Why do Celestia and Luna treat their subjects like children?

[I used to be a stranger 7,994]

As far as we've been told, Celestia and/or Luna could potentially be the actual mothers of the pony races.

 

No I have no idea what I'm on about.

[SrFrog 927]

Aside from Celestia's interaction with Twilight, which would be a what? surrogate mother relationship? I don't see this attitude of which you speak of. As a matter of fact, Luna seemed to be more socially inept than young foals during that one episode.

[Solar Wind 595]

They call them My little ponies due to the size and how old they are. If I remember correctly If you are at least 1000 years old most 20 yearolds would seem like kids to you. to scale it would be like a 100+ calling a 2 yearold a kid.

 

Actually the mane 6 are younger than twenty. Lauren Faust said they are anywhere from 13-17 years old no specific age but between there. She also said ponies age differently with them living shorter lives one thousand years can be interpreted as waaaaaay longer.

So Celestia and Luna are more than a thousand? That means they dwarf other pony lives. They have a right to be calling em children lol.

[BlossomBloom 48]

Wisdom didn't help them found a country. Celestia and Luna didn't do anything besides use brute strength to stop an enemy.

 

that's probably why they are the rulers of Equestria. Since they stopped discord, the ponies believed that they could protect them from any harm.

Edited August 2, 2012 by BlossomBloom

[Solar Wind 595]

CRYSTAL KIN- what... WHAT?! where do I read about this? I Need to know wahts going on here! I am always the last pony to hear about these things.

 

Twilight fails a test Spike gets a song theres a new kingdom nopony knows about fluttershy runs with ewes and rainbow dash gets suited for war... Problem?

[brian577 120]

Actually the mane 6 are younger than twenty. Lauren Faust said they are anywhere from 13-17 years old no specific age but between there. She also said ponies age differently with them living shorter lives one thousand years can be interpreted as waaaaaay longer.

So Celestia and Luna are more than a thousand? That means they dwarf other pony lives. They have a right to be calling em children lol.

 

Faust never said anything about shorter life spans. Only that the ponies mature mentally faster than humans.

Edited August 2, 2012 by brian577

[nonee 130]

I think that Celestia calls them my little ponies because it's what is known as a title drop.... All I need

Not everything has a deep dark secret behind it lol

 

But if you want to get into it. What makes Celestia and Luna such bad leaders? All the ponies seem more than satisfied with their leadership and the life they live under them. They have one of the kindest and wisest leader they can find. Why would they want anypony else honestly?

[XrosOver 613]

It also could be the fact that the only decently aged ponies are Big Mac, Granny Smith, the Cakes, and Ms.Cherillie! Seriously the rest are either mid-late teens to very young adults (by the way they act and look comparatively).

[Ferret Girl 2,642]

Twilight fails a test Spike gets a song theres a new kingdom nopony knows about fluttershy runs with ewes and rainbow dash gets suited for war... Problem?

 

ummmm, nope not really... its actually all starting to make sense now, also where can I see these spoilers?

[Solar Wind 595]

ummmm, nope not really... its actually all starting to make sense now, also where can I see these spoilers?

 

You can go to youtube and type in crystal fair song. Im not sure what the other song name is though... But you might find it on the hub dot com im not entirely sure.

[Comet Tail 808]

They constantly treat them like little foals to be cared for. Yet Celestia and Luna didn't found the country, they didn't discover harmony and friendship and unite for a common goal, the ponies did. What makes Celestia and Luna worthy of being leaders at all when their subjects did all the work? So they beat Discord the first time around, big deal. By that logic the Elements of Harmony should be ruling or how about Shining Armor and Cadence. They raise the sun and moon, but unicorns did that before they came along. They're very powerful, but that makes them suited to be military commanders not government leaders. Why should they rule Equestria at all?

 

Well, let's see reasons why they should be leaders from a canon perspective based off of what we know.

 

1. Together they wielded the elements of harmony and defeated Discord:

"...before my sister and I stood up to him, he ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest, and unhappiness.

 

Luna and I saw how miserable life was for earth ponies, pegasi and unicorns alike, so after discovering the Elements of Harmony, we combined our powers, and rose up against him, turning him to stone."

(5:51-6:16)

 

Expository Scene at 5:40

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgtMalug6hw

 

Okay, forget the list, I think I've already made my case

 

You're a small being, and you've been toyed around with in a chaotic nonsensical existence that's brought you misery and pain, and two regal alicorn sisters use an extremely powerful magic to free you and defeat the evil being that's done this to you.

 

On top of that, if they were the same then as they are now, then they were magestic, unbelievably kind and loving, and extremely wise, not to mention incredibly brave and heroic for standing up to Discord.

 

Why in the hay would they not rule Equestria?

 

 

 

Now, years pass by, that generation is dead and gone, and it's nothing more than a story a few decades later. But still:

 

1. They've already been established as leaders.

2. If you assume they were the same then as they are now, like I mentioned, they're incredibly wise and benevolent leaders

3. Chances are, the ponies have learned by now from those in lower government positions, that corruption comes with power, which makes the diarchy all the more appealing

4. There's no reason to question their rule in the first place. People don't start massive rebellious upheavals when they're happy with their government. And from what we've seen, there's no reason for them to be unhappy with their government. _{Unless a bunch of lazy bums start complaining they're not rich and start occupying Canterlot...}

 

And by the way, not only are monarchies (in this case, a diarchy) the natural human form of government (based off of the earliest human civilizations), but if you look at animals as a reference to the very beginnings of any civilization, and to many ancient civilizations, there's no distinction in-between "military" and "non-military", or "military commanders" and "civilian presidents".

(Oh, yeah, I said human, but you know, the characters are kinda based off of humans, by the fact they can talk... And have a civilization in the first place)

 

The idea of separation of military and state just came a lot sooner than separation of church and state, and is now something we take for granted

 

 

 

 

Oh, and as another has pointed out, when you say "treat them like children", please provide specific examples so we know what you're talking about. That's a bit too general.

 

To me, their treatment is totally appropriate given they're an immortal diarchy, and Celestia possess vast unknown amounts of wisdom and love and she's peacefully ruled Equestria for more than a thousand years. Not to mention, on a purely social level, she's so much taller.

 

I would think it's inappropriate for them to NOT speak like parents. I mean, good gravy, you'd have to be one heck of a prideful little bleep to not find it okay for an extremely loving, benign, powerful, extremely wise monarch that's lived for more than a thousand years to talk like a parent.

 

I mean, how many times to I have to stress that thousand years part, and that they were, you know, the ones who led the world out of a state of "eternal chaos" and into the near-Utopian world of harmony it is now?

 

Who the hay would be greatly upset of they addressed you any other way?

 

And hey, that's even assuming they do. That's giving you a huge benefit there, because in all fairness, I should object to that claim in the first place.

 

I don't think they treat them like children. More like what they are: rulers, and for that they give their subjects a lot of respect, far more than they've earned compared to the diarchy, anyways. Not to mention how much they seem to care for them.

 

(Note: Contrary to "trolling", which I'm pretty sure the developers have even been upset that Celestia's sometimes seen that way, but what Celestia's done is try to lighten the tension with humor. Very, very different from true "trolling", which is making people roused up and angry for sick, selfish amusement. As for "A Bird in the Hoof" and "Ticket Master", remember Celestia orchestrated events, by canon she admitted at the end, in S1E1 and S1E2. There's no reason to assume she didn't orchestrate events in "A Bird in the Hoof" and "Ticket Master", too. Rather, it would be contrary to her established character to assume she didn't, but was either dumb or trolling.)

 

Twilight Sparkle's a little different, but only because she's the protege of Celestia, in other words her pupil. I'm fairly certain any pony in Equestria would be honored with that.

 

What I don't get is how they made a flag with the Princesses on it, when the princesses weren't even there yet.

WAT.

 

The best explanation I've heard is that in a sort of patriotic symbol, rather than plant the actual historically correct flag for Equestria at the time, they planted Equestria's current flag.

 

woah woah woah... let me stop you there..... what do you mean Cadence has her own kingdom? what is this madness

 

MADNESS?...

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I

 

ummmm, nope not really... its actually all starting to make sense now, also where can I see these spoilers?

 

SPOILERS!

 

 

Okay, keep in mind these aren't finished. Lol, one of the musicians actually complained with something like "WHY HASBRO, WHY!?" because he wasn't actually finished with the song, lol.

 

Also notice the lack of sound effects. So they're near-complete drafts of the songs, coupled with near-complete animation, but they aren't episode-ready. (I say this because Applejack is missing at 1:37, lol)

 

I don't know what order they were leaked in, but this is the second song I heard of:

 

And this was the first I heard, I'm linking it second because it'll "spoil your appetite", the singing is so UNBELIEVABLY AMAZING!!!!!!

 

 

Edited August 2, 2012 by Mattlight

[ThatGuyWhoAteTheCookies 51]

They constantly treat them like little foals to be cared for. Yet Celestia and Luna didn't found the country, they didn't discover harmony and friendship and unite for a common goal, the ponies did. What makes Celestia and Luna worthy of being leaders at all when their subjects did all the work? So they beat Discord the first time around, big deal. By that logic the Elements of Harmony should be ruling or how about Shining Armor and Cadence. They raise the sun and moon, but unicorns did that before they came along. They're very powerful, but that makes them suited to be military commanders not government leaders. Why should they rule Equestria at all?

 

If they don't, who would? What pony has done more for Equestria than the two princesses did when they saved all of them from Discord, or when Princess Celestia locked away her sister in the moon so that she would not shroud Equestria in eternal night, or when Princess Celestia sent Twilight off to Ponyville so that she could save Equestria from Nightmare Moon? If you think about it, Celestia and Luna have done a crap load to help Equestria in the past.

[spaghettinoodles 298]

They certainly don't treat the mane six like children, they made Twilight and her friends get rid of Discord for them! I know the six were the ones with the elements of harmony, but if Celestia is so powerful, surely she could beat Discord herself. She put a lot of responsibility and trust into the main characters.

[ThatGuyWhoAteTheCookies 51]

Twilight fails a test Spike gets a song theres a new kingdom nopony knows about fluttershy runs with ewes and rainbow dash gets suited for war... Problem?

 

She gets suited for jousting, not war. I don't know about you, but I usually am able to see a difference between those two.

[Lady Rarity Pony 4,892]

Because that way Molestia always has the satisfying delusion that she's getting at a kid and not a full grown adult.

[Solar Wind 595]

Sorry It was only for like a split second and I didnt get a good look. All I saw was armor... How would a pony joust?!

[NavelColt 22,882]

They ARE a couple thousand years old, everyone is a child compared to them. But for a serious answer, I believe it's just one of the ways they do things, as royalty and as the guardians of the land. Not too dissimilar from the royal canterlot voice, and the fact that they call them 'subjects' in the first place.

[AppleTreeBrony 228]

Reminds me of Invader Zim.

The Pink and Purple Almighty Tallests would act all cool with their tall robotic suits but there just the same without them.

Like Celestia and Luna would be regular Alicorns without their crowns.

Here's a Picture to Celebrate Invader Zim and Ponies

[brian577 120]

Well, let's see reasons why they should be leaders from a canon perspective based off of what we know.

 

1. Together they wielded the elements of harmony and defeated Discord:

"...before my sister and I stood up to him, he ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest, and unhappiness.

 

Luna and I saw how miserable life was for earth ponies, pegasi and unicorns alike, so after discovering the Elements of Harmony, we combined our powers, and rose up against him, turning him to stone."

 

Okay, forget the list, I think I've already made my case

 

For the LAST time. Beating Discord makes them good military commanders, that doesn't mean you should have them the control of the country. The three tribes founded the country under the common goal of friendship and understanding, I don't think corruption was an issue.

Edited August 2, 2012 by brian577

[Phaeston-e12 173]

There are quite a lot of problems existing behind Celestia and Luna's background story which mainly involves basic psychological realism and logic. If I think what will happen is true in the coming season episodes, story writers may try to deviate the attention away from them and focus mainly on the relationship between the man six and Cadence; henceforth the adventure in the crystal kingdom or something as they've labeled it.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see them doing it as well, I've seen how the story-writers for the Mass Effect series botched the ending in a rather spectacular way and that wasn't the first time I've seen professional story-writers screwing up badly. Artists integrity or something..

[Comet Tail 808]

For the LAST time. Beating Discord makes them good military commanders, that doesn't mean you should have them the control of the country. The three tribes founded the country under the common goal of friendship and understanding, I don't think corruption was an issue.

 

Uhm...

 

Please read my entire post before replying

Or at least acknowledge that I've said something related to your reply, if you have.

 

But the rest of my post answered what you wrote already:

 

And by the way, not only are monarchies (in this case, a diarchy) the natural human form of government (based off of the earliest human civilizations), but if you look at animals as a reference to the very beginnings of any civilization, and to many ancient civilizations, there's no distinction in-between "military" and "non-military", or "military commanders" and "civilian presidents".

(Oh, yeah, I said human, but you know, the characters are kinda based off of humans, by the fact they can talk... And have a civilization in the first place)

 

The idea of separation of military and state just came a lot sooner than separation of church and state, and is now something we take for granted

 

 

 

 

Oh, and as another has pointed out, when you say "treat them like children", please provide specific examples so we know what you're talking about. That's a bit too general.

 

To me, their treatment is totally appropriate given they're an immortal diarchy, and Celestia possess vast unknown amounts of wisdom and love and she's peacefully ruled Equestria for more than a thousand years. Not to mention, on a purely social level, she's so much taller.

 

I would think it's inappropriate for them to NOT speak like parents. I mean, good gravy, you'd have to be one heck of a prideful little bleep to not find it okay for an extremely loving, benign, powerful, extremely wise monarch that's lived for more than a thousand years to talk like a parent.

 

I mean, how many times to I have to stress that thousand years part, and that they were, you know, the ones who led the world out of a state of "eternal chaos" and into the near-Utopian world of harmony it is now?

 

Who the hay would be greatly upset of they addressed you any other way?

 

And hey, that's even assuming they do. That's giving you a huge benefit there, because in all fairness, I should object to that claim in the first place.

 

I don't think they treat them like children. More like what they are: rulers, and for that they give their subjects a lot of respect, far more than they've earned compared to the diarchy, anyways. Not to mention how much they seem to care for them.

 

(Note: Contrary to "trolling", which I'm pretty sure the developers have even been upset that Celestia's sometimes seen that way, but what Celestia's done is try to lighten the tension with humor. Very, very different from true "trolling", which is making people roused up and angry for sick, selfish amusement. As for "A Bird in the Hoof" and "Ticket Master", remember Celestia orchestrated events, by canon she admitted at the end, in S1E1 and S1E2. There's no reason to assume she didn't orchestrate events in "A Bird in the Hoof" and "Ticket Master", too. Rather, it would be contrary to her established character to assume she didn't, but was either dumb or trolling.)

 

Twilight Sparkle's a little different, but only because she's the protege of Celestia, in other words her pupil. I'm fairly certain any pony in Equestria would be honored with that.

 

[...]

And I guess I'll take this opportunity to add, that well, quiet simply, they're the ones that established order. Defeating discord means stopping chaos, and bringing harmony and order. I think it's a very safe assumption that that includes making a government.

 

To us, in the 21st century with many thousands of years of human history to reflect on, and our ideas being shaped by them and what we've been taught in history and in our culture, the idea of a Republican Democracy just comes naturally, electing representatives is what we're used to and taught is good. And it's true.

 

But even better is a benign monarchy. And the only form of government was very much like this until the ancient Greeks came along.

 

And who else would be the monarch, or in this case, the diarchs, other than the ones who created the government?

 

When you overthrow an old ruler, you not only defeat them, but you also, in the same action, establish a new rule of some kind. As we can see, Celestia and Luna were organized about this and established a beautifully elegant system.

 

 

The best form of government is a benign, wise monarchy.

 

There are quite a lot of problems existing behind Celestia and Luna's background story which mainly involves basic psychological realism and logic. If I think what will happen is true in the coming season episodes, story writers may try to deviate the attention away from them and focus mainly on the relationship between the man six and Cadence; henceforth the adventure in the crystal kingdom or something as they've labeled it.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see them doing it as well, I've seen how the story-writers for the Mass Effect series botched the ending in a rather spectacular way and that wasn't the first time I've seen professional story-writers screwing up badly. Artists integrity or something..

 

Psychological realism? Seriously? These are demigods and you're complaining they aren't psychologically realistic?

 

Look, IMO, there's 3 levels:

1. Very likely possible

2. Maybe possible

3. Not possible

 

Given that Discord ruled the world in chaos, and that it took the Elements of Harmony to defeat him, and that the Elements of Harmony can only be used by benign beings, I would consider it psychologically #1 that Celestia and Luna are the way they are.

 

Luna is a bit more pessimistic, i.e. not as "Mary Sue" as Celestia, and that's all it takes to satisfy me. What's wrong with a "Mary Sue"? I don't complain that Twilight is analytical, or that Rainbow Dash is adventurous. It's just their character. And as I pointed out last paragraph, it only makes sense that the extremely rare individual, like Celestia is, would be the one to defeat Discord.

 

I mean, consider this: She had to represent not one, but THREE elements of harmony, or at least, together Celestia and Luna had to represent all SIX. So the fact that an individual that represented MULTIPLE elements of harmony, Luna, became corrupt, I consider all the "dark grittiness" that's needed to make it realistic.

 

A prerequisite for defeating Discord, is that whatever team does it, must be in harmony with one another, and must have the attributes to be the avatar for all six elements.

 

Two individuals did it.

 

What in tarnation would they be OTHER than near-"Mary Sue"s if they managed to amount to all six? And the fact that one of these noble beings was corrupted and became evil, is good enough to satisfy my idea of realistic.

 

 

 

Personally, I want to see more of Celestia and Luna. IMO they're a wonderful pair of characters with an awesome background. I'd be absolutely thrilled to see an episode about Celestia! Luna's already had one!

Edited August 2, 2012 by Mattlight

[Phaeston-e12 173]

Uhm...

 

Please read my entire post before replying

Or at least acknowledge that I've said something related to your reply, if you have.

 

But the rest of my post answered what you wrote already:

 

 

 

And I guess I'll take this opportunity to add, that well, quiet simply, they're the ones that established order. Defeating discord means stopping chaos, and bringing harmony and order. I think it's a very safe assumption that that includes making a government.

 

To us, in the 21st century with many thousands of years of human history to reflect on, and our ideas being shaped by them and what we've been taught in history and in our culture, the idea of a Republican Democracy just comes naturally, electing representatives is what we're used to and taught is good. And it's true.

 

But even better is a benign monarchy. And the only form of government was very much like this until the ancient Greeks came along.

 

And who else would be the monarch, or in this case, the diarchs, other than the ones who created the government?

 

When you overthrow an old ruler, you not only defeat them, but you also, in the same action, establish a new rule of some kind. As we can see, Celestia and Luna were organized about this and established a beautifully elegant system.

 

 

The best form of government is a benign, wise monarchy.

 

 

 

Psychological realism? Seriously? These are demigods and you're complaining they aren't psychologically realistic?

 

Look, IMO, there's 3 levels:

1. Very likely possible

2. Maybe possible

3. Not possible

 

Given that Discord ruled the world in chaos, and that it took the Elements of Harmony to defeat him, and that the Elements of Harmony can only be used by benign beings, I would consider it psychologically #1 that Celestia and Luna are the way they are.

 

Luna is a bit more pessimistic, i.e. not as "Mary Sue" as Celestia, and that's all it takes to satisfy me. What's wrong with a "Mary Sue"? I don't complain that Twilight is analytical, or that Rainbow Dash is adventurous. It's just their character. And as I pointed out last paragraph, it only makes sense that the extremely rare individual, like Celestia is, would be the one to defeat Discord.

 

I mean, consider this: She had to represent not one, but THREE elements of harmony, or at least, together Celestia and Luna had to represent all SIX. So the fact that an individual that represented MULTIPLE elements of harmony, Luna, became corrupt, I consider all the "dark grittiness" that's needed to make it realistic.

 

A prerequisite for defeating Discord, is that whatever team does it, must be in harmony with one another, and must have the attributes to be the avatar for all six elements.

 

Two individuals did it.

 

What in tarnation would they be OTHER than near-"Mary Sue"s if they managed to amount to all six? And the fact that one of these noble beings was corrupted and became evil, is good enough to satisfy my idea of realistic.

 

 

 

Personally, I want to see more of Celestia and Luna. IMO they're a wonderful pair of characters with an awesome background. I'd be absolutely thrilled to see an episode about Celestia! Luna's already had one!

 

First of all, the storywriters have already confirmed that they are nowhere in that god-like status and they are simply a ponies with a lot more powers than the others. Plenty of times in the series they've shown plenty of realistic character flaws and that further confirms it. Realism problem stems from two different reasons, a fact that there is a deliberate lack of attention from the storywriter's end to both characters which contributes to the severe character development problem; which accounts for why there are many parodies of Celestia and that there are several logical problems existing within their background story.

 

This is quite acceptable given the fact that this is a show for young girls. Once you shift the story's attention to both sisters, then the tone of the overall series can quickly become inappropriate.

 

Then again, there's also a problem where I see that I feel that story-writers shouldn't give such an idea to the children based on their background lore as well. But that minor part of my argument is purely my own opinion.

[Ferret Girl 2,642]

Alicorn Origins

Alicorns were one of the biproducts of nuclear radiation which coated the earth after a massive nuclear war that occured when resources on the planet became dangerously low. Few species survived the atomic fire and almost all the survivors were mutated breeds from prolonged exposure. after a milenia of mutations alicorns along with sentient pony beings, began walking the earth, these ponies soon adapted and formed Egologistical societies in which today the alicorns are regarded as royalty being that their magical abilities often exeed other ponies.

 

Luna and celestia are exceptional in this case... as one of their genetic mutations allows them eternal life by means of an improved cellular structure and longevity. These two were among the first alicorns created.

[Celebrei 30]

Celestia is as old as Equestria itself so it's only natural that her wisdom eclipses that of her subjects and I don't see Celestia as a type of mother who spoils her children to the point that they grow up rotten, I see her more as a benevolent matriarch who allows her subjects to learn from life's lessons through trial and error, she doesn't impose draconian edicts that dictates how her subjects should live instead she merely guides them as a mentor and counselor, she ordered Twilight Sparkle to live in Ponyville but she doesn't dictate to Twilight how she should live there, that's why Twilight sends reports to her about the lessons she learned in each episode.

[Dreadmallon 353]

Why did Yoda treat Luke like an idiot?

 

To relate to this topic, I have to say that they are both much wiser than everypony, which allows them to treat others like foals.