spoiler The season 7 finale and "The Journal of the Two Sisters"

[melody5697 195]

I decided to watch the season finale early because I've just been looking forward to it so much. I've always considered The Journal of the Two Sisters to be canon, but now, I'm not so sure. So I'm gonna list all the contradictions I noticed. I hope someone can tell me how they're actually not contradictions.

1. Star Swirl the Bearded didn't believe that the Mane 6 had saved the world, but here is a quote from one of Celestia's entries in the journal, in which she is talking about Twilight's cutie mark on the Tree of Harmony: "When I asked him if he knew about the pony with the last symbol of the star, he shrugged, clearly knowing something." So that means he probably knew about Twilight, and therefore should've known about her and her friends saving the world all those times.
2. Star Swirl and the other Pillars were talking about how they planted the seeds that grew into the Tree of Harmony, and it sounded like the Tree of Harmony hadn't even grown before they vanished because they were amazed just to see a projection of it. But it already existed in The Journal of the Two Sisters. Celestia had even heard of it before. Although I suppose it's possible that the Tree of Harmony was smaller back then and the Pillars were just amazed by how much it had grown. Maybe some alicorn was able to see the future and saw the Tree of Harmony, and as it was passed down through the generations without anyone ever seeing it, maybe they forgot that it was actually a real thing. Just writing about this helped me realize why it's not a contradiction.
3. There were actually a lot of things that Star Swirl should've known about if he was traveling to the future like The Journal of the Two Sisters said.
4. From what Celestia and Luna said in the finale, it looks like their lessons with Star Swirl were more like formal schooling. They even called him their teacher. But in The Journal of the Two Sisters, he was also their friend, and it didn't sound like they ever had to write essays.

So. Thoughts? Because if this is contradictory, there is no hope for my fan fiction if I don't want it to take place in an alternate universe. (Not that there's much hope for it anyway. I thought I understood Princess Luna well enough to keep her in character because I've been obsessed with her for years and we're both INFPs and we both have personal experience with depression, self-harm, and the living hell known as a Fi-Si loop. But apparently not. She acted so out of character in my fan fiction that my friend couldn't even read it. He said she acted too much like Pinkie Pie.) But at least now I know why Star Swirl wasn't there to prevent Luna from turning into Nightmare Moon. And I can prove that my friend was wrong about Celestia and Luna getting their cutie marks as adults.

Edited October 9, 2017 by melody5697

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

31 minutes ago, melody5697 said:

I decided to watch the season finale early because I've just been looking forward to it so much. I've always considered The Journal of the Two Sisters to be canon, but now, I'm not so sure. So I'm gonna list all the contradictions I noticed. I hope someone can tell me how they're actually not contradictions.

1. Star Swirl the Bearded didn't believe that the Mane 6 had saved the world, but here is a quote from one of Celestia's entries in the journal, in which she is talking about Twilight's cutie mark on the Tree of Harmony: "When I asked him if he knew about the pony with the last symbol of the star, he shrugged, clearly knowing something." So that means he probably knew about Twilight, and therefore should've known about her and her friends saving the world all those times.
2. Star Swirl and the other Pillars were talking about how they planted the seeds that grew into the Tree of Harmony, and it sounded like the Tree of Harmony hadn't even grown before they vanished because they were amazed just to see a projection of it. But it already existed in The Journal of the Two Sisters. Celestia had even heard of it before. Although I suppose it's possible that the Tree of Harmony was smaller back then and the Pillars were just amazed by how much it had grown. Maybe some alicorn was able to see the future and saw the Tree of Harmony, and as it was passed down through the generations without anyone ever seeing it, maybe they forgot that it was actually a real thing. Just writing about this helped me realize why it's not a contradiction.
3. There were actually a lot of things that Star Swirl should've known about if he was traveling to the future like The Journal of the Two Sisters said.
4. From what Celestia and Luna said in the finale, it looks like their lessons with Star Swirl were more like formal schooling. They even called him their teacher. But in The Journal of the Two Sisters, he was also their friend, and it didn't sound like they ever had to write essays.

So. Thoughts? Because if this is contradictory, there is no hope for my fan fiction if I don't want it to take place in an alternate universe. (Not that there's much hope for it anyway. I thought I understood Princess Luna well enough to keep her in character because I've been obsessed with her for years and we're both INFPs and we both have personal experience with depression, self-harm, and the living hell known as a Fi-Si loop. But apparently not. She acted so out of character in my fan fiction that my friend couldn't even read it. He said she acted too much like Pinkie Pie.) But at least now I know why Star Swirl wasn't there to prevent Luna from turning into Nightmare Moon. And I can prove that my friend was wrong about Celestia and Luna getting their cutie marks as adults.

Simple answer, the journal was 100% retconned, it is no longer canon and didn't happen.

[melody5697 195]

Just now, Ryanmahaffe said:

Simple answer, the journal was 100% retconned, it is no longer canon and didn't happen.

Hmph. I'm gonna come up with ways to explain the inconsistencies. I can do it.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, melody5697 said:

Hmph. I'm gonna come up with ways to explain the inconsistencies. I can do it.

Well, Sometimes something can be explained (like meadowbrook being an Earth Pony) but some things can not, the Tree of Harmony was already a thing in the Journal, where as Starswirl didn't even know about it in the finale (which I think is disappointing that it doesn't have a more...cosmic reason for existing)

[melody5697 195]

Just now, Ryanmahaffe said:

Well, Sometimes something can be explained (like meadowbrook being an Earth Pony) but some things can not, the Tree of Harmony was already a thing in the Journal, where as Starswirl didn't even know about it in the finale (which I think is disappointing that it doesn't have a more...cosmic reason for existing)

Did you miss the explanation I came up with for the thing with the Tree of Harmony?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, melody5697 said:

Did you miss the explanation I came up with for the thing with the Tree of Harmony?

Yeah, it doesn't work.

The 6 ponies put their magic into a seed, and planted it, then it became the Tree of Harmony, this is the official creation now. Which doesn't work in the Journal no matter what.

[melody5697 195]

Just now, Ryanmahaffe said:

Yeah, it doesn't work.

The 6 ponies put their magic into a seed, and planted it, then it became the Tree of Harmony, this is the official creation now. Which doesn't work in the Journal no matter what.

They planted it before the events of The Journal of the Two Sisters.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

1 minute ago, melody5697 said:

They planted it before the events of The Journal of the Two Sisters.

They planted it then went to fight the pony of shadows, like, immediately. 
"But we shall leave behind a seed, in hopes it will grow into a force to fight darkness for all time" and after that they were in Limbo for 1,000 years because they had to banish the Pony of Shadows.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[Will Guide 21,365]

Well the Journal of the Royal Sisters was "defictionialized" by Amy Keating Rodgers, who is no longer part of the show. So basically, I just treat the Journal as an alternative back story that exists in its own universe.

[melody5697 195]

Just now, Ryanmahaffe said:

They planted it then went to fight the pony of shadows, like, immediately. 
"But we shall leave behind a seed, in hopes it will grow into a force to fight darkness for all time" and after that they were in Limbo for 1,000 years.

Oh... Right. I wish the show had ended.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

1 minute ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

Well the Journal of the Royal Sisters was "defictionialized" by Amy Keating Rodgers, who is no longer part of the show. So basically, I just treat the Journal as an alternative back story that exists in its own universe.

Which is a shame, it's clear that the writers don't pay as much attention to the external continuity as they should, excluding comics because they are not the same thing and were always meant to be secondary canon.

[Firedog 320]

47 minutes ago, melody5697 said:

I decided to watch the season finale early because I've just been looking forward to it so much. I've always considered The Journal of the Two Sisters to be canon, but now, I'm not so sure. So I'm gonna list all the contradictions I noticed. I hope someone can tell me how they're actually not contradictions.

1. Star Swirl the Bearded didn't believe that the Mane 6 had saved the world, but here is a quote from one of Celestia's entries in the journal, in which she is talking about Twilight's cutie mark on the Tree of Harmony: "When I asked him if he knew about the pony with the last symbol of the star, he shrugged, clearly knowing something." So that means he probably knew about Twilight, and therefore should've known about her and her friends saving the world all those times.
2. Star Swirl and the other Pillars were talking about how they planted the seeds that grew into the Tree of Harmony, and it sounded like the Tree of Harmony hadn't even grown before they vanished because they were amazed just to see a projection of it. But it already existed in The Journal of the Two Sisters. Celestia had even heard of it before. Although I suppose it's possible that the Tree of Harmony was smaller back then and the Pillars were just amazed by how much it had grown. Maybe some alicorn was able to see the future and saw the Tree of Harmony, and as it was passed down through the generations without anyone ever seeing it, maybe they forgot that it was actually a real thing. Just writing about this helped me realize why it's not a contradiction.
3. There were actually a lot of things that Star Swirl should've known about if he was traveling to the future like The Journal of the Two Sisters said.
4. From what Celestia and Luna said in the finale, it looks like their lessons with Star Swirl were more like formal schooling. They even called him their teacher. But in The Journal of the Two Sisters, he was also their friend, and it didn't sound like they ever had to write essays.

So. Thoughts? Because if this is contradictory, there is no hope for my fan fiction if I don't want it to take place in an alternate universe. (Not that there's much hope for it anyway. I thought I understood Princess Luna well enough to keep her in character because I've been obsessed with her for years and we're both INFPs and we both have personal experience with depression, self-harm, and the living hell known as a Fi-Si loop. But apparently not. She acted so out of character in my fan fiction that my friend couldn't even read it. He said she acted too much like Pinkie Pie.) But at least now I know why Star Swirl wasn't there to prevent Luna from turning into Nightmare Moon. And I can prove that my friend was wrong about Celestia and Luna getting their cutie marks as adults.

1. Doesn't neccesarly mean he knew they would save the world.

2. Yeah, instantly grown into a small sapling would make sense, it is a magical tree after all.

3. Depends where he went into the future.

4. I doubt they would talk about there formal schooling in the book and it seemed like they were friends in the show finale.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Firedog

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, melody5697 said:

Oh... Right. I wish the show had ended.

I don't, I prefer official explanations over constant headcanon and speculating, it's fun to think, but I don't want to be left in the dark forever. Even if I am not overly happy with the Trees creation, I think it works.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[melody5697 195]

5 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

I don't, I prefer official explanations over constant headcanon and speculating, it's fun to think, but I don't want to be left in the dark forever. Even if I am not overly happy with the Trees creation, I think it works.

But my fan fiction...

I actually really liked my explanation for the events that lead up to Princess Luna becoming Nightmare Moon... But now it doesn't work at all. There's no way to salvage it because my fan fiction happened over just a few years, but now according to the show, it must have been decades between when Celestia and Luna got their cutie marks and when Luna turned into Nightmare Moon.

I promised my friend Jacob that I would finish it, too... But he's not talking to me anyway and I have no idea why, so I guess it doesn't matter because he would never read it.

[Jeric 46,869]

24 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

They planted it then went to fight the pony of shadows, like, immediately. 
"But we shall leave behind a seed, in hopes it will grow into a force to fight darkness for all time" and after that they were in Limbo for 1,000 years because they had to banish the Pony of Shadows.

Except the SStB Journal depicted iconography that suggests the passage of time allowed it to grow before they faced Stygian. 

Shot one shows the seed. 

Shot two shows a sapling of the Tree of Harmony. He had time to draw that. Since there is not a direct statement of how much time passed, it's open to interpretation. Barthes wins this round.

[melody5697 195]

1 minute ago, Jeric said:

Except the SStB Journal depicted iconography that suggests the passage of time allowed it to grow before they faced Stygian. 

That still contradicts The Journal of the Two Sisters. The Tree of Harmony had already grown when that book began, and Star Swirl was still there at the end of the book. And the events of the book took at least several months.

[Jeric 46,869]

Just now, melody5697 said:

That still contradicts The Journal of the Two Sisters. The Tree of Harmony had already grown when that book began, and Star Swirl was still there at the end of the book. And the events of the book took at least several months.

Unreliable narrator? 

Kinda fits considering the first episode of the whole show. 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, Jeric said:

Except the SStB Journal depicted iconography that suggests the passage of time allowed it to grow before they faced Stygian. 

Grow enough to have the cutie marks on it? For Starswirl to know "something" about the third cutie mark on the tree? The way all the legends speak about the tree shows that they never saw it grow and even the way Starswirl says Tree of Harmony, it's as if  his first time addressing it by name.

Also, Celestia said something about reading about the Tree of Harmony in books but never seeing it (after she found it) That would have meant a long time passed between planting the seed and defeating the Pony of Shadows. They left behind the seed to protect the land after they went to Limbo.
 

[melody5697 195]

Just now, Jeric said:

Unreliable narrator? 

Kinda fits considering the first episode of the whole show. 

The contradiction is too big. This isn't something we can just call a continuity error. The Journal of the Two Sisters just isn't canon.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Again, I wish it weren't so, in the Journal, the Tree of Harmony seemed to be older than anyone can remember, not it's just like 1,500 years old and planted by some powerful ponies. It grew into the living spirit of the land and seems to have a mind of it's own now, but I do think it is a pretty underwhelming origin for the tree.

[Jeric 46,869]

1 minute ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Grow enough to have the cutie marks on it? For Starswirl to know "something" about the third cutie mark on the tree? The way all the legends speak about the tree shows that they never saw it grow and even the way Starswirl says Tree of Harmony, it's as if  his first time addressing it by name

Like I said, it depends on people's take on it. If fools can still say Pear Butter is alive ... then this too shall be open to interpretation. As it stands ... the unknown passage of time with the hint that either some time has passed or he kinda had an inkling of what it would grow into. 

I kinda look at historical documents for fun. You would be amazed at how many times people get shit wrong. Memory changes every time we recall the memory. Image that memory after 1000 years. Take your pick. 

[melody5697 195]

Just now, Jeric said:

Like I said, it depends on people's take on it. If fools can still say Pear Butter is alive ... then this too shall be open to interpretation. As it stands ... the unknown passage of time with the hint that either some time has passed or he kinda had an inkling of what it would grow into. 

I kinda look at historical documents for fun. You would be amazed at how many times people get shit wrong. Memory changes every time we recall the memory. Image that memory after 1000 years. Take your pick. 

We're talking about information from journals here. Journals written when these things happened.

[Jeric 46,869]

4 minutes ago, melody5697 said:

The contradiction is too big. This isn't something we can just call a continuity error. The Journal of the Two Sisters just isn't canon.

Depends on interpretation. I can literally copy and paste this all night.

Personally I have no horse in the race. They are free to alter and change things at will and I don't care as long as the story is good. However I am doing a solid to those that want to reconcile both. 

I personally don't care what is retconned of not.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

3 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Like I said, it depends on people's take on it. If fools can still say Pear Butter is alive ... then this too shall be open to interpretation. As it stands ... the unknown passage of time with the hint that either some time has passed or he kinda had an inkling of what it would grow into. 

I kinda look at historical documents for fun. You would be amazed at how many times people get shit wrong. Memory changes every time we recall the memory. Image that memory after 1000 years. Take your pick. 

Well, Pear Butter feels open because they never say the word death even though she is very clearly dead

But this is different, the Journal is 1,000 years old in continuity, and Starswirls last memory is 1,000+ years ago as there is no time in Limbo. Nothing adds up now with the Journal and Starswirl. The Tree is fully grown, Starswirl knows something about Twilight, etc.

 

I am...okay with the now canon origin story of the tree, it is just weird how it is this unlimited godly force that can vanquish all evil, when it is just a seed of magic from the pillars of old Equestria.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[Jeric 46,869]

Just now, melody5697 said:

We're talking about information from journals here. Journals written when these things happened.

I have several other options. A buffet if you will. Pick and choose as you see fit. If you don't want yo believe it's canon ... cool. If someone else does ... it's fine by me too ...