S08:E20 - The Washouts

[ggg-2 3,553]

Rolling Thunder is my favorite Washouts member. (I like Australian accents. Sue me.)

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Pay attention to every detail in this ep and ignore Spitfire scene (or how Scootaloo forgot LD), this ep just get better everytime you rewatch it. Scootaloo reactions in everything happen in this ep are top-notch. 

[BrawnyCharger 512]

I thought this was a great episode. I liked the lesson it taught about reckless stunts. It was really interesting to see what happened to Lightning Dust after being kicked out of the Wonderbolts. I'm also glad that Lightning Dust wasn't reformed. 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

Overall, I'd say that this was a decent episode. I'll admit that I'm a bit of a sucker for Rainbow showing her sensitive side and being affectionate toward Scootaloo, both of which we get in this episode. We get some nice interaction between Twilight and Rainbow, and we even see Twilight helping Scootaloo eavesdrop on her fan club at the end of the episode. It's also amusing to watch Rainbow kind of freak out about Scootaloo's starting a different fan club at the start of the episode, and to see Rainbow confronting Scootaloo about it, even though yeah, the mere fact that Scootaloo is "exploring other fan clubs" shouldn't in itself be a problem. I'm glad, though, that Rainbow's determination to put down the Washouts and prove that she and the Wonderbolts are better faded away and caring for Scootaloo's safety came to the forefront.

However, some of the gags, like Rainbow's claiming that bleachers and refreshments are rip-offs and Spitfire's yelling-in-Scootaloo's-face routine, crossed the line into being annoying. I wish Rainbow could have better defended the reasons why the Wonderbolts follow safety rules, and why the Washouts were kicked out of the Wonderbolts. It's also a little frustrating to watch Rainbow do things like just telling Scootaloo "no!", physically carrying/dragging her away, and unilaterally ripping up and throwing away her Washouts memorabilia, all of which aren't going to be convincing and are liable to make Scootaloo even more rebellious. Finally, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the Washouts - as adults with full knowledge of what they're doing - choosing to perform extreme stunts that only endanger themselves and each other, and their performance was pretty good. But then, of course, Lightning Dust has to completely disregard Scootaloo's safety and force her into doing a very dangerous stunt that none of them has done before, even as Lightning Dust knows that Scootaloo can't fly and is only a middle-school-age (or so) kid, all of which comes across as rather over-the-top and simplistic.

-----

First, I'll talk about Rainbow's responses to Lightning Dust's reasoning for being glad to leave the Wonderbolts and to start the Washouts.

When Lightning Dust, Rainbow, and Scootaloo are talking after the first performance, Lightning Dust says that the Washouts' secret is that they "basically ignore everything the Wonderbolts ever taught us about safety", to which Rainbow replies "Well, we do have safety rules for a reason". Then Lightning Dust says "All their "rules" were just ways of keeping their little club exclusive so they could feel good about themselves", to which Rainbow replies "It's not about making anypony feel bad. It's about finding the best flyers. The best of the best". Rainbow's last response in particular seemed kind of odd, and it also apparently was an impetus for Rainbow's and Scootaloo's falling out later in the episode.

When Rainbow says that the Wonderbolts are looking for "the best of the best", my first thought was "the best of the best in what?". Presumably the Wonderbolts are looking for more than just members with "the best" flying ability, or else the Washouts might still be in the Wonderbolts now. Shouldn't the Wonderbolts (at least in theory) also be looking for members with "the best" integrity, dependability to their fellow Wonderbolts, dedication to protecting Equestria, etc.? In multiple previous episodes ("Wonderbolts Academy", "Rainbow Falls", "Rarity Investigates!"), Rainbow demonstrated to and reminded the Wonderbolts of these higher ideals that they should be standing for.

With that in mind, Rainbow says "Cool!" to Rolling Thunder's story of getting booted from the Wonderbolts for "flagrant disregard for hazardous weather", but couldn't Rolling Thunder's reckless flying be considered "not cool", even if she wasn't endangering anyone but herself? If Wonderbolts have duties to protect and serve their fellow Wonderbolts and Equestria, then they can't well fulfill those duties if they needlessly injure or kill themselves. So if the Washouts (as adults who are fully knowledgeable of what they're doing) want to endanger themselves and each other doing extreme stunts, then fine. But if the Wonderbolts have these duties and ideals to uphold, then they have good reason to kick ponies out who have as their primary concern doing the most extreme feats, regardless of how much that endangers themselves, their wingponies, or others.

That could even be a pitch for why Scootaloo should still consider Rainbow and the Wonderbolts to be admirable, even if they don't perform as extreme of stunts as the Washouts do. I'll admit, though, that I don't know how much weight Scootaloo would place on things like "integrity" and "looking out for your fellow Wonderbolts" and "protecting Equestria", rather than "cool stunts!".

-----

Next, here's some larger observations I have about Scootaloo's stunt and how the characters reacted to it.

When Scootaloo says the stunt that she's going to do tonight, Twilight just asks "Scootaloo, are you sure that's what you really want to do?". I feel like Twilight or Rainbow could have asked what the logistics of this stunt are, what practice or experience Scootaloo is going to have before doing the stunt in the performance tonight, and whether Scootaloo will really be capable of doing the stunt in that short of notice. Is Twilight (and Rainbow) just assuming that Lightning Dust and the Washouts already worked this all out, and that Scootaloo will definitely be up to performing the stunt tonight? I'm not sure that Twilight (or the rest of the Mane Six, for that matter) seems all that concerned.

Others have pointed out that the other CMCs are nowhere to be seen in this episode, but I also noticed that Scootaloo's parents/guardians (assuming that she's not a homeless orphan) are nowhere to be seen, either. I particularly thought of this when Scootaloo says that she "absolutely" wants to do the stunt tonight, and tells Rainbow that "there's nothing you can do to stop me!". If Rainbow really fears that Scootaloo will seriously injure or kill herself, then I would think Rainbow could go to Scootaloo's parents/guardians, who might want to know what Scootaloo is planning to do, and would have more authority than Rainbow does to stop Scootaloo from carrying through with it.

Also, I don't know how Scootaloo's stunt was supposed to work, with the way that it was set up. Both the launching ramp and the landing ramp end up pointing essentially straight up in the air. So how is Scootaloo supposed to use those ramps to cross the horizontal distance of the 22 wagons if the ramps will orient her scooter/rocket to go straight up? Also, how much boost and how much fuel is really necessary to accomplish that? What was Scootaloo supposed to do to stop, even if she reached the other side? Was Scootaloo actually intended to blast off hundreds of feet into the air? Then what, would Scootaloo and the rocket just freefall down on the other side to land at terminal velocity?

Finally, did Scootaloo do any practicing or ask about the logistics of her stunt prior to performance time? Earlier in the episode, just after Spitfire told Scootaloo what happens when something goes wrong with the Crushinator Jaws of Smashalot, Scootaloo said "But with enough practice—" before being interrupted by Spitfire again. That would seem to indicate that Scootaloo thought it was important and necessary to practice these dangerous stunts before doing them. So was Scootaloo just too angsty and rebellious to remember that she herself thought that it was important to practice dangerous stunts in order to do them?

-----

Now here are the rest of my miscellaneous observations:

When Rainbow is hovering in the air holding a Washouts poster, and asks who they are, Scootaloo jumps and holds herself up on Rainbow's leg, using only her one or two front legs, without even straining or breaking a sweat. We've seen Scootaloo's athletic ability before, and this might be another example of that.

As I've seen others point out, the Washouts may be wearing protective fireproof flight suits, but their wings and manes are still sticking out of those flight suits, so we would think that those are liable to be burned or damaged.

The way in which "L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-Lightning Dust!" is announced made me think of the similar way that the first syllable of "Li-Li-Li-Li-Li-Li-Li-Li-Li-Linda" is repeated in the 1963 hit song "Linda" by Jan & Dean.

Scootaloo is telling Lightning Dust about starting "Equestria's first Washouts fan club" as they're flying up for Scootaloo to do her stunt at the performance. Is this really a good time to be talking about that? Couldn't Scootaloo, say, be going over the logistics of her stunt, or getting in the zone, or something like that?

As Lightning Dust and Scootaloo emerge from the clouds, before they land, we see the big rocket with the two smaller rockets already taped to the sides. However, once Lightning Dust and Scootaloo land, the big rocket no longer has the smaller rockets taped to the sides, and Lightning Dust then proceeds to tape the smaller rockets on.

When Lightning Dust tells Scootaloo "You wouldn't want to get impeached for dishonoring my wishes, would you?", Scootaloo wonders "Is that a thing?". But considering that Scootaloo was the one that started the fan club, I would think that she would have written, or would be aware of, the rules for how presidents of the fan club are selected.

I made a more in-depth post here about some observations I had of the strange behavior of the rope which wraps around the wheel of Scootaloo's rocket and later pulls Lightning Dust off into the sky.

When Rainbow says that she knows "a fan club that could use some new members", we see Twilight, Rarity and Applejack walk up behind Rainbow. I thought that meant that they would be members of Rainbow's new Scootaloo fan club, but then we don't see them at the first Scootaloo fan club meeting, other than Twilight, who's outside. It is nice, though, to see Twilight helping Scootaloo.

It's also a nice touch to see Rainbow's parents at the Scootaloo fan club meeting. Since I presume that Rainbow went to her parents and told them about the fan club, that would confirm that Rainbow continues to be on good terms with her parents now.

On 9/8/2018 at 12:44 PM, Truffles said:

I guess Spike has had enough of air shows after what happened to him in "Newbie Dash."  But it could just as easily be he and Starlight were back at the school helping run things while the Mane 6 went to the show. I suppose the same thing could be said for Apple Bloom and Sweetie Belle, though their absence at all the other times in the episode they should have been there to guide Scootaloo is still pretty glaring.

I hadn't noticed that we don't see Spike or Starlight with the Mane Six in this episode. Rainbow reads from the Washouts flyer that their first performance in Ponyville would be "this weekend", so the students at the Friendship School probably wouldn't have classes, at least. We also see most of the Student Six (except Sandbar?) at the first Washouts performance, sitting in the bleachers in the background. But, especially considering that the students appear to live at the Friendship School full-time, Spike and Starlight may have been the designated "skeleton crew" to keep an eye on the School and the Castle, and be available for emergencies.

On 9/8/2018 at 12:44 PM, Truffles said:

Is there a continuity/animation error in this episode? Rolling Thunder is the pony who is supposedly injured in "The Crushinator," but during the finale, it's clearly Lightning Dust who gets crushed due to the green wings and orange hair poking through the flight suit. Did the animators goof and put the wrong pony in? Or am I missing something?

Good catch! We never see Rolling Thunder fly through (or even near) the Crushinator Jaws of Smashalot; that was Lightning Dust. In fact, we don't see Rolling Thunder get injured at any other point during the performance, nor do we see any sign of prior injury on her leg. Was there more to the performance than what we saw, or was there some additional different performance that occurred in the time between jump cuts, maybe?

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,824]

I really like how this episode turned out. What was so cool was how the writers presented the double conflict. Of course, great continuity with the sister thing between Rainbow and Scoots. See, the thing I like about this episode was how Rainbow's rivalry and stigma against Lightning Dust caused a new side of her to arise, a motherly side that ties with her loyalty trait. The greatest strength of this episode was towards the end, when Rainbow admitted she was overprotective, but in reality Scootaloo had the freedom and ability to make decisions about what she likes or doesn't like. Some may say the overprotectiveness of Rainbow Dash was too cringy, but I say it served a purpose to show how when you have a deep relationship with someone (family, girlfriend, wife, husband etc.), your concern for them rises, and with that, it can produce a little fear, which can grow into an obstacle due to the fact that the fear of losing someone actually inhibits them to make decisions on their own. 

This is why this episode was so good. 

[Justin_Case001 4,888]

Okay, not great.

I saw Lightning Dust coming a mile away, but that's not a bad thing.  I think it's great that they brought her back.  That's a character I was hoping to see again.

Um....it wasn't a bad episode, but there was something about it that left me feeling kinda....sour.  I'm not quite sure what it is.  One thing I can say for sure is that I just knew I was going to be annoyed by how full of herself Rainbow acted.  The scene where she tore down the Washout memorabilia while going on about her own awesomeness made me facepalm.  I don't want Rainbow to become the Princess of Humility or anything, but I think she should be a little more mature by now.  I think that, as a 'bolt, she has a responsibility to be a better role model now.

But there was something else I didn't like, and I can't quite put my hoof on it.  Not really sure how to explain it.  It was a good premise, but...I think.....I think it just felt a little rushed, a little...obvious, a little....cliché, perhaps.  I feel like I'm being overly critical, but I also feel like the majority of the show has set a higher standard of intelligence, cleverness, and subtlety.  It just sort of felt like everything was spoon-fed here.  Like....I dunno....it was like.....instead of watching a story, it felt like I was just listening to a reading of a rough outline where the ponies just state what's happening.  As I was listening to the dialogue, it was as if I was just hearing the characters say:

"Here's the cold open!"

"Here's act 1!"

"Here's that pony from season 3!"

"Here's what happens next!"

"Dangerous stunts, bad influence, don't want to lose my number 1 fan!"

"Here's the next act!"

"Ohmygosh!  I'm suddenly realizing that Lightning Dust isn't the pony I thought and she isn't concerned for my safety and I'm learning a lesson and I'm gonna go back to Rainbow Dash!"

"RESOLUTION!"

Yeah.  That's kinda what it felt like.  Just....like....so.....shoved together.  More like a fan recap or something.

Sometimes I find myself asking what it is I like so much about this show, when it seems like I do more complaining than anything else.  I ask myself, do I really like this show?  Do I really like it, for what it is?  Or do I just like the art style and some vision of what the stories could be in my head?  But then I remember The Perfect Pear, The Mane Attraction, and Amending Fences, and I remember why I love it.  Those episodes are like Disney classics in that anyone, at any age, can watch them and love them.  They are ageless.  It's like The Little Mermaid or Beauty and the Beast.  When I watch those movies as an adult, I don't think, "Lol, why did I ever like this when I was little?  It's so silly."  No, I love those movies just as much as I always did, and I still think they're masterpieces.  That's how I feel about the best Pony episodes.  The unfortunate truth about Pony is simply that it's wildly inconsistent.  That's all.  This season seems like it might be the worst, in my opinion, but the show still has a chance to be great, and I just hope they go out on top.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Justin_Case001

[Brainstorm 4,108]

The Washouts are former Wonderbolts who takes their extreme too far. I like how this episode shows you don't have to be dangerous to be awesome.

[ImpctR 155]

On 8/20/2018 at 6:51 AM, PacificGreen said:

Well, as didactic and relatable as this show is, at the end it's still a cartoon about colorful, magical ponies making friends, so weird logic like that personally doesn't bother me too much. Probably not the best response, I know, but still. XD

You just wait and see the talk about lawsuits and what-not other modern world examples discussed here. I am writing stories too sometimes, fantasy and sci fi and I facepalm when I see these.

[Thrond 3,263]

I've had some time to consider what I think bothers me about this episode. The general emotional reactions, which is to say what I found funny and what I found annoying, can be found in my previous post. Otherwise: 

• This episode gestures a lot at the idea that Rainbow should allow Scootaloo to make her own decisions, and makes several jokes at the expense of her apparent jealousy of the Washouts, but the ending and stated moral don't reflect that at all. I can complain about Lightning Dust all I want, but the biggest problem with that ending is that Rainbow is validated. She doesn't learn anything about letting Scootaloo have her own life and opinions, and they still completely dismiss the Washouts in the end. 
• That's why I think the jealousy stuff is a distraction. As stated in the ending, the most powerful idea here is that Rainbow's smothering was making Scootaloo feel impotent, and in certain scenes that pretty clearly reverberates. There's something to be said about Scootaloo's disability interfering with her admiration of Rainbow Dash, but contrary to what others have said, I find Rainbow's motivations here overly simplistic and self-centred. Of course she would favour the Wonderbolts, but too often she seems upset because the Washouts aren't the Wonderbolts, not because she's worried for Scootaloo's safety. And because we don't see her engaging in very much self-reflection on-screen, both sides of her motivation feel too simplistic. 
• On the other hand, I don't see why Lightning Dust deserves all the blame for Scootaloo favouring danger. In the ending, the implication is that she was exploiting Scootaloo, but it's Scootaloo who chose to sign on. Scootaloo clearly learns that she doesn't like to be a daredevil here, but when they're explaining the moral, she just dumps all the blame onto Lightning Dust. 
• And I think Lightning Dust is actually not nearly cartoonish enough for how the show treats her in the end. She's found a comfortable calling in life, has some potentially interesting points, and doesn't even hold a grudge. But she doesn't really exhibit any growth, and I'm not remotely interested enough in the episode's simplistic safety-first argument to find her an appealing foil for Rainbow. In her first episode, the gray elements of her morality complemented the themes. Here, I'd almost argue she's given too much dignity. 
• Mostly, I found this muddled. You have the whole Wonderbolts vs. Washouts safety thing, you have Dash's wounded ego, you have Dash being overprotective, and then you have Scootaloo feeling like she's not good enough. I feel like these themes aren't mixed very well, so whenever the episode shifted - most nobably, from jealous Dash to concerned Dash - I found it incredibly jarring, and I feel many elements actively clash with each other. How am I supposed to reconcile the jokes about Dash's jealousy with the moral about how the Washouts are bad? It all competes so much for screen time that I felt the most important morals weren't given enough time to breathe, and so certain key moments felt like assertions rather than earned plot beats. At one point, Lightning Dust begins to argue against the Wonderbolts' rules, but we never hear her side of the story. There's a lot going on, and yet it all feels simplistic in the end. 
• I often have similar problems with Confalone's writing. I do find that he can get some really funny moments out of these characters, but I consistently feel that he's incompetent at any sort of depth or complexity. He has a certain way of reducing the characters to their most outward traits, which can make them seem insensitive when he's trying to convey a point. Just let him make fluff. 

Score:
Entertainment: 7/10
Characters: 5/10
Themes: 6/10
Story: 6/10
Overall: 60/100

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

14 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I've had some time to consider what I think bothers me about this episode. The general emotional reactions, which is to say what I found funny and what I found annoying, can be found in my previous post. Otherwise: 

• This episode gestures a lot at the idea that Rainbow should allow Scootaloo to make her own decisions, and makes several jokes at the expense of her apparent jealousy of the Washouts, but the ending and stated moral don't reflect that at all. I can complain about Lightning Dust all I want, but the biggest problem with that ending is that Rainbow is validated. She doesn't learn anything about letting Scootaloo have her own life and opinions, and they still completely dismiss the Washouts in the end. 
• That's why I think the jealousy stuff is a distraction. As stated in the ending, the most powerful idea here is that Rainbow's smothering was making Scootaloo feel impotent, and in certain scenes that pretty clearly reverberates. There's something to be said about Scootaloo's disability interfering with her admiration of Rainbow Dash, but contrary to what others have said, I find Rainbow's motivations here overly simplistic and self-centred. Of course she would favour the Wonderbolts, but too often she seems upset because the Washouts aren't the Wonderbolts, not because she's worried for Scootaloo's safety. And because we don't see her engaging in very much self-reflection on-screen, both sides of her motivation feel too simplistic. 
• On the other hand, I don't see why Lightning Dust deserves all the blame for Scootaloo favouring danger. In the ending, the implication is that she was exploiting Scootaloo, but it's Scootaloo who chose to sign on. Scootaloo clearly learns that she doesn't like to be a daredevil here, but when they're explaining the moral, she just dumps all the blame onto Lightning Dust. 
• And I think Lightning Dust is actually not nearly cartoonish enough for how the show treats her in the end. She's found a comfortable calling in life, has some potentially interesting points, and doesn't even hold a grudge. But she doesn't really exhibit any growth, and I'm not remotely interested enough in the episode's simplistic safety-first argument to find her an appealing foil for Rainbow. In her first episode, the gray elements of her morality complemented the themes. Here, I'd almost argue she's given too much dignity. 
• Mostly, I found this muddled. You have the whole Wonderbolts vs. Washouts safety thing, you have Dash's wounded ego, you have Dash being overprotective, and then you have Scootaloo feeling like she's not good enough. I feel like these themes aren't mixed very well, so whenever the episode shifted - most nobably, from jealous Dash to concerned Dash - I found it incredibly jarring, and I feel many elements actively clash with each other. How am I supposed to reconcile the jokes about Dash's jealousy with the moral about how the Washouts are bad? It all competes so much for screen time that I felt the most important morals weren't given enough time to breathe, and so certain key moments felt like assertions rather than earned plot beats. At one point, Lightning Dust begins to argue against the Wonderbolts' rules, but we never hear her side of the story. There's a lot going on, and yet it all feels simplistic in the end. 
• I often have similar problems with Confalone's writing. I do find that he can get some really funny moments out of these characters, but I consistently feel that he's incompetent at any sort of depth or complexity. He has a certain way of reducing the characters to their most outward traits, which can make them seem insensitive when he's trying to convey a point. Just let him make fluff. 

Score:
Entertainment: 7/10
Characters: 5/10
Themes: 6/10
Story: 6/10
Overall: 60/100

Hmm, everyone's a critic these days... 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

19 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

• This episode gestures a lot at the idea that Rainbow should allow Scootaloo to make her own decisions, and makes several jokes at the expense of her apparent jealousy of the Washouts, but the ending and stated moral don't reflect that at all. I can complain about Lightning Dust all I want, but the biggest problem with that ending is that Rainbow is validated. She doesn't learn anything about letting Scootaloo have her own life and opinions, and they still completely dismiss the Washouts in the end. 

          ...

• On the other hand, I don't see why Lightning Dust deserves all the blame for Scootaloo favouring danger. In the ending, the implication is that she was exploiting Scootaloo, but it's Scootaloo who chose to sign on. Scootaloo clearly learns that she doesn't like to be a daredevil here, but when they're explaining the moral, she just dumps all the blame onto Lightning Dust. 

Regarding these two points, one complicating factor that I see here, even though it's not really addressed in the episode, is that I view Scootaloo and the CMC as being developmentally equivalent to middle-schoolers or 12-to-14-year-olds. And if that's the case, then that raises some questions. Should Scootaloo, or 12-to-14-year-olds in general, be treated as fully adult? Does Scootaloo, or 12-to-14-year-olds in general, have the knowledge, life experience, and/or developmental capacity to fully consent to activities with a high risk of serious injury or death?

If the answers to these questions are "no" or "not really", then I think it's easier to see Lightning Dust and the Washouts as being substantially responsible for the situation. Lightning Dust and the Washouts goaded/pressured Scootaloo into agreeing to do a highly dangerous stunt which she's not capable of fully consenting to doing, and then Lightning Dust forced Scootaloo to do the stunt even as she feared for her safety and wanted to back out. Also, in this paradigm, the Washouts could be seen as supervisory adults taking substantial responsibility for Scootaloo's safety, since Scootaloo wouldn't be considered a full adult yet. That might be one reason why Twilight and the other four of the Mane Six seem to have little or no concern for Scootaloo's safety, and don't try to stop her from doing the stunt - they might have assumed that Scootaloo was "in good hands" (so to speak) with Lightning Dust and the Washouts. But that turned out not to be the case. The Washouts had Scootaloo do this stunt even though they hadn't tested it before, Scootaloo had apparently never practiced it, and, given the way it was set up, I don't even know how the stunt was supposed to work.

To think about it another way, in the real world, if a supervising adult goaded/pressured a 12-to-14-year-old into doing a highly dangerous stunt with no testing or practice, and that 12-to-14-year-old was subsequently seriously injured or killed, would people generally say "Well, that was the 12-to-14-year-old's decision to make, and now he/she has to deal with the consequences"? Or would people generally consider that adult substantially (if not entirely) responsible?

Also, if Scootaloo shouldn't be considered fully able to consent to a highly dangerous stunt like this, and Rainbow believes that the Washouts are not taking their responsibility for Scootaloo's safety seriously, then, from that perspective, Rainbow might have been justified in stopping Scootaloo from doing the stunt outright, even against her wishes. In that case, Rainbow would be seen as actually exercising restraint in allowing Scootaloo to attempt the stunt anyway, and being ready to rescue her before any serious harm came to pass.

I would say that Scootaloo does need to learn to take more responsibility for her own safety, and that could have been more explicitly addressed in the episode. But we might be meant to hope or assume that, after her brush with serious injury or death, Scootaloo will take her own safety more seriously going forward. And yeah, Rainbow was being too controlling of Scootaloo prior to her joining the Washouts, and that also could have been made more clear in the end-of-episode moral, although again, we might hope that Rainbow learned to back off when appropriate.

Ultimately, the issue of exactly how much responsibility and control over their own lives kids should be given as they gradually grow into adults is difficult. I've seen fairly convincing arguments that kids raised in the last 25 years or so have generally been overprotected and too micromanaged, and therefore they generally haven't been given enough chance to make their own meaningful decisions, work out problems for themselves, etc. But I can see how allowing or encouraging a 12-to-14-year-old essentially to take her life completely into her own hands, and allowing or encouraging her to do a highly dangerous stunt like this with no interference, could be seen as taking things too far. And in that case, the Washouts would be seen as villainous, and Rainbow's protective instinct would be seen as ultimately good in the end, even if she was being too controlling earlier.

[Thrond 3,263]

37 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Regarding these two points, one complicating factor that I see here, even though it's not really addressed in the episode, is that I view Scootaloo and the CMC as being developmentally equivalent to middle-schoolers or 12-to-14-year-olds. And if that's the case, then that raises some questions. Should Scootaloo, or 12-to-14-year-olds in general, be treated as fully adult? Does Scootaloo, or 12-to-14-year-olds in general, have the knowledge, life experience, and/or developmental capacity to fully consent to activities with a high risk of serious injury or death?

If the answers to these questions are "no" or "not really", then I think it's easier to see Lightning Dust and the Washouts as being substantially responsible for the situation. Lightning Dust and the Washouts goaded/pressured Scootaloo into agreeing to do a highly dangerous stunt which she's not capable of fully consenting to doing, and then Lightning Dust forced Scootaloo to do the stunt even as she feared for her safety and wanted to back out. Also, in this paradigm, the Washouts could be seen as supervisory adults taking substantial responsibility for Scootaloo's safety, since Scootaloo wouldn't be considered a full adult yet. That might be one reason why Twilight and the other four of the Mane Six seem to have little or no concern for Scootaloo's safety, and don't try to stop her from doing the stunt - they might have assumed that Scootaloo was "in good hands" (so to speak) with Lightning Dust and the Washouts. But that turned out not to be the case. The Washouts had Scootaloo do this stunt even though they hadn't tested it before, Scootaloo had apparently never practiced it, and, given the way it was set up, I don't even know how the stunt was supposed to work.

To think about it another way, in the real world, if a supervising adult goaded/pressured a 12-to-14-year-old into doing a highly dangerous stunt with no testing or practice, and that 12-to-14-year-old was subsequently seriously injured or killed, would people generally say "Well, that was the 12-to-14-year-old's decision to make, and now he/she has to deal with the consequences"? Or would people generally consider that adult substantially (if not entirely) responsible?

Also, if Scootaloo shouldn't be considered fully able to consent to a highly dangerous stunt like this, and Rainbow believes that the Washouts are not taking their responsibility for Scootaloo's safety seriously, then, from that perspective, Rainbow might have been justified in stopping Scootaloo from doing the stunt outright, even against her wishes. In that case, Rainbow would be seen as actually exercising restraint in allowing Scootaloo to attempt the stunt anyway, and being ready to rescue her before any serious harm came to pass.

I would say that Scootaloo does need to learn to take more responsibility for her own safety, and that could have been more explicitly addressed in the episode. But we might be meant to hope or assume that, after her brush with serious injury or death, Scootaloo will take her own safety more seriously going forward. And yeah, Rainbow was being too controlling of Scootaloo prior to her joining the Washouts, and that also could have been made more clear in the end-of-episode moral, although again, we might hope that Rainbow learned to back off when appropriate.

Ultimately, the issue of exactly how much responsibility and control over their own lives kids should be given as they gradually grow into adults is difficult. I've seen fairly convincing arguments that kids raised in the last 25 years or so have generally been overprotected and too micromanaged, and therefore they generally haven't been given enough chance to make their own meaningful decisions, work out problems for themselves, etc. But I can see how allowing or encouraging a 12-to-14-year-old essentially to take her life completely into her own hands, and allowing or encouraging her to do a highly dangerous stunt like this with no interference, could be seen as taking things too far. And in that case, the Washouts would be seen as villainous, and Rainbow's protective instinct would be seen as ultimately good in the end, even if she was being too controlling earlier.

I guess my complaint is that the theme of “Kids are not ready to make decisions for myself” doesn’t make for that emotionally compelling of a character arc. It takes a lot of autonomy out of Scootaloo’s hands. Maybe I would have been more moved by it if I felt the story was more streamlined, or if Lightning Dust’s motivations were a little less arbitrary.

Edited September 13, 2018 by AlexanderThrond

[gingerninja666 487]

1 hour ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I guess my complaint is that the theme of “Kids are not ready to make decisions for myself” doesn’t make for that emotionally compelling of a character arc. It takes a lot of autonomy out of Scootaloo’s hands. Maybe I would have been more moved by it if I felt the story was more streamlined, or if Lightning Dust’s motivations were a little less arbitrary.

I thought the idea was that Rainbow Dash was genuinely concerned for Scoots, but her jealousy was getting in the way and inadvertantly pushing Scoots towards the Washouts. I got the impression that if Dash was more accepting and supportive of Scoots right from the offset, then Scoots would've heeded her warnings and advice more. After the damage was done, she had no choice but to respect Scoots' decisions and be there for her if something bad happened. I definitely felt like the Washouts only let her in because she insisted in a fury. Since they turned her down in the first place. If Dash hadn't made her that angry, this wouldn't have happened

The moral isn't about whether kids are right to make their decisions, it's that a role model needs to be cognizant of the effect they have on the people who look up to them.

Edited September 13, 2018 by gingerninja666

[Thrond 3,263]

5 hours ago, gingerninja666 said:

I thought the idea was that Rainbow Dash was genuinely concerned for Scoots, but her jealousy was getting in the way and inadvertantly pushing Scoots towards the Washouts. I got the impression that if Dash was more accepting and supportive of Scoots right from the offset, then Scoots would've heeded her warnings and advice more. After the damage was done, she had no choice but to respect Scoots' decisions and be there for her if something bad happened. I definitely felt like the Washouts only let her in because she insisted in a fury. Since they turned her down in the first place. If Dash hadn't made her that angry, this wouldn't have happened

The moral isn't about whether kids are right to make their decisions, it's that a role model needs to be cognizant of the effect they have on the people who look up to them.

I can definitely see how Dash being annoying would push Scootaloo away, but it seems like there's a lot going on here. On one hand, you definitely have Scootaloo being driven to the Washouts by Dash's behaviour - that much is stated in dialogue. But Rainbow sort of flatly telling Scootaloo what she could or couldn't do, not even explaining it very well, and then seeming indignant that Scootaloo liked anyone other than her, made me think it was going for something more specific; I'm not sure this actually makes much of a point about Rainbow's jealousy, especially since her dislike of the Washouts is fully validated. 

Rainbow's the one who learns the most, but I feel like making Scootaloo the focus character would have been more satisfying. It at least might have made her seem a little less petulant. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by AlexanderThrond

[Truffles 2,033]

On 9/10/2018 at 1:16 AM, Music Chart Fan said:

When Scootaloo says the stunt that she's going to do tonight, Twilight just asks "Scootaloo, are you sure that's what you really want to do?"

I guess it could be said that was all that was needed in terms of the Mane 6 stepping in to prevent Scootaloo from being hurt, though I'm still a little skeptical. More on this topic below:

On 9/13/2018 at 3:24 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

Regarding these two points, one complicating factor that I see here, even though it's not really addressed in the episode, is that I view Scootaloo and the CMC as being developmentally equivalent to middle-schoolers or 12-to-14-year-olds. And if that's the case, then that raises some questions. Should Scootaloo, or 12-to-14-year-olds in general, be treated as fully adult? Does Scootaloo, or 12-to-14-year-olds in general, have the knowledge, life experience, and/or developmental capacity to fully consent to activities with a high risk of serious injury or death?

Part of the problem of trying to determine whether the Mane 6 were derelict in their duties of protecting a foal is from the world they live in. Unlike us, ponies live in a world with monsters and other dangerous creatures that could kill them at any time. However, there is an even more powerful opposite force that makes the danger from all these monsters irrelevant, and that's the fact that there are never any victims who suffer on-screen death in this world, despite being attacked by monsters or powerful villains. It may be that the constant sense of danger coupled with no one ever getting seriously hurt makes the characters that should be more concerned about the well-being of foals somewhat lackadaisical for their safety.

On 9/10/2018 at 1:16 AM, Music Chart Fan said:

Others have pointed out that the other CMCs are nowhere to be seen in this episode, but I also noticed that Scootaloo's parents/guardians (assuming that she's not a homeless orphan) are nowhere to be seen, either. I particularly thought of this when Scootaloo says that she "absolutely" wants to do the stunt tonight, and tells Rainbow that "there's nothing you can do to stop me!". If Rainbow really fears that Scootaloo will seriously injure or kill herself, then I would think Rainbow could go to Scootaloo's parents/guardians, who might want to know what Scootaloo is planning to do, and would have more authority than Rainbow does to stop Scootaloo from carrying through with it.

Like the CMC, you're right that Scootaloo's parents could have stepped in and put a stop to it. But let's assume they just didn't care. Even if they didn't, you bringing up that her parents are completely MIA in this episode totally floored me when I realized they didn't even bother to show up for her show! That's not just an example of derelict parenting - that's an example that her parents seem to have disdain for their own daughter - enough of it to skip her performance.

On 9/10/2018 at 1:16 AM, Music Chart Fan said:

Good catch! We never see Rolling Thunder fly through (or even near) the Crushinator Jaws of Smashalot; that was Lightning Dust. In fact, we don't see Rolling Thunder get injured at any other point during the performance, nor do we see any sign of prior injury on her leg. Was there more to the performance than what we saw, or was there some additional different performance that occurred in the time between jump cuts, maybe?

Yeah, that's why I asked the community here if I had missed something during their initial performance and that there was a hint that there was more to the show that we didn't see? If I did, then Rolling Thunder's injury makes sense. If I didn't, then someone at DHX got their signals crossed when the scene went from storyboard to animation. (Although the directions in the script should have stated who was flying through the Crushinator, but maybe the animators didn't look at that part of the script since there was no dialogue during that scene and went solely on the animatic?)

 

On 9/11/2018 at 1:38 AM, Justin_Case001 said:

It was a good premise, but...I think.....I think it just felt a little rushed, a little...obvious, a little....cliché, perhaps.

I felt like the episode as a whole was pretty predictable. You pretty much knew Rainbow would get jealous, Scootaloo would get in over her head and see the light, and Rainbow would come to the rescue. The only thing I expected (and was wrong about) was Lightning Dust would still be a sympathetic nemesis to Rainbow (if she didn't get redeemed outright), but they decided to go in the opposite direction and show she's nothing but a total villain. (And for me personally, less interesting of a character.)

[Thrond 3,263]

Second try. I understood it more this time, but I don't like watching Rainbow act so selfishly. And I still wish it gave a little more respect to stunt performers, or at least had Scootaloo branch out from her Rainbow Dash obsession. Sticking with 65/100; it's not entirely clear to me how this is an episode which does the mane six well. 

I'm still sad we're probably never getting that Lightning Dust reformation.  

Edited September 15, 2018 by AlexanderThrond

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

14 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Second try. I understood it more this time, but I don't like watching Rainbow act so selfishly. And I still wish it gave a little more respect to stunt performers, or at least had Scootaloo branch out from her Rainbow Dash obsession. Sticking with 65/100; it's not entirely clear to me how this is an episode which does the mane six well. 

I'm still sad we're probably never getting that Lightning Dust reformation.  

Two things:

1. Rainbow Dash isn't acting selfishly in this episode. She genuinely loves Scootaloo and cares for her safety, it's just that the way in which she tried to Express her concern came off as slightly selfish.

2. Why would you want Lightning Dust to have a change of heart? She works much better and is much more interesting as a foil to Rainbow Dash. 

[Thrond 3,263]

4 hours ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

1. Rainbow Dash isn't acting selfishly in this episode. She genuinely loves Scootaloo and cares for her safety, it's just that the way in which she tried to Express her concern came off as slightly selfish.

A large part of the moral depends on the notion that Rainbow wants Scootaloo to be like her and can’t accept anything else. I found that hard to sympathize with. 

4 hours ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

2. Why would you want Lightning Dust to have a change of heart? She works much better and is much more interesting as a foil to Rainbow Dash. 

Because she seemed, at least at first, to be potentially more complicated than most antagonists, and I feel it was a missed opportunity not to at least show her maturing. 

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

A large part of the moral depends on the notion that Rainbow wants Scootaloo to be like her and can’t accept anything else. I found that hard to sympathize with. 

Because she seemed, at least at first, to be potentially more complicated than most antagonists, and I feel it was a missed opportunity not to at least show her maturing. 

1. That's not true. She does genuinely care about Scootaloo's safety and her livelihood. It's akin to a parent having a child that adored them in their youth who now resents them as a rebellious teenager. I don't know how you find that selfish. If it comes off as selfish, it's because Scootaloo is basically her kryptonite. 

2. Lightning Dust isn't, and never really was an antagonist. The reason she works as a foil is because she's basically what Rainbow Dash would be if not for the guiding influence of her friends.

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

Also, she does poke fun of herself later on for being egocentric. Which is both funny, and effective at showing character growth.

[Thrond 3,263]

17 minutes ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

1. That's not true. She does genuinely care about Scootaloo's safety and her livelihood. It's akin to a parent having a child that adored them in their youth who now resents them as a rebellious teenager. I don't know how you find that selfish. If it comes off as selfish, it's because Scootaloo is basically her kryptonite. 

She holds both perspectives, and one is just more sympathetic than the other to me. The episode repeatedly states in dialogue that she’s jealous of the Washouts and feels bad when she’s not Scootaloo’s primary idol. I couldn’t relate, I guess. 

17 minutes ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

2. Lightning Dust isn't, and never really was an antagonist. The reason she works as a foil is because she's basically what Rainbow Dash would be if not for the guiding influence of her friends.

I just felt she had the potential to be more complex in a second appearance, and think she would be more interesting as a three-dimensional character than as a simple foil. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by AlexanderThrond

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

18 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Because she won’t even co aider the possibility of Scootaloo pursuing other interests. All the stuff about her jealousy of the Washouts was not interesting to me.

I don’t agree that this is the most interesting possibility for her. I’m not even saying the episide’s decision to make her resentful and thoughtless is invalid. A reformation of sorts was just something I hoped the show might have done which it didn’t. Is that so wrong? 

1. That's her mindset at the BEGINNING. When she actually sees The Washouts, she's impressed by their show and can see why Scootaloo would take interest in them. When it's revealed that Lightning Dust is the founder, that's when her skepticism becomes genuine concern for Scootaloo, however, due to her initial jealousy, Scootaloo misconstrued that concern as her being selfish.

2. Yes, it is. We already had one of Rainbow Dash's antagonists have a change of heart in the form of Gilda in "The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone", one is enough. 

Besides, it's honestly more realistic because while everyone has the potential to better themselves as people, not everyone does. Lightning Dust is just one of those people who doesn't change or grow. 

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Theanimationfanatic

[Thrond 3,263]

Just now, Theanimationfanatic said:

1. That's her mindset at the BEGINNING. When she actually sees The Washouts, she's impressed by their show and can see why Scootaloo would take interest in them. When it's revealed that Lightning Dust is the founder, that's when her skepticism becomes genuine concern for Scootaloo, however, due to her initial jealousy, Scootaloo misconstrued that concern as her being selfish.

I don't know, stuff like tearing up the Washouts poster still felt a bit to me like she was acting out of jealousy. I guess I just found her behaviour annoying here, whether it was selfish or not. 

1 minute ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

 2. Yes, it is. We already had one of Rainbow Dash's antagonists have a change of heart in the form of Gilda in "The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone", one is enough. 

 Besides, it's honestly more realistic because while everyone has the potential to better themselves as people, not everyone does. Lightning Dust is just one of those people.

I would have preferred Lightning Dust be reformed than Gilda, and I kind of enjoyed when every antagonist was being reformed in this show. That's just me, though. I'm sad because I felt like Lightning Dust being reformed had potential. Making her villainous fits this story, and it's not inconsistent with her earlier behaviour. I'd just gotten my hopes up for something this show wasn't interested in. Leave me alone. 

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

I don't know, stuff like tearing up the Washouts poster still felt a bit to me like she was acting out of jealousy. I guess I just found her behaviour annoying here, whether it was selfish or not. 

I would have preferred Lightning Dust be reformed than Gilda, and I kind of enjoyed when every antagonist was being reformed in this show. That's just me, though. I'm sad because I felt like Lightning Dust being reformed had potential. Making her villainous fits this story, and it's not inconsistent with her earlier behaviour. I'd just gotten my hopes up for something this show wasn't interested in. Leave me alone. 

1. Well, it's a cartoon, some things are going to be a little exaggerated. Plus, she chides herself for being a bit egotistical, which was a nice moment of maturity.

2. I'm sorry if I gave off the impression that I was attacking you for your opinion. That wasn't my intention. I was actually curious to hear your perspective. I respect your opinion.

 

[Thrond 3,263]

Just now, Theanimationfanatic said:

1. Well, it's a cartoon, some things are going to be a little exaggerated. Plus, she chides herself for being a bit egotistical, which was a nice moment of maturity.

As I said, I understood and respected what this episode was going for. I just found some of Rainbow's behaviour seemed insensitive and thoughtless. 

2 minutes ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

2. I'm sorry if I gave off the impression that I was attacking you for your opinion. That wasn't my intention. I was actually curious to hear your perspective. I respect your opinion.

Next time, try questions instead of counter-arguments. It sounded very much like you had a problem with me wanting Lightning Dust to reform.