technology Steam Engines

[repsol rave 2,963]

 

 

I've actually considered if it was possible to make an aircraft-grade steam turbine.

a steam turbine you say? that is gonna be one hell of an expensive machine.

i have a industrial grade steam turbine at school, a parsons over pressure turbine. (this could be named very, very wrong. i literally translated it from dutch)

anyway, that's a turbine with a few rotors, and every rotor has about 20-50 blades.

each blade is specially crafted to be a exact duplicate of the rest of the baldes, since you can't have the least bit of imperfection if you want to prevent unwanted vibrations.

so each blade costs about 350 euros.  

[RazzyJam 1,519]

a steam turbine you say? that is gonna be one hell of an expensive machine.

i have a industrial grade steam turbine at school, a parsons over pressure turbine. (this could be named very, very wrong. i literally translated it from dutch)

anyway, that's a turbine with a few rotors, and every rotor has about 20-50 blades.

each blade is specially crafted to be a exact duplicate of the rest of the baldes, since you can't have the least bit of imperfection if you want to prevent unwanted vibrations.

so each blade costs about 350 euros.

Yeah, but arent dutch turbines like the best and most expensive in the world?

 

You COULD make a steam turbine for cheap. Ive done it using a bunch of spare soup cans. Was it reliable? No, but it worked and I got it to power a small calculator. 

With a little more effort, I could see one being made for... $1500? If you do it right. 

[Fhaolan 4,494]

Yeah, but arent dutch turbines like the best and most expensive in the world?

 

You COULD make a steam turbine for cheap. Ive done it using a bunch of spare soup cans. Was it reliable? No, but it worked and I got it to power a small calculator. 

With a little more effort, I could see one being made for... $1500? If you do it right.

If you want to experiment, you could go with a bladeless turbine, with a series of platters that the steam is blown into at a tangent. It only become efficient with platters made at tolerances beyond reason, but it's fun.

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,676]

Hm, this is a mechanical engineering topic and I am in electrical engineering but I think I could help you out with something if you think about designing steam engines. The entire technical faculty including the mechanical and electrical engineering courses get the same kind of calculus and math so I should be of some assistance there.

 

How good is your algebra? Can you derive and integrate? What about ordinary differential equations of first and second order? Do you know about the Laplace transform that can simplify the solving of differential equations? What about Fourier analysis? (At least I think that last one will be relevant if you're going to find screwy, non-sine periodic signals movements) How easily can you solve sets of linear equations? How well can you work with various kinds of mathematical functions? Do you know about complex (imaginary) numbers and the various ways to do arithmetic with them? (I am particularly good in that one) What about infinite rows? Can you integrate and derive with multiple variables? Do matrices and the term determinant ring any bells?

 

Those are all the material we get in mathematics. Just don't ask me how each will apply in the mechanical engineering of steam engines because I honestly wouldn't know... What I can tell you for sure is that you'll definitely want to know how to derive, integrate and solve differential equations as we've gotten various examples of those being applied to mechanical systems such as springs. The Laplace transform should definitely be relevant to your interests as that is an integral part of analyzing mechanical control systems.

[RazzyJam 1,519]

You could always build the steam engine the old fashioned way; Dead reckoning. Just knowledge of what components are good for doing what functions helps. There are some things you will need to modify though. For example, if you are using a governor to regulare the engine, you will have to mess with the mass, and that will definitely require math to be done properly. 

[I used to be a stranger 7,994]

Well the idea is only hypothetical at best, for me.

I have no materials with which to construct a prototype, and no knowhow from which either a model or a theoretical engine build could come from.

[deadprofile 1,123]

 

How good is your algebra? Can you derive and integrate? What about ordinary differential equations of first and second order? Do you know about the Laplace transform that can simplify the solving of differential equations? What about Fourier analysis? (At least I think that last one will be relevant if you're going to find screwy, non-sine periodic signals movements) How easily can you solve sets of linear equations? How well can you work with various kinds of mathematical functions? Do you know about complex (imaginary) numbers and the various ways to do arithmetic with them? (I am particularly good in that one) What about infinite rows? Can you integrate and derive with multiple variables? Do matrices and the term determinant ring any bells?

 

Those are all the material we get in mathematics. Just don't ask me how each will apply in the mechanical engineering of steam engines because I honestly wouldn't know... What I can tell you for sure is that you'll definitely want to know how to derive, integrate and solve differential equations as we've gotten various examples of those being applied to mechanical systems such as springs. The Laplace transform should definitely be relevant to your interests as that is an integral part of analyzing mechanical control systems.

 

  lets say I know enough about math to know my scientific calculator is my friend, and I know basic algebra, and a few of what you said rings some bells in my head (it's been 4 years since taking a real math class, all i really learned in college was converting binary code).  All the books I have been reading really involve math, but I have an extensive library, so I am confident I can learn what I need to in order to utilize all that greek (lol). 

Seriously though take a look at the history of steam power,  the pioneers of steam engines and really many who helped father the industrial revolution did not have a very high education.  Their ambition led to their learning, and if they can do it, so can I!  I am willing to learn what it takes to do this; and I believe understanding the math is going to be the hardest part of this journey, but once I get it down, I think the rest will be a cake walk, since I already do metalworking of many trades. On the other side, I also am a master at jimmywrigging,  and not half-arsing it either (can't half-arse steam power because that'll be deadly), so dead-reckoning is going to be very helpful, as well as a bit of common sense

 

To help me,  I am actually going to start really small and simple by making a few models, first ones that have all the components and then steadily incorporating models where I need to machine my own parts.  That and with the steam engine class, hands on running some steam engines, and continuing to learn about foundry work and pre-CNC machining, I think I will be able to make my own from scratch within 7-10 years.  I can't expect to learn and be able to do everything at once.  What I want to do isn't just a summer project (though summer is technically over anyways) this is going to take years, if not become a big part of my life (which I hope it will). 

 

For once, I finally a sense of direction with my life, but this path is one that I know so little about, yet I know enough and am outright fascinated enough to want to travel this road.  At first I thought about going into children's ministry, but even though I excel at working with children, there's just been something missing.  I love being able to get my hands covered in soot and grease, to actually know my dirty, calloused hands tell myself and others that I have been working hard.  I don't want a desk job, and I surely don't want a job where my contribution means little to nothing.  I want to be able to look back on my life and tell the youth that I have had good reason to keep the past alive, to be able to show them my hard work, to teach the young about technology long gone. 

I go by this analogy with this world. 

With technology pushing the boundaries of what humans are capable of, there is a constant desire all over the world to throw away what is old and learn the new, to always be looking ahead...BUT, if you are constantly building a bridge out this newer technology, and the world begins to falls apart (i.e. bad things happen), how can you turn back, you destroyed/ let go to waste the old bridge behind you and refused to learn how that old bridge was made in the first place so even if there was an old bridge, you cannot repair or build it back. 

 

There are too little saving graces of today's world in my eyes, I truly feel I was born a 150 years too late.  Yes life was hard, and I am constantly hearing the old people saying that I'll never like how the world was because I am too caught up in the new.  But how can I be, when I actually want to work for myself by the sweat of my own brow.  I understand the commodities that we have today (such as the internet), but I loathe tv, hate smartphones, and not to happy about the future of this world, and yet, I love blacksmithing, doing a garden by hand with a simple 1800's hand plow, would rather have wood heat than forced air, haven't needed an air conditioner all summer despite to 100 degree temps, and am perfectly content making my own bread from scratch, even grinding the wheat.  Work to me = life.  I feel fully alive when I work, but work today isn't really work, because this society has made it nearly impossible to work for myself in my own entirety. I can do a few things but in end, we all being forced to walk on a bridge to the future,whether we like it or not. 

Edited September 6, 2013 by Treble Bolt

[repsol rave 2,963]

i have no idea what you people are talking about with your algebras and calculations...

i build my steam engine without all that. the only calculations i made where for the prize of the parts XD

i'm very terrible at maths

Edited September 6, 2013 by repsol rave

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,676]

Just now I wondered what the difference is between a steam engine and a steam turbine which brought me to this. Here's an interesting quote I found there in the last paragraph

 

 

With the high cost of the fuel used for internal combustion engines, the rebirth of steam engines is visible at present. Steam engines are very good in recapturing the waste energy from many sources including steam turbines exhaust. The waste heat from steam turbine is used in combined cycle power plants. It further allows discharging the waste steam as exhaust in much low temperatures.

[deadprofile 1,123]

whoa, I just rambled on...sorry about that, this kind of stuff really fires me up (in good and bad ways)....back on track

 

Steam engines can hypothetically be run off of dried poop!  Anything that uses fire as an energy source can use just about anything burnable, so you never have to really worry about running out of fuel, it's just with steam engines, you need a LOT of fuel...mini ones, not so much...

[Fhaolan 4,494]

i have no idea what you people are talking about with your algebras and calculations...

i build my steam engine without all that. the only calculations i made where for the prize of the parts XD

i'm very terrible at maths

The math is for getting efficiency and safety tolerances. When you're building an actual traction engine or locomotive engine, you're dealing with pressures and whatnot that you don't really want to just eyeball. If it's a little one, like a toy or something, there's not as much need for that kind of thing.

 

Just now I wondered what the difference is between a steam engine and a steam turbine which brought me to this. Here's an interesting quote I found there in the last paragraph

The way I had it explained to me, in the most basic terms: Turbines are very efficient when they're supposed to run at a set speed for a long time. Things like generators work well with turbines. Engines (by which most people mean piston engines) are good when you need to vary the speed of the engine a lot, such as in cars.

 

More sophisticated turbines with variable-pitch blades, and more unusual engine designs like the rotary engine, blur the lines there of course.

[deadprofile 1,123]

don't turbines also need a set amount of "work" i.e they can only do a certain thing that they were made to do, whereas with steam engines and the like, they can have many different types of "work" from field work, hauling small to large things, to racing (slow races lol)

[repsol rave 2,963]

don't turbines also need a set amount of "work" i.e they can only do a certain thing that they were made to do, whereas with steam engines and the like, they can have many different types of "work" from field work, hauling small to large things, to racing (slow races lol)

this all depends on the size of the turbine. and the design. also skew of  the blades and the amount of rotors.

or you use a single rotor machine, but that would need to be huge

it would be very impractical, and even more ridiculous to actually build but it is possible to create a steam turbine powered vehicle.

but yeah, you would be better off using a steam engine for something like hauling stuff :3

Edited September 6, 2013 by repsol rave

[Fhaolan 4,494]

I was simplifying a bit. To be more accurate a Turbine is most efficient when running at it's design speed with it's design load. Any variation in load or speed and the turbine's efficiency drops rapidly.

 

Piston engines are, on average, not as efficient as Turbines (when the turbine is at design speed/load), but are able to deal with a higher variation in speed and load with far less drop in efficiency.

 

So if you don't know what you're going to be doing with it, or there's a variety of things you're wanting to do, an engine is better than a turbine. If you know exactly what you're doing with it, and that thing is rarely going to vary, then a turbine is better than an engine.

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,676]

Guys, you are going to love this!

It turns out that a modified steam engine could give electric power from solar 24 hours a day as it also does energy storage. Article here:

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/return-of-the-steam-engine-cheap-storage-for-solar-34662