Being More Critical of Later Seasons

[PacificGreen 1,163]

Have you ever thought about how critical you are of certain episodes in the show, especially with regards to how far into the show an episode is? If so, what is your opinion on being more harsh on later seasons than earlier ones, and do you think it's a fair way to judge an episode?

Personally, I gave the earlier seasons a lot more leeway (especially 1 through 4), especially since I had just started watching and my expectations weren't that high. I think during the first 2 to 3 seasons, the show was still trying to "find its place" so to speak- testing the waters with what kinds of stories were good, and which ones weren't; if there was an episode that had some flaws, I was generally able to brush it off and say "eh, it's pony, whatever".

Around the time seasons 7 and 8 rolled around, I think I started finding more episodes I either actively disliked, or just didn't care much for. I think it's to be expected to some extent- as the seasons unfold, so too do the characters develop, and you kinda expect more from them as time goes on to be more grown characters. If they just keep relearning the same lessons or pulling similar gags over and over, it gets kinda old. Something Pinkie may have done in Season 1, for example, may have gotten a laugh out of me when I started watching that first season, but if she were to do it again in Season 8 or 9, it might come across more as annoying.

Another factor is the side characters. During the first few seasons, the focus of the show was primarily on the main characters and how they either interacted with each other, or responded to how side characters acted (think Pinkie Pie and Gilda in Griffon the Brush Off). As time went on, the side characters played a more active role, like the map episodes, where the Mane Six were more helpers than the actual stars of the episode, so I think the show kind of set a precedent for itself with regards to how the side characters are treated. I think if an episode like, say, Fluttershy Leans In, (which did great on Fluttershy's characterization but IMO handled the three "experts" pretty poorly) had aired in Season 1 or 2, I may have enjoyed it a tad bit more.

But I'm interested in what your thoughts are.

[Kadeda 178]

The show has proven itself to be extremely good so it's easy to be critical of it's weaker episodes. I am actually one of the few people that doesn't think it has bad episodes... just, there are episodes i like more than others. Dialog is way better in the later seasons. They honestly feel like real people.

[MangoFoalix 25,038]

How critical I AM of the later seasons of the show? I think you meant to word that differently but whatever. I'm personally not too critical of the later seasons of the show. I find them to be as enjoyable or more so than the earlier seasons of the show.

[Them's Seeing Ponies 282]

The reason I tend to judge the earlier (S1-2 chiefly) seasons with greater generosity is because of their tonal difference from the later seasons; whilst seasons 5-8 in particular exert more focus onto executing ambitious morals and themes, the earlier seasons are more consistently successful/reach milder lows due to the complexity they add to simpler plots (one of the show's most overlooked early strengths in recent years). Similarly, the charming intangibles and fun, quirky humour (almost to the point of feeling similar to a lighthearted parody of a kids' TV show whilst not turning the self-referential gags up to an overbearing degree as would become more prevalent around season 5 and later) additionally tend to absolve many of the structural flaws of Faust-era episodes (allowing me to at least garner some enjoyment from otherwise heavily flawed episodes), whilst the later seasons are often extremely hinged on their morals/themes, which creates a less forgiving situation if they blunder (I seem to be in the minority by believing that the show still does this with at least as great a frequency as S1-2 in its more recent incarnations). 

[Ganondorf8 11,389]

I tend to be more critical of the earlier seasons though the later seasons aren't innocent either in this regard. The later seasons have improved animation--though still prone to animation errors--better voice acting, more complicated storylines--these can contradict earlier stories--and better special effects.

[Thrond 3,263]

I think that, on paper, the seasons I'm most critical of don't follow any particular pattern, aside from the likely coincidence that I mostly prefer the even-numbered seasons. In general, though, I find that I enjoy the show less from season 5 onward, mostly because there seems to be a shift in focus away from the things I liked about the show. @Them's Seeing Ponies brings up a lot of the points I would say, but I also tend to feel that the show sometimes seems overly ambitious in its themes since season 5 or so, to the point that I regularly start to wish I was watching something else which handled those themes better. This show has been great at a lot of things, but I really do think it's best at mining surprising depth from otherwise simple stories, and there's just been less of that for the past four years. Also, I just prefer the humour style of the first four seasons. I've found on my latest viewing that seasons 1 and 2 were hardly perfect, and had their own moments of odd character behaviour, but season 5 shifted towards the mane six inspiring other ponies, which I didn't like much, and since season 6 the characters have felt increasingly inconsistent and often oversimplified. These past two seasons especially, the show has started to feel kinda didactic. 

[Them's Seeing Ponies 282]

I tend to agree that seasons 7 and 8 feel more morally-driven than their predecessors, particularly 7, which explains my lack of fondness for it compared to other bronies. They're certainly worth noting for their ambitious themes, but they often seem to blunder in executing them to their full potential (the premise of "Rockhoof and a Hard Place" was promising, but a ton of the second act felt very repetitious (as if the episode was unsure of where to take this relatively unique/compelling narrative concept) despite the show throwing in interesting smaller details in an attempt to distract the audience from this). 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Them's Seeing Ponies

[Goat-kun 2,530]

People who like to eat hamburgers will become more selective and critical of hamburgers. Whoopty-doo!

 

 

 

I just can't stand how they constantly swing back and forth between some flaccid wish to have fantasy adventure and the unfunny hipster non-humor of "lol, nothing matters!" while still trying their darnest to force badly conveyed morals up everyone's arse. Look, you either go Konosuba route and make a comedy show placed in fantasy setting, or you make a more traditional fantasy adventure with humor. FIM tries to be both and succeeds at being neither. When you go comedy, you have to commit and place morals on secondary track cause comedy burns assess. And when you go adventure, you do not turn Tartarus into a petting zoo, villains into misunderstood idiots, or have just about every world event connected to ponies. The crowd you're trying to entertain is the same crowd that plays games with way more logical and complicated worldbuilding.

 

 

We are facing the end of FIM. We have experienced it all. We have all the tools to support our criticism, something that we did not have at its beginning. Benefit of the doubt has been slain and buried.

 

 

And it does not help that our glorious writers are masking their utter inability to further develop Mane 6 with all these new character introductions.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Goat-kun
The cycle of life can be cruel.

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,597]

I'm of the opinion that the later seasons are better than the earlier seasons. I think it's fair to be forgiving of early seasons, since the writers are usually trying to find their footing and figure out what works. The later seasons warrant more scrutiny since the writers should have a good feel for what works, what doesn't work, and what the show is about.

That being said, I've noticed that some people tend to dismiss or unfairly scrutinize the later seasons because they're different from Season 1, or because Lauren Faust no longer works on the series.

[Here No Longer 5,277]

I'm starting to think it's possible I might be, but yet again I'm very critical of season 3, so I'm probably really not. 

[RDDash 19,206]

Well, you could say that the show burned itself out. There were times that you could say that the show was genuinely been better. The writers cared about more about adventure and you had smart purple ocasiinally evolve and go with her life, and you had the other five and they ocasiinally did evolve too.

I think Best Gift Ever was homage to the past episodes, and then there are other episodes where the characters would go OOC like if it's someone bad fanfic.

There is a map, yeah it occasionally works and sends ponies on adventures as it suppose to but it also can be hacked by the Discord so what does it matter in the first place.

Twilight wants to open the school and normally that would not be such a big deal and otherwise would have been an interesting story arc but it just feels like she is spreading herself too thin because everypony even the Chancellor Education expects her to be the main strike force, so it really is Hasbro attempt at merchandising rather then good storytelling.

Edited November 10, 2018 by R.D.Dash

[Here No Longer 5,277]

6 minutes ago, R.D.Dash said:

then there are other episodes where the characters would go OOC like if it's someone bad fanfic.

*cough cough* Hard to Say Anything *cough cough*

[PacificGreen 1,163]

3 hours ago, Theanimationfanatic said:

I'm of the opinion that the later seasons are better than the earlier seasons. I think it's fair to be forgiving of early seasons, since the writers are usually trying to find their footing and figure out what works. The later seasons warrant more scrutiny since the writers should have a good feel for what works, what doesn't work, and what the show is about.

That being said, I've noticed that some people tend to dismiss or unfairly scrutinize the later seasons because they're different from Season 1, or because Lauren Faust no longer works on the series.

Yeah, that last part is pretty ridiculous IMO.

My opinion is that seasons 4 and 5 were probably the high points of the series. The first few seasons you can tell were them trying to, as you mention, find their footing- the dialogue felt a bit more juvenile (though that's also probably because the episodes were more slice-of-life and episodic), and the lessons were pretty basic ones you'd find in your typical kids' show (e.g. don't judge a book by its cover, share your feelings with your friends, appreciate each other's differences). The later seasons seemed to keep up most of the same tone of seasons 4-5 and add a bit more depth to their lessons, and for the most part have maintained the quality of the show, but I do feel like the mane six are kind of running their course and it would be better to shift the spotlight to other characters, as it seems they've been doing with Starlight, Trixie, the school students and the Pillars. Either that or it's the new show writers (I'd really hate to point fingers here, but it's definitely a possibility).

This is also probably just me, but the later seasons also seem to be a bit more ham-fisted with their message and their execution, with episodes like School Daze, Fluttershy Leans In, and Fame and Misfortune.

2 hours ago, R.D.Dash said:

There is a map, yeah it occasionally works and sends ponies on adventures as it suppose to but it also can be hacked by the Discord so what does it matter in the first place.

Twilight wants to open the school and normally that would not be such a big deal and otherwise would have been an interesting story arc but it just feels like she is spreading herself too thin because everypony even the Chancellor Education expects her to be the main strike force, so it really is Hasbro attempt at merchandising rather then good storytelling.

Kind of an aside, but I personally actually think the map episodes are some of the best of the series. Aside from getting really cool new characters (the Las Pegasus Ponies, Saffron and Coriander, the Kirin, and Vapor and Sky), the Mane Six fill in the role of teachers. Sure, the way they're summoned (the all-knowing Cutie Map just "calls them") is pretty contrived and often feels forced, but usually the mane characters end up as something like guidance counselors, where, even though they mess up, they use their strengths to help push others in the right direction towards solving their problems. I like that about these episodes.

Discord's kinda an oddball. I feel like there's a lot he could do to mess with the ponies, but just doesn't, because he's just that capricious. It was pretty interesting to see that play out in A Matter of Principals, which actually makes me think he might be more powerful than the Tree of Harmony if he's able to tamper with the Cutie Map.

The school itself...is hard to describe. My opinion is that, in theory, it's a great idea and a natural progression of Twilight's role as Princess of Friendship, but in practice you just end up with something that should be way harder to deal with than the show makes it out to be. I was actually about to applaud the Season 8 premiere for introducing a sort of "checks-and-balances" where Twilight would have to deal with the intricacies of starting a school while also keeping with government laws, but in the end Neighsay's a racist and apparently the EEA are bad at actually making schools effective places to learn so their objections are pretty much invalidated (and it's treated as a good thing). But at least everything works out in the finale so...yay?  

Edited November 10, 2018 by PacificGreen

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,597]

In fairness, this is a show about pastel colored ponies who use the literal power of friendship to save the world. Ham-fisted is a bit of a relative term.

[gingerninja666 487]

17 minutes ago, PacificGreen said:

The school itself...is hard to describe. My opinion is that, in theory, it's a great idea and a natural progression of Twilight's role as Princess of Friendship, but in practice you just end up with something that should be way harder to deal with than the show makes it out to be. I was actually about to applaud the Season 8 premiere for introducing a sort of "checks-and-balances" where Twilight would have to deal with the intricacies of starting a school while also keeping with government laws, but in the end Neighsay's a racist and apparently the EEA are bad at actually making schools effective places to learn so their objections are pretty much invalidated (and it's treated as a good thing). But at least everything works out in the finale so...yay?  

Small thing, I feel like people miss why the EEA are the bad guys in School Daze. The EEA are not "bad at making schools effective places to learn". They're bad at making a FRIENDSHIP school. Which is what Twilight is trying to create. It's the first of its kind. Twilight does not go to existing EEA establishments and call them bad. In fact, in Marks for Effort, Twilight tells the CMC that they need Cheerilee's classes, not her own. The EEA are GOOD. But Twi's goal isn't within their wheelhouse.

[PacificGreen 1,163]

12 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

Small thing, I feel like people miss why the EEA are the bad guys in School Daze. The EEA are not "bad at making schools effective places to learn". They're bad at making a FRIENDSHIP school. Which is what Twilight is trying to create. It's the first of its kind. Twilight does not go to existing EEA establishments and call them bad. In fact, in Marks for Effort, Twilight tells the CMC that they need Cheerilee's classes, not her own. The EEA are GOOD. But Twi's goal isn't within their wheelhouse.

Fair enough. What's weird though is that later in the series we basically see them running the friendship school like any other school, with tests, lectures, and homework, which make me think Twilight's rulebook shouldn't be all that different from the EEA's. 

I do think that aspect of the message was muddled up a bit with the racism aspect. Essentially, it felt like the episode was trying to give two different messages, but wasn't sure how the villain (Neighsay) was supposed to be perceived (a well-meaning bureaucrat or a despicable bigot). 

[n1029 229]

I think the show falters now about as often as it did in early seasons, but I feel like it's a rarity for a kids cartoon to become more ambitious as it goes along, so I appreciate that it usually stumbles now because of that as opposed to just fading out as another dull cartoon that no one cares enough about to get angry at. I haven't followed any cartoon this long until this series, which I think is a testament in itself to the efforts to keep it fresh even if they don't always stick the landing.

[gingerninja666 487]

6 hours ago, PacificGreen said:

Fair enough. What's weird though is that later in the series we basically see them running the friendship school like any other school, with tests, lectures, and homework, which make me think Twilight's rulebook shouldn't be all that different from the EEA's. 

I do think that aspect of the message was muddled up a bit with the racism aspect. Essentially, it felt like the episode was trying to give two different messages, but wasn't sure how the villain (Neighsay) was supposed to be perceived (a well-meaning bureaucrat or a despicable bigot). 

Only Twilight seemed to be putting on tests and lectures and stuff. Everytime we see another mane cast member doing a class, it's something more unique and tailored to them. Which makes sense. Twilight is THAT kind of teacher, and it's what she's best at. So she'll teach in that way. She lets her friends teach in a way that suits them.

Which is another point that people like to bring up. That the mane cast aren't "qualified" to be teachers. Which, the EEA are able to give out qualifications for a CERTAIN STYLE of teaching. And that style the Cast are fully willing to admit they can't do. What they CAN do is teach in another style.

[PacificGreen 1,163]

9 hours ago, gingerninja666 said:

Which is another point that people like to bring up. That the mane cast aren't "qualified" to be teachers. Which, the EEA are able to give out qualifications for a CERTAIN STYLE of teaching. And that style the Cast are fully willing to admit they can't do. What they CAN do is teach in another style.

Honestly, it almost makes the school feel more like a day camp...Which, if you think about it, it essentially is. I feel like if they'd called it a "camp" from the start, the whole situation could have been avoided.

But it also means that Celestia, not the EEA, was probably wrong to tell Twilight that she needed to get EEA approval here, since, as you mentioned, the friendship school wouldn't have needed their approval in the first place.

[Sepul-Coloratura 762]

Later seasons are more likely to be critiqued because of the chances of failing on it's own standards. They can simply became a worse show (writing,directing), have continuity errors ("Pinkie Pie would never do that!"), or totally changing what the whole show is about. Those critiques are all valid if done fairly. And MLP applies to all of it.

Later seasons of MLP are not as well made as earlier seasons, the writers often forget what the main characters went through and eventually have less deep understandings of the character than certain fans, and they focus more on 'world building', 'continuity', 'epic battles', 'character's past/family members' rather than what the mane six has to face every day and how they manage personal conflict through a right choice and eventually learns a friendship lesson.

When something goes long enough, it's more likely to be worse than better. For example, The Terminator series, Metallica albums, The Simpsons, Diablo franchise etc. (I can go on forever.) The examples that can prove against it are rare. Simply being constantly good requires a huge amount of effort, let alone being better and better. and even then people usually gets bored of it eventually. MLP FiM is almost 8 years old. I am a fan of the show, I will keep critiquing based on certain standards, but I sadly doubt that season 9 will be great because it will require more effort + recognition of what they are doing wrong. It seems like they are happy with the result so far and they will play it safe. Long franchises relies on their past successes and establishments. But a good work should speak by itself and deliver a self-contained content.

But my critiques are mostly because of the bad writing and directing, pacing etc.

[Vlazamal 338]

I am fairly uncritical of this show - And to be frank I actually love the newer seasons 6-8 more than the 1-3 era when we're talking about the show. The animation is better, the morals and plot are often easier to digest for me as well. 

 

Equestria Girls on the other hand is the exception - Its gotten worse over time for me, excluding Forgotten Friendship, my favorite of the series. 

[SBaby 660]

It's a show featuring magical talking ponies that solve problems with the power of friendship.  With that kind of premise, you can see that it absolutely requires serious analysis and criticism.

[Misty Shadow 7,956]

When I first started watching the show, I was kind of the same way, not really looking at the episodes through a huge critical scope because of my low expectations. When the Season 3 premiere rolled around though, and I found myself not enjoying it and a few other episodes that season as much as I usually did, I started wanting to observe the episodes more during a rewatch to find out exactly why I wasn't enjoying them as much. After I enjoyed all of them more by watching them with a more objective and open mind, I even went back to do the same thing to a few Season 2 episodes, and it worked the same way for me there too. And when the same thing even worked for me watching Season 4, that's when I really made up my mind that I was never going to judge episodes based on my initial subjective reaction anymore. Nowadays, regardless of what season any episode is in, I always look at its accomplishments and shortcomings as objectively as I can before I review that episode. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by CloudMistDragon

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

After season 5 premiere, my expectations for a mlp episode are really high.

[Midnight Solace 5,132]

I guess as the show continues, we expect it improve on it's mistakes.

I mean, I'm happy there are less animation errors.