The ultimate Manipulator?

[Silver Stream. 708]

I'm aware that Discord might be the first to come to mind....and while he remains my favorite antagonist in the series, I don't think he would serve as the #1 trickster despite him being the best to pull off that image. Twice he's been manipulated. Tirek did it.......and...Fluttershy.

 

Yep, there's more to Flutters that meets the eye. Half the time I wonder why she isn't my favorite Pony since I pay so much attention on her and seem to always ramble about her. And while she remains only a third favorite me, she still manages to surprise me the more I discover in her episodes.

 

She manipulates Discord. And at times I begin to think she blackmails him as well. In "Keep Calm and Flutter On" she basically shows Discord friendship. When he began to take advantage of this, the Mane 5 question Fluttershy if she truly trusts him. She clearly says she doesn't, but tries to give him the benefit of a doubt. Discord chooses wrong, but then realizes that if he takes the wrong path, he wouldn't continue to receive the care and friendship from Fluttetshy which forces him to meet her demands of reforming.

 

And then there's the time when the Mane 6 gave up the elements of harmony....but even then Discord submits when Fluttershy threatens to end their friendship.

 

I find this....clever but scary at the same time. You'd expect this from Tirek and other villains like Chrysalis and The Sirens..... hell you could even expect it from Rarity (but Rarity babe wouldn't go that far). But you wouldn't expect this from Fluttershy.

 

She basically allowed Discord to experience something that made him feel good....and after he had a taste of friendship, she basically trapped him to want it enough where he'd "reform" just for the sake of that friendship. I'm super sure this wasn't Fluttershy's intention...she's way too sweet to actually have that sort of mindset but regardless, that's basically what she did.

 

Would anyone else agree? Or disagree? Just curious for your opinions c:

[RarityFan01 2,444]

I don't think Fluttershy's motivations are manipulation, though. I may not be a Fluttershy fan, but I can't accept that Fluttershy is secretly evil and just pretends to be shy or anything. I think she genuinely doesn't intend to manipulate and is successful in the same way a cute dog is successful at manipulating. That dog isn't manipulative or evil. But it's hard to resist those cute eyes. (I'm good at it. I care too much about my dogs to make them sick.)

[Silver Stream. 708]

 

I don't think Fluttershy's motivations are manipulation, though. I may not be a Fluttershy fan, but I can't accept that Fluttershy is secretly evil and just pretends to be shy or anything. I thinkgenuinely doesn't intend to manipulate and is successful in the same way a cute dog is successful at manipulating. That dog isn't manipulative or evil. But it's hard to resist those cute eyes. (I'm good at it. I care too much about my dogs to make them sick.)

Just going to respond to that with this:

 

 

I'm super sure this wasn't Fluttershy's intention...she's way too sweet to actually have that sort of mindset but regardless, that's basically what she did.

Would anyone else agree? Or disagree? Just curious for your opinions c:

Which is why I said this. Again.....I do not think she purposely had that mindset. But that's basically what happened. Edited October 28, 2015 by Princess Sunset

[PROJECT: Simon 3,953]

It's Fluttershy's attraction, that's all ^3^

[Silver Stream. 708]

Fluttershy attraction, manipulation....whatever you wish to calk it. I'd do anything for Flutters in a second <3

 

WHO COULD SAY NO TO THAT FACE? Well..... I guess a few people....but I'm not strong enough

[Sporemane 546]

Fluttershy scares me now. In Tanks for the Memories she made Rainbow Dash cry! If you cross Fluttershy you better watch out.

[TeaCrumpet 27]

Fluttershy is manipulative, but sadly the word has only become known for its more negative aspects. If one thinks long enough, Fluttershy deals with personal interaction with discord as she would with any of her wild animals, she makes sure to be in the alpha set at all times and is the one dictating the rules of interaction. While she will allow Discord enough room to explore and mess up, she won't allow him rule of the roost since, by doing so will only cause utter chaos and disaster for everyone involved. I think people need to see this type of manipulation closer to  something like Pinkie manipulating a new recipe to bake in her favor rather then some-kind of evil plot of evilness. In fact, most of her girls have manipulated things to turn out in their favors and that is not a bad thing, why chance to luck, when you can make sure the outcome you want is 100% for sure.  

[Sidral Mundet 1,666]

While I like the idea of Fluttershy being sort of the Batman of the group (ie a strategist that tends to play the long game, heck I even wrote a fanfic like that)  I disagree with the idea that she manipulated Discord in Keep Calm and Flutter On (and not just because it's my favorite episode)  Here's the thing, Discord was destroying property and causing havoc.  Sure it was on a smaller scale than normal, but still not a good thing.  For example, say you befriended someone and they turned out to be an arsonist, are you going to just say "Yeah well he's/she's burning houses and ruining lifes, but I sort of like them, so I'll totally let that go" or do you take a stance as say that you won't be apart to that and that's pretty much what Fluttershy did, heck Fluttershy gave Discord a ton of leeway as well, as this was also after Discord betrayed Fluttershy's trust with the promise she made.  So I don't think it was manipulation on Fluttershy's part because you should be able to call out your friends when they're doing something wrong (though to be fair the dialog isn't KCaFO's strong suit) .  

That being said I do like that you could look at it that Fluttershy followed her promise, that she wouldn't use her element against him and in turn she was no longer kind to Discord when he didn't follow through on fixing the farm, 

[BPCannon 193]

Not manipulative in a sinister way, She's just adaptable. When you're very shy, you can't depend on usual methods of persuasion - assertiveness, charisma, confidence, or just plain getting people to follow your lead by convincing them you know exactly what your doing even when you don't

 

So only options are fade into the background entirely, or quietly manipulate. It's actually another example of good character writing that Flutters has been handled this way

 

I'm still hoping that Celestia is the number 1 manipulator though, she hasn't been anywhere near as OP as she should be, and holding herself back for the purpose of testing and developing the elements of harmony is the only explanation that sits well with me

[Silver Stream. 708]

Fluttershy is manipulative, but sadly the word has only become known for its more negative aspects. If one thinks long enough, Fluttershy deals with personal interaction with discord as she would with any of her wild animals, she makes sure to be in the alpha set at all times and is the one dictating the rules of interaction. While she will allow Discord enough room to explore and mess up, she won't allow him rule of the roost since, by doing so will only cause utter chaos and disaster for everyone involved. I think people need to see this type of manipulation closer to  something like Pinkie manipulating a new recipe to bake in her favor rather then some-kind of evil plot of evilness. In fact, most of her girls have manipulated things to turn out in their favors and that is not a bad thing, why chance to luck, when you can make sure the outcome you want is 100% for sure.

 

I'm going to quote this because this is basically my thoughts exactly.

 

Guys....manipulation doesn't automatically mean something evil or even bad. Before you jump into thinking I'm calling Fluttershy out as some evil mastermind, read thoroughly through my first post where I mentioned that she didn't have the mindset to purposely manipulate him.

 

Think of it this way: Fluttershy was lenient on Discord to give him space. To pretty much give him something he has never gotten from anyone: benefit of a doubt. She gave him friendship. And he liked it because he's never had it. That's like allowing someone to taste a slice of cake. Then when it comes down to it, she made a promise to not use her element on him and allowed him to do whatever he wanted...but IF he did....she would stop being his friend. She would take away that slice of cake.

 

Notice how he said "well played Fluttershy"? Because she pretty much had him wrapped around her hoof at that point.

 

When the ponies gave up the elements, Discord could have gone crazy again. But why didn't he? Flutters threatens to end their friendship. Being friends with Fluttershy is like a reward for him....

 

 

Sure it wasn't intentional, but that's what happened. Fluttershy isn't even bad for doing it. A spirit of chaos like that needs to get an approach like that anyway. Certain people cause for different methods. A good kid only has to be told once to do something and that's good. A bad kid might need reverse psychology or need to be bribed with a reward....ETC. That's manipulation as well. Doesn't mean the intention behind it is evil

[Jangocoolguy 433]

Fluttershy attraction, manipulation....whatever you wish to calk it. I'd do anything for Flutters in a second <3

 

WHO COULD SAY NO TO THAT FACE? Well..... I guess a few people....but I'm not strong enough

Prime example/case in point:

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Jangobadass

[BPCannon 193]

Just thinking, it is actually shown that manipulation is her go to. When she has the CMC's staying over (Stare Master) before we get to the whole staring down a cockatrice thing and the crusaders following her instructions out of admiration. The first tactic she tries is - let's play a game called who can stay quiet the longest "I'm the world champion, I bet you can't beat me"

 

It doesn't exactly work out, but disguising what she wants them to do as a game, and adding the I bet you can't beat me challenge, is all manipulation tactics, in abscence of being able to just bark orders at them

[J. Brony 313]

Fluttershy can be very convincing when she wants to be, but in a nice, almost parental way.  Outside of Putting Your Hoof Down, she hasn't gotten her way by being cruel or devious.  I think, deep down, she knows how to read people and convince them to do what is right.  All too often, she's just too shy to actually do it.  It's usually in some kind of tense situation, like with Discord and the dragon in Dragonshy, that Fluttershy finds the nerve to step up and say exactly what a person needs to hear.

[Silver Stream. 708]

Fluttershy can be very convincing when she wants to be, but in a nice, almost parental way.  Outside of Putting Your Hoof Down, she hasn't gotten her way by being cruel or devious.  I think, deep down, she knows how to read people and convince them to do what is right.  All too often, she's just too shy to actually do it.  It's usually in some kind of tense situation, like with Discord and the dragon in Dragonshy, that Fluttershy finds the nerve to step up and say exactly what a person needs to hear.

 

Well said. Which is why Flutters is perhaps the most interesting and complex character out of all of the mane 6. Because there could be so much more than we see...and I seem to find something new or different about her character every time I rewatch something of hers. She may deserve more credit than we actually give her. 

[pony.colin 156]

Oh it's been a while since I've thought about 'Keep Calm and Flutter on'. I really did like how this episode set itself up with an intriguing turn of events and the intent of certain characters played out here.

 

First though I would like to examine things in context of this episode and would like delay saying what constitutes as being manipulative at this point.

 

Remember the whole basis of this episode first. Discord's statue was personally brought by Princess Celestia herself and it was of course with specific motive and intention (this is one of the few times, I actually understand Celestia's decision in this in the long run and I actually think its one of her better decisions, even if it ended up backfiring in the long run. But hey, her reasoning for this decision was more well thought out compared to her other strange decisions that she has made in the series).

 

I will pull up the transcript here:

 

Twilight Sparkle: With all due respect, Princess Celestia, how could you bring Discord here?! [clears throat] Your majesty.

Princess Celestia: I'm fully aware that the last time Discord was here, he created serious havoc.

Rainbow Dash: If by "serious havoc" you mean "turning Ponyville into the chaos capital of the world"...

Rarity: ...and tricking us all into being the opposite of our true selves...

Pinkie Pie: And making yummy delicious chocolate milk rain all over the place without a single dollop of whipped cream to go with it anywhere in sight! Not a single dollop!

Princess Celestia: Yes, I understand. But I have use for Discord's magic if it can be reformed to serve good instead of evil. This is why I've brought Discord here, because I believe that you are the ponies who can help him do just that. (the important note!)

Spike: This will never work! This is a disaster! How will we ever control him?! We're doomed!  

 

Now let us consider a few things. Discord's chaotic magic, is as far as I can tell, is limitless. Maybe unstoppable even. You have to consider that the lord of chaos, can literally do anything, bend reality to his whim and do a whole lot of stuff that may not be feasible in the “in-universe” regular magic of ponykind. Not to say Discord's chaotic magic can't be outbeaten (of course Friendship was able to turn Twilight and her friends back to normal), but Discord's magical power can do almost anything as far as we can tell and its still quite powerful in consideration. We don't actually know what he can or can't do with his magical power and we don't actually know if its limited in any certain way. The possibilities with chaotic magic could potentially be endless. This means that his chaotic magical power could potentially provide the best offensive, and the best defensive capabilities, if used in the right way. And you have to consider one other major thing. Discord seemed virtually impossible to beat if you look back at when Twilight has her flashbacks.   Remember in the episode of 'Princess Twilight Sparkle – part 2'   This was what Celestia specifically said:  

 

Princess Celestia: We have managed to discover the only means by which we can defeat Discord and free the citizens of Equestria. Even without these elements, the Tree of Harmony will possess a powerful magic. As long as that magic remains, it will continue to control and contain all that grows here.  

 

Of course later:  

 

Discord: Oh, this is so much fun. How about a game of 'Pin the Tail on the Pony'?

 

Princess Celestia: [gasp] Play time is over for you, Discord.

Discord: Oh, I doubt that. [munching] Hungry? Suit yourselves. Oh! What have you got there?

Princess Celestia: The Elements of Harmony.

Princess Luna: With them, we shall defeat you.

Twilight Sparkle: This must be when they turned Discord into stone.  

 

I would say based off of the flashbacks, Celestia and Luna weren't really capable of defeating Discord on their own because he could probably blunt their attacks with his chaotic magic. He can bend reality and just mess around with his opponents, he doesn't have to fight directly if he doesn't want. So he can be the typical lord of chaos that is not bounded by any sort of rules and regulations.  

 

BUT the elements of harmony (such an OP weapon, pls nerf lulz), as demonstrated, are the only magical items that are capable of stoning Discord and putting him in a statue prison. They are literally the only thing that stopped him during his short reign of chaotic terror.

 

Now let me put this a little bit more into order and perspective. Up until 'Keep Calm and Flutter On' Discord was still stoned and trapped in his prison. They still had the elements of harmony with them and could have chosen the option to NOT release Discord and could have just kept it at that, no immediate danger. However, this is where I praise Celestia for having some reasonable thinking for once (at least compared to her other decisions). Celestia actually thought about the long-term situation for once. Yeah we have the elements of harmony now and currently, but what happens if there comes a situation where we won't have the elements of harmony to call upon to defend us? What happens if there comes a time when we can't rely on the elements of harmony for whatever reason? What then happens? Well, what if we have a back-up plan/back-up asset. What if we have an ally, who is quite powerful and quite capable of turning the tables on things. A power magical being that can bend reality and potentially neutralize major threats with relative ease. What if we have that as our a back-up, or at least something to compliment our current defences, just in case. And this where we have the diplomacy or “softcore-methods” of be-friending potential allies.

 

(Okay, now you're wondering, where is Fluttershy in all of this giant wall of text?) Well now that we know the background context, we should consider how this fits into a social context of obligations, expectations and social relations as well. Now consider some of the lines that Fluttershy says during KCAFO:

 

Princess Celestia: I realize that this is a tall order, but I wouldn't ask if I weren't confident you could get him to use magic obediently of his own free will.

Fluttershy: And... you really think I'll know best how to do that?

Princess Celestia: I do. Now, I must return to Canterlot for Equestria's royal summit. You may release Discord when ready.  

 

(later...)

Twilight Sparkle: You sure you're okay with this?

Fluttershy: I know it's not gonna be easy, but Princess Celestia's counting on me. And... I think I actually know what to do.   And later:  

Fluttershy: I think the key is to befriend him. Being kind to him and letting him be my house guest is probably the best way to do that.

Twilight Sparkle: And you really think that'll work?

Fluttershy: I think it's worth a try.  

 

And also (though you get the point already):  

Fluttershy: If I'm going to be his friend, I have to start by giving him the benefit of the doubt! Tell you what. Bring all the ponies over for a dinner party this evening, and I'll bet his manners will have really improved by then. I'll even get him to put the cottage back on the ground first.  

 

 

The main point that I'm trying to get at here goes back to the first quote here when she mentions Celestia. Fluttershy understands and realizes that she has been asked an important favour (or given a special task) by Princess Celestia of trying to 'befriend' Discord. This is a unique situation but it relies on social relations altogether. If you were asked to help in a favour by a friend, or someone you highly respect, and they believe you are capable of performing the task, would you try to help them? Its probably difficult for Fluttershy to say no to Princess Celestia about this, and realizes what is at stake here as well for this circumstance. The sense of having some social obligations and duty are displayed. Fluttershy understands that she's not just a common pegasus, she is the wielder of the 'element of kindness' and has been called upon at various times to defend Equestria against potential dangers. She is unique among her social relationships with important royal dignitaries, few could say there ever as close to royalty as Fluttershy except with her own close circle of friends. She understands and identifies with her social obligation and duty as being a guardian to Equestrian society and that this task being asked by Princess Celestia is considered of utmost importance to the security of Equestria. And it seems, Fluttershy agrees with Celestia that befriending Discord would prove to beneficial in the long run to ponykind and probably internalizes this as her important obligation to Equestrian society, the monarchy and civic duty to the country. Now we get a sense of why Fluttershy is doing this in the first place. She has committed herself to this important task because she identifies with it, she is trying to fulfil her obligations to proceed with this plan.  

 

And she goes about it, by trying to befriend Discord in her own way. Fluttershy is of course aware during the whole episode that Discord is acting reckless, chaotically, irresponsible and trying to get his own during the episode by antagonizing Fluttershy's friends.  

 

Rainbow Dash: You see Discord's behind all this, right?

Fluttershy: Oh, of course I do! Do you all think I'm a silly, gullible fool?

Rarity: Only in the sense of being silly and gullible...

Pinkie Pie: [simultaneously] Um, well...

Applejack: [simultaneously] Uh... uh, no, not exactly...

Fluttershy: I've just been trying to gain his friendship any way I can, so he'd come to trust and listen to me!

Discord: Hey there, Fluttershy, you want a turn? The water's great!

Fluttershy: Time to see if it worked.    

 

But she is trying to earn his trust, she is trying to give benefit of the doubt mostly, until it comes down to, 'I'll give up something for you, in order to really show you that I'm genuine in trying to be your friend'. She promises to never use her element against Discord, and this is where this whole situation is so important (this is really the major climax that blew me away).  

 

Fluttershy: As you can see, there's a big mess down here at Sweet Apple Acres.

Discord: Oh, yes. Awful business, that. Mm.

Fluttershy: It is awful. This is Applejack's home, and it's being destroyed by innocent creatures who would never be acting this way if it weren't for your reckless behavior. You need to fix this.

Discord: Oh, yes, very well, I will fix it. I only ask one thing in return.

Fluttershy: Yes?

Discord: I ask that you never use your Element of Harmony against me. As a sign of our friendship. [necks squeaking]

Fluttershy: I will never use my Element of Harmony against you.

Discord: Excellent! [snaps fingers] There, much better! I do prefer ice skating to water skiing! Don't you? [humming] [nonexistent crowd cheering]

Fluttershy: Discord! That's not fixing it! Why, I oughta...

Discord: Where are you going? What's wrong, pal?

Fluttershy: Don't call me your pal!

Discord: Oh, pfft, come skating with me, and we'll let bygones be bygones.

Spike: Here you go, Fluttershy! Game on!

Twilight Sparkle: He fixes this or he goes back to being stone! Princess Celestia will understand! [suspenseful pause]

Fluttershy: I made a promise not to use my element against him, and I'm going to keep it.

Pinkie Pie: [gasps]

Applejack and Rainbow Dash: [groans]

Discord: Hahah! You see? She wants to have fun with me because we're friends. She can't use the elements against me because we're friends. I'm free forever! [laughs]

Fluttershy: [growls] Not. Your. Friend!

Discord: Who cares? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. I'm Discord, the master of chaos! You think you can boss Discord around? You think I'm just going to turn all this back because you say so? Because if I don't, I'll lose the one friend I ever had? [pause] Oh. Oh. Well played, Fluttershy. Well played. [magic noises]

Main cast sans Fluttershy: [cheering]

Discord: I liked it better my way, but... I guess when you're friends, you can't always have things exactly your way all the time, eh?

 

Discord: Yes, Princess, I'm ready to use my magic for good instead of evil. [under his breath] Most of the time.

Princess Celestia: Congratulations on your success, ponies. I definitely sense a big change in Discord. [to Twilight] I'll leave the Elements of Harmony with you, Twilight. Just in case.

Twilight Sparkle: You were right when you said Fluttershy would be the one to find the way to reform Discord. By treating Discord as a friend, she got him to realize that friendship was actually important to him. And something that, once he had, he didn't want to lose.    

 

Let me try to break this back down a bit. Discord asks for a very bold promise, he asks Fluttershy to never use her element against him, and when she agrees, Discord believes he has won. He believes he can remain completely free of being bound by social obligations, norms and rules. He believes that he can be free of all of this, that he can continuing acting the way he does. He can continue being chaotic because no one has ever told him what he can or can't do. No one has ever asked him for help, or no one has ask him to be considerate of others, or that no one has been offered to help him or that he's basically done any sort of activity or interacted with others in the way of basic social norms. He's not done any of this before because he's never lived in a society before. And it hits him in his own little speech he makes “I'm Discord, the master of chaos! You think you can boss Discord around? You think I'm just going to turn all this back because you say so? Because if I don't, I'll lose the one friend I ever had? [pause]” - the lord of chaos .... is a lonely draconequus at heart. I can only fathom that being the lord of chaos and being able to do what you want and get away with stuff, messing around with reality, gets rather boring after a while. Discord has probably never shared an experience with another being, has probably never shared a secret with another, has probably never been able to talk and have fun with others, has probably never felt like he belonged to somewhere, has probably never enjoyed the company of others or been able to express other feelings to other because he's never a friend before. Discord must have been truly lonely at heart before Fluttershy became a friend, and tried to pass his time by just being nuisance to others, to rid his feelings of loneliness. But he's never learned the value of having friends, he's never learned how to be sociable to others and he's never had shared experiences with others and he's never confided to others. And when Fluttershy threatens to end their friendship, the closest friend that he's really had at this point, he realizes something. Besides being lonely all his life, he realizes that he could lose something very special that he may not be able to get back, even with his chaotic magical powers. He could genuinely lose something that is of real value and significance to him, Fluttershy's friendship.

 

I can point out:

 

Rest of main cast: [complaints]

Rainbow Dash: What's gotten into you?! Why do you keep cutting him so much slack?

Fluttershy: Because that's what friends do.

Discord: We're friends?

Fluttershy: Why, of course! I can't remember my house ever being this lively before you came along.

Discord: Oh... Well, I've... never really had a friend before.

Fluttershy: Well, now you do!  

 

There are two things that are happening here. Fluttershy is taking Discord's side against her own friends, that is actually something very meaningful and special that she is doing just for him. Discord at this point is surprised, he's never had a real friend before that has trusted him, he's never had a friend that gave him a compliment or found him to be delightful and to enjoy the company of. Its different to Discord and he realizes this is a unique and special experience being offered to him.

 

That's why when he pauses after his speech, he realizes that he values this newfound friendship more than anything else before, it negates his loneliness as well. He doesn't fix Applejack's farm because he's being told, he fixes it because he now becomes considerate of Fluttershy's feelings and he starts to care and value her feelings and stance on the situation. Now he's getting to learn what it means to have meaningful relationships with others and to interact with others and being able to relate, care and share experiences with others. Discord now internalized his friendship with Fluttershy, as something he values and believes in.

 

NOW, I'll get back to this question of “is this manipulative?” I know you probably been reading this and saying, get to the point already, but I had to explain this WHOLE situation before so that you can understand the and view a bigger picture of the social norms, relationships and obligations that have been going back and forth in this episode for some time now. Its a whole episode about the dynamics of how society interacts with one and another, what they consider as social norms and why and how people respond to each other.

 

For diehard cynics: they could make a claim that you are always being manipulated in every aspect of your life. The political parties are trying to manipulate you by influencing what you think about things, (cause isn't politics the theory about influencing people's thought process anyways?), or that family manipulates you into staying with them even if you want to leave. Or a bunch of other things, granted I'm being rather strawman here and going on about slippery slope examples. So I have to say this. For it to be manipulative, there must be some element of negativity that is associated with the manipulation, that it has to have negative characteristics such as deceitfulness, abusiveness, deception, underhandedness all at the expense of the other party involved. That's what I'll use to define manipulation in this case. The rest of everything that I've talked about this whole situation surrounding, Celestia, Fluttershy and Discord, is social influence, and its different. Not the same as manipulation, but it can cross over at times and it can be used for nefarious deeds. I've generally been referring to things though more on a positive note to try to explain things though. I know there is this argument that is being said, 'if I become part of the social norm, I will lose my own personal independence'. And I find that really depends on cultural context and what society you live in. I know I've skirted topics that refer to themselves as individualistic and collectivist societies (I think that's the terms used in sociology), but no society acts and functions purely like one side only, societies are much more complex and can exhibit both characteristics and can adopt values from both types. Though I'm also thinking of this on a much smaller scale, for those would prefer the individual/community dynamic. It depends if you are really losing your 'independence' as you socialize more because context is so important to know. It really depends on your circumstance and situation. Because I feel that, 'no man is an island' is appropriate here. Unless you can 100% cut off your ties with other people, and I do mean literally have no human contact whatsoever, then you are obviously going to have to interact with other people at some point in your life, even the most basic of human interaction requires that you meet other people. And that's not really possible. People learn about social roles, obligations and responsibilities as they get older and mature. You're not losing independence, your just learning to live within society as you get older. This is the situation of Discord (he's a unique case because we don't know how he was born nor how he was like from an early age). Discord didn't lose independence, he's just now learning how to live with ponies and within pony society for the first time. And its something that he seems to start to value now (and besides, the reform thing is long-term process. He still does plenty of shenanigans every now and then and his whole betrayal was pretty intriguing).

 

 

TL/DR: for keep calm and flutter on, it wasn't manipulation that Fluttershy did, it was social norms, obligations, duty and social influence that were being demonstrated in that episode    

 

PS – apparently they have this thing called “reform” spells as I forgot this is mention in the episode. And I have to go, wot? Why do you have such a thing and what exactly does that do??????

 

(why did I type all that, omg.).

Edited October 30, 2015 by pony.colin

[MLPFanatic34 3,234]

I think Fluttershy isn't a mean manipulator she's just trying to help and she's doing it in a parental way.

[Silver Stream. 708]

Oh it's been a while since I've thought about 'Keep Calm and Flutter on'. I really did like how this episode set itself up with an intriguing turn of events and the intent of certain characters played out here.

 

First though I would like to examine things in context of this episode and would like delay saying what constitutes as being manipulative at this point.

 

Remember the whole basis of this episode first. Discord's statue was personally brought by Princess Celestia herself and it was of course with specific motive and intention (this is one of the few times, I actually understand Celestia's decision in this in the long run and I actually think its one of her better decisions, even if it ended up backfiring in the long run. But hey, her reasoning for this decision was more well thought out compared to her other strange decisions that she has made in the series).

 

I will pull up the transcript here:

 

Twilight Sparkle: With all due respect, Princess Celestia, how could you bring Discord here?! [clears throat] Your majesty.

Princess Celestia: I'm fully aware that the last time Discord was here, he created serious havoc.

Rainbow Dash: If by "serious havoc" you mean "turning Ponyville into the chaos capital of the world"...

Rarity: ...and tricking us all into being the opposite of our true selves...

Pinkie Pie: And making yummy delicious chocolate milk rain all over the place without a single dollop of whipped cream to go with it anywhere in sight! Not a single dollop!

Princess Celestia: Yes, I understand. But I have use for Discord's magic if it can be reformed to serve good instead of evil. This is why I've brought Discord here, because I believe that you are the ponies who can help him do just that. (the important note!)

Spike: This will never work! This is a disaster! How will we ever control him?! We're doomed!  

 

Now let us consider a few things. Discord's chaotic magic, is as far as I can tell, is limitless. Maybe unstoppable even. You have to consider that the lord of chaos, can literally do anything, bend reality to his whim and do a whole lot of stuff that may not be feasible in the “in-universe” regular magic of ponykind. Not to say Discord's chaotic magic can't be outbeaten (of course Friendship was able to turn Twilight and her friends back to normal), but Discord's magical power can do almost anything as far as we can tell and its still quite powerful in consideration. We don't actually know what he can or can't do with his magical power and we don't actually know if its limited in any certain way. The possibilities with chaotic magic could potentially be endless. This means that his chaotic magical power could potentially provide the best offensive, and the best defensive capabilities, if used in the right way. And you have to consider one other major thing. Discord seemed virtually impossible to beat if you look back at when Twilight has her flashbacks.   Remember in the episode of 'Princess Twilight Sparkle – part 2'   This was what Celestia specifically said:  

 

Princess Celestia: We have managed to discover the only means by which we can defeat Discord and free the citizens of Equestria. Even without these elements, the Tree of Harmony will possess a powerful magic. As long as that magic remains, it will continue to control and contain all that grows here.  

 

Of course later:  

 

Discord: Oh, this is so much fun. How about a game of 'Pin the Tail on the Pony'?

 

Princess Celestia: [gasp] Play time is over for you, Discord.

Discord: Oh, I doubt that. [munching] Hungry? Suit yourselves. Oh! What have you got there?

Princess Celestia: The Elements of Harmony.

Princess Luna: With them, we shall defeat you.

Twilight Sparkle: This must be when they turned Discord into stone.  

 

I would say based off of the flashbacks, Celestia and Luna weren't really capable of defeating Discord on their own because he could probably blunt their attacks with his chaotic magic. He can bend reality and just mess around with his opponents, he doesn't have to fight directly if he doesn't want. So he can be the typical lord of chaos that is not bounded by any sort of rules and regulations.  

 

BUT the elements of harmony (such an OP weapon, pls nerf lulz), as demonstrated, are the only magical items that are capable of stoning Discord and putting him in a statue prison. They are literally the only thing that stopped him during his short reign of chaotic terror.

 

Now let me put this a little bit more into order and perspective. Up until 'Keep Calm and Flutter On' Discord was still stoned and trapped in his prison. They still had the elements of harmony with them and could have chosen the option to NOT release Discord and could have just kept it at that, no immediate danger. However, this is where I praise Celestia for having some reasonable thinking for once (at least compared to her other decisions). Celestia actually thought about the long-term situation for once. Yeah we have the elements of harmony now and currently, but what happens if there comes a situation where we won't have the elements of harmony to call upon to defend us? What happens if there comes a time when we can't rely on the elements of harmony for whatever reason? What then happens? Well, what if we have a back-up plan/back-up asset. What if we have an ally, who is quite powerful and quite capable of turning the tables on things. A power magical being that can bend reality and potentially neutralize major threats with relative ease. What if we have that as our a back-up, or at least something to compliment our current defences, just in case. And this where we have the diplomacy or “softcore-methods” of be-friending potential allies.

 

(Okay, now you're wondering, where is Fluttershy in all of this giant wall of text?) Well now that we know the background context, we should consider how this fits into a social context of obligations, expectations and social relations as well. Now consider some of the lines that Fluttershy says during KCAFO:

 

Princess Celestia: I realize that this is a tall order, but I wouldn't ask if I weren't confident you could get him to use magic obediently of his own free will.

Fluttershy: And... you really think I'll know best how to do that?

Princess Celestia: I do. Now, I must return to Canterlot for Equestria's royal summit. You may release Discord when ready.  

 

(later...)

Twilight Sparkle: You sure you're okay with this?

Fluttershy: I know it's not gonna be easy, but Princess Celestia's counting on me. And... I think I actually know what to do.   And later:  

Fluttershy: I think the key is to befriend him. Being kind to him and letting him be my house guest is probably the best way to do that.

Twilight Sparkle: And you really think that'll work?

Fluttershy: I think it's worth a try.  

 

And also (though you get the point already):  

Fluttershy: If I'm going to be his friend, I have to start by giving him the benefit of the doubt! Tell you what. Bring all the ponies over for a dinner party this evening, and I'll bet his manners will have really improved by then. I'll even get him to put the cottage back on the ground first.  

 

 

The main point that I'm trying to get at here goes back to the first quote here when she mentions Celestia. Fluttershy understands and realizes that she has been asked an important favour (or given a special task) by Princess Celestia of trying to 'befriend' Discord. This is a unique situation but it relies on social relations altogether. If you were asked to help in a favour by a friend, or someone you highly respect, and they believe you are capable of performing the task, would you try to help them? Its probably difficult for Fluttershy to say no to Princess Celestia about this, and realizes what is at stake here as well for this circumstance. The sense of having some social obligations and duty are displayed. Fluttershy understands that she's not just a common pegasus, she is the wielder of the 'element of kindness' and has been called upon at various times to defend Equestria against potential dangers. She is unique among her social relationships with important royal dignitaries, few could say there ever as close to royalty as Fluttershy except with her own close circle of friends. She understands and identifies with her social obligation and duty as being a guardian to Equestrian society and that this task being asked by Princess Celestia is considered of utmost importance to the security of Equestria. And it seems, Fluttershy agrees with Celestia that befriending Discord would prove to beneficial in the long run to ponykind and probably internalizes this as her important obligation to Equestrian society, the monarchy and civic duty to the country. Now we get a sense of why Fluttershy is doing this in the first place. She has committed herself to this important task because she identifies with it, she is trying to fulfil her obligations to proceed with this plan.  

 

And she goes about it, by trying to befriend Discord in her own way. Fluttershy is of course aware during the whole episode that Discord is acting reckless, chaotically, irresponsible and trying to get his own during the episode by antagonizing Fluttershy's friends.  

 

Rainbow Dash: You see Discord's behind all this, right?

Fluttershy: Oh, of course I do! Do you all think I'm a silly, gullible fool?

Rarity: Only in the sense of being silly and gullible...

Pinkie Pie: [simultaneously] Um, well...

Applejack: [simultaneously] Uh... uh, no, not exactly...

Fluttershy: I've just been trying to gain his friendship any way I can, so he'd come to trust and listen to me!

Discord: Hey there, Fluttershy, you want a turn? The water's great!

Fluttershy: Time to see if it worked.    

 

But she is trying to earn his trust, she is trying to give benefit of the doubt mostly, until it comes down to, 'I'll give up something for you, in order to really show you that I'm genuine in trying to be your friend'. She promises to never use her element against Discord, and this is where this whole situation is so important (this is really the major climax that blew me away).  

 

Fluttershy: As you can see, there's a big mess down here at Sweet Apple Acres.

Discord: Oh, yes. Awful business, that. Mm.

Fluttershy: It is awful. This is Applejack's home, and it's being destroyed by innocent creatures who would never be acting this way if it weren't for your reckless behavior. You need to fix this.

Discord: Oh, yes, very well, I will fix it. I only ask one thing in return.

Fluttershy: Yes?

Discord: I ask that you never use your Element of Harmony against me. As a sign of our friendship. [necks squeaking]

Fluttershy: I will never use my Element of Harmony against you.

Discord: Excellent! [snaps fingers] There, much better! I do prefer ice skating to water skiing! Don't you? [humming] [nonexistent crowd cheering]

Fluttershy: Discord! That's not fixing it! Why, I oughta...

Discord: Where are you going? What's wrong, pal?

Fluttershy: Don't call me your pal!

Discord: Oh, pfft, come skating with me, and we'll let bygones be bygones.

Spike: Here you go, Fluttershy! Game on!

Twilight Sparkle: He fixes this or he goes back to being stone! Princess Celestia will understand! [suspenseful pause]

Fluttershy: I made a promise not to use my element against him, and I'm going to keep it.

Pinkie Pie: [gasps]

Applejack and Rainbow Dash: [groans]

Discord: Hahah! You see? She wants to have fun with me because we're friends. She can't use the elements against me because we're friends. I'm free forever! [laughs]

Fluttershy: [growls] Not. Your. Friend!

Discord: Who cares? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. I'm Discord, the master of chaos! You think you can boss Discord around? You think I'm just going to turn all this back because you say so? Because if I don't, I'll lose the one friend I ever had? [pause] Oh. Oh. Well played, Fluttershy. Well played. [magic noises]

Main cast sans Fluttershy: [cheering]

Discord: I liked it better my way, but... I guess when you're friends, you can't always have things exactly your way all the time, eh?

 

Discord: Yes, Princess, I'm ready to use my magic for good instead of evil. [under his breath] Most of the time.

Princess Celestia: Congratulations on your success, ponies. I definitely sense a big change in Discord. [to Twilight] I'll leave the Elements of Harmony with you, Twilight. Just in case.

Twilight Sparkle: You were right when you said Fluttershy would be the one to find the way to reform Discord. By treating Discord as a friend, she got him to realize that friendship was actually important to him. And something that, once he had, he didn't want to lose.    

 

Let me try to break this back down a bit. Discord asks for a very bold promise, he asks Fluttershy to never use her element against him, and when she agrees, Discord believes he has won. He believes he can remain completely free of being bound by social obligations, norms and rules. He believes that he can be free of all of this, that he can continuing acting the way he does. He can continue being chaotic because no one has ever told him what he can or can't do. No one has ever asked him for help, or no one has ask him to be considerate of others, or that no one has been offered to help him or that he's basically done any sort of activity or interacted with others in the way of basic social norms. He's not done any of this before because he's never lived in a society before. And it hits him in his own little speech he makes “I'm Discord, the master of chaos! You think you can boss Discord around? You think I'm just going to turn all this back because you say so? Because if I don't, I'll lose the one friend I ever had? [pause]” - the lord of chaos .... is a lonely draconequus at heart. I can only fathom that being the lord of chaos and being able to do what you want and get away with stuff, messing around with reality, gets rather boring after a while. Discord has probably never shared an experience with another being, has probably never shared a secret with another, has probably never been able to talk and have fun with others, has probably never felt like he belonged to somewhere, has probably never enjoyed the company of others or been able to express other feelings to other because he's never a friend before. Discord must have been truly lonely at heart before Fluttershy became a friend, and tried to pass his time by just being nuisance to others, to rid his feelings of loneliness. But he's never learned the value of having friends, he's never learned how to be sociable to others and he's never had shared experiences with others and he's never confided to others. And when Fluttershy threatens to end their friendship, the closest friend that he's really had at this point, he realizes something. Besides being lonely all his life, he realizes that he could lose something very special that he may not be able to get back, even with his chaotic magical powers. He could genuinely lose something that is of real value and significance to him, Fluttershy's friendship.

 

I can point out:

 

Rest of main cast: [complaints]

Rainbow Dash: What's gotten into you?! Why do you keep cutting him so much slack?

Fluttershy: Because that's what friends do.

Discord: We're friends?

Fluttershy: Why, of course! I can't remember my house ever being this lively before you came along.

Discord: Oh... Well, I've... never really had a friend before.

Fluttershy: Well, now you do!  

 

There are two things that are happening here. Fluttershy is taking Discord's side against her own friends, that is actually something very meaningful and special that she is doing just for him. Discord at this point is surprised, he's never had a real friend before that has trusted him, he's never had a friend that gave him a compliment or found him to be delightful and to enjoy the company of. Its different to Discord and he realizes this is a unique and special experience being offered to him.

 

That's why when he pauses after his speech, he realizes that he values this newfound friendship more than anything else before, it negates his loneliness as well. He doesn't fix Applejack's farm because he's being told, he fixes it because he now becomes considerate of Fluttershy's feelings and he starts to care and value her feelings and stance on the situation. Now he's getting to learn what it means to have meaningful relationships with others and to interact with others and being able to relate, care and share experiences with others. Discord now internalized his friendship with Fluttershy, as something he values and believes in.

 

NOW, I'll get back to this question of “is this manipulative?” I know you probably been reading this and saying, get to the point already, but I had to explain this WHOLE situation before so that you can understand the and view a bigger picture of the social norms, relationships and obligations that have been going back and forth in this episode for some time now. Its a whole episode about the dynamics of how society interacts with one and another, what they consider as social norms and why and how people respond to each other.

 

For diehard cynics: they could make a claim that you are always being manipulated in every aspect of your life. The political parties are trying to manipulate you by influencing what you think about things, (cause isn't politics the theory about influencing people's thought process anyways?), or that family manipulates you into staying with them even if you want to leave. Or a bunch of other things, granted I'm being rather strawman here and going on about slippery slope examples. So I have to say this. For it to be manipulative, there must be some element of negativity that is associated with the manipulation, that it has to have negative characteristics such as deceitfulness, abusiveness, deception, underhandedness all at the expense of the other party involved. That's what I'll use to define manipulation in this case. The rest of everything that I've talked about this whole situation surrounding, Celestia, Fluttershy and Discord, is social influence, and its different. Not the same as manipulation, but it can cross over at times and it can be used for nefarious deeds. I've generally been referring to things though more on a positive note to try to explain things though. I know there is this argument that is being said, 'if I become part of the social norm, I will lose my own personal independence'. And I find that really depends on cultural context and what society you live in. I know I've skirted topics that refer to themselves as individualistic and collectivist societies (I think that's the terms used in sociology), but no society acts and functions purely like one side only, societies are much more complex and can exhibit both characteristics and can adopt values from both types. Though I'm also thinking of this on a much smaller scale, for those would prefer the individual/community dynamic. It depends if you are really losing your 'independence' as you socialize more because context is so important to know. It really depends on your circumstance and situation. Because I feel that, 'no man is an island' is appropriate here. Unless you can 100% cut off your ties with other people, and I do mean literally have no human contact whatsoever, then you are obviously going to have to interact with other people at some point in your life, even the most basic of human interaction requires that you meet other people. And that's not really possible. People learn about social roles, obligations and responsibilities as they get older and mature. You're not losing independence, your just learning to live within society as you get older. This is the situation of Discord (he's a unique case because we don't know how he was born nor how he was like from an early age). Discord didn't lose independence, he's just now learning how to live with ponies and within pony society for the first time. And its something that he seems to start to value now (and besides, the reform thing is long-term process. He still does plenty of shenanigans every now and then and his whole betrayal was pretty intriguing).

 

 

TL/DR: for keep calm and flutter on, it wasn't manipulation that Fluttershy did, it was social norms, obligations, duty and social influence that were being demonstrated in that episode    

 

PS – apparently they have this thing called “reform” spells as I forgot this is mention in the episode. And I have to go, wot? Why do you have such a thing and what exactly does that do??????

 

(why did I type all that, omg.).

 

This was all very....descriptive and I'm glad I took the time to read it thoroughly before responding yesterday. And while I understand what you're saying and appreciate the support to your analysis, you basically switched the term "manipulation" into a more positive light. Regardless of the term we use to Fluttershy's method, it was basically manipulation. We cannot always depends heavily on the exact words that are being said within an episode but more so look at the actions and aftermath. She gave him freedom to make his own choices.....and offered him friendship which was something he never had. It made him feel good to not be alone and to have that one pony who doesn't have a magical weapon pointed at him whenever he makes an appearance. Fluttershy is the first to genuinely accept him for who he is and not hold that against him too hard for whenever he does mischief. I'm sure this wasn't Fluttershy's plans nor was it her intention to manipulate him. 

 

 

But because of the huge effort you put into that, I'll just go with your terms. First time I've ever seen that so thanks.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 41,298]

(snip)

Holy hell that post was long. I give you kudos for going into such extreme detail. Not something I could do. 

 

In terms of the manipulation towards Discord, I would not call it that. That is friendship doing its thing. Friendship is quite the powerful force, especially in Equestria, so even the master of chaos can experience it. That episode was the first time he ever did and that most likely created some powerful emotions. I mean, if Fluttershy was my first and only friend and I just realized that, I would snap out of my chaosness pretty fast if in Discord's position. 

 

As for everything else, I think it is just a case of Flutters being able to hold her own way better than what initial impressions would give. She is quite good at working around certain issues in her own way, she is surprisingly capable in this regard. I wish I was morel like that.

[Chronamut 355]

sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

[Lucky Shot 232]

Fluttershy isn't (supposed to be) a manipulator. She's just a poorly written character... depending on the writer, naturally.
 
Faust had originally based Fluttershy on a specific girl she'd known in school, and early on Fluttershy was an ordinary agoraphobe with an acceptably cartoonish approximation of panic disorder or at least general anxiety.
 
This didn't last long. Fluttershy quickly developed a split personality disorder where her anxiety wouldn't be "conquered" or controlled, it would simply disappear as she became an intimidating if not horrifying presence. Over five seasons she's also gradually lost her endearing shyness (which is part of her name) and become snide, sarcastic, and frequently obnoxious.
 
Most of Fluttershy's development has been some play on the concept of "just be more assertive n__n", which is one of the few things about this show that is actually offensive, because Fluttershy symbolized social anxiety (a crippling disorder) and the show portrays it magically going away and coming back like it was never a major thing. Real social anxiety does not go away and come back because it is not a boomerang. It is always there. It stays there for pretty much your entire life.
 
To allow Fluttershy to interact more fully with other characters without totally undermining her personality it would have been significantly more believable, entertaining, and character-consistent to have her face her fear, i.e. perform "brave" actions while visibly terrified and unhappy, rather than switch back and forth between shameless cowardice and suddenly being a totally different person.
 
In addition, all of Fluttershy's snide comments should have been delivered as clearly well-intended jokes, and she should have immediately gotten nervous about whether that commentary upset the person she said it to.
 
I primarily blame M.A. Larson. He was always an influential writer, has a lot of creative control now, and has made it no secret that he despises Fluttershy (presumably for not being compatible with his fedora-tipping personality), meaning he is ill-equipped to write her since he doesn't empathize with her.

------------
 
The Discord reformation episode was one of many poor episodes written by Dave Polski, who specialized in slapstick comedy before working on this show and who has taken the ample criticism given to him to heart, improving significantly for seasons 4 and 5.

But the Polski of a few years ago was still pretty bad at the job, and the episode shows it. It was focused too much on the physically comical aspects, and I too found that Fluttershy's behavior in the show was extremely, uncharacteristically callous, cold, and manipulative. Or at least, uncharacteristic before the show made it standard for Fluttershy to be callous and impudent.

Courtesy of a good and strong and manly buddy of mine, here's the portion of that episode's transcript that makes it obvious Fluttershy was a conniving wench: 
 

Rainbow Dash: You see Discord's behind all this, right?
Fluttershy: Oh, of course I do! Do you all think I'm a silly, gullible fool?
Rarity: Only in the sense of being silly and gullible...
Pinkie Pie: [simultaneously] Um, well...
Applejack: [simultaneously] Uh... uh, no, not exactly...
Fluttershy: I've just been trying to gain his friendship any way I can, so he'd come to trust and listen to me!

 
That's... not how Fluttershy. That's simply not how Fluttershy.
 
But then again, she hasn't really been Fluttershy for about three seasons, has she? So I guess it's moot.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

Oh she totally is manipulating him.

Like we've all said, there's no malicious intent, but she is still holding friendship over his head to control him.

 

But that's not really wrong or uncommon in the real world.

I don't see any problem with telling a friend that's being a complete jerk, "Hey get your act together or I'm outie."

[Silver Stream. 708]

Oh she totally is manipulating him.

Like we've all said, there's no malicious intent, but she is still holding friendship over his head to control him.

 

But that's not really wrong or uncommon in the real world.

I don't see any problem with telling a friend that's being a complete jerk, "Hey get your act together or I'm outie."

Pretty much. At least we can admit that by this point, she doesn't have to do that. After the battle with Tirek, he seems to be more genuine in their friendship. We are getting an episode soon about this.....so maybe it'll shed more light about where he stands

[pony.colin 156]

This was all very....descriptive and I'm glad I took the time to read it thoroughly before responding yesterday. And while I understand what you're saying and appreciate the support to your analysis, you basically switched the term "manipulation" into a more positive light. Regardless of the term we use to Fluttershy's method, it was basically manipulation. We cannot always depends heavily on the exact words that are being said within an episode but more so look at the actions and aftermath. She gave him freedom to make his own choices.....and offered him friendship which was something he never had. It made him feel good to not be alone and to have that one pony who doesn't have a magical weapon pointed at him whenever he makes an appearance. Fluttershy is the first to genuinely accept him for who he is and not hold that against him too hard for whenever he does mischief. I'm sure this wasn't Fluttershy's plans nor was it her intention to manipulate him. 

 

 

But because of the huge effort you put into that, I'll just go with your terms. First time I've ever seen that so thanks.

 

Thank you, I appreciate the reply.  I kept thinking over what I wrote and started to do some more thinking on the subject again, (sorry about the first time with the lengthy post).

 

I realize that when I wrote that, that I didn't really state a conclusion on what I (I myself) thought about whether Fluttershy's methods were manipulative in some way. And it got me thinking and I realized, I think had a presumption that I was going to conclude that 'no Fluttershy wasn't being manipulative' (I think that's what was going on in the back of my mind) and then I actually was coming to a more cloudier conclusion that was a lot more grey. And thinking about it over again, I don't think I can pick one or other and ended up considering both sides in the end.

 

Because of two things. 1. I had vaguely outlined that social influences and manipulation could supposedly be separate, but can also cross over and be both at the same time. The thing is, that social influence and manipulation can definitely be the same for sure. Its not at all impossible. But then I had to re-think, where exactly was I pulling out this stance that social influence and manipulation could also be separate as well? (which leads to second point). 2. The dichotomy of positive and negative elements which seems to have this very funny problem. On the one hand I started thinking, that this can't work well to describe a complex situation because it automatically assumes that something will either be “A” or “B” and of nothing else. It assumes there is no existence of “C” or anything outside of the two categories (I'm sure there is philosophical term for this that I'm too lazy to look it up). But on the other hand, I use it because its a useful explanation tool to divide things into two separate entities. Namely, a “positive” and “negative” influence, that supposedly exists.

 

So I didn't use a full definition for 'social influence' and 'manipulation' so that they could be cross compared and sort of gave example types for both. I guess I'm going to have to articulate them more clearly here in this response. Social influence could potentially be defined as 'occuring when one's emotions, opinions, or behaviors are affected by others'. Manipulation can be said as the process of one party trying to influence the other party in order to achieve their desired goals, used in conjunction with negative characteristics such as deceit, abuse, deception (or other negative characteristics that are considered hurtful/harmful). I'm aware that definitions can fail and that they are getting less helpful as they must be changed to accommodate new things/situations/occurences etc. Now since I said both of those things can cross over, where then was I coming to stance that believed that there exists a “positive social influence" and is thus not just manipulation entirely? I think I came to it, when I considered that, the one party who is attempting social influence, actually cares about the well-being of the other party (physically, mentally etc) and is respectful enough to consider the other party's actions and responses in the matter as well. Manipulation does not have that element at all, it disregards the feelings and well-being of the other party being manipulated in order to advance their own goals. I know that is a slim difference, very slim, but I think that's what I was originally alluding to when I thought this out. But it also is problematic because it creates this dichotomy of “positive social influence” and “negative manipulation” and suggests there is no such thing as a middle ground, when I myself would believe that 'there is of course a middle-ground ... I just don't know what to call it'.  Maybe "positive social influence" exists? I'm not too certain though if it can be called like this as I just came up with those terms put together.

 

Now was Fluttershy manipulative in her action? Well that's the grey I originally thought, did she care about Discord, enough to care about his well-being?  I could believe that maybe she did consider his well-being because she give him his freedom to make his decisions as he stayed with her in her cottage, and also respectfully made a promise to him as well to not use her element against him and offered her patience and friendship to him to negate his loneliness.  But I can also see stances being made about how this whole situation can be considered manipulative as well (because going back to the original instigator of all this, its really Celestia who starts this whole thing off in the first place), and that Fluttershy could be considered as trying to deceive Discord because her intention was to win his friendship since the beginning. However, Discord knew this whole intention from the very beginning, bcause he says it at the beginning that he could hear outside voices while in his stone prision and even claims at various times in the episode, he's been self-aware about this intent this whole time as well.  So I can see both as having some validity to their claims. At this point, I don't have a conclusion that says its either A (positive social influence) or B (manipulation).  It might be C? (whatever C is).   I guess sociologists might call some of these actions 'reciprocity' and whatever other actions that have been discussed here.  

 

I should also state, I guess I came into this discussion thinking that I could make the claim that 'Fluttershy wasn't being manipulative' but then I went through some internal re-thinking about that matter and came out with uh, this I guess. I guess as well I can relate some things about this episode with some of my own relationships offline, some things i've noticed with my life as well.  Anyways, cheers for the topic, was quite an interesting disscussion. I always liked KCAFO's episode. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by pony.colin

[They call me Loyalty 1,948]

A little bit far fetched...

 

Her insecurities make it so she's afraid of her own ego, meaning Fluttershy is sensitive and comprehensive, more than anypony else, yet vulnerable.

 

So, Why would you share friendship with someone that values himself above the relationship?

[cmarston1 5,959]

I don't think it is Fluttershy who is the ultimate manipulator.

If that goes to anyone it would go to Tirek from Twilight's Kingdom.