Is Celestia really the right ruler for the job?

[Buck Testa 5,505]

You know Buck Norris, Celestia is a priveleged white mare. She also happened to banish her darker sister from her kingdom for attempting to usurp her power. Don't you think that might send a bad message?

I'm kind of stuck on my new potential user name, give me a sec....

 

....alright, to answer: That would only send a bad message to those looking for the message to be bad, and would have no baring on the idealistic setting as a whole because the color of ones coat has never come into play discrimination wise. Not that there are no racial tensions in mlp (I mean look how the whole Zecora thing went down) but that hardly qualifies as one of them. 

[Roughshod 719]

I'm kind of stuck on my new potential user name, give me a sec....

 

....alright, to answer: That would only send a bad message to those looking for the message to be bad, and would have no baring on the idealistic setting as a whole because the color of ones coat has never come into play discrimination wise. Not that there are no racial tensions in mlp (I mean look how the whole Zecora thing went down) but that hardly qualifies as one of them.

 

Oh Buckapalooza, I meant in regards to viewers in the real world and how they might interpret the Celestia-Luna rift as having possible racial subtext. Because it's possible, in fact it's plausible.

 

There's the whole gender thing as well but I've already argued that to death with Shimmer5000 and Sunny Fox. At least I think it was them. It's in my post history anyway.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

Oh Buckapalooza, I meant in regards to viewers in the real world and how they might interpret the Celestia-Luna rift as having possible racial subtext. Because it's possible, in fact it's plausible.

 

There's the whole gender thing as well but I've already argued that to death with Shimmer5000 and Sunny Fox. At least I think it was them. It's in my post history anyway.

Aye, and again I say that interpretation would only come to those who are looking for it in the first place, because as I said it has no in show basis for it besides that superficial observation. 

 

As for the gender thing I have a hunch they are going to give male characters a bit more screen time next season so that may alleviate the "Female Master race" vibe the show has at times lol. 

[Celli 4,338]

Equestria is in a sort of Semi-Medieval setting(with a few minor exceptions), so do you honestly think a realistic Democracy or Republic would fit in with the setting of the show? I personally think it would seem kind of out of place. That said, if the Journal of the Two Sisters are any indication, and are indeed canon, they were chosen in a sort democratic way, a la the U.S. and are not Monarchs, as Monarchs are usually ascended to the throne by way of blood heritage: as in, taking over your father's/mother's throne as king/queen. As for the fact of people thinking that the show seems a bit racist with Celestia banishing Luna with Tia being a white mare, and Luna is darker, I find that silly, and it doesn't even make sense. Now, if you switch Luna with someone like Zecora, who is a Zebra, or Gilda, who is a griffon, then that argument would seem plausible, because The Equestrian ponies are basically the whites, while some might compare Zebras with African-Americans. and Griffons some other race, perhaps of Asian culture/race. Now, if you were to put any other pony in Celestia's place, I personally think you could pretty much make the same argument.

But those are just my thoughts. I don't pretend to think that Celestia does a perfect job, I mean, she's been doing it for over 1000 years, and I think regardless of how old you can get, I'd think it would still make anyone tired.

But still, before Luna returned, she seemed to do an o.k. job protecting Equestria by herself. Then again, we don't know if there were any threats between that time.

Anyway, sorry for the long wall of text. I've never really typed this much. Just giving my thoughts.

[WindyParadise 59]

You know Buck Norris, Celestia is a priveleged white mare. She also happened to banish her darker sister from their kingdom for attempting to become the one and only ruler along with attempting to bring about eternal darkness over the world or at least Equestria. Don't you think that might send a bad message?

 

Fixed that for you. 

 

Now that we can see what actually happened instead of the cut-off version you had. No, I do not think stopping eternal darkness and dark magic is a bad message for kids or for people in general. I wouldn't want to live under the moon for as long as I live if I used to live under the moon and sun.

Edited November 23, 2014 by WindyParadise

[Applejackbumper 13]

I like Celestia. She's defiantly not my favorite, but I hate Princess Cadence and Luna is awesome and Twilight just isn't ready for something like that.

In my opinion, the only reason Celestia seems like the head ruler is because she controls day and that when everypony is awake, but she defiantly shares an equal job with Luna, it just isn't too obvious since Luna controls night and that is when everypony is sleeping.

[Singe 2,111]

Equestria Girls says that Celestia is fine with having threats go to another dimension. It's their problem now.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Singe

[WindyParadise 59]

Equestria Girls says that Celestia is fine with having threats go to another dimension. It's their problem now.

 

What else did you expect her to do? Send some ponies over to a dimension very different from their own and hope they don't end up being killed or accidentally helping whatever is over there discover the portal, possibly leading to a war?

 

I got the impression that Celestia thought Sunset Shimmer was dead or at least content to stay on her side of the portal. One would think she would mention the lack of talking ponies and non-existent magic to Twilight if she knew about it.

[Jeric 46,851]

Guys,

 

The FiM Team had to do some clean up in here already due to this topic getting overly aggressive with the discussion. Debating issues with the show is a great way to delve deeper into themes and characters ... but when it crosses over to becoming personal ... we don't allow that. 

 

If it continues we will temporarily lock the thread. 

[WindyParadise 59]

Well, it is a tense topic to discuss. To easy for some one to get offended, I'm sorry if I added to that. 

[Roughshod 719]

Guys,

 

The FiM Team had to do some clean up in here already due to this topic getting overly aggressive with the discussion. Debating issues with the show is a great way to delve deeper into themes and characters ... but when it crosses over to becoming personal ... we don't allow that. 

 

If it continues we will temporarily lock the thread. 

 

 

I feel partially responsible for this.  I'll try to refrain from running roughshod too much from now on.

 

 

 

BUT I STILL SAY THAT CELESTIA SERIOUSLY NEEDS A PERFORMANCE REVIEW!

 

So what if she was appointed by the three tribes and Star Swirl the Bearded? Is absolutism automatically justfied because it's attained democratically? That's nonsense. That's like saying a robbery is justified because the victim opted for it. What about the people who will be affected by the act who weren't given a choice?

 

Celestia is not omnipotent or omniscient, it's been shown that she can be overpowered and lacks knowledge in areas where others may possess it. What reasonable justification is there for her ruling a thousand years over an entire nation and continuing to partially rule it? Not enough if you ask me. She's aight but she isn't all that.

 

Perhaps a poll should be taken on this issue? That would be much more democratic.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Roughshod

[Emmathebrony 20]

Disclaimer: I am still in the first season..BUT

 

I don't trust her.  For example I don't think she was taking Twilight's warning seriously in the very first episode, I think she didn't have faith that her sister would really be able to escape.  Her explainations are too convienant and I don't like her.

 

p.s. didn't see the notice till jut now sorry.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Emmathebrony

[Singe 2,111]

Celestia and Luna origins might be they were one of the three tribes. Then some magical contract, event, or something that established the Alicorn, the equivalent of a God-King.

[They call me Loyalty 1,948]

It could just lazy character development, or probably something amazing, like she's actually the main villain. Boom!

I'll go with laziness, though.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

No other pony in all of Equestria has proven themselves more capable then Princess Celestia, nor does any other pony have the positive track record and overall ruling experience that this mare does. In addition, I feel it reasonable that if the diarch of the sun was now seen by her subjects as worthy of her crown they would have asked her to step down or try to overthrow her in a thousand years she ruled alone. It would be impossible for any other pony to be as qualified, experienced, and wise as Celestia since no other pony has ruled for a 1000 plus years!

 

Given all this, I say without a shadow of a doubt Princess Celestia has proven herself the right mare for the job. In addition, now that her sister has return, Equestria can finally be the dualistic diarchy it was intended to be with Princess Luna ruling by her older sister's side as the guardians and teachers of ponykind who watch over their subjects with dedication.

[Roughshod 719]

No other pony in all of Equestria has proven themselves more capable then Princess Celestia, nor does any other pony have the positive track record and overall ruling experience that this mare does. In addition, I feel it reasonable that if the diarch of the sun was now seen by her subjects as worthy of her crown they would have asked her to step down or try to overthrow her in a thousand years she ruled alone. It would be impossible for any other pony to be as qualified, experienced, and wise as Celestia since no other pony has ruled for a 1000 plus years!

 

Given all this, I say without a shadow of a doubt Princess Celestia has proven herself the right mare for the job. In addition, now that her sister has return, Equestria can finally be the dualistic diarchy it was intended to be with Princess Luna ruling by her older sister's side as the guardians and teachers of ponykind who watch over their subjects with dedication.

I really don't see how there is substantial evidence to back your claim. You presume that because Celestia has "ruled" over Equestria for a thousand years and that Equestria has apparently prospered during this time that the former is necessarily the cause of the latter. Unfortunately there is not enough evidence to support this claim because any information regarding Celestia's level of involvement and influence on the functioning of Equestria is not given enough focus so you're just talking out of your rump. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

 

And you also state that because Celestia has ruled for as long as she has, and is apparently the only recognizable ruler that Equestria has ever had, that she inherently proves herself the most qualified candidate. This is nothing more than a circular argument. You might as well say she's the best because she's the best and it would have as much substance. If the only standard for someone's ability to rule is their age then that's just nonsensical ageism and discrimination, and experience isn't everything. There's no way you can know that somepony else wouldn't be just as qualified as Celestia is at governing because it's a undemocratic system that doesn't allow frequent changes in leadership.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

 

Dualistic diarchy it was intended to be? Wow, I'm so glad that we have you here to shed your exclusive insight on the political destiny of a fictional world. If Equestria was always meant to be a "diarchy" then why was it able to supposedly prosper so much with Luna banished to the moon? It would seem Equestria doesn't really need princess Luna around when Celestia can raise both the sun and moon. However just because I said that doesn't mean I agree she's the best possible ruler, I don't believe sheer magical prowess is an indicator or precondition for governing ability. Trixie in the episode 'Magic Duel'(S3,E5) is a prime example of this.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

 

If Equestria was not what it was meant to be for over a thousand years and both Celestia(for banishing her sister) and Luna(for betraying her sister, causing her banishment) were responsible for this then that would clearly contradict your earlier statement that they are the ideal rulers. The fact is Luna jeopardized the security of their kingdom by virtue of her petty jealousy.

 

Celestia can be considered the best ruler for Equestria largely because she's been the only ruler of Equestria, not counting villains like Discord and Sombra who are clearly painted in a negative light for characterization. It's also important to consider that there is very little known about the actual details of her tenure other than that everything seems to be mostly okay most of the time except for when a crisis emerges and she gets Twilight and Co. to deal with it. How outstanding.

 

Since Celestia is obviously not a villain and intended to symbolize a motherly role model to be emulated it's obvious why the creators would try to give her practically zero flaws and present her as perfect. Certainly it's an easy way to avoid any actual development for her despite making her somewhat boring in the eyes of many. But the thing with perfection is that it's entirely subjective, and Celestia's character, and her position as the matriarch, qualifies as anything but perfect to me.

[Aly 77]

Heckkkkk yes. No one can replace Princess Celestia.

[Roughshod 719]

Heckkkkk yes. No one can replace Princess Celestia.

Replace? Sure you could, just bust out the old Mirror Pool.

 

Actually I'd rather have a pony that surpassed Celestia in some way than just a replacement. If you're just going to use a fill-in then you may as well stick with the original.

[~Silver Essence~ 2,625]

For a royal princess who's ruled for 1,000 years, created peace through ponyville, prisoned her sister out of her safety and everyone despite the guilt and depression she felt, and a motherly and kind hearted mare to not be considered right for the job?

 

Is saying alot, I do think she's fit and well despite any slight criticism and weaknesses she may have

[ThatOneComrade 1,091]

BLASPHEMER! PAY FOR YOUR SINS AGAINST THE HOLY SUN! MAY SHE SMITE YOU WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE!

 

 Naw, but seriously: I can see where you're coming from. I just don't agree with it. Celestia, I think, is the best mare for the job. Anyone who's willing to banish her own sister for the benefit of thousands and those yet to be born, despite how she may feel, deserves it. Anyone whose first words, when defeated and practically paralyzed by a stronger opponent, are "The Elements of Harmony. You must get to them and use their power to defeat the queen." instead of helping her, deserves it. Anyone who can deal with those darn nobles up in Canterlot for a millennium, with no one to relate to or open herself to, while simultaneously bringing an era of peace that will likely never be matched again, deserves that position.

 

Sure, it's clear that Celestia has some odd ways of teaching, but so did Mr. Miyagi (Wax on, wax off, anyone?) and Daniel did alright. I'm not gonna write her off as a bad ruler just because of that and a few other flaws in the plot. She only does what she does to teach Twi, or because the almighty writers called for it. Sun-butt's good in my book.

[HunterTSN 1,444]

No leader is perfect, yet she seems to have mostly held things together for at least a thousand years or so, that has to count for something right?

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

No, she pretty much acts like a complete idiot or is completely useless when things get bad. She also has proven several times to be horrible at security. Notice how almost every villain on the show is a problem due to her not locking them away securely? Yeah, in the real world someone would get fired for that lol.

[WindyParadise 59]

No, she pretty much acts like a complete idiot or is completely useless when things get bad. She also has proven several times to be horrible at security. Notice how almost every villain on the show is a problem due to her not locking them away securely? Yeah, in the real world someone would get fired for that lol.

Which Villian do you mean? NMM? Tirek? King Sombra?

NMM was trapped on the Moon for a thousand years due to limitations of using the EoH with only one person.

Discord was turned to stone and kept mostly secluded from any possible escape routes(all of which were unlikely to be known). Similar reason as NMM as the EoH can't kill or permantly imprison somepony.

King Sombra was defeated but cursed the Crystal Empire to disappear for a long time, not much you can do about that unless you want to go looking in the northern wastelands for him if he was still around waiting for the C-Empire to come back if he didn't disappear with it.

Tirek was in Tartarus until the guard dog left for some random reason. As far as Celestia knew, he was secured and locked up.

 

Any major villians I missed? Not seeing how she failed at keeping her Kingdom safe with the resources she had.

[Sunny Fox 5,950]

Which Villian do you mean? NMM? Tirek? King Sombra?

NMM was trapped on the Moon for a thousand years due to limitations of using the EoH with only one person.

Discord was turned to stone and kept mostly secluded from any possible escape routes(all of which were unlikely to be known). Similar reason as NMM as the EoH can't kill or permantly imprison somepony.

King Sombra was defeated but cursed the Crystal Empire to disappear for a long time, not much you can do about that unless you want to go looking in the northern wastelands for him if he was still around waiting for the C-Empire to come back if he didn't disappear with it.

Tirek was in Tartarus until the guard dog left for some random reason. As far as Celestia knew, he was secured and locked up.

 

Any major villians I missed? Not seeing how she failed at keeping her Kingdom safe with the resources she had.

Discord was turned to stone and then placed in the Canterlot Sculpture Garden, letting whosoever pleases have access to him. Celestia even admits that she took it for granted that the spell would be permanent. Given how much of a threat and how powerful he was, putting him on display in public seems just a tad careless. He should have been buried somewhere nopony would ever have access to him. 

 

As for Sombra, while his reappearance was not something she could control, Luna offered to go with Twilight to help her, or even as backup in case Twilight failed, and Celestia turned her down. I mean, props for having faith in your star pupil (plus friends and brother and sister-in-law), but Luna as a backup plan still makes a whole lot of sense.

 

And with Tirek, after she already knew he was free, (negating your point about Cerberus) she again showed no understanding of the concept of "backup plan", putting all her trust in Discord(?!), pretty much just accepting that Fluttershy had managed to permanently make him a good guy. Look how well that turned out.

 

Any major villians I missed? The Changeling Queen.

[sweetolebob18 728]

I've said this elsewhere & I'll say it again.  One of my few surviving political opinions is that the ruler matters a lot more than the exact form of government.  I will point out that the 2 most absolute dictatorships in history are Heaven -and Hell.

 

It's difficult to say, but Princess C seems to be a wise & benevolent leader.  Hey, vote in the poll in Trollestia.

 

That being said, she is MUCH more the subtle, behind-the-scene-manipulator, than the Rule By Decree type.  IMO, it was no coincidence that the Mane 6 were there to help Twilight.  Think about it.  She could have chosen anywhere in EQ to hold the ceremony, brought in any entertainment she wanted, the finest chefs in the land for the food (no disrespect to AJ, but her food is for gourmands not gourmets), etc.  Instead, The Mane 6 "just happened" to be there.

 

Yeah, these days her style is "get Twilight to do it"  So, who was it picked T out in the 1st place? And trained her?  "Just Happened", no doubt