Characters are enabling Starlight's actions

[KH7672 1,604]

Jeez, KH7672, I thought you said you were done with these topics!Well that was until EqD actually posted a soapbox I submitted over a month ago. (I feel bad because it was kind of a troll just to see what kinds of different responses I'd get)

https://www.equestriadaily.com/2018/01/community-soapbox-67-chrysalis.html?m=1

However, one thing I did get from the comments was a clearer picture on the issue of Starlight's lack of punishment. It's not necessarily the lack but that this lack of punishment is taking away blame that can be used to improve her character. Because with smaller character growth it allows her to keep making mistakes over and over because no one is drilling into her that what she is doing is wrong and instead find excuses to look on the positive side (she did apologize, she did it for good intentions, everything works out in the end) so the characters are consistently allowing this abuse of magic and irrational decisions through only minor tweaks and not facing the issue head on because again everything turns out fine in the end.

It's an interesting viewpoint and while I still say the most dangerous thing she did was lead a monster toward a town (which she has yet to repeat and Thorax took a stand against her) it is a question on whether something could have done about this with the other characters' reactions?

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

I know what you’re talking about. It’s just people who don’t like her trying to paint her in the most negative light possible. If there was a scene where we see her shrug off the idea of consequences, or laugh off the idea that it matters that she might hurt someone, then they might have a point, but not only is that not the case, it’s usually the opposite. She doesn’t keep making the same mistakes because she thinks she’ll just get away with no consequences, it’s because she’s impulsive and doesn’t stop to fully think through the consequences of her action.

This argument is one of the most absurd levels of projection I’ve ever seen.

[MAIKUN 262]

Well to be honest, I find Starlight to be...technically, she is the victim.

[Singe 2,111]

There is a precedent, some of the Mane 6 got away with massive mistakes that wasn't addressed with consequences within the episodes.

[KH7672 1,604]

2 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

She doesn’t keep making the same mistakes because she thinks she’ll just get away with no consequences, it’s because she’s impulsive and doesn’t stop to fully think through the consequences of her action.

Then, is it not frustrating that nothing is done about this impulsiveness. Should characters not be a little more untrusting because she is not thinking through the consequences of her action and reinforce her to do so and not shrug off the implications of this behavior in the long run?

Believe me I enjoy this quirk of hers very much but if there was something that could have been done in execution better, I'd like to understand. Also if you ask me the only character that actually enables her is Trixie but hey that's their dynamic 

[Lucartini 104]

I want to like Starlight. But there's a reason why Paul didn't become buddy-buddy with Ash after their league battle.

Starlight is still evil. And she's never punished properly for it. All the best characters become stupid when they think about her. All because Twilight wants a stupid Pupil!

Starlight is not a good pupil, why can't Twilight see that? Why can't Rainbow Dash tell her? Why can't these characters tell their writers to stop writing them OOC?!?

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

8 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Then, is it not frustrating that nothing is done about this impulsiveness. Should characters not be a little more untrusting because she is not thinking through the consequences of her action and reinforce her to do so and not shrug off the implications of this behavior in the long run?

That’s up to the characters themselves and how they would react to the situation, not what the viewers want to see happen. Like I said, projection. Some people see Starlight’s impulsiveness in the worst light possible, whereas most people just recognize it as a key part of her character, not something that should be criticized just for existing, especially since she is getting better. 

Enablement is more than just not yelling at someone when they mess up, it’s actively encouraging poor behavior, and I would love to see any evidence that anyone (other than Trixie) is telling Starlight that she should keep making impulsive decisions. Or, that Starlight is acting in any way enabled. 

She makes mistakes. It’s going to happen, it’s kinda the main formula of the show. Any attempt to paint these mistakes in some sort of larger negative light is just people looking for anything to complain about. Let me put it this way: I’ll take these complaints more seriously when the same people start to talk about Applejack being enabled to be stubborn. Or Rainbow Dash being enabled to be a jerk. Or Pinkie Pie being enable to act hyper. All of these are character flaws that lead to episodes where the characters mess up, but I’ve never heard a peep about them being enabled.

[Lucartini 104]

2 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

That’s up to the characters themselves and how they would react to the situation, not what the viewers want to see happen. Like I said, projection. Some people see Starlight’s impulsiveness in the worst light possible, whereas most people just recognize it as a key part of her character, not something that should be criticized just for existing, especially since she is getting better. 

Enablement is more than just not yelling at someone when they mess up, it’s actively encouraging poor behavior, and I would love to see any evidence that anyone (other than Trixie) is telling Starlight that she should keep making impulsive decisions. Or, that Starlight is acting in any way enabled. 

She makes mistakes. It’s going to happen, it’s kinda the main formula of the show. Any attempt to paint these mistakes in some sort of larger negative light is just people looking for anything to complain about. Let me put it this way: I’ll take these complaints more seriously when the same people start to talk about Applejack being enabled to be stubborn. Or Rainbow Dash being enabled to be a jerk. Or Pinkie Pie being enable to act hyper. All of these are character flaws that lead to episodes where the characters mess up, but I’ve never heard a peep about them being enabled.

Because Applejack, Rainbow Dash, and Pinkie Pie didn't swap the Princesses Cutie Marks or turn five of equestria's mightiest heroes into slaves.

Rainbow Dash once tried to steal winter to save a friend. Pinkie Pie once made Fluttershy cry. And Applejack... is still stubborn. But they never did anything as bad as Stalin Glimmer did.

[KH7672 1,604]

5 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

That’s up to the characters themselves and how they would react to the situation, not what the viewers want to see happen. Like I said, projection. Some people see Starlight’s impulsiveness in the worst light possible, whereas most people just recognize it as a key part of her character, not something that should be criticized just for existing, especially since she is getting better. 

She makes mistakes. It’s going to happen, it’s kinda the main formula of the show. Any attempt to paint these mistakes in some sort of larger negative light is just people looking for anything to complain about. Let me put it this way: I’ll take these complaints more seriously when the same people start to talk about Applejack being enabled to be stubborn. Or Rainbow Dash being enabled to be a jerk. Or Pinkie Pie being enable to act hyper. All of these are character flaws that lead to episodes where the characters mess up, but I’ve never heard a peep about them being enabled.

 

5 hours ago, Lucartini said:

But they never did anything as bad as Stalin Glimmer did.

So what I'm getting from everything is Starlight was doomed from the start.

There seems to be no clear way to fix her character: either by changing her in ways she already hasn't, or by changing the actions of the characters around her in ways that make sense, downplaying her actions but then what is she actually learning, casting a more positive light on her personality which means more of her in episodes and yeah....change her past you change her actions in the future or her appearance as a villian/antagonist. 

You...you just can't win. And I have to accept that.

[Will Guide 21,362]

Sounds to me like you're all complaining just to hate on someone. And I don't like it when people do that.

To me, Starlight IS putting in the effort to be better and circumstances just make her and everyone else look bad.

In my opinion, People who put in the effort to change and fail are better than those who don't even try to change their ways at all! That was the lesson taught to Fluttershy's brother in Flutter Brutter, after all!

Edited January 18, 2018 by WiiGuy2014

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

12 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

So what I'm getting from everything is Starlight was doomed from the start.

There seems to be no clear way to fix her character

[KH7672 1,604]

@ShootingStar159 Okay yes I know that's an over reaction. I'm just tired...I can't understand these arguments. I know for you it's because they're too weak but something about how much they are argued gets me so intrigued and I just can't help but dig deeper to where these issues actually lie and every time I do I get no straight answer and its frustrating yet that just keeps me coming back to handle that frustration. But I get it, I should just stop for now. Let things be how they are just enjoy what is there and let others have their opinions. I guess that's just the analytical side of me that just can't let things go. I want to figure out WHY. So many can say HOW things can change but they never say WHY they should.

But I'm done with this obsession, at least around here for now until the new Season starts. Time to focus back on other things, like what I'm going to post for the next Qualifier round. 

[Thrond 3,263]

As always, I don’t think any of this would bother me half as much if I simply found Starlight more dynamic and unique as a character. The fact is that she bores me, so I’m disinclined to tolerate her rather consistently poor behaviour. 

I don’t think anyone actually enables her outside of “A Royal Problem,” but I do still find it weird that she has done various deeply questionable things, multiple of which plainly put others in harm’s way, and the people around her - especially the mane six - almost never so much as get exasperated with her. I think their supportive attitude is probably best, but they trust her too much. “A Royal Problem” and especially ”To Change a Changeling” we’re steps in the right direction, minus the former’s ending; what I want is the mane six showing exasperation with Starlight as often as they do with each other (i.e. all the time), and Trixie is just too... Trixie to fill that void.

Honestly, though, I could ignore all of that if she were just less bland in my eyes.

[Kadeda 178]

Every pony on this show has done some pretty horrible things without consequence. If you got mad at starlight then you should be mad at everyone else unless you're biased. Everyone don't have to feel the same way you do.

[Hierok 11,832]

13 hours ago, Lucartini said:

I want to like Starlight. But there's a reason why Paul didn't become buddy-buddy with Ash after their league battle.

Starlight is still evil. And she's never punished properly for it. All the best characters become stupid when they think about her. All because Twilight wants a stupid Pupil!

Starlight is not a good pupil, why can't Twilight see that? Why can't Rainbow Dash tell her? Why can't these characters tell their writers to stop writing them OOC?!?

Is becoming the pupil of Twilight no punishment enough? 

All jokes aside, she isn't evil anymore. Sure, in season 6 she had her moments where she fell back in her old ways, but nowhere on the same level as she was in season 5. She has accepted Twilight as her mentor and is willing to learn.

About her punishment, I think she is punished, but not right at the end of season 5. If you look through season 6, you will see her suvering, which I think was punishment enough for her. 

[Goat-kun 2,530]

Faults in FIM storytelling and character development have given birth to Starlight and were allowed to fester to the point where they plan to amputate a Mane character for the next gen.

 

You have barely skimmed the surface of hatred. The deep is calling.

[Kadeda 178]

6 hours ago, Hieroklicious said:

Is becoming the pupil of Twilight no punishment enough? 

All jokes aside, she isn't evil anymore. Sure, in season 6 she had her moments where she fell back in her old ways, but nowhere on the same level as she was in season 5. She has accepted Twilight as her mentor and is willing to learn.

About her punishment, I think she is punished, but not right at the end of season 5. If you look through season 6, you will see her suvering, which I think was punishment enough for her. 

Some people can't see that. It's crazy cuz a lot of shows don't really show how the public never really forgives you for doing some things. I'm surprised MLP did.  Starlight is reminded relentlessly of what she did... bringing her down every time. Believe me... that is a serious punishment.

[Jeric 46,861]

20 hours ago, Lucartini said:

Rainbow Dash once tried to steal winter to save a friend. Pinkie Pie once made Fluttershy cry. And Applejack... is still stubborn. But they never did anything as bad as Stalin Glimmer did.

Perhaps not, but other redeemed characters have certainly done things that could be considered worse, depending on how one qualifies what is bad, particularly Discord and Sunset. That then opens up the old debate about reformed characters that I don't think anyone is poised to change their view on. 

20 hours ago, Lucartini said:

Because Applejack, Rainbow Dash, and Pinkie Pie didn't swap the Princesses Cutie Marks or turn five of equestria's mightiest heroes into slaves.

Ignoring the Discord angle for a moment, the only question I focus on is this, "Is the response from the Mane Six to Starlight's magical manipulation out of character for them?" 

When I found myself answering no to that question, it helped me appreciate the character more. It's certainly not something that everyone will agree on, but it works for me. Starlight doesn't inherently break any other characters, and the writers use of her has made a few interesting storytelling avenues open up that I liked. 

All that said, there is an argument that some have made that the ending to Royal Problem does reinforce the concern of the OP. I don't share that view, but I can see where it is coming from. 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

On 1/17/2018 at 5:00 PM, ShootingStar159 said:

That’s up to the characters themselves and how they would react to the situation, not what the viewers want to see happen.

...most people just recognize it as a key part of her character, not something that should be criticized just for existing... 

...

She makes mistakes. It’s going to happen, it’s kinda the main formula of the show. ...

These comments suggest to me that part of the issue here might be differences in what extent of dislike of, or disagreement with, deliberate writing/design choices in the show is considered legitimate or acceptable.

So, for example, I've said several times that I largely don't like Pinkie as a character. I often find her hyper/random/crazy antics to be obnoxious; as someone who generally prefers to be left alone, I don't like how, in multiple cases, she can't seem to take "no" for an answer; and I think she can badly overreact to news that she doesn't want to hear, leading her friends to feel as though they have to do things that they don't want to do in order to avoid a potential meltdown.

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, Pinkie is deliberately written to have these as major character traits. But does that fact mean that it's illegitimate or unacceptable for me to dislike those traits, and to dislike Pinkie as a character to the extent that she exhibits them as a major part of her characterization? Does that fact mean that I shouldn't be allowed to express my general dislike of Pinkie as a result of those traits in posts here or elsewhere? I would answer no in both cases.

In Starlight's case, I think one reason that I (and others) dislike her is that I particularly don't like the manner in which Starlight has, in multiple cases, recklessly endangered and violated others by her actions, especially her use of magic, and that that seems to be one of her few major defining characteristics. Furthermore, I disagree with what I see as a relative lack of seriousness with which the characters have treated these actions in the show. (And yes, other main characters have also taken actions with which I have substantial issues, moral or otherwise, and those can be seen in many of my original posts about episodes when they first aired.)

Now, it might be argued that Starlight is intentionally written to do these things as a major aspect of her characterization, and that other characters in the show are intentionally written not to take Starlight's actions as seriously as I might consider appropriate. But then I would ask the same questions as above. Does this mean that it's illegitimate or unacceptable for me to dislike those traits, and to dislike Starlight as a character to the extent that she exhibits those traits as a major part of her characterization? Is it illegitimate or unacceptable for me to disagree with the approach that characters in the show take to Starlight's actions? Should people not be allowed to express general dislike of Starlight or of how her actions are treated in the show in posts here or elsewhere? Again, I would answer no to all of these questions.

If you (or others) would answer the questions I posed differently, then perhaps that difference is at least part of the source of disagreement between those who generally do and don't like Starlight.

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

There’s no such thing as a illegitimate opinion, because that’s all it is, an opinion.

That doesn’t mean people have to agree with your opinion. It doesn’t mean they have to like your opinion. It doesn’t mean they have to respect your opinion, and if they have serious problems with the opinion you hold, then they have every right to counter, mock, or dismiss your opinion as well. Because it’s just their opinions too.

I have a pretty big problem with the comparison you’re drawing between Pinkie Pie and Starlight here. As you say, Pinkie Pie is hyper, doesn’t take no for an answer, and her friends have to tiptoe around her feelings. These are aspects of her personality, characteristics that she has that the stories are written around. And they only apply to her. If you dislike Pinkie for these reasons, it’s because they are hers, part of her character. 

Starlight’s tendency to be reckless, to endanger others, and to “violate” them, is not one of her personality traits. It is not an aspect of her character, something that only applies to her, and what the writers use when they write stories about her. It’s the result of her personality traits and characteristics. Just like it’s also the result of all the other characters personalities and characteristics (especially Twilight).

You say that you don’t like Starlight because she recklessly endangers other and “violates” them. That’s not an opinion I can agree with, it’s not one I can like, and it isn’t one I can respect, because every major character, and most of the side ones, do the exact same things on a consistent basis. It’s taking a key element of the show’s formula and sticking it to one character only and saying it’s a problem.

1 hour ago, Music Chart Fan said:

(And yes, other main characters have also taken actions with which I have substantial issues, moral or otherwise, and those can be seen in many of my original posts about episodes when they first aired.)

If this was true, or if it was as big a deal as your making it out to be for Starlight, than your problem wouldn’t be with her, it would be with the show itself. So, to put it bluntly, I don’t believe you. I don’t believe this is the main reason you don’t like Starlight. I think there’s some other reason that, for some reason, you think doesn’t sound as strong or “legitimate”, so you’re latching onto this “reckless endanger” excuse because you think it makes for a stronger argument. But all your doing is pinning a core element of the show to one person, and only making it an issue for her. That just comes across as hypocritical.

Now, if you want to say that you don’t like Starlight because of the parts of her personality that make her act recklessly; her impulsivess, her self-centered way of thinking that keeps her from considering others thoughts or feelings because after years of isolation it doesn’t come naturally to her, or her over reliance on magic to solve her problems. Well, that’s not an opinion I agree with or like, because I think those are the parts of her that make her interesting. But it’s an opinion I can respect, because, yeah, that’s who Starlight is, and if you don’t like her, you don’t like her. There’s no accounting for taste, so at least I can respect we just have different opinions.

 

[Divine plywood 1,239]

I find it hard to hate comrade Glimmer. Granted, in her past she did enslave entire village, kidnaped princess and her friends, practically tortured them... damn that's dark for kids show! ...tried to change entire course of history with malicious motives, mindcontrolled her new friends yada yada yada... She have shady past and other ponies should feel some healthy untrust in her precence. After all, she finds herself constantly in situation where she is risk for her surroundings, even after becaming friends with protagonists. I have no doubts that her reform and remorse are real, but other ponies over the top forgiveness is yet sometimes too much and maybe the actual problem here.

In season 5 finale they welcome her with song and open hoofs. Not a word is spoken about her past wrongdoings. In season 6 premiere Twilight advices her "not to dwell in the past". Starlight seems to be only one who haven't made peace with her old self and can't move on. In "Every little thing she does" after her mindcontor-misstep Mane Six were once more prehaps little too eager to forgive her than would be realistic or goog for her. Only Pinkie had briefly some normal grudge against her former slavemaster. Whole mess started when Starlight was too anxious because of her friendship lessons. After things eventually wen't downhill, her mentor never scolded her. Not learned her lesson, Starlight later continues executing her bad ideas with good intensions in "A royal problem". Love and trust are cool and whatnot, Twilight, but pupils need also some boundaries.

Instead of ever being just plain evil, Starlight is very fragile, insecure and troubled person who have made bunch bad decisions. After Sunburst she had rough youth, it most definitely left some scars. She have enough inner demons to spare, but she haven't been able to encounter them since nopony ever forces her to talk about her past. If you have a problem, it doesn't vanish by itself. I wager that even magical talking ponies need shrinks. Or at least a friend to talk to. 

So yeah, in a way other characters are enabling her actions. Twilight especially should really step up her game and take part in some pedagogy lessons. (It's not really fair that I had to actually study those things and princesess can just start meddling with students whenever they get their wings.)

 

[SaburoDaimando 1,196]

2 hours ago, Divine plywood said:

I find it hard to hate comrade Glimmer. Granted, in her past she did enslave entire village, kidnaped princess and her friends, practically tortured them... damn that's dark for kids show! ...tried to change entire course of history with malicious motives, mindcontrolled her new friends yada yada yada... She have shady past and other ponies should feel some healthy untrust in her precence. After all, she finds herself constantly in situation where she is risk for her surroundings, even after becaming friends with protagonists. I have no doubts that her reform and remorse are real, but other ponies over the top forgiveness is yet sometimes too much and maybe the actual problem here.

In season 5 finale they welcome her with song and open hoofs. Not a word is spoken about her past wrongdoings. In season 6 premiere Twilight advices her "not to dwell in the past". Starlight seems to be only one who haven't made peace with her old self and can't move on. In "Every little thing she does" after her mindcontor-misstep Mane Six were once more prehaps little too eager to forgive her than would be realistic or goog for her. Only Pinkie had briefly some normal grudge against her former slavemaster. Whole mess started when Starlight was too anxious because of her friendship lessons. After things eventually wen't downhill, her mentor never scolded her. Not learned her lesson, Starlight later continues executing her bad ideas with good intensions in "A royal problem". Love and trust are cool and whatnot, Twilight, but pupils need also some boundaries.

Instead of ever being just plain evil, Starlight is very fragile, insecure and troubled person who have made bunch bad decisions. After Sunburst she had rough youth, it most definitely left some scars. She have enough inner demons to spare, but she haven't been able to encounter them since nopony ever forces her to talk about her past. If you have a problem, it doesn't vanish by itself. I wager that even magical talking ponies need shrinks. Or at least a friend to talk to. 

So yeah, in a way other characters are enabling her actions. Twilight especially should really step up her game and take part in some pedagogy lessons. (It's not really fair that I had to actually study those things and princesess can just start meddling with students whenever they get their wings.)

 

Personally, I think it's that fragile state that makes her a rather interesting character(And one of my personal states).  Maybe it's me, but I always find her meltdowns to be one of the more interesting parts of her characteristics.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

2 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

every major character, and most of the side ones, do the exact same things on a consistent basis.

I was under the impression that it took both powerful magic and a certain disposition to be able to force another pony to talk against his will, or to mind-control five ponies such that they're unable to exercise their free will and are under the command of the spell caster, or to nonconsensually switch the princesses' cutie marks and abilities, to give the biggest examples. So most of the other characters in the show couldn't have done the same things as Starlight did, and thus, the specific issues with Starlight's actions wouldn't have come up with those other characters. I also don't recall any of the protagonist characters having the same consistent pattern of controversial actions - with the same severity and within the same amount of appearances/screen time - as Starlight had in her appearances after her reformation.

Furthermore, I've seen Starlight boosters say that part of her appeal or interest or whatnot is that she doesn't fit in with the rest of Equestria and that she's able and willing to do things that the other characters wouldn't do. At the end of "A Royal Problem", Luna even tells Starlight that "the map was wise to send you" and that "nopony else would have been so bold as to do what you did". Isn't that essentially saying that the Cutie Map expected and called upon Starlight to do different things than any of the other main characters would have done?

3 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

If this was true, or if it was as big a deal as your making it out to be for Starlight, than your problem wouldn’t be with her, it would be with the show itself.

My point was that Starlight hasn't been the only character who has taken actions with which I significantly disagree. But it feels to me that the traits of Starlight's that I dislike and the actions she's taken with which I substantially disagree are a comparatively larger fraction of her characterization and what she's done in the show so far. Some of the other characters who have exhibited traits or actions with which I significantly disagree have had more appearances and screen time in which they displayed other aspects that I like or relate to well enough to have an overall positive (or neutral) opinion of those characters.

3 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

Now, if you want to say that you don’t like Starlight because of the parts of her personality that make her act recklessly; her impulsivess, her self-centered way of thinking that keeps her from considering others thoughts or feelings because after years of isolation it doesn’t come naturally to her, or her over reliance on magic to solve her problems.

I mean, sure, if you think these are more believable reasons not to like Starlight, I would mostly agree that those contribute to my not liking her. I wasn't trying to hide anything, and I don't see why not liking the things you list would be something to hide. I was focusing on Starlight's actions because I thought that this topic was focusing on Starlight's actions.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

People just try too hard to apply human standards to pony standards and they become obsessive to see their own reality applying in this over-optimistic utopia where anypony can have a chance to earn forgiveness for their mistakes. Starlight realized her mistakes then make amend for it and she just get better in S7, even Thorax called out her bullshit, that's great right?! Starlight is a flawed character, making mistakes and learning is what she is, people can make mistakes over time and their learning progression can be different, dont expect she 'get over it' in one episode, she's not a robot, fixing people is not easy. Ponies are too forgiving? We already knew that, its the show nature, i expected some realism just as much as people do but I accept the show's optimism (dont worry guys, they still banish/kill some few terrible bad guys of the show, just pretend Sombra comic didnt exist).

Random: Why i didnt see any 'Should Tempest be punished for her crime against her own kind' thread? 

[Hierok 11,832]

13 hours ago, Kadeda said:

Some people can't see that. It's crazy cuz a lot of shows don't really show how the public never really forgives you for doing some things. I'm surprised MLP did.  Starlight is reminded relentlessly of what she did... bringing her down every time. Believe me... that is a serious punishment.

Exactly. I'm glad she had Twilight on her side, otherwise I'm sure she would have become evil or depressed from it.