more than a few logical fallacies but my stance is to let them slide and focus on the others. Don't know if I managed to though

 

The self-insert I never agreed with, especially since she's only friends with Twilight and is more shunned by the Mane 5 than anything (in Every Little Thing She Does, it was quite clear they were rather uneasy with her, not behaving naturally at all - makes sense though, you don't become BFFs over night).

 

The angsty one though, after being familiar with several cartoons/games/anime/etc, starts to ring alarm bells inside one's head. It's an easy trope to exploit to make a character appear sympathetic, but it's a pitfall as well, leading to characters you feel little connection with when poorly used. I didn't have those bells because Starlight's is perfectly understandable and I've never thought of her angst as a permanent focus, but Goat-kun fears they haven't thought it completely through, leaving her "bland" behind. I don't agree with this, but season 7 is not out yet so I cannot disprove him beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

All that being said, looking forward to what points you'll bring Lil Pip   I'll be "stepping out" some to let you and others express their opinions and POVs.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Goat-kun 2,505]

You’re reading way much into this. I’m just using shit that pops into my mind. But if you don’t like it, I’ll be using “snip”.

I think you are aware that it’s nearly impossible to prove something is a Mary Sue in such an argument. And I don’t dislike Trixie and Discord because they are reformed. I just don’t like their personalities. Last time I checked, that is not a crime nor does it inhibit one’s assessment of their value.

 

How she reeks of it: her situation has been used as a focus point of the season without giving her any development that is compatible with other characters, redeemed or otherwise. She has been left without anything that could make her useful in a slice of life episode that doesn’t address problems pertaining to her specific redemption story, and due to limitations of time and resources of FIM, such a character will likely remain vague till the end or demand lots of extra attention.

 

I cannot show you her sales, but you can look up what sells in little girls department yourself. Celestia, for instance, has been pretty much useless for the past seasons, and so was Cadence. They both have their own castles in the world of toys. Guess they sell despite being very stereotypical princesses without cool Brony-approved stories behind them. Can you claim the same for Luna? Starlight? Have you seen Frozen? There is a tragic past as is in nearly all of princess stories, but Elsa ain’t exactly an edgy recluse. With that in mind, someone like Starlight is better suited for your run-of-the-mill shonen anime than a happy go lucky show that is FIM. So I’m not accusing Starlight because she’s not catering to me; I’m accusing writers because she is trying to do just that.

 

So tell me how exactly would you make this show cater to me specifically? Well, you can start by introducing Lovecraftian Mythos and a complicated magic rulebook. That would surely piqué my interest. And if you want more info on what I like, feel free to ask. I’m looking forward to Goat-kun’s version of FIM.

 

Wenjadanlaweilaya!

If the writers feel they need a new cast, they should make a new show and give Mane 6 a proper last hurrah. That I would not mind.

[Lil Pip 775]

...

lol the they want moar thing, naw I'm just an aggressive analyst idc if people don't like it. Its nice when people do like it though but I don't expect it or do it for that, unless its subconsciously. Usually a brohoof doesn't tell me if people find it curious, or agree with it, it doesn't tell me the difference. I would rather people be curious/interested though thats more of a compliment than agreeing. Agreeing could be random chance, a non-intellectual might agree with me for instance, and be wrong on many fronts and agree with me for the wrong reasons etc. Being curious displays critical thinking skills, consideration.

 

 

I think you are aware that it’s nearly impossible to prove something is a Mary Sue in such an argument. And I don’t dislike Trixie and Discord because they are reformed. I just don’t like their personalities. Last time I checked, that is not a crime nor does it inhibit one’s assessment of their value.

 

How she reeks of it: her situation has been used as a focus point of the season without giving her any development that is compatible with other characters, redeemed or otherwise. She has been left without anything that could make her useful in a slice of life episode that doesn’t address problems pertaining to her specific redemption story, and due to limitations of time and resources of FIM, such a character will likely remain vague till the end or demand lots of extra attention.

 

I cannot show you her sales, but you can look up what sells in little girls department yourself. Celestia, for instance, has been pretty much useless for the past seasons, and so was Cadence. They both have their own castles in the world of toys. Guess they sell despite being very stereotypical princesses without cool Brony-approved stories behind them. Can you claim the same for Luna? Starlight? Have you seen Frozen? There is a tragic past as is in nearly all of princess stories, but Elsa ain’t exactly an edgy recluse. With that in mind, someone like Starlight is better suited for your run-of-the-mill shonen anime than a happy go lucky show that is FIM. So I’m not accusing Starlight because she’s not catering to me; I’m accusing writers because she is trying to do just that.

 

So tell me how exactly would you make this show cater to me specifically? Well, you can start by introducing Lovecraftian Mythos and a complicated magic rulebook. That would surely piqué my interest. And if you want more info on what I like, feel free to ask. I’m looking forward to Goat-kun’s version of FIM.

 

If the writers feel they need a new cast, they should make a new show and give Mane 6 a proper last hurrah. That I would not mind.

No I believe everything can be argued and understood, even if most disagree with me, I think its possible to support the idea she is a mary sue. And so far her unique character developments do contradict the idea of her being a mary sue, and the way you summed her up as a mary sue sounded generalized, like it was a bandwagon opinion and not something you considered might be wrong.

 

Fair enough, but I still do not know if your opinion has changed at all when they exhibit new traits or if you got stuck on the first impression of their personalities, so you could at least recognize if your opinion of them changed at all since first impression. Which means it could subconsciously or indirectly be why, they were made to be disliked a bit, but that part of it they did move on from, but you haven't. So thats why its easier for me to assume its you and not the show. And inb4 its just an opinion, I am just as critical of my own opinions because i think facts>opinions. Not to confuse taste and opinion, but some taste is possible to be more informed, like a musician not experimenting vs a person only listening to rap and death metal vs someone who enjoys a wide variety of music. I think everything is understandable.

 

Ok I get the extra attention argument, so you are afraid your favorite characters are going to be left out more and more? But things change, it doesn't matter what we think it matters what the numbers say and where they decide to take it. If Trixie and Discord and a changeling did good, thats because its exploring more themes than just pegasi unicorn earth pony. It helps fill the world in more, so just sticking to same old same old seems unprogressive to me. And people can die without attaining self-actualization, so character development for the mane 6 might be more exhausted currently. 

 

Yeah I saw frozen, the toilet shape of a snowman is cringy and appealing to the fruedian psychology of little girls(and maybe boys). But the love at first sight thing is so cliche I'm glad it failed, they need to know they should have options, now to address in the future the lesson of more expensive marriages = higher rates of divorce.

 

Hey subconsciously/indirectly appealing to have the show how you want =/= if you had creative rights over the whole thing. Girls will like starlight because she uses ponies like how little girls can have them behave, then they did a creepy take on it to make it more memorable and let girls know its bad to not treat them like people, but still left it open for Starlight to be similar in the future(because new little girls watching the show might need similar lessons to relate to in the future, or if they don't get it). I think Starlight is childish, and thats why she can appeal to girls, and you automatically assume its for bronies. You have the claims, you support them, thats why I mentioned evidence, because as far as I can tell girls would like Starlight, I cannot just agree with you. (which is the point of discussion I think, to resolve differences(or try to, including understanding not just 'winning' as some view it as, both sides knowing they might be wrong is usually nice), otherwise its just an opinion fest and no real conversation)

Edited October 30, 2016 by Lil Pip

[Goat-kun 2,505]

Giggity!

You saw Frozen and think it’s trash while criticizing me that I don’t understand the audience? And then you want to prove to me that a Mary Sue can be accurately and objectively defined in this set of circumstances while at the same time thinking that I marked Starlight as such a character? Furthermore, you’re accusing me of failure to provide hard evidence in the same paragraph where you write why you think Starlight is great. Here’s your problem: you’re projecting too much.

 

There exists a plethora of redeemed and potentially redeemable villains that I like. You know why? They offer a completely new perspective, not a repeat of a story with a different character, but a new way of interacting with the imaginary world. It is a cheat to introduce a new character and new lore at the same time which should have been greatly appreciated in a model that is constantly fighting for minutes. The only thing Starlight does in an episode is being a vehicle for one “friendship so hard” lesson or the other. She was created as a walking, talking lessons dispenser and not as a stereotype that can provide lessons based on which kind of ordinary gal type she represents. Getting into the bad equality mindset and going on a vengeance spree because of losing a friend is not an ordinary gal stereotype. What does she do for a living? Study friendship? We had that already. What is her calling? Magic! We had that too. Oh, but she is important cause her lessons, right. Like dealing with loss of friendship has never been addressed or could have never been addressed in a way that doesn’t call for four two-parters. Waste not, want not, I say.

 

Yes, this is all subjective hate directed at such approach. How could it not be? None of us possesses hard data. So now that we have exhausted all reason, let us raise our chalices to the future, and to the perpetual butthurt! My mind is ready.