S07:E14 - Fame and Misfortune

[Ganondox 899]

2 hours ago, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

No art can be objectively bad, like you draw a singular line, then compare it to a Dali painting. One is objectively worse. Or like you draw a sandwich just a sandwich then say its representative of something entirely unrelated no one could have figured it out on their own.

Overall we can see from the votes above the episode had more hits than misses. So it has more enjoyment than unenjoyment. Which means it accomplished a bit of its purpose, appeal to a demographic. Some shows can't even do that.

Art can be objectively good or bad, but it depends on how you define good and bad. Popularity is one way to define it, but I prefer Tolstoy's (it was Tolstoy, right?) definition. 

5 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Yup. AlexanderThrond pointed that out a couple of hours ago, which leaves me wondering why Flutters was so neglected?

Zeph is still a jerk of course, but less of a one if he was too young to be responsible...

They just have different personalities, Fluttershy was neglected because she was less assertive, not out of any ill will. 

12 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

A reasonable doubt, wouldn't you agree? Starlight was not the driving force but a passive bystander with but a few token duties separating her from a pot plant. The audience themselves could have filled that role. Anything could have filled that role, including Spike. It's not the involvement with the Journal that matters but that he would not be affected by the crowd the same way as Mane 6 and could thus still serve as the detached dragon on Twilight's back commenting on the situation. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

You can make all the arguments about what-if that you want, but the fact is Starlight is in the episode, Spike is not, and you have no evidence to support your claim that they replaced Spike with Starlight, so effectively you're using Spike as a stand-in for Starlight. I'm starting to think they left out Spike on purpose as the cruelest metajoke. 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

2 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

Art can be objectively good or bad, but it depends on how you define good and bad. Popularity is one way to define it, but I prefer Tolstoy's (it was Tolstoy, right?) definition. 

They just have different personalities, Fluttershy was neglected because she was less assertive, not out of any ill will. 

Not that. She was a young filly still in school, was being bullied, was clearly having issues with her flying that went uncorrected, and then fell off a cloud, falling to what could reasonably be considered her death.... and nobody even came down to see if she managed to land safely.  Clearly there are some major problems there.

[Ganondox 899]

7 hours ago, Jeric said:

Eh. Pollack kinda represents that, and I don't think it's fair to say it's objectively bad. In fact, some famous Expressionist art can't be pinned down to what the artist was hoping to convey. It's occasionally the point. 

In this episode, during the song, there were moments that the mouth animations didn't sync right. That's an example of bad technique that could be seen as objectively bad. 

Jackson Pollock is incredible. One thing that you don't get just from looking at his paintings is that he was extremely talented, and his paintings technique was utterly technique. In order to understand Pollock, you need to stop thinking of a painting as a picture, and instead as just a pile of painting. What his paintings are is a fossil, they are a record of the complex movements his hand made. That being said, some of his paintings are simply beautiful. 

4 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Not that. She was a young filly still in school, was being bullied, was clearly having issues with her flying that went uncorrected, and then fell off a cloud, falling to what could reasonably be considered her death.... and nobody even came down to see if she managed to land safely.  Clearly there are some major problems there.

Her parents weren't present for any of those events, and children can be jerks. I don't quite get what you're getting at. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Ganondox

[CypherHoof 26,482]

13 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

Her parents weren't present for any of those events, and children can be jerks. I don't quite get what you're getting at. 

All those come under the heading of "parental responsibility" - they are supposed to either be there for her, or ensure somepony else is, until she is old enough to be legally responsible for her own well being.

[Truffles 2,033]

54 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

And how that you know he was? The point is that the only reason Starlight can fill the role she did is because she wasn't in the journal, she didn't even know it existed. They could have given a "different" role to Spike and reshaped the episode around that, but they didn't. 

No, you can't just remove Starlight, her outside perspective was the driving force behind all the changes. Of course they could rework the episode to not include her, but they didn't. 

While I agree Starlight was a good match for this episode, it is possible her role was originally meant for Spike. My understanding is M.A. Larson apparently wrote his episode quite a while ago, and if that is the case, then Starlight wouldn't have been part of the cast yet. So either she replaced Spike's role or the story editors simply added her in from scratch.

[Phirun Natela 77]

The three-year-old girl ran down the beach as the kite flew behind her.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Phirun Natela

[takai 1,060]

Stellar episode. Well, except for the very end. Wasn't a fan of how they shrugged off the angry crowd outside. But despite that one flaw, I really liked this one. I really like the concept of sharing their lessons and adventures with the world. Clearly this whole episode was a reference to the fanbase's numerous complaints about.... everything.

The song was fantastic though. It's the first song in a while that I really dug. I also enjoyed the lesson and Twilight's speech, definitely one of the seasons best.

[Ganondox 899]

On 2017-08-13 at 11:16 PM, CypherHoof said:

All those come under the heading of "parental responsibility" - they are supposed to either be there for her, or ensure somepony else is, until she is old enough to be legally responsible for her own well being.

They can't do anything about it if they weren't aware anything was wrong, it's a pretty common problem. Do you really think parents know all the problems their kids are going through?

On 2017-08-13 at 11:37 PM, Phirun Natela said:

Obviously, yes. Jeez, if you think that's an actual insult you need to get some thicker skin. 

 

 

Thank you for proving my point. 

On 2017-08-13 at 11:21 PM, Truffles said:

While I agree Starlight was a good match for this episode, it is possible her role was originally meant for Spike. My understanding is M.A. Larson apparently wrote his episode quite a while ago, and if that is the case, then Starlight wouldn't have been part of the cast yet. So either she replaced Spike's role or the story editors simply added her in from scratch.

I don't think the episode was fleshed out enough at that point for the role to have even existed. 

[Steve Piranha 29,415]

3 hours ago, Hierok said:

Yeah, but I think they are there, but not so many. 

They are still unusually quiet though

 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

2 hours ago, Ganondox said:

Art can be objectively good or bad, but it depends on how you define good and bad. Popularity is one way to define it, but I prefer Tolstoy's (it was Tolstoy, right?) definition. 

They just have different personalities, Fluttershy was neglected because she was less assertive, not out of any ill will. 

You can make all the arguments about what-if that you want, but the fact is Starlight is in the episode, Spike is not, and you have no evidence to support your claim that they replaced Spike with Starlight, so effectively you're using Spike as a stand-in for Starlight. I'm starting to think they left out Spike on purpose as the cruelest metajoke. 

Wait-await-wait, you think I hate the episode? You think I got my jimmies rustled cause of this rochade?  You've pegged me all wrong! Starlight being Celestia'd into a pot plant is right down my alley. That Spike comment is more of a joke than a serious assessment, but I stayed cause I like to debate such things

But seriously, I still think Spike would be better

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Goat-kun

[Phirun Natela 77]

He's in a boy band which doesn't make much sense for a snake.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Phirun Natela

[Ganondorf8 11,273]

I finally got around to watching this episode and I would say that it was, okay, at best. Certainly not one of the better episodes of season seven but it wasn't terrible by any means. I definitely loved the various expressions that were on display and I did notice numerous references to other episodes written by M.A. Larson so it was cool how they tied those in with the premise here. I was surprised to see a song come out of left field here since nothing was leading up to it but I felt the conclusion wasn't all that good in that it felt rushes and unresolved.

[PacificGreen 1,163]

17 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

But I don't think that a lot of the fandom criticisms or stereotypes alluded to in the episode are inherently ridiculous, worthy only of being laughed at. And I also don't think that the analogies really work between the ponies' behavior in the episode and fandom behavior; in fact, it seems to me that those analogies make out members of the fandom to be much worse than many of them would seem to actually be. And that feeds into my final big issue with this episode, namely, that I fear that this episode will just fuel more chastising, ridiculing, and ganging up on others in the fandom who express criticism or minority opinions about the show.

As mentioned above, one issue I have with this episode is that I don't think the analogies really work between the behavior of the residents of Equestria and the (supposed) behavior of people in the fandom. There is a meaningful difference between people in real life criticizing or getting too wrapped up in a fictional cartoon and ponies harassing and being jerks toward the Mane Six themselves. To give a couple of examples, I don't buy that ponies ganging up on Fluttershy and demanding to know why she seems to have to learn the same lesson over and over is equivalent to fans of the show asking why Fluttershy, a fictional character on the show, seems to have to learn the same lesson over and over. I also don't buy that ponies complaining about the character development of the Mane Six in stories in the Friendship Journal, which describes actual events happening to actual ponies in the world of Equestria, is equivalent to fans of a fictional cartoon criticizing the development of characters in that cartoon. The problem I have is that this implied comparison between ponies' behavior in this episode and certain fandom behaviors is that the comparison makes members of the fandom seem significantly worse than I would think many of them actually are. I wouldn't assume that fans who complain about characters seeming to relearn the same lessons or who complain about character development would harass or be jerks toward other people in real life going through similar lessons or development. I would guess that many, if not most, such people are aware that they're criticizing characters in or episodes of a fictional cartoon, and that they would be more tactful or considerate in talking about the behavior of actual people, particularly to those people's faces.

I think you articulated my biggest complaint with this episode better than I could have.

I know some people can be very vocal about their opinions regarding the show (I've expressed on more than one occasion my dislike for the characterization and plot in "Princess Spike" for instance). And I think there are good rebuttals to common criticisms of the show- the Fluttershy one is a good example. People criticize her for often falling back to her shy, unassertive self, or her lack of consistency, but, as she pointed out, can anyone really say that they immediately started behaving better after learning a lesson and never lapsed back to their former tendencies? There are some lessons in life you have to go through more than once.

So do I think it's important to keep in mind that these ponies aren't perfect and address these complaints? Of course. That doesn't change the fact, however, that these are still legitimate complaints to be made against characters. I don't think I can really fault people for not liking Rarity because they think she's shallow (heck, pre-season 4, that's what I thought about her, even though I didn't really dislike her or anything), or pointing out that they don't like Fluttershy because she too often goes back to being a doormat. As long as those assertions are reasonable and grounded in at least some evidence, and the critics pointing out such things are not being overly rude, they have a right to think what they do. However, the biggest problem with the ep was that it seemed to be saying "Those people are a**holes".

And I think it's because of what you pointed out- that making the analogy between fans harshly (but perhaps fairly) criticizing a show and its characters, and townsponies trashing their fellow ponies, kinda fell flat. They're not really the same situation. I feel like that comparison kinda would hurt the case for the lesson they were probably intending to go for.

That criticism aside, I feel like Toola Roola and Coconut Cream being brought in at the end gave the ep a more nuanced moral however, rather than just "Yeah, we know we're not perfect, now shut up about it." My favorite way of interpreting this episode is that it's kind of a lesson to both the mane characters and the fans- kind of like a lesson for the show staff and the pony fans:

1. The characters we know and love aren't perfect, and that's what exactly what makes their stories so interesting and special.

2. There will always be people who criticize you or the things you do, and that's fine. You may not be able to change their opinion of you, but you can change how you let those opinions affect you.

3. If your story genuinely inspires even one person (or group of people) to be better people, that's where the real reward is.

 

[Dowlphin 463]

First, the theme of the episode seemed excessive in the execution. But it's not exactly rare that the writers do that and go all the way, like here with what amounts to mass insanity, making one wonder why the mane 6's popularity never seemed to have been received like this before the book publishing.

Second, the episode obviously conveys the point that if you adress the masses, better not let them know you too well and let you not know them too well. It's not desirable and not good, but sometimes the world can be tough as nails. But these situations are exactly where one has to decide to make an effort, to not just swim with the current, because the water stinks. Identify what is your sphere of responsibility and what is others and then avoid overextending. Going out of your way is commendable, but responses to that should be taken as indicators of whether it is appreciated.

Which leads me to the third point: This episode could almost be seen as a critique of the MLP fandom (but also of society and fandoms in general). And it is also how I feel about it sometimes. People have all kinds of reasons for liking the show, but the probably most valuable and most-needed part is often not really taken to heart. Or mind, if you will. Actually making an effort to make the spirit of Equestria come to life not just in easy but especially also in testing times, through honing character, I often felt that missing, including after my observations and experiences at conventions. In spiritual lingo one would say "bliss junkies".

The eventual song number took me a minute to thaw to because it was so bluntly thrown against the problem, and I could predict the (non)reaction to it (At one point I cynically thought that after it the rabble would probably ask for free concert tickets.), but it was a really nice, uplifting piece whose lyrics at times also felt to me like adressing the fandom. Felt a bit like a celebratory review to a last season actually, like a looking back at a long journey. Which made it even more touching. They also contained some headscratchers though. Do they really like what's flawed about people or do they have an easy time overlooking it when willingness to work on oneself is there? And Dashie's cocky confidence gives her the courage to fail? I thought she always had that and it was to not-quite-cover up her fear of failure. (Little gem from me here: Failure is that which is at war with failure.)

Very nice conclusion: Just accept that you cannot adress the masses with high virtue material and expect it to be integrated. Unsurprisingly then it was foals who were still open to it, and those who are are the ones deserving to receive your attention and energy.

 

P.S.: At this point I thought: Oh yeah, Dashie, REALLY skillful attempt at a disguise, especially for you.

 

P.P.S. (Pinkie Pie scriptum):

Edited August 15, 2017 by Dowlphin

[chronos911 22]

Nope, did not like this episode at all..  It just made me want to absolutely hate most of Equestria's populace if they're going to act this childish and rude.   I thought the pony life style might be above all this nonsense but apparently not.   I honestly just dislike when the show tries to mimic real life, and how ridiculous people can be.  I want to be immersed in an epic story in Equestria and it's ponies, not be reminded how fanboys are the most annoying people on the planet.  An to top it all off they didn't learn the error of their ways.   Twilight and friends should forever be living in depression knowing they share the same oxygen as these wretched ponies.  Point being, I feel like this episode has really dumbed down my expectations of the world of Equestria. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by chronos911

[Music Chart Fan 819]

11 minutes ago, Dowlphin said:

P.S.: At this point I thought: Oh yeah, Dashie, REALLY skillful attempt at a disguise, especially for you.

Funnily enough, this isn't the first time that Rainbow has tried ineffectually to use those sunglasses to hide herself. It reminds me of the scene back in "Testing, Testing, 1, 2, 3" when Rainbow tried to use her sunglasses to hide the fact that she was sleeping during Twilight's lesson. I wonder if Rainbow ever realized that wearing sunglasses indoors would itself be suspicious and draw attention to her, thus defeating the purpose, haha.

[Dowlphin 463]

26 minutes ago, chronos911 said:

Nope, did not like this episode at all..  It just made me want to absolutely hate most of Equestria's populace if they're going to act this childish and rude.   I thought the pony life style might be above all this nonsense but apparently not.   I honestly just dislike when the show tries to mimic real life, and how ridiculous people can be.  I want to be immersed in an epic story in Equestria and it's ponies, not be reminded how fanboys are the most annoying people on the planet.  An to top it all off they didn't learn the error of their ways.   Twilight and friends should forever be living in depression knowing they share the same oxygen as these wretched ponies.  Point being, I feel like this episode has really dumbed down my expectations of the world of Equestria. 

While it was particularly harsh and demotivating, it is not a new concept, message conveyed and realization to be evoked that Equestria is not all rainbows and unicorns. You got your typical big-city problems in Manehattan as you have your typical villager issues in Ponyville. It is the contrast that makes the exceptional characters shine. The point is that those are not exceptional because they have an easy time (although it could still be considered an easier environment than real life), but because they set themselves apart. Or you could also say because they have good friends, which is a powerful influence, and the key message of the show. But good friendship cannot be faked. It can only truly exist among people of remarkable character, and then can grow outwards to those who are receptive.

I want people to understand that the bright vision the show is aiming at is a process, a work in progress, that works in our realm, too, if people empower idealism internally instead of being reactionary and offloading pain onto others. It's a zero-sum game as long as you don't bring something into it that wasn't there before, that doesn't have a cause/trigger.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Ganondox 899]

On 2017-08-14 at 1:04 AM, Goat-kun said:

Wait-await-wait, you think I hate the episode? You think I got my jimmies rustled cause of this rochade?  You've pegged me all wrong! Starlight being Celestia'd into a pot plant is right down my alley. That Spike comment is more of a joke than a serious assessment, but I stayed cause I like to debate such things

But seriously, I still think Spike would be better

 

 

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with anything I said, I said nothing about if the episode is good or bad, or what you think about it. 

On 2017-08-14 at 1:10 AM, Phirun Natela said:

Thank you for proving my point then.

Agreed

Except I didn't, as the fact I am calling you out for your unneccary aggressiveness does not make mean that I am personally offended.

[Phirun Natela 77]

The best part of marriage is animal crackers with peanut butter.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Phirun Natela

[Goat-kun 2,527]

19 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with anything I said, I said nothing about if the episode is good or bad, or what you think about it.

Well, then let's just agree to disagree. You seem to think that any rework that does not follow the original to the last detail is inferior. I am of the opinion that Starlight's passive performance can not only be imitated by any other character but improved. Spike's dynamic with Mane 6 is different. I'd say it's more advantageous as he knows all the ponies better, including the Ponyville mob. So while Starlight was only fumbling around looking concerned, he could have actually provided commentary and assistance in a very funny and natural way. Alas, I cannot change the episode nor to I seek to flame our glorious writers for this one. I'm saving myself for later.

[Ganondox 899]

On 2017-08-14 at 2:23 AM, Phirun Natela said:

Welp, we can all string it differently. Lets just agree to disagree m'kay? You think i'm aggressive while i'm not and that's okay. You can think that. ^^

We can all agree to disagree, but you keep going in with a condenscending attitude to other people's opinions. You started this, not me. And yes, you are very aggressive, even if you don't think that you are. Watch what you write. 

On 2017-08-14 at 2:38 AM, Goat-kun said:

Well, then let's just agree to disagree. You seem to think that any rework that does not follow the original to the last detail is inferior. I am of the opinion that Starlight's passive performance can not only be imitated by any other character but improved. Spike's dynamic with Mane 6 is different. I'd say it's more advantageous as he knows all the ponies better, including the Ponyville mob. So while Starlight was only fumbling around looking concerned, he could have actually provided commentary and assistance in a very funny and natural way. Alas, I cannot change the episode nor to I seek to flame our glorious writers for this one. I'm saving myself for later.

 

No, I do not. You completely failing at understanding what I wrote is not me disagreeing with your personal preferences, and I do not appreciate you misrepresenting my position, especially after I already corrected you. Again, I said nothing about the quality, I was challenging your claim that Starlight was a stand-in for Spike, and now you are acting like you agreed with my criticism about it actually being Spike standing in for Starlight Glimmer all along. Cut it out. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

38 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

No, I do not. You completely failing at understanding what I wrote is not me disagreeing with your personal preferences, and I do not appreciate you misrepresenting my position, especially after I already corrected you. Again, I said nothing about the quality, I was challenging your claim that Starlight was a stand-in for Spike, and now you are acting like you agreed with my criticism about it actually being Spike standing in for Starlight Glimmer all along. Cut it out. 

So in the end it's just ... semantics? I could have described this as a stand-in or a replacement, or Twilight's new butt monkey. It was used as a derogatory term to describe her inferiority and similarity to Spike in this particular episode. And don't tell me you didn't notice the resemblance between Spike from early seasons and Starlight. She trailed that royal tail like a proper #01 assistant. Good thing she wasn't taking notes, though she was used as a copy machine so eeee. Anyway, that is the whole secret behind the stand-in comment. Hope it quenched you.

[Ganondox 899]

11 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

So in the end it's just ... semantics? I could have described this as a stand-in or a replacement, or Twilight's new butt monkey. It was used as a derogatory term to describe her inferiority and similarity to Spike in this particular episode. And don't tell me you didn't notice the resemblance between Spike from early seasons and Starlight. She trailed that royal tail like a proper #01 assistant. Good thing she wasn't taking notes, though she was used as a copy machine so eeee. Anyway, that is the whole secret behind the stand-in comment. Hope it quenched you.

 

Maybe, you weren't exactly clear on what you meant, so I just took as assuming you meant the replaced Spike with Starlight Glimmer in the script. Aside from assisting Twilight they aren't that similar though. 

[Steve Piranha 29,415]

3 hours ago, chronos911 said:

Nope, did not like this episode at all..  It just made me want to absolutely hate most of Equestria's populace if they're going to act this childish and rude.   I thought the pony life style might be above all this nonsense but apparently not.   I honestly just dislike when the show tries to mimic real life, and how ridiculous people can be.  I want to be immersed in an epic story in Equestria and it's ponies, not be reminded how fanboys are the most annoying people on the planet.  An to top it all off they didn't learn the error of their ways.   Twilight and friends should forever be living in depression knowing they share the same oxygen as these wretched ponies.  Point being, I feel like this episode has really dumbed down my expectations of the world of Equestria. 

While it is true that Equestria is sunshine and rainbows compared to our world, it has social problems like in our world, and it was shown since S1. Boasting performers, bullies, stuck-up nobles, etc. Plus it's not the first time the whole populace of Poniville acted like collective douches. Remember Putting your Hoof Down back in S2? And unlike that episode, this one is, from a meta sense, justified, because it happens, A LOT, in real life, and pulled most of their arsenal

[Will Guide 21,359]

5 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

While it is true that Equestria is sunshine and rainbows compared to our world, it has social problems like in our world, and it was shown since S1. Boasting performers, bullies, stuck-up nobles, etc. Plus it's not the first time the whole populace of Poniville acted like collective douches. Remember Putting your Hoof Down back in S2? And unlike that episode, this one is, from a meta sense, justified, because it happens, A LOT, in real life, and pulled most of their arsenal

 

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I quite agreed and I believe the complaining ponies served their purpose of showing that any fandom has a group of fans that just can't be pleased!