Positive depiction of masculinity in MLP?

[Sepul-Coloratura 756]

I know this topic can easily turn into a mess, but I think modern day isn't quite differentiating masculinity with tyranny and not connecting it with competence.

Usually, how masculinity depicted in MLP is through ignorance, bullying, tyranny, or as a ridicule. And most positive male characters has more of a feminine aspects than masculine aspects. Or they dialed down their masculinity. Not that I have a problem with it. I am curious if the show can pull it off.

Only positive male characters having distinctive male traits I can think of are Torch and Rockhoof. And even Rockhoof struggled by how his strength can backfire in a different setting, Torch is little stubborn, only redeemed by acknowledging his fault.

Are there any examples of showing that a male being like (traditionally) a male is a positive thing in MLP? (like how Rarity is being -sometimes almost ridiculously- feminine and it's depicted as a positive thing)

[imawesome 449]

Well, I would point to Big Mac. 

He shows constantly that he is wise, polite, and friendly, while still holding his masculine qualities. 

Is Big Mac completely masculine? No, but I don't believe that FiM wants too many characters that either land right in the "feminine" or "masculine" section. They want a mix, and I think they achieved that well.

[EpicEnergy 22,076]

10 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Usually, how masculinity depicted in MLP is through ignorance, bullying, tyranny, or as a ridicule. And most positive male characters has more of a feminine aspects than masculine aspects. Or they dialed down their masculinity. Not that I have a problem with it. I am curious if the show can pull it off.

Only positive male characters having distinctive male traits I can think of are Torch and Rockhoof. And even Rockhoof struggled by how his strength can backfire in a different setting, Torch is little stubborn, only redeemed by acknowledging his fault.

Sure, masculine traits have their downsides depicted in MLP, but so does many feminine traits and traits that are both masculine and feminine.

If you are referring to Discord and Flim and Flam when you said "tyranny" and "bullying", Discord is the spirit of chaos and disharmony and Flim and Flam are business ponies who only care about money. They don't solely depict masculinity in FiM as they also depict other things. Also, Rockhoof's strength is depicted as both useful and harmful. As for Torch, there are also female characters who are stubborn (Spoiled Rich), so it's not a masculine only trait.

10 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Are there any examples of showing that a male being like (traditionally) a male is a positive thing in MLP?

 Since you wanted some examples of males with traditional traits, Shining Armor, Big Mac (as @imawesome mentioned), reformed Pharynx, Bright Mac, Twilight's dad, and Rainbow Dash's dad are excellent examples and they represent masculine traits in a positive way.

Edited January 6, 2019 by EpicEnergy
Needed Revision

[Will Guide 21,325]

@Sepul-Coloratura

6 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

And most positive male characters has more of a feminine aspects than masculine aspects.

Being a sensitive male guy like Thorax does NOT equal weak. In fact, Males who can show their sensitive side can be considered manly and brave enough not to let others tell them what they can and cannot do to "be a man".

There's a trope that comes from that, among others. It's called, "Real Men Wear Pink" Basically even the Manliest Man can have a feminine hobby/interest and still be badass!

[Goat-kun 2,498]

37 minutes ago, Will Guide said:

@Sepul-Coloratura

Being a sensitive male guy like Thorax does NOT equal weak. In fact, Males who can show their sensitive side can be considered manly and brave enough not to let others tell them what they can and cannot do to "be a man".

There's a trope that comes from that, among others. It's called, "Real Men Wear Pink" Basically even the Manliest Man can have a feminine hobby/interest and still be badass!

From Batman to Guts to ancient Greek heroes, many very masculine heroes can show weakness, as you've implied. It's just that you're being big brain by sneakily pushing a soy boy narrative in order to deconstruct male heroes. It's not about crying or showing compassion or having weird hobbies, it's about displaying traditional male traits, both physical and behavioral. In other less nebulous terms: even if Thorax is to become a father, he's not becoming a father figure. To be a man, a father figure, is to be a defender and provider. Thorax is none of that. He's 99% soy.

 

P.S: Power per se does not equal masculinity. A kaiju is super powerful. It's also very badass. That does not make it a masculine character.

[Will Guide 21,325]

9 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

In other less nebulous terms: even if Thorax is to become a father, he's not becoming a father figure. To be a man, a father figure, is to be a defender and provider. Thorax is none of that. He's 99% soy.

Dude, that's insulting to Thorax! And on Huggo de Buggo Day, too. Show some respect to the Changeling that changed his people for the better!

Edited January 6, 2019 by Will Guide

[EpicEnergy 22,076]

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

even if Thorax is to become a father, he's not becoming a father figure. To be a man, a father figure, is to be a defender and provider. Thorax is none of that. He's 99% soy.

What about when Thorax decided to save Spike from a deadly fall off a cliff even though Thorax didn't even know Spike and was his enemy? What about when Thorax defended Spike from Ember? And when Thorax went out to help his brother Pharynx fight the moleworth with only Starlight and Trixie as backup? Thorax isn't even a pacifist judging by his actions, he is only highly reluctant to start any needless conflict, but he is more than willing to defend his friends and family. He is capable of defending and providing, he just only does it when necessary which is what a father should do anyways.

[Will Guide 21,325]

40 minutes ago, EpicEnergy said:

What about when Thorax decided to save Spike from a deadly fall off a cliff even though Thorax didn't even know Spike and was his enemy? What about when Thorax defended Spike from Ember? And when Thorax went out to help his brother Pharynx fight the moleworth with only Starlight and Trixie as backup? Thorax isn't even a pacifist judging by his actions, he is only highly reluctant to start any needless conflict, but he is more than willing to defend his friends and family. He is capable of defending and providing, he just only does it when necessary which is what a father should do anyways.

You're absolutely right there, friend. Everything you said about Thorax are several reasons why Thorax made Changelings my favorite non-pony race. In my opinion, Thorax is and always has been a positive depiction of masculinity in MLP.

The scene where Thorax and Ember talk to each other and give some advice to make the other a better leader is my favorite.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Will Guide

[Goat-kun 2,498]

3 hours ago, EpicEnergy said:

What about when Thorax decided to save Spike from a deadly fall off a cliff even though Thorax didn't even know Spike and was his enemy? What about when Thorax defended Spike from Ember? And when Thorax went out to help his brother Pharynx fight the moleworth with only Starlight and Trixie as backup? Thorax isn't even a pacifist judging by his actions, he is only highly reluctant to start any needless conflict, but he is more than willing to defend his friends and family. He is capable of defending and providing, he just only does it when necessary which is what a father should do anyways.

What if Thorax was a female in those situations? Would it be any different? Nope. Everyone went out to help Pharynx in the end but it was Pharynx who took initiative. He wanted to protect the hive more than anyone. Now there's a proper male. Being capable of defending and providing isn't masculinity. The character's overwhelming drive to do it is. It's not about the situation. It's not about doing what's necessary. It's about what a character wants to do.

6 hours ago, Will Guide said:

Dude, that's insulting to Thorax! And on Huggo de Buggo Day, too. Show some respect to the Changeling that changed his people for the better!

I shall do no such thing. Respect is earned! Guys like Thorax are aplenty. Cut one down and ten more will rise to take the changeling throne. It only takes a beginner's knowledge of love and friendship after all. Rest in soy sweet princessling.

[EpicEnergy 22,076]

17 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

What if Thorax was a female in those situations? Would it be any different? Nope. Everyone went out to help Pharynx in the end but it was Pharynx who took initiative. He wanted to protect the hive more than anyone. Now there's a proper male. Being capable of defending and providing isn't masculinity. The character's overwhelming drive to do it is. It's not about the situation. It's not about doing what's necessary. It's about what a character wants to do.

I wasn't referring to masculinity though, I was just referring to Thorax being capable of defending and providing as a father since I thought you said he wasn't, but perhaps I might have misunderstood your original post.

Edited January 7, 2019 by EpicEnergy

[Crimson storm 1,826]

Well, we’re forgetting Pharynx who was all “gun ho” on the “old ways”  on how the hoard was supposed, to act but after he showed that, he still loved the hive, He accepted  his new form,  but in my book reason that he didn’t want to transform, was because he would look weak to his brothers and sisters.

[Goat-kun 2,498]

12 hours ago, EpicEnergy said:

I wasn't referring to masculinity though, I was just referring to Thorax being capable of defending and providing as a father since I thought you said he wasn't, but perhaps I might have misunderstood your original post.

An eldritch monstrosity could play a role of such a parental figure if you gave it a manual, but it could never feel the imperative to be one. Again, it's about what you are driven to do, not what you are capable of doing. I do doubt that Thorax could play such a role without FIM's special plot armor, and he is not driven to do so. Pharynx is. And no, this is not the same as: "Huh, there's a giant monster over there threatening my friends. I better do something about it." That line of reasoning has nothing to do with gender. Masculinity is more of "I want to protect that smile" mentality that never goes away.

 

Being manly is not being a powerful cuck that can do whatever due to plot. Subaru from Re:Zero is more of a man than Thorax and he's almost completely powerless. Now that we're going that route I should state that I've severely simplified the concept of masculinity for the sake of our conversation. It's better this way since we won't be getting some global socialist trying to insert their terms without first debunking mine. We can go from protecting and providing to how that would show in a male's everyday behavior. Such an individual would be more aggressive, more inclined to risk injury for the sake of success. Nature made us so. Thorax does not display such patterns.

[Sepul-Coloratura 756]

@imawesome @EpicEnergy @Will Guide

Most of you actually didn't say something wrong, but my question is not answered yet.

It's like I asked why there are no good tasting hot coffee in the store and you keep saying iced coffee can be good. Of course I know it can be good. But my question is can you make a good tasting coffee which is hot, and the high temperature attributes to it's quality in a good way? No warm coffee, no room-temperature coffee, not because it smells good, not because the coffee beans are good, not because the right amount of sugar, hot coffee. Not that I have a problem with other ones.

I know sometimes it can be not so constructive to overly obsessed by certain specific things. (I hate it when someone rants about female superheroes or black superheroes) But I'm just curious if the show is able to pull it off. We already have both Rarity and Rainbow Dash. But we don't have those kind of dynamics on the feminine/masculine scale which are depicted in male characters of the show YET. I don't care if they never do it. MLP is clearly a girls show and I like it that way. I don't like being obsessed by something over the story itself. I'm just curious if the show is capable of finding a way to praise a male being masculine as much as a female being feminine.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Sepul-Coloratura

[imawesome 449]

@Sepul-Coloratura I did answer your question: Big Mac. 

• He participates in Guys Night with Spike and Discord.
• He has a very masculine build. 
• He shows very masculine traits in "Brotherhooves Social". 
• He has a very deep voice. 
• He presents a very "big brother" look to Apple Bloom.
• He is dependable and strong. 

He is constantly viewed in a good light in the show. 

If that doesn't satisfy you then what about Discord? (No pun intended). He's chaotic, and only presents a girly demeanor around Fluttershy. He'd be my third bet, next to Big Mac and Shining Armor. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by imawesome

[Sepul-Coloratura 756]

On 1/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, imawesome said:

@Sepul-Coloratura I did answer your question: Big Mac. 

• He participates in Guys Night with Spike and Discord.
• He has a very masculine build. 
• He shows very masculine traits in "Brotherhooves Social". 
• He has a very deep voice. 
• He presents a very "big brother" look to Apple Bloom.
• He is dependable and strong. 

He is constantly viewed in a good light in the show. 

If that doesn't satisfy you then what about Discord? (No pun intended). He's chaotic, and only presents a girly demeanor around Fluttershy. He'd be my third bet, next to Big Mac and Shining Armor. 

You have a point. But Big Mac is shy as hell. Most male characters in MLP aren't even close to being like Rainbow Dash or Applejack. I meant by masculinity not only by physical. But he maybe the most dependable and strong male character in the show. (But I don't know what participating in guy's night has to do with any of this.)

[TBD 17,228]

Forget colt are either too masculine or not, just as long their personality isn't too blend. Which  was the problem with the male characters in the first few seasons. They're improving though. 

[imawesome 449]

12 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

You have a point. But Big Mac is shy as hell. Most male characters in MLP aren't even close to being like Rainbow Dash or Applejack. I meant by masculinity not only by physical. But he maybe the most dependable and strong male character in the show. (But I don't know what participating in guy's night has to do with any of this.)

Well, I don't know if you read the books/comics, but there are some good comic/book exclusive masculine characters in them. 

Also, as to Big Mac's shy demeanor, that was not always the case, as shown in "Where the Apple Lies". 

Edited January 10, 2019 by imawesome