To drive a villain where the audience feels sorry for her/him?

[SaburoDaimando 1,196]

Cry for the Devil- A trope where the audience actually has empathy for the villain.  

So far when it comes to this trope: Starlight Glimmer counts towards this considering what's she been through, as confirmed on the Cutie Remark part 2 YMMV page.  However, Tempest Shadow would also qualify considering her backstory as well.  But there may be a chance that another villain may have some backstory that would lead to this trope.

How would you feel if another villain like Chrysalis, Sombra or especially Lord Tirek had a tragic secret that lead him or her down this path?

Personally, as someone who loved seeing Tirek in G4, I wouldn't mind if there was a side to him that the audience felt sorry for.  One that made him become a villain, because of some tragedy in his past that made him realize that going evil is the only way.

 

[ShadOBabe 19,011]

I don’t believe those count because they turned into good characters.

Cry for the Devil is when an actual villain STAYS a villain and yet you still feel bad for them. Once they turn good, it becomes Heel-Face Turn.

Good examples can be found in the Batman Rogues Gallery. They’re all vicious and dangerous, but they’re all also incredibly mentally ill people and most of them have been through brutally traumatizing events in their lives.

Edited February 15, 2018 by ShadOBabe

[Will Guide 21,362]

Just now, ShadOBabe said:

I don’t believe those count because they turned into good characters.

Cry for the Devil is when an actual villain STAYS a villain and yet you still feel bad for them.

Good examples can be found in the Batman Rogues Gallery. They’re all vicious and dangerous, but they’re all also incredibly mentally ill and most of them have been through brutally traumatizing events in their lives.

You're right, Shade.

The two are indeed subtly different (I'm using the TV tropes Lanoic definition but providing a link to the main page of each:

Cry for the Devil: The villain is shown from a sympathetic viewpoint, and the audience comes to pity them.

Sympathy for the Devil: Good guy sympathizes with bad guy.

The main difference is Cry is for the audience only; the characters still hate him while Sympathy is when the characters themselves feel sorry for the Villain, even if the audience doesn't.

See the difference, @SaburoDaimando?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Yeah I wouldn't really want that, I think what we got with Starlight/Tempest was enough for that kind of concept in a broad sense. I want villains who are just bad, maybe they have good backstories, but I at least want one more evil monster villain who is an evil monster, they can still be interesting.

[Total Lunar Eclipse 516]

I love when 'villains' are well rounded characters in their own right with their own feelings and mental illness. Tempest is my favorite character.

There are plenty of 'villains' in real life who don't have reasoning and will never change though. I do wish MLP had more villains like this just because I think kids need to understand that not everyone is good inside. 

[Brony Number 42 10,072]

I lose any sympathy if the villain crosses certain lines. Murder or attempted murder is one of them. Total enslavement too, with some exceptions. Starlight enslaved ponies but she thought she was doing good. And she changed her ways, and ultimately nopony was killed. 

I think some villains should remain bad to keep things interesting. You can't change some people and you have to deal with that.

[Mirage 24,771]

Altogether this is a very deep question. I'll do my best to summarize what I know villains are for:

A villain(s) upsets a content or peaceful situation. The hero(es), must reset the situation, and learn something along the way.

The redemption of villains is a very, very risky idea. Villains needs to be defeated, because a villain is supposed to represent chaos and disorder, so much so we instinctively want it gone, like an infection. Villains make the story 'sick', and the heroes are the doctors.

Do you want to make friends with your mucus? No, you want it gone. When the villain is defeated, the story is (supposed) to be over.

Redemption is a universal desire, I think we all understand that. But I think we also somehow require that redemption be deserved somehow - it should be more than just given...it needs to be earned through trial and fire - ie - the villain must, rather unintentionally, become heroic by realizing their intrinsic worth.

Starlight is an interesting situation. She was presented as redeemable from the outset (she's cute!). So I think Starlight's story is a decent example of the problem (the villain) being somewhat disembodied (an evil ideal) from the subject (Starlight herself). She just had to realize her hypocrisy and pay for it with humiliation. And now, she serves her 'penance' as a student of Twilight. IMO, a very endearing and nicely done scenario.

So to answer the question more directly - villains should be interesting. Which means they should have many faces, like we all do. A villain that is just pure evil is not a character.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

The show went over-board with redemption theme that killed some tension the previous seasons had, they have to make Pony of Shadow very harmless to reform him because some lines cannot be crossed so they will tone down the villain so they can easy reform him/her. One thing that annoyed me in the movie is how ponies invite those yetis who just invaded them in the same day, should make them clean the stage after the party instead of Spike, they didn't deserve a party.

[Hierok 11,832]

Sombra already is. I really felt sorry for him in siege of the crystal empire.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

8 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

The show went over-board with redemption theme that killed some tension the previous seasons had, they have to make Pony of Shadow very harmless to reform him because some lines cannot be crossed so they will tone down the villain so they can easy reform him/her. One thing that annoyed me in the movie is how ponies invite those yetis who just invaded them in the same day, should make them clean the stage after the party instead of Spike, they didn't deserve a party.

I never really got that, Tirek wasn' reformed, Starlight was but at the time in the s5 premiere we didn't know that, Chrysalis didn't reform in the season 6 finale, and only 1/2 of the villain in shadow play reformed. Reformation isn't as common as people say.

[TBD 17,256]

I want a little of both villian turning bad against his will and on his own will. But the story needs to be good enough to convinced me they have a good motive for their action.

Although I'm getting a little tired with "darkness taking over" baddies, it's so overused in mlp. Two or one is okay but five??  That just gave the baddies an excuse to go scott free just because "it's not their fault  they got corrupted "  bullcrap.  I prefer villains who acted it on their own free will, since it helps build the sympathy for the character more. And to learn from them.

Edited February 15, 2018 by TBD, Scoffer of TBA

[Thrond 3,263]

18 hours ago, SaburoDaimando said:

Chrysalis

 

18 hours ago, SaburoDaimando said:

Lord Tirek

I wouldn't be terribly interested in it with these characters. I feel like making up a pathological excuse for being a terrible person is kinda trite and reductive. 

18 hours ago, SaburoDaimando said:

Sombra

Does he already have one in the comics?

A new character would probably be relatively interesting if explored in enough detail, or at least more than Starlight or Tempest, which wouldn't be terribly hard. At this point I don't care about this show trying to be suspenseful or intense, but on the other hand, a lot of fun character moments have come in this show from the presence of an overwhelming sinister force. 

9 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

The show went over-board with redemption theme that killed some tension the previous seasons had, they have to make Pony of Shadow very harmless to reform him because some lines cannot be crossed so they will tone down the villain so they can easy reform him/her. One thing that annoyed me in the movie is how ponies invite those yetis who just invaded them in the same day, should make them clean the stage after the party instead of Spike, they didn't deserve a party.

I have many complaints about the Pony of Shadows, but a lack of menace isn't really one of them, because the story really isn't about that. Constant redemptions are maybe unrealistic, but giving villains sympathetic aspects is an easy way to make them deeper and more interesting. 

I completely forgot the yeti thing from the movie, and I still don't remember what happened. A similar example I always come back to is the yaks, who maybe shouldn't have smashed the ponies' party efforts, but who I still understood as a different culture with different values which the ponies made an extremely clumsy and ignorant effort to appeal to. Sometimes, harmony requires a mutual respect for conflicting or confusing cultural values, and it's not right to punish people for failing to conform. And sometimes, peace requires putting very recent conflicts behind you. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

18 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

never really got that, Tirek wasn' reformed, Starlight was but at the time in the s5 premiere we didn't know that, Chrysalis didn't reform in the season 6 finale, and only 1/2 of the villain in shadow play reformed. Reformation isn't as common as people say.

It isnt about villain punisnment/reformation ratio, it's a trend that started to happen in succession. Furthermore, one of Meghan video stated her ideal is that no one's bad, suggested that what they are trying to do. They reformed Discord, then Sunset, then Starlight, then subvert our expectations with Chrysalis because they knew we are expecting them keep doing so (that what make To Where great to me but we know her reformation is unavoidable), then they reformed all the changelings, then Jupiter Montage (they even make fun of how our main characters are so forgiving ), then they reformed one more villian in the movie before they reformed another in the next few weeks.See the patterns? 

I am not against reformation story if they make them decent  and i would be happier if they didnt remove what made a villain character so entertaining. Pony of Shadow is what happen when writers really want to continue villain reformation trend but forget to write a really threatning villain, Stygian is cool character but his Shadow persona is weak. If you want an effective villain that didnt have to take much the screentime of our main character, look at Sombra.

Even Nightmare Moon in S1 is a joke, at least i feel she's doing something... evil~

20 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Constant redemptions are maybe unrealistic, but giving villains sympathetic aspects is an easy way to make them deeper and more interesting. 

And people should not forget villains have to be main character's great obstacles too, they have to do something to prevent our main character archieve his/her goals. Let villains kick some bubby or kittens..... where all the fun?

On 2/16/2018 at 3:34 AM, AlexanderThrond said:

I completely forgot the yeti thing from the movie, and I still don't remember what happened.

In the credit scenes, those Storm King soldiers are dancing along with ponies... make me feel uncomfortable.

On 2/16/2018 at 3:34 AM, AlexanderThrond said:

A similar example I always come back to is the yaks, who maybe shouldn't have smashed the ponies' party efforts, but who I still understood as a different culture with different values which the ponies made an extremely clumsy and ignorant effort to appeal to.

I agreed about Yaks, that why i cant have anything negative things to say about Party Pooped, its my favorite one, but what about those Storm King soldiers?

Gah, i know those are silly credit scenes but still..........

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, Lambdadelta said:

And people should not forget villains have to be main character's great obstacles too, they have to do something to prevent our main character archieve his/her goals. Let villains kick some bubby or kittens..... where all the fun?

Fun can be had without a generic hero vs. evil villain storyline. Just look at that’s Thorax episode in season 6. Besides, Starswirl is the real villain of “Shadow Play.” 

1 hour ago, Lambdadelta said:

In the credit scenes, those Storm King soldiers are dancing along with ponies... make me feel uncomfortable.

The movie makes very few choices I can come up with justifications for. 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

5 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

It isnt about villain punisnment/reformation ratio, it's a trend that started to happen in succession. Furthermore, one of Meghan video stated her ideal is that no one's bad, suggested that what they are trying to do. They reformed Discord, then Sunset, then Starlight, then subvert our expectations with Chrysalis because they knew we are expecting them keep doing so (that what make To Where great to me but we know her reformation is unavoidable), then they reformed all the changelings, then Jupiter Montage (they even make fun of how our main characters are so forgiving ), then they reformed one more villian in the movie before they reformed another in the next few weeks.See the patterns? 

 

2

At the same time, they didn't reform the Shadow, they didn't reform the Storm King, I honestly don't think Chrysalis will get one, they didn't reform Sombra, or the Sirens

Right now reformation to no reformation is literally half and half. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

6 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Just look at that’s Thorax episode in season 6.

Thorax is a good guy from the beginning, he wasn't reformed  

6 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Besides, Starswirl is the real villain of “Shadow Play.”

I think Starswirl fit the definition of 'antagonist', he may actively act hostile to the main character but he doesnt have any evil motives. The shadow is the villain, Starswirl is the antagonist.

6 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Fun can be had without a generic hero vs. evil villain storyline

The old-schools have their place and over-complicated things is not always the best. Look back Return of Harmony, Canterlot Wedding, Crystal Empire and Twilight Kingdom, then compare them to the mlp movie. 

Starlight Glimmer (villain) is one of the few villain of the show has actual depth, entertaining personality and definitely not a person you could mess with. Tempest is super cool but they should make her the big bad.

"How could our main character win this?". That intensity has been fading away since S5 finale, the excitement of witnessing our characters overcomed such great challenges...... At least S6 finale tried and the big Chrysalis's "fuck your reformation speech" moment remind me of Wonder Over Yonder S2 finale, its great.

2 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Right now reformation to no reformation is literally half and half.

Yes, you right. In statistics, they are perfectly balance. Maybe i am the only one who realize the recent new villain/antagonist are getting worse to get the point (notable Gloriosa, Pony of Shadow, Storm King, Jupiter Montage). Adding sympathetic aspect to the villains is good for relatability purposes but they should remind us that the villains are the one you should never mess with or dare to ignore them. 

Maybe S8 will do something different...

[Thrond 3,263]

10 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

Thorax is a good guy from the beginning, he wasn't reformed  

And yet that story still had plenty of fun and tension.

10 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

I think Starswirl fit the definition of 'antagonist', he may actively act hostile to the main character but he doesnt have any evil motives. The shadow is the villain, Starswirl is the antagonist.

If Starswirl so effectively drives the plot in place of a domineering villain, then is a villain strictly necessary? In this story, I don't think it was, and while I might have preferred a simple "defeat the baddie" story, it wouldn't have fit the episode. 

10 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

The old-schools have their place and over-complicated things is not always the best. Look back Return of Harmony, Canterlot Wedding, Crystal Empire and Twilight Kingdom, then compare them to the mlp movie. 

I don't like Tempest Shadow. I think she would have been a bad character with or without the tragic backstory. If anything, that half-baked attempt to make her sympathetic makes her slightly less terrible. 

10 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

"How could our main character win this?". That intensity has been fading away since S5 finale, the excitement of witnessing our characters overcomed such great challenges...... At least S6 finale tried and the big Chrysalis's "fuck your reformation speech" moment remind me of Wonder Over Yonder S2 finale, its great.

I think the season 6 finale really emphasizes what makes such stories work: they allow for certain character moments we might not have gotten otherwise. The season 6 and season 7 finales convinced me that neither type of villain is better than the other, but I don't think the show suffers for its increasingly redemption-oriented philosophy. 

 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I politely disagree. Tirek would have been much less menacing if we were meant to feel sorry for him. Any sympathy he had was destroyed when he did away with his own brother. Just because a villain isn't meant to be sympathetic doesn't make them a boring character.

[Singe 2,111]

Like Canterlot Wedding Part One, I would take the approach of society forces it upon a character like some kind of false allegation and everyone of that character's friends/family turns their back on this character. That's a starting point.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Singe

[heavens-champion 1,905]

From what I've seen on the Internet, a lot of people seem to hate it when a villain becomes tragic.

[Brainstorm 4,112]

I think they're only reforming characters who are either Hurt or Corrupted/Brainwashed, they can't reform every villain they face.