Twilight's Teaching Method

[KH7672 1,604]

I've had this nagging feelimg since"Celestial Advice" with these parallels between Twilight and Celestia. Finally it hit me with Starlight being slightly defiant in "Mirror Magic," Twilight was never like Celestia as a teacher or mentor. No matter how much the comparisons were made in the show, I find Twilight was actually teaching her student the way SHE taught herself.

Celestia had Twilight seek out friendship lessons and grow her relationships herself, which she confortably did by making schedules, lists, and basically hanging around her friends looking for lessons (i.e. Season 1). That is exactly the teaching method she imposed on Starlight. Twilight never had Starlight go out in the world and socialize, instead she was handed ways to socialize easily and effectively. And when she was told to socialize it was always with stress like an assignment. (A similar viewpoint she had in "Lesson Zero"). That was until the Season 6 finale and Season 7 (albeit with Twilight still breathing down her neck one time) when Starlight finally did things on her own and was not only able to solve problems but explore more and build herself up like in Mirror Magic. I believe Twilight's teaching method could be partially to blame for some grievances toward Starlight.

[Jeric 46,873]

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

I believe Twilight's teaching method could be partially to blame for some grievances toward Starlight.

You mean fan grievances? The character's seem to be cool with her. I think that the fan grievances have some truth to them in that they all focused around her sudden change, underwhelming motivation to form her erstwhile ideology, and a tendency for see her flaws as traits incompatible with friendship. These aren't views I personally hold as she is one of my favorites these days ... but those reasons are sound platforms for some to suggest that can't appreciate her character. Twilight's approach has had mixed results, yes ... but that isn't the main reason I've heard for disliking her. It would actually be the weakest argument if it was because I have some minor gripes with Celestia's teaching method -- though you can't argue with results I suppose. 

[Goat-kun 2,530]

2 hours ago, KH7672 said:

 I believe Twilight's teaching method could be partially to blame for some grievances toward Starlight.

It's ALL about Starlight, huh? Here's your grievance problem. See, some of us actually wanted to see Twilight advance as a teacher, but she was made into a useless background schmuck to elevate Starlight instead. Where you see Starlight as good character I see our incompetent writers who should start writing better stories for Twilight and other Mane members when it comes to mentoring business, world-changing events, and things in general. When these things are achieved within the show DESPITE Starlight I won't give a shit what she does. Good day sir.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Celestia has had a bit longer to pick up wisdom

Celly is an extrovert, and did try to impose how an extrovert makes friends on Twi (that is, she just set up a situation where she would HAVE to interact with the five of them, and assumed that would do the trick)

Twilight tried to impose how an introvert makes friends on Starlight, and it went badly; introverts make lists and plans and targets so that they can feel in control of the process; having someone ELSE make lists and plans and targets for you just makes you feel less in control, and makes things harder. Luckily, Starlight isn't another introvert, so it was just unnecessary and in the way, rather than inhibiting, but.. yeah.

The other core ponies did better in that they took her and introduced her around, which for an extrovert is pretty much all you need to do; OK, so Starlight messed it up herself there, by being excessively Starlight, but they had the right idea.  In the end, Starlight managed to bond with a pony she felt she had things in common with despite the above though, so.. yeah.

The other real consideration is that Starlight is messed up. I mean, really REALLY messed up. She is clearly at most an ambivert, despite various MBTI assessments trying to fit her into the "leader" box. She found it hard to make friends as a filly (usually an introvert trait) but was happy with one deep attachment to Sunburst (again, same trait) and when Sunburst left and never looked back, it left Starlight traumatized; She has massive anxiety and abandonment issues stemming from that one incident; had Sunburst handled it differently, I suspect they would now be happily married and providing advanced magic-based services in Canterlot by now.

But that isn't the Starlight we have, and the Starlight we have is broken. Having been forced to confront the reality of the consequences of her actions, her pretense to herself that she was just making things better was stripped away and she was literally left with nothing; she went into the map chamber humbled and lost, with a past she was ashamed of and no future, expecting to have to attone for what she did but with no punishment possibly even coming close to what had already been inflicted on her by Twilight in that moment of realization. You are clearly meant to feel sorry for her, and you should; despite her doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, her actions are understandable in the light of the hurt she felt - but you can see that the trauma of having all her self-justifications for that ripped away is world-shattering. It is a testament to her inner strength that she isn't just curled in a ball sobbing at this point, but instead she is empty and resigned to her fate.

But of course this isn't what happens. Instead, Twilight offers her a clean start - a do over, a chance to begin again with support and help from her and her team, a room in a palace, a recognized position as the student of the Princess of Friendship, and everything that goes with that.  At that time, at that point, that is a gift beyond price - although one she would, just one week earlier, have rejected it immediately.  It isn't the counseling she really needs, but it is enough; with that foundation, she can rebuild herself

With her attempts at friendship lessons subsequent to that, Twilight has pretty much consistently messed up. But that doesn't matter - the framework she has put in place to support Starlight as she rebuilds her life is sturdy, and is now the foundation of that new life; everything else is window dressing.

Spoiler

Looking at S7, I have a couple more thoughts

First, when her graduation threatens change to that framework, it triggers an anxiety attack in Starlight - thankfully, Twilight is able to reassure her that it is not in danger, not only verbally, but by providing a mirror designed to fit exactly into her existing space at the castle.

And second, the comment by Luna on Celestia's reaction to the pancakes may have had a second meaning - that Celestia's reassurance to Starlight that she made the right call may not have been entirely honest, but what Celestia knew Starlight needed to hear.

Thoughts?

I think, now that Starlight has graduated though, Twi could do with, first, getting some actual teaching training (by shadowing some teachers at Celestia's school) and second, taking on a few young fillies from that school at her own castle for advanced training - Starlight could help there too, as could Sunburst.  Journeyman Starlight

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Would work well for Hasbro also - just think, THREE different classroom sets to sell (Sunburst could be teaching magical theory, with more practical lessons from Twi and Star) and a bunch of student ponies with a smattering of blankflanks for the cmc to help...

[KH7672 1,604]

Wow as my first topic this is such a fun experience!

3 hours ago, Jeric said:

You mean fan grievances? The character's seem to be cool with her. I think that the fan grievances have some truth to them in that they all focused around her sudden change, underwhelming motivation to form her erstwhile ideology, and a tendency for see her flaws as traits incompatible with friendship. These aren't views I personally hold as she is one of my favorites these days ... but those reasons are sound platforms for some to suggest that can't appreciate her character. 

As an actual moderate Starlight fan myself (fourth favorite character) I wasn't even trying to invoke criticism on those that don't like her. In fact I even have some grievances on episodes like NSP and ELTSD. But I'm weird like that in that characters or episodes that create such mixed emotions actually get me more invested. Just trying to find an in universe reason for her struggles in learning.

2 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

With her attempts at friendship lessons subsequent to that, Twilight has pretty much consistently messed up. But that doesn't matter - the framework she has put in place to support Starlight as she rebuilds her life is sturdy, and is now the foundation of that new life; everything else is window dressing.

  Reveal hidden contents

Looking at S7, I have a couple more thoughts

First, when her graduation threatens change to that framework, it triggers an anxiety attack in Starlight - thankfully, Twilight is able to reassure her that it is not in danger, not only verbally, but by providing a mirror designed to fit exactly into her existing space at the castle.

And second, the comment by Luna on Celestia's reaction to the pancakes may have had a second meaning - that Celestia's reassurance to Starlight that she made the right call may not have been entirely honest, but what Celestia knew Starlight needed to hear.

Thoughts?

I think, now that Starlight has graduated though, Twi could do with, first, getting some actual teaching training (by shadowing some teachers at Celestia's school) and second, taking on a few young fillies from that school at her own castle for advanced training - Starlight could help there too, as could Sunburst.  Journeyman Starlight

That idea with framework in place is exactly why I've enjoyed the direction Season 7 has taken for her. I loved that she didn't leave after graduating because that is exactly the result Twilight's teaching method would create. A strong physical attachment to the life layed out for Starlight with no strong desire to change (yet hopefully) similar to relationship with Sunburst as a filly. I'm glad that she did graduate away from these methods because now she feels like an actual member of the community. No more stressing from pressure of planned interaction, she can just come and go as she pleases not feeling tied down to the castle and Twilight's teaching, used wonderfully in "Mirror Magic."

As for your stance on reassurance, I'm glad this is something the characters have taken note on as I've seen that's the best mindset to approach her with. From her (what does TV tropes call it....Heel-Faced Turn) that reassurance that she will no longer face the world unknowingly and alone is exactly why I found it believable. Then up to her interactions with Celestia reassurance is the best thing for her. It doesn't need to be assurance in that she has done no wrong but something to say there is no need to stress just take life as it is because no matter the problems you've got this.....Right, Sunset?

[CypherHoof 26,483]

14 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

because no matter the problems you've got this.....Right, Sunset?

Sudden flashback there, for some reason I read that in a Gloriosa voice

Seriously though, flawed characters and character development are part of what make the MLP world grow. Twi was and is a flawed character, pushed into a role she has no natural aptitude for, but struggling to do her best, and driven at least partially by not wanting to let Celestia down. She fails sometimes (although her failure with Discord for example was clearly compensated for by how wildly successful Fluttershy was; team victories are more common than Twi victories and perhaps that is part of the point) and on the one occasion she was close to giving up, Celestia managed to pull her back from the brink by resending her own letters back to her.

Twi's failures as a teacher (Not just with Starlight, but with the young fillies at the school and at the wonderbolts academy) are understandable, but Twi accepting that and not studying hard to rectify them is not - I would have expected Twi to have a stack of books taller than she is on teaching methods by now, although how much she will learn is questionable; teaching isn't easily learned from books, it is a very practical skill.

Regarding Starlight vs Sunset, there are SOME parallels there, but surprisingly few once you drill down into the story we have seen so far.

Sunset's own fall was pretty shallow. Yeah, she Zombied the entire school to try and take over Equestria, but that was for a handful of minutes, before Team TeenFriendclone used Twi's usual Multicoloured Bitchslap of Harmony to set things to right in the approved MLP manner; by the time Sunset was though Tasting the Rainbow, she was somewhat disheveled, in a hole in the ground, and all her hard work had been changed back again.  Her own memories of the subsequent events (as seen in the song) differ a little from what is portrayed in the movies, but only in fine detail - She was shunned by the understandably upset students, even those she had previously considered friends, but the rainbooms give her the support and encouragement she needed to become a better person, and over subsequent movies she both adds her own power to theirs, and gradually evolves into their team leader (always deferring to Pony Twi of course, but Pony Twi is seldom around to affect matters)

Starlight by contrast fell a great deal further; she literally destroyed the whole of Equestria in her revenge against Twilight, who was completely unable to stop her in the absence of said Magical Bitchslap Power, but in the end was able to convince her that her revenge was not worth the cost.  Given her fall and redemption are in the main show though, rather than the spinoff, we get to see much more of how she grows into her new life and the trials she faces, climaxing with the fate of all Equestria again squarely on her (unwilling and cringing) shoulders, with the rather unlikely assistance of the chaotic but powerful Discord (sans powers, of course), the self-obsessed and self-promoting Trixie, and the confused but eager to help Thorax. There is clearly, and always, an air gap between Team Friendship and Starlight; her graduation apparently hasn't fixed this, but we will have to see what happens in subsequent episodes I guess.

[KH7672 1,604]

2 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Regarding Starlight vs Sunset, there are SOME parallels there, but surprisingly few once you drill down into the story we have seen so far.

Oh boy is that a phrase I'm used to hearing (long story). That ending to my last reply was actually an allusion to Starlight's lesson in "Mirror Magic."

Trust me, I've never needed convincing these two are different characters. I've seen people around the Internet saying they are "Sunset fans who like Starlight" in regards to who they like more but still enjoy the latter. Well I'm definitely a "Starlight fan who likes Sunset." No matter how much praise I have for Starlight I never want to use it to downplay Sunset, because I enjoy them as two different characters, not a clone of one that came before or after the other. Their reformations were handled different, their personalities are different, and of course their friendship learning methods were different.

[cmarston1 5,962]

Well I can't really argue that Twilight's teaching methods for Starlight have been that great.

[Thrond 3,266]

16 hours ago, KH7672 said:

I believe Twilight's teaching method could be partially to blame for some grievances toward Starlight.

Starlight's worst habits seem to almost always arise when extra stress is put on her, so you might be on to something, at least as far as that specific grievance. Unfortunately, that's the least of my issues, and it'd probably be something I like about her if I didn't find her so uninteresting, if her appearances were less conspicuous, and if the world were a little more wary of her. Plus, I can't really blame Twilight for Starlight's actions, because the unhealthy ways Starlight deals with stress are all her own problem. 

It can be seen that Starlight generally gets along better when Twilight's not breathing down her neck, as we can see in "Rock Solid Friendship" and, to a lesser extent, "No Second Prances." Twilight still has a lot to learn about being a mentor (and it's ludicrous that we don't get to see her struggling with it more), but then again, even when Starlight's on her own, she puts others at risk, like in "All Bottled Up." 

Personally, I think Starlight needs (or at least needed) guidance, and that's why Twilight & co. are often so patient with her. In this case, I'm not sure how much a Celestia-style hands-off approach would have helped; Starlight might have just gone off, gotten herself into trouble, and inadvertently hurt someone simply because she didn't know any better. But Twilight's season 6 approach did put too much pressure on her, and was probably to constrained for its own good. What might have been better was if Twilight had let Starlight loose, but with some degree of supervision, only stepping in when Starlight starts acting out. Then again, I guess what she's doing now is working, since Starlight's been a lot better lately. I don't think she's grown nearly as much as the show seems to want me to believe, but she has grown, so Twilight's method must be working. 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 42,026]

While it definitely can put up to the fact that Twilight is certainly new at being a teacher for someone, I simply could not like the fact that a lot of season 6 was making Twilight look stupid to put Starlight's character up higher and higher. They constantly had Twilight be wrong just for Starlight to later be right. That entire idea is one I hate and that is one of the original reasons why I could not like Starlight at all at first. They were basically making one character look worse to make another look good.

[KH7672 1,604]

56 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

While it definitely can put up to the fact that Twilight is certainly new at being a teacher for someone, I simply could not like the fact that a lot of season 6 was making Twilight look stupid to put Starlight's character up higher and higher. They constantly had Twilight be wrong just for Starlight to later be right. That entire idea is one I hate and that is one of the original reasons why I could not like Starlight at all at first. They were basically making one character look worse to make another look good.

I'm curious about this "Twilight look stupid" opinion you have. I'm guessing you're talking about No Second Prances and I have my thoughts on it as well. But as for what I was bringing up about her teaching method, I think it's VERY in character that she teaches this way. She just never realized it wasn't helping too much, which again is in character. Unlike TT123, where Rainbow Dash outright says this method doesn't work for her, Starlight has given no objections. As seen in ELTSD she enjoys the rigorous scheduled method when it comes to magic lessons but not so much when it comes to the friendship lessons. Unlike Rainbow where her future depended on learning correctly, Starlight is perfectly content at focusing on magic more rather than friendship lessons and by ignoring them she would never be able to realize this kind of method isn't working for her.

[Hierok 11,833]

I think Twilight does fine, but she should let Starlight take her own decisions.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

6 hours ago, Kyoshi said:

While it definitely can put up to the fact that Twilight is certainly new at being a teacher for someone, I simply could not like the fact that a lot of season 6 was making Twilight look stupid to put Starlight's character up higher and higher. They constantly had Twilight be wrong just for Starlight to later be right. That entire idea is one I hate and that is one of the original reasons why I could not like Starlight at all at first. They were basically making one character look worse to make another look good.

I can see that. The idea that Twi continuously messes up and doesn't immediately dive into the library trying to find how to fix that doesn't feel right. I mean, this is the same Twi whose first reaction to "you are now an alicorn princess" was "is there a book about how to do that I should read?"