Is Nightmare Moon Evil?

[Plato's Pony 455]

After some pondering, I have come to realize that the big question is whether to treat NM as a separate pony or as a part of Luna's personality.

 

In this one short scene in Luna Eclipsed, Luna can be seen sitting in the shadow of the NM statue, pushing a single piece of candy towards it with a sad look on her face.

 

 

 

This scene led me to conclude the following:

 

• Luna believes NM did take control of her entire personality (artfully shown with Luna sitting in NM's shadow in the scene)
• Luna was seen pushing a piece of candy towards the NM statue so that she wouldn't get "gobbled up" by her former self
• On the other hand, this could just be depicting Luna's regret of her former actions, however the pushing-the-candy-towards-the-statue part doesn't fit in with this possibility

 

So, according to the writers, NM isn't a pony or a personality but a parasite that inhabited itself in Luna's body.  Equestria is a very strange place.  Who knows, maybe there are tiny parasites floating around that inhabit themselves in the minds of mentally distressed ponies, causing them to go dark.  Or maybe it could just be the result of living in jealousy and sadness for hundreds of years, in which the brain decides it has had too much and begins taking control of itself, ignoring the conscience of its owner.

 

 

Anyway, if Nightmare Moon and Luna are treated as separate entities, NM being a parasite and Luna being a troubled pony, NM would be considered evil.  If NM and Luna are treated as the same pony, NM being a part of Luna's personality, then that is where it gets complicated.

[PE Brony 1,712]

[L]ooking back on the scene, it seems like Luna was just having an advanced form of a temper tantrum.  I believe Nightmare Moon is merely Luna expressing all of her negative emotions at once...

 

f you have a little kid who's screaming and crying and throwing stuff at walls, does that mean they're evil?

 

She was living for hundreds of years in her sister's shadow, and not one pony seemed to care for her or her night.

 

Had Nightmare Moon been thinking clearly, she would have realized her actions would eventually work against her, which strengthens my theory she was merely having a temper tantrum.

 

he didn't try to kill the Mane Six.  She simply put up obstacles in their path in the hopes to scare them away.

She wasn't meaning to cause anyone harm besides her sister, whom she didn't even kill on her return as she said she would: "I have but one royal duty now: TO DESTROY YOU!!!".  Celestia returned at the end of episode two, unharmed.

So, I re-watched the first two episodes along with the flashback episodes, and honestly, there's not a whole lot of information to go on.

 

Things can get pretty scary if a magically-powerful alicorn princess has a severe temper tantrum. Like you said, her resentment obviously had been building up for quite a long time. I remember a few years ago when I had committed to not doing certain things (like playing video games, dating, watching movies, etc--it was for a church-related thing) for a period in my life and my siblings would nit-pick at me whenever I'd do something like use the computer, saying that I was breaking my rules (when really they just wanted to use it). I put up with it for 3 months. Then I snapped. I chewed out my favorite sister. Sadly, she was the one that said the sentence that pushed me over the edge. My sisters' jaws were literally left open. I'd never done that before in the 19 years before that moment. Resentment can lead to horrible decisions and drastic measures.

 

I can agree with you that having eternal night would not be very beneficial (despite being a night owl and even being accused of being a vampire) to life seeing how important sunlight is for life to survive.

 

The only difference between a kid throwing a tantrum and Nightmare Moon is that Nightmare Moon could actually result in ponies dead.

 

Luna was being a whiny baby who shouldn't have expected Celestia to automatically know her feelings, since rulers are kind of...busy ruling. If she went to Celestia for her problems first, things would be different, but she didn't. No excuses for the way she acted, none. 

When was the first time you ever went to speak to your older sibling about how they were ignoring you or ruining your life? I know I never did. Many, many issues would be solved if people would just share their feelings instead of letting it corrode their feelings. However, that requires putting oneself on the chopping block, and opening up for others to see your weaknesses, and nobody enjoys doing that. Celestia, as the older sibling, would have had the better chance of recognizing the growing anger inside of her sister, but really, how often do we care for the advice or instruction of our older siblings? Not until my sisters and I have all grown up have we really learned to get along. Remember that Luna was still super-tiny compared to Celestia upon her return to her natural form (pre-updated look).

 

But that's the point.  She wasn't thinking.  And if she wasn't thinking, she must have not been trying to be evil. 

That leads me to point out the main role of being an older sister or brother.  Older siblings should always put their younger siblings first, even if that means giving up their power over other people.  Luna wasn't wrong to expect her sister would eventually stand up for her, however, it is true that she should've told her feelings to her sister to make things right.  If anyone was wrong in this situation, it would be Celestia, for not noticing her younger sister's emotional problems (it's not like Celestia is locked up in a box, ruling her kingdom from there.  She must have at least some contact with her sister).

 

She wasn't being ignored for just days or weeks or months.  She was shunned for hundreds of years.  Imagine what kind of emotional impact that would have on a person (of course, no one is known to have lived longer than 122 years, but you get the idea).

Luna had no intention of bringing pain to the ponies, but was tired of nopony being awake to enjoy her beautiful night. (I guess there weren't any gamers in the old days pulling all-nighters eh?) 

 

*** I meant for this to be much more profound, but I've not been able to devote as much time as I had hoped!   I've spent the last week helping my parents pack up the house (all 6000+ sq. ft. so they can move out this week).

[sweetolebob18 728]

I would sort of split the difference.  Yes, she was evil (trying to imprison your sister is NOT A Nice Thing) but she wasn't trying to conquer EQ.  Plus, I think maybe Luna had some influence on her actions which is why she just tried to scare the Mane 6 instead of, for instance, blasting them w lightning bolts

[Red_Rain 25]

Okay look at it this way.
*Ahem*

Your the younger sibling of a being that controls the sun, and they're the one that gets all the happiness from the subjects, you only ever get to chat with guards that get up in the night to patrol the grounds. you put up with this for what 100, 200 years? the loneliness would Kick in. same as the psychological breaks. you'd lose your mind just talking to this group of people that only say the same thing ever. you'd want to be normal. Now when you finally take action your not thrown in prison stripped of your power for 10 years. No much to simple. your banished to the moon for 1000 years. after the initial ten you'd learn you lesson. the next ten would be slight hope that they weren't fully serious. the next 980 would be mounting hatred against the one you were banished by. now after you imprisoned for 1000 years you managed to escape your imprisonment. and are
A. Crazy out of bloody all things living.
B. Really pissed off.
Now you want to follow through with your plan and are defeated and brought to your senses and then made to apologise for the actions of your sibling which banished you to a living hell and given no chance at redemption for 999.364 years. No she wasn't evil. she was possessed by rage and insanity, also a demonic presence. so no nightmare moon wasn't Evil. she was a crazy pissed off four legged aileron out for revenge. I'm surprised Luna hasn't shanked Celestia with a knife in the middle of the night cause wouldn't you be angry not being given food or water for 1000 years. or any entertainment. other than some rocks?

[Gary S. 102]

Is this even debatable?  I must stay away from those topics or i'll be banned this year.

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

Let's see, she engaged in terrorist activities, forcefully usurped (and apparently banished) a universally loved leader for personal gain, and attempted to kill ponies. So yes

[camsterman101 159]

I believe that Nightmare moon just felt left out, so all she did was to reak havoc, she did not know how to be friendly and let her feelings out any other way.

 

Luna on the other hoof is a sweetheart and she is really kind, for example how she helped Sweetie Belle out.

 

-Apple Daze

[Pixel Stick 927]

As with most of the deeper topics in this show, I think this one is really just a matter of interpretation - I applaud the writers and artists for not completely spelling this out for us, even if the show is geared toward younger audiences. In my opinion, the fact that we can ask this question at all speaks not only to how well the FiM staff have made this topic ambiguous and open to interpretation, but in fact goes one step deeper by forcing us to ask: What is evil?

 

You all have some great points on both sides - on one hand, Nightmare Moon was demonstrably evil.  Her actions were clearly premeditated.  She had plans, she executed on them, and she thought up all sorts of clever ways to try to stop the Mane 6 from stopping her.  She knew what she was doing.  So in my opinion, Nightmare Moon was clearly evil.

 

But the complexity comes in when you relate Nightmare Moon to Luna.  We know that Luna transformed into Nightmare Moon, and we have some strong suggestions as to why.  In Twilight's flashback, we saw that Luna directly addressed Celestia before her transformation, and all indications are that she did it willingly and deliberately.  But that still doesn't fully explain what happened before that.  I think there are three possibilities:

 

(1) Luna and NMM are the same pony - NMM being Luna's "war form", showing that Luna deliberately attacked Celestia and Equestria.  This would make Luna at least capable of being evil, and it gives her the possibility of "defecting" again of her own free will sometime in the future.

 

(2) NMM is a physical manifestation of Luna's psychological and emotional problems.  We know that Luna was envious of Celestia's popularity and adoration, but instead of her becoming knowingly resentful, perhaps she instead fell into a depression in which she lost control of her negative emotions.  In other words, she went insane and, in a world of magic fueled by emotional and mental states, NMM formed in response.

 

(3) NMM is an external entity - a spirit, parasite, or some form of magic, possibly under its own control or someone else's - that used Luna as its host.  If we take this approach, then I think the most plausible explanation is that it had "infected" Luna at some point in the distant past and fed off of her negative emotions, gradually consuming her from within until it had taken over.  When Luna transformed into NMM, she would no longer have been in control.

 

I don't know which of these Lauren Faust and the writers had in mind when they created this character, but I'm inclined to believe that the relationship between Luna and Nightmare Moon is deep, complex and somewhat unpredictable.  Luna is a strong character partly because of this mystery about her - what would it take to cause Nightmare Moon to appear again?  Is Equestria safe from NMM because everypony is paying more attention to Luna now?  Is Celestia keeping a closer eye on her sister and watching for signs of a relapse?  I think just assuming that NMM has been vanquished once and for all is too simplistic a resolution - we may never see NMM again in this show, but I doubt she's gone forever.

 

What I do believe is that, regardless of why she did it, Luna has clearly repented for her past actions, and has taken full responsibility for them, whether she believes NMM was herself or something else.  She admits to having struggled with her feelings toward her sister, she uses that experience to teach other ponies (Sweetie Belle, for instance) how to deal with issues of envy, and she is now seen as generally good.

 

IMO, regardless of what relationship NMM has to Luna, Luna herself is a genuinely good pony who is capable of being evil and is at risk of relapsing into evil.  But I don't believe she is, by definition, evil.

[Princess Lona 382]

SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THE COMICS. And seriously, read the comics because they are so, so good at clearing up this sort of thing. I suppose some people debate this, but I consider them canon. They are licenced, after all.

 

According to the comics, NMM was created by combining Luna's resentment with Nightmare Magic (an evil, fluid entity which lives in a host pony and feeds off of negativity). Nightmare Magic controls its host by learning all of their deepest, darkest fears and creating the illusion that they are coming true. The comics suggest that when Luna was just beginning to feel resentment, she would have gone to Celestia and told her her feelings, but before she had the chance to do so, the Nightmare Magic took advantage of Luna's weakness and took control of her. It sept in slowly and sowed more fear, creating a skewed version of reality that left Luna with no faith in Celestia's ability to understand her feelings. The Nightmare Magic showed Celestia to be a selfish and arrogant Ruler, and it showed all the ponies actively hating the night, jeering at it, lighting lanterns out of pure spite. What Luna saw was not really happening but it felt real to her and she believed it to be. Eventually this waking nightmare she was experiencing transformed her into Nightmare Moon and the rest is history.

 

So Nightmare Moon made the same choices that Luna would have made under those dire circumstances. If Celestia and the Equestrians were being total a-holes then Luna would have been justified in trying to bring on night eternal, just to show them up. Not sure about the killing thing. But of course, Celestia would never really be so cruel and the ponies didn't actually hate the night, so Luna was tricked into acting that way.

 

TL;DR: Nightmare Moon isn't evil but Nightmare Magic is and it created/was controlling her.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Princess Lona

[Guest]

Hey there @, I just wanted to inform you that I have merged your thread with an older thread that similarly questions Nightmare Moon's 'evil' nature. Please use the search function before making a thread, so that you can see whether a thread already exists for your desired topic of discussion (thereby limiting your chance of posting duplicate threads). Many thanks and please continue.

[Sazama Ichida 2,367]

She WAS Evil but was purified by the Elements of Harmony.

[Plato's Pony 455]

SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THE COMICS. And seriously, read the comics because they are so, so good at clearing up this sort of thing. I suppose some people debate this, but I consider them canon. They are licenced, after all.

 

According to the comics, NMM was created by combining Luna's resentment with Nightmare Magic (an evil, fluid entity which lives in a host pony and feeds off of negativity). Nightmare Magic controls its host by learning all of their deepest, darkest fears and creating the illusion that they are coming true. The comics suggest that when Luna was just beginning to feel resentment, she would have gone to Celestia and told her her feelings, but before she had the chance to do so, the Nightmare Magic took advantage of Luna's weakness and took control of her. It sept in slowly and sowed more fear, creating a skewed version of reality that left Luna with no faith in Celestia's ability to understand her feelings. The Nightmare Magic showed Celestia to be a selfish and arrogant Ruler, and it showed all the ponies actively hating the night, jeering at it, lighting lanterns out of pure spite. What Luna saw was not really happening but it felt real to her and she believed it to be. Eventually this waking nightmare she was experiencing transformed her into Nightmare Moon and the rest is history.

 

So Nightmare Moon made the same choices that Luna would have made under those dire circumstances. If Celestia and the Equestrians were being total a-holes then Luna would have been justified in trying to bring on night eternal, just to show them up. Not sure about the killing thing. But of course, Celestia would never really be so cruel and the ponies didn't actually hate the night, so Luna was tricked into acting that way.

 

TL;DR: Nightmare Moon isn't evil but Nightmare Magic is and it created/was controlling her.

 

Forgive me for my naivety, but are the comics directly related to the show?  Meaning, are the comics made by the same people who write the show, or are they just fan works?

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@,
They are officially published Hasbro merchandise, the comics are as official as you can get with there being different writers and them working with the show writers. Some may argue it is a different 'level' of canon though.

Edited January 5, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[OmegaPony 18]

Nightmare Moon is evil, but Luna herself is not.

[RainbowTashie 378]

i don't think luna was that evil being. Who wants their work to go unappreciated which is indirectly what happened whilst the ponies were asleep, But NMM was pure evil that's the point.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

The real question that should be asked is what the consequences of "eternal night" would be on Equestria. I honestly find it hard to believe that everything would die in a world with so much magic. According to the opening cinematic, Nightmare Moon wasn't disallowing Celestia from doing stuff, so if anything she'd be able to personally help grow crops. And that assumes that Nightmare Moon really wanted the night to last forever rather than probably just stopping the whole thing after the ponies get the message. All she wanted was recognition after all.

 

I've always thought that she should hactually have done the exact opposite 1000 years ago, just saying "No, if you ponies shun my beautiful night like that then you aren't getting it anymore. I'm not raising the moon until you appreciate me. The day will last forever."

[Tom Snyder 4,112]

The real question that should be asked is what the consequences of "eternal night" would be on Equestria. I honestly find it hard to believe that everything would die in a world with so much magic. According to the opening cinematic, Nightmare Moon wasn't disallowing Celestia from doing stuff, so if anything she'd be able to personally help grow crops. And that assumes that Nightmare Moon really wanted the night to last forever rather than probably just stopping the whole thing after the ponies get the message. All she wanted was recognition after all.

 

I've always thought that she should actually have done the exact opposite 1000 years ago, just saying "No, if you ponies shun my beautiful night like that then you aren't getting it anymore. I'm not raising the moon until you appreciate me. The day will last forever."

I don't see that doing much good.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I don't see that doing much good.

What do you mean exactly?

[Tom Snyder 4,112]

Even if she did, i don't think the ponies would have much love for her in the end of it. But i could be wrong though.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Even if she did, i don't think the ponies would have much love for her in the end of it. But i could be wrong though.

Not really sure what your point is.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

I don't think there's much doubt that at least some of Nightmare Moon's motives stem from evil--jealousy, resentment, hatred--that's reason enough for Celestia and the Mane 6 to oppose her.

 

At the same time, she was an enigmatic figure who was defeated in a single evening, so we never got a chance to see what her rule would have actually been like (several fanfics address this in a very interesting manner). In particular, I think we get a little bit carried away with the "night will last forever" = DYING PLANTS STARVATION GENOCIDE ARRRRGH. Let's step back for a second and remember: this is a cartoon. Real world logic and science do not apply unless the writers want them to. For one thing we don't know if eternal night was Nightmare Moon's actual intent or simply a metaphor. For another, how do we know it would have had any consequences in the MLP universe besides it simply being dark out all the time? 

 

I mean, look at Discord. When he spread chaos throughout Ponyville, exactly how deep did that chaos go? Where did it begin and end? Could Discord manipulate the laws of physics at will or was he simply inducing hallucinations? Did it stop at chocolate rain and the Mane 6 betraying their elements, or was it physiological as well? Did it cause the pony's cells to stop reproducing? Did it play havoc with their molecules and cause them to disintegrate? Did Discord commit mass murder? MILLIONS OF PONIES COULD HAVE DIED AND WE DIDN'T SEE IT! 

 

...Except that it's a cartoon, and was never meant to be analyzed like that. So I choose to disregard the "eternal night" thing in this case. I still have a lot of basic questions about the whole NM era that the show never answered. All we really got was Celestia's explanation, not Luna's. History is written by the winners. Who's to say Celestia wasn't also to blame for what went wrong?