Do You Think Starlight Glimmer is a Good Pony?

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

10 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

We don't know exactly what kind of a spell she cast. But judging by how it's depicted and how she emotionally reacted, it was more of a brutal violence. (terrain being destroyd, Dragonball-style death scene) But more importantly, it actually doesn't matter if it was a banishing spell or a death beam.  Because those two things are caused by the same intention and resulted the same. (killing or banisging - what's the difference? She clearly seemed to not care if she actually kills him at that moment) Her reaction was rage.  And her action was by force. (and of course Discord was being bad but that's not the point when it comes to finding out if Starlight is being bad) (plus, there are actually those kind of kids like discord in real life and it's not a proper reaction to teach kids how to behave) (but I still think Discord should have pologized. not a good episode imo)

She explicitly states it was a banishment spell. And yes, there is a difference between killing and banishing. Banishing would just kick him off of the school grounds, killing would mean he's dead. It's like the difference between banning somebody from school property in real life versus shooting them. Banishing and killing might be both hostile intentions, but they are not the same at all, that's ridiculous.

10 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Infecting Ponyville residents: like I said, what they actually do is more important than intentions and what they say. Twilight kinda did this in Lesson Zeo, and instantly scolded by Celestia. And when it comes to intentions, both didn't have a moral intentions either. 

The situation with Twilight in Lesson Zero and Starlight in All Bottled up are absolutely different. Twilight purposely enchanted the Smarty Pants doll to make ponies fall in love with it. She might not have intended for things to go the way they did, but she still did that action on purpose. Starlight never intended for the bottle to affect anypony else, in fact she was using the bottle in an attempt to keep her anger in check to not freak out on Trixie. The bottle only ended up breaking and affecting others because of Trixie trying to take the bag away, actually. Not the same situation at all.

 

10 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Turning herself and Sunburst into foals shows exactly how she is messed up inside and where she comes from, it is selfishness rather than having considerations for her friend. (All Bottled Up was selfish too. Being afraid to feel angry isn't being kind.)

She was distraught and worrying she didn't have anything in common with her best friend anymore. She was trying to find a way for them to relate and have fun together again and she went way overboard trying to do that. It shows that yeah, she's still messed up a bit, but nopony even really got hurt by this incident and comparing it to the others is kind of silly, at worst Sunburst was kind of uncomfortable.

10 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

eople or characters reveal their true nature under stress and at crisis under desperate situations.

I have no clue whatsoever if she is a different pony now. No results yet.

(but I don't hate her, just hope she becomes a better person)

I have a big issue with this idea of "People revealing their true nature under stress". Are you trying to say the only way to be a good person is to be good by nature? I can't really agree with that, and I think that would discount a lot of people's efforts to genuinely be better. Some people have issues with themselves they're going to struggle with for the rest of their life, especially a lot of people with things like mental illness. What if somebody has anger issues that won't go away, that they'll have to deal with for the rest of their life? Are they still a bad person no matter what, simply because they aren't "Good" by nature? If they still resort to anger at times when under great stress? Even if they try their best to control it, and make up for the wrong things they do when they slip up?

 I'd argue Starlight has changed, and is a better person because she's putting the effort in to be one. She tries to control herself, her efforts might be misguided at times, like with the bottle incident, but that was clearly an attempt to keep her anger in check, one she hasn't repeated since. While she banished Discord when under great stress, she fixed that mistake by apologizing and offering him the chance to help out the second time. Yes, she can still be selfish, yes, she can still be impulsive, but she tries not to be, and she tries to make up for it when she screws up. That's all a good person really can do in the end, try their best, make up for their mistakes, and learn their lessons as best as possible, even if they have to be learned multiple times.

[Goat-kun 2,500]

51 minutes ago, BasementSparkle said:

I have a big issue with this idea of "People revealing their true nature under stress". Are you trying to say the only way to be a good person is to be good by nature? I can't really agree with that, and I think that would discount a lot of people's efforts to genuinely be better. Some people have issues with themselves they're going to struggle with for the rest of their life, especially a lot of people with things like mental illness. What if somebody has anger issues that won't go away, that they'll have to deal with for the rest of their life? Are they still a bad person no matter what, simply because they aren't "Good" by nature? If they still resort to anger at times when under great stress? Even if they try their best to control it, and make up for the wrong things they do when they slip up?

 I'd argue Starlight has changed, and is a better person because she's putting the effort in to be one. She tries to control herself, her efforts might be misguided at times, like with the bottle incident, but that was clearly an attempt to keep her anger in check, one she hasn't repeated since. While she banished Discord when under great stress, she fixed that mistake by apologizing and offering him the chance to help out the second time. Yes, she can still be selfish, yes, she can still be impulsive, but she tries not to be, and she tries to make up for it when she screws up. That's all a good person really can do in the end, try their best, make up for their mistakes, and learn their lessons as best as possible, even if they have to be learned multiple times.

True nature is just putting in more poetically. Stress can reveal a hidden part of your nature.

 

Anyhow, Starlight is a normie. Well, she's lower than a normie given what kind of ordinary events can make her go off the deep end. She has a bit of them special needs. And she's oh so powerful. Intent does matter, but with great power also comes great responsibility. Intent matters little when you're nuking the wrong target. Are powerless normies with such attitude towards life bad people? Depends on who you ask. Are powerful normies with such attitude bad people? Definitely. Powerful magic ... you know how it goes.

 

If this was isekai, Trixie, Starlight, and Luna would be Spear, Sword, and Bow Heroes respectively. Would they cause a lot of pain for the ordinary folk? Would they get rekt? Yes and yes. After all, FIM does not have a Shield Hero

 

Note that we are not talking about good or bad characters. If you all want to have your butts toasted again you shout totally reopen such a thread. I'm gonna go full Diversity & Ponies 

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

5 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

She was distraught and worrying she didn't have anything in common with her best friend anymore. She was trying to find a way for them to relate and have fun together again and she went way overboard trying to do that. It shows that yeah, she's still messed up a bit, but nopony even really got hurt by this incident and comparing it to the others is kind of silly, at worst Sunburst was kind of uncomfortable.

I’ve never understood the arguments surrounding this example. She gave Sunburst the spell to read, he expressed interest in it, and the moment he made it clear he wasn’t comfortable, she undid the spell. At no point did she cross any lines or boundaries.

In fact, considering it’s Sunburst, I don’t know how he didn’t know what the spell would do after reading it. Maybe he couldn’t understand it because if Starlight’s horrible horn writing but acted like he could anyways?

[Sepul-Coloratura 756]

3 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

She explicitly states it was a banishment spell. And yes, there is a difference between killing and banishing. Banishing would just kick him off of the school grounds, killing would mean he's dead. It's like the difference between banning somebody from school property in real life versus shooting them. Banishing and killing might be both hostile intentions, but they are not the same at all, that's ridiculous.

14 hours ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Maybe banishment by death. For a being that is transcend death, both would be equal, but still, that doesn't matter because she was really pissed off. I wouldn't deny Discord was being totally annoying and I would do that spell too. Doesn't mean that that's what a good person would do.

Starlight seemed to do so not just because of trying to protect the students, but mostly because of being triggered by the phrase 'Twilight decided to put an Incompetent power hungry unicorn in charge of the school' (which is annoying but quite true).

3 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

The situation with Twilight in Lesson Zero and Starlight in All Bottled up are absolutely different. Twilight purposely enchanted the Smarty Pants doll to make ponies fall in love with it. She might not have intended for things to go the way they did, but she still did that action on purpose. Starlight never intended for the bottle to affect anypony else, in fact she was using the bottle in an attempt to keep her anger in check to not freak out on Trixie. The bottle only ended up breaking and affecting others because of Trixie trying to take the bag away, actually. Not the same situation at all.

Twilight didn't mean to cause all of the Ponyville residents to fall in love with the doll. She didn't mean to make all the ponies fight for it either. She was crazy or naive to think only three fillies would be affected and they would listen to Twilight to stop the fight and learn a lesson from her. Her magic backfired. Starlight put her anger into a bottle. A person with a little sense would easily see how it would end up as soon as seeing that. She was generating and carrying dangerous substances. She was crazy or naive enough to put those angers somewhere else like a radiation active wast and never bring it back without being noticed, or without getting it leaked while her emotions and powers noticeably drained. Some might look passive or some might look active, but both are wrong choices. Being good means being able to make a right choice.

4 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

She was distraught and worrying she didn't have anything in common with her best friend anymore. She was trying to find a way for them to relate and have fun together again and she went way overboard trying to do that. It shows that yeah, she's still messed up a bit, but nopony even really got hurt by this incident and comparing it to the others is kind of silly, at worst Sunburst was kind of uncomfortable.

Most people or good people wouldn't react in that way.

4 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

I have a big issue with this idea of "People revealing their true nature under stress". Are you trying to say the only way to be a good person is to be good by nature? I can't really agree with that, and I think that would discount a lot of people's efforts to genuinely be better. Some people have issues with themselves they're going to struggle with for the rest of their life, especially a lot of people with things like mental illness. What if somebody has anger issues that won't go away, that they'll have to deal with for the rest of their life? Are they still a bad person no matter what, simply because they aren't "Good" by nature? If they still resort to anger at times when under great stress? Even if they try their best to control it, and make up for the wrong things they do when they slip up?

  I'd argue Starlight has changed, and is a better person because she's putting the effort in to be one. She tries to control herself, her efforts might be misguided at times, like with the bottle incident, but that was clearly an attempt to keep her anger in check, one she hasn't repeated since. While she banished Discord when under great stress, she fixed that mistake by apologizing and offering him the chance to help out the second time. Yes, she can still be selfish, yes, she can still be impulsive, but she tries not to be, and she tries to make up for it when she screws up. That's all a good person really can do in the end, try their best, make up for their mistakes, and learn their lessons as best as possible, even if they have to be learned multiple times.

I don't know how you got the idea that I might mean that the only way to be a good person is to be good by nature. I'm not saying that. It's quite the opposite because being good means making a right choice no matter what the circumstances are. And yes, being good is hard as hell. That's why there are very few. People should try to be better and that isn't easy. Not to disparage the effort, but if the person yet or never does good, then that person did not yet or never did a good thing. What inside a person's mind stays inside unless it's manifested. People with certain mental conditions, are neither good or bad because diseases are neutral. But it can be an obstacle towards doing good. Most importantly, good people would less likely to make an excuse or complain about the circumstance.

What I meant by "People revealing their true nature under stress" is (both as real life and as a storytelling) : If making a right choice is so easy, it wouldn't mean that much. If murder or theft are prevented by law and being punished, most people would stay good because it's easy. But what truly good is when it's a hard choice, and under hard circumstances. And under hard circumstances, people reveal their true nature. If there are tons of bread and they are all free, sharing wouldn't be hard and wouldn't mean that much. When there are barely no food, but if someone shares it, that's more noble. If you are broke or in deep sh*t, the people stand by you would be considered true friends, not the ones who left. Batman had to choose between Rachel and Harvey Dent. What he chose reveals what he is. That's what I meant by "people reveal their true nature under stress".

Instead of being selfish and being impulsive, and trying not to do it, I can't find a specific word to describe Starlight in a positive way. Sympathetic? No. Considerate? Friendly? Devoted? Generous? Positive? Humble? Kind? I don't know. There are actually two things to describe Starlight and those are Powerful and Reformed Villain. But those aren't a morality.

Starlight might be likable for some people, but she is not good. Good is hard.

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

50 minutes ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Maybe banishment by death. For a being that is transcend death, both would be equal, but still, that doesn't matter because she was really pissed off. I wouldn't deny Discord was being totally annoying and I would do that spell too. Doesn't mean that that's what a good person would do.

Starlight seemed to do so not just because of trying to protect the students, but mostly because of being triggered by the phrase 'Twilight decided to put an Incompetent power hungry unicorn in charge of the school' (which is annoying but quite true).

"Maybe banishment by death?" Are you trying to argue that Starlight was trying to kill him? Yeah, the spell looked violent I'll give you that, Spike and the students were clearly freaked out, but Starlight says it was a banishment spell and Discord doesn't show up later on complaining about her trying to kill him. I'm pretty sure if she had been attempting to murder him he would have been very, very vocal about it.

 Anyway, Starlight was already angry about him endangering and tormenting the students, she was about ready to kick him out before then, him insulting her like that was just what pushed her over the edge. Yes, she reacted in anger, no surprise there. It certainly wasn't the best choice, but I could see plenty of "Good people" still making it. Her next attempt to handle it was much better and clearly showed how understanding she can be when she's trying though, she likely had time to think over what the problem with Discord was much better once he wasn't tormenting her for a while.

56 minutes ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Twilight didn't mean to cause all of the Ponyville residents to fall in love with the doll. She didn't mean to make all the ponies fight for it either. She was crazy or naive to think only three fillies would be affected and they would listen to Twilight to stop the fight and learn a lesson from her. Her magic backfired. Starlight put her anger into a bottle. A person with a little sense would easily see how it would end up as soon as seeing that. She was generating and carrying dangerous substances. She was crazy or naive enough to put those angers somewhere else like a radiation active wast and never bring it back without being noticed, or without getting it leaked while her emotions and powers noticeably drained. Some might look passive or some might look active, but both are wrong choices. Being good means being able to make a right choice.

Exactly, neither was a good choice, but Twilight specifically still intended her spell to affect others, while Starlight was trying to use her magic to keep from affecting others. Both were not necessarily the best of ideas, but I'd honestly argue Twilight's situation is slightly worse, because whether she meant for the town to go crazy or not, she still purposely tried to mess with 3 fillies minds to cause a problem, just so she could solve it.

 Also, "Being Good means being able to make a right choice"? Starlight's made some good choices, she was the one who wanted to talk to Stygian and try to reason with him first, before anypony else was, her decision to swap the Princesses Cutie Marks was impulsive but ended up being exactly what they needed, she's the one who knocked some sense into Twilight to stand up for her school in School Daze, she ended up helping the Mane Six to see some of the good their journal did in "Fame and Misfortune". Hell, she was responsible for saving Equestria once in the Season 6 finale. How often does one have to make good choices to be good? What about situations where there is no right choice? Who's a good person then?

1 hour ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

Most people or good people wouldn't react in that way.

Who cares if most people wouldn't react that way?  Starlight's an individual. Like I said, it wasn't even really bad, the worst that it caused was kinda creeping out Sunburst a little. She was trying to rekindle the friendship with him she thought she was losing. Lot's of people in life sometimes react in ways that aren't "Normal" or might be a little uncomfortable for other people, even if they aren't harmful. That doesn't make them a bad person, it makes them an individual with character flaws, like basically everybody on the planet.

 

1 hour ago, Sepul-Coloratura said:

I don't know how you got the idea that I might mean that the only way to be a good person is to be good by nature. I'm not saying that. It's quite the opposite because being good means making a right choice no matter what the circumstances are. And yes, being good is hard as hell. That's why there are very few. People should try to be better and that isn't easy. Not to disparage the effort, but if the person yet or never does good, then that person did not yet or never did a good thing. What inside a person's mind stays inside unless it's manifested. People with certain mental conditions, are neither good or bad because diseases are neutral. But it can be an obstacle towards doing good. Most importantly, good people would less likely to make an excuse or complain about the circumstance.

What I meant by "People revealing their true nature under stress" is (both as real life and as a storytelling) : If making a right choice is so easy, it wouldn't mean that much. If murder or theft are prevented by law and being punished, most people would stay good because it's easy. But what truly good is when it's a hard choice, and under hard circumstances. And under hard circumstances, people reveal their true nature. If there are tons of bread and they are all free, sharing wouldn't be hard and wouldn't mean that much. When there are barely no food, but if someone shares it, that's more noble. If you are broke or in deep sh*t, the people stand by you would be considered true friends, not the ones who left. Batman had to choose between Rachel and Harvey Dent. What he chose reveals what he is. That's what I meant by "people reveal their true nature under stress".

Instead of being selfish and being impulsive, and trying not to do it, I can't find a specific word to describe Starlight in a positive way. Sympathetic? No. Considerate? Friendly? Devoted? Generous? Positive? Humble? Kind? I don't know. There are actually two things to describe Starlight and those are Powerful and Reformed Villain. But those aren't a morality.

Starlight might be likable for some people, but she is not good. Good is hard.

At this point, I think you and I just have very different definitions of what constitutes a "Good person". As you define it "Being good means making a right choice no matter what the circumstances are", which to me just sounds like an outright impossible standard. Nobody in real life could be a good person with that definition, because always making the right choice is impossible. By the way you've defined it, I honestly think none of the main characters in this show would really be good people. To me a good person is somebody who tries to be good, who tries to be better than they were before, who tries to make up for their mistakes and wrong decisions when they make them, because they're going to make them. A good person can still sometimes be greedy, or selfish, or manipulative, or angry, because that's how people are, and you don't have to always be perfect to be good.

 Personally, I find Starlight to be very, very sympathetic. She's somepony trying to be good and actually struggling with it, she wants to be better but as we've seen it obviously doesn't come easy to her. She's trying to work out her issues but it's a long process and involves a lot of slip-ups and she's a very flawed person, but she's trying and she's making it slowly but surely. She's compassionate, she was willing to offer Chrysalis the same second chance she was given, she was willing to give Trixie a second chance as her friend and was willing to forgive Discord too in "Matter of Principals", she was the first one who wanted to try to talk to the Pony of Shadows. I'd say she's been pretty friendly too since she was reformed, Maud and Trixie sure think so, and those two are the kind of ponies who can probably be pretty hard to be friends with at times, since Maud probably comes across as pretty dull most of the time and Trixie is...well, Trixie.

 Good is hard, you're right. It's hard enough that you can't always succeed at it. The measure of a good person, I think, is how hard you keep trying at it anyway.

 

[Kenshin's girl 13]

On 1/11/2019 at 3:04 PM, BasementSparkle said:

"Maybe banishment by death?" Are you trying to argue that Starlight was trying to kill him? Yeah, the spell looked violent I'll give you that, Spike and the students were clearly freaked out, but Starlight says it was a banishment spell and Discord doesn't show up later on complaining about her trying to kill him. I'm pretty sure if she had been attempting to murder him he would have been very, very vocal about it.

 Anyway, Starlight was already angry about him endangering and tormenting the students, she was about ready to kick him out before then, him insulting her like that was just what pushed her over the edge. Yes, she reacted in anger, no surprise there. It certainly wasn't the best choice, but I could see plenty of "Good people" still making it. Her next attempt to handle it was much better and clearly showed how understanding she can be when she's trying though, she likely had time to think over what the problem with Discord was much better once he wasn't tormenting her for a while.

Exactly, neither was a good choice, but Twilight specifically still intended her spell to affect others, while Starlight was trying to use her magic to keep from affecting others. Both were not necessarily the best of ideas, but I'd honestly argue Twilight's situation is slightly worse, because whether she meant for the town to go crazy or not, she still purposely tried to mess with 3 fillies minds to cause a problem, just so she could solve it.

 Also, "Being Good means being able to make a right choice"? Starlight's made some good choices, she was the one who wanted to talk to Stygian and try to reason with him first, before anypony else was, her decision to swap the Princesses Cutie Marks was impulsive but ended up being exactly what they needed, she's the one who knocked some sense into Twilight to stand up for her school in School Daze, she ended up helping the Mane Six to see some of the good their journal did in "Fame and Misfortune". Hell, she was responsible for saving Equestria once in the Season 6 finale. How often does one have to make good choices to be good? What about situations where there is no right choice? Who's a good person then?

Who cares if most people wouldn't react that way?  Starlight's an individual. Like I said, it wasn't even really bad, the worst that it caused was kinda creeping out Sunburst a little. She was trying to rekindle the friendship with him she thought she was losing. Lot's of people in life sometimes react in ways that aren't "Normal" or might be a little uncomfortable for other people, even if they aren't harmful. That doesn't make them a bad person, it makes them an individual with character flaws, like basically everybody on the planet.

 

At this point, I think you and I just have very different definitions of what constitutes a "Good person". As you define it "Being good means making a right choice no matter what the circumstances are", which to me just sounds like an outright impossible standard. Nobody in real life could be a good person with that definition, because always making the right choice is impossible. By the way you've defined it, I honestly think none of the main characters in this show would really be good people. To me a good person is somebody who tries to be good, who tries to be better than they were before, who tries to make up for their mistakes and wrong decisions when they make them, because they're going to make them. A good person can still sometimes be greedy, or selfish, or manipulative, or angry, because that's how people are, and you don't have to always be perfect to be good.

 Personally, I find Starlight to be very, very sympathetic. She's somepony trying to be good and actually struggling with it, she wants to be better but as we've seen it obviously doesn't come easy to her. She's trying to work out her issues but it's a long process and involves a lot of slip-ups and she's a very flawed person, but she's trying and she's making it slowly but surely. She's compassionate, she was willing to offer Chrysalis the same second chance she was given, she was willing to give Trixie a second chance as her friend and was willing to forgive Discord too in "Matter of Principals", she was the first one who wanted to try to talk to the Pony of Shadows. I'd say she's been pretty friendly too since she was reformed, Maud and Trixie sure think so, and those two are the kind of ponies who can probably be pretty hard to be friends with at times, since Maud probably comes across as pretty dull most of the time and Trixie is...well, Trixie.

 Good is hard, you're right. It's hard enough that you can't always succeed at it. The measure of a good person, I think, is how hard you keep trying at it anyway.

 

Starlight is very sympathetic indeed.  She has lots of flaws, that's why she's my favorite pony.

[Guest]

I think people misinterpret poorly socially conditioned to mean bad. She is not a bad person/pony, she just clearly lacks social conditioning to know when she steps out of line. Consider that she has been an outcast for most of her life. A lot of the things she does with negative impacts come from a place of wanting to help and thinking she’s doing something in the best interest of others even if they protest at first.

Selling Trixie’s wagon for example; Trixie and she were miserable in that tiny wagon. She saw an opportunity to trade for a larger more valuable one and felt Trixie was being too stubborn and thought she was doing something that Trixie would learn she should have done herself in the long run. Sentimental value didn’t occur to Starlight because of her poor conditioning.

It wasn’t an act of malice, but one where she legitimately felt she was doing something that her friend would appreciate in the long term. Sometimes people will be mad at you initially for trying to do something that is in their best interests.

[StarTrixFunTimes 1]

Absolutely! She's definitely not perfect, a little rough around the edges, but she tries her best and I love her very much!

[lua 105]

Well although I do think reforming her was rushed out quickly, that's not entirely uncommon for mlp (Discord being a good example in my opinion) but now after her character has developed more. I think having her in the show is fine, and I think shes one of the funniest characters on the show (again in my opinion)

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Jakeduhcreeper